Government Buildings? What are ye at?

goldie fish

Firstly, I must say I have always supported the Gardai, and defended them to my colleagues when uninformed criticisms were made.

However I am scratching my head lately with some of the decisions made by Gardai on duty outside Government buildings and Leinster House. Overkill seems to be the main method of policing.

I'm not referring to any slaps that were dished out to people trying to trespass etc. That is fine, though to the average joe, they think it is garda brutality, and the Garda PR machine is not working hard enough to give the Garda side.

But I cannot understand why, when someone makes a protest outside Leinster house, Huge teams of gardai arrive with lights and sirens to
(a) arrest 1 man for presumably s4 Public order
(b) remove all banners and posters from whatever structure he is using as soon as possible after his arrest.

I cannot think of any legislation that requires a member of AGS to remove any banner or slogan from public view immediately.
Back in the 90s, the Anti Abortion crowd used to protest outside Michael Noonan's clinic in limerick, and their posters were as obscene as any, and the direction we had from on high was that we could not remove any poster, unless we had a complaint in writing from a member of the public who was offended by these posters.

I don't want to discuss further the Hoist user above, as his case is still going through the courts obviously. But in a broader sense, is there new legislation to remove any criticism of government from government buildings before the ministers wake up in the morning?

congo_90

ive had s4 quoted at me before under the po act. what exactly is section 4 covering? seems to be a generic quote

Hooch

goldie fish wrote: »

*SNIP*
However I am scratching my head lately with some of the decisions made by Gardai on duty outside Government buildings and Leinster House. Overkill seems to be the main method of policing.

*SNIP*

But I cannot understand why, when someone makes a protest outside Leinster house, Huge teams of gardai arrive with lights and sirens to
(a) arrest 1 man for presumably s4 Public order
(b) remove all banners and posters from whatever structure he is using as soon as possible after his arrest.

Any public protest outside the seat of government gets a large response. A seemingly small incident all too often becomes a large scale incident. Any Garda will tell you that.

goldie fish wrote: »

I cannot think of any legislation that requires a member of AGS to remove any banner or slogan from public view immediately.
Back in the 90s, the Anti Abortion crowd used to protest outside Michael Noonan's clinic in limerick, and their posters were as obscene as any, and the direction we had from on high was that we could not remove any poster, unless we had a complaint in writing from a member of the public who was offended by these posters.

Incitement to Hatred Act 1989

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1989/en/act/pub/0019/index.html

Hooch

congo_90 wrote: »

ive had s4 quoted at me before under the po act. what exactly is section 4 covering? seems to be a generic quote

Section 4, Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act.

Intoxication in a public place where you are a danger to yourself or others.

goldie fish

nice guy always wrote: »

Incitement to Hatred Act 1989

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1989/en/act/pub/0019/index.html

But isn't that act more for inciting hate against other races, creeds, genders etc rather than protesting against government policy? Was anything on the builders poster designed "to stir up hatred".
Maybe I missed it, but I don't see a power of arrest either for having such items on display.

No offence but you seem to be clutching at straws.

No mention of that act here:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1208/1224285027624.html

Mr McNamara, a former property developer, was taken to Dublin District Court yesterday morning where he was charged with dangerous driving.

Dangerous driving of a Parked Cherrypicker?

It's embarassing.

eroo

goldie fish wrote: »

Dangerous driving of a Parked Cherrypicker?

It's embarassing.

No it isn't.

Sec.53 RTA

''A person shall not drive a vehicle in a public place in a manner(including speed) which, having regard to all the circumstances of the case(including the conditions of the vehicle, the nature, condition and use of the place and the amount of traffic which then actually is or might reasonably be expected then to be therein) is dangerous to the public.''

goldie fish

But I know this is a minor detail, and maybe things have changed since I was in templemore, but don't you need to be driving a vehicle to be guilty of dangerous driving.

goldie fish

goldie fish wrote: »

Dangerous driving of a Parked Cherrypicker?

It's embarassing.

As the matter is before the courts you will not get an answer from any member on this forum. Everything will come out once it goes to hearing.

stop

I'd agree that he should have been arrested for parking it there.
I'm not so sure about AGS tearing down the posters though - really don't see any reason for that one.

goldie fish

foreign wrote: »

As the matter is before the courts you will not get an answer from any member on this forum. Everything will come out once it goes to hearing.

In a hypothetical situsation even?

What about the posters?

LostinBlanch

stop wrote: »

I'd agree that he should have been arrested for parking it there.
I'm not so sure about AGS tearing down the posters though - really don't see any reason for that one.

There is, it's getting harder and harder not to believe that it was a political decision, and the gardai are using catch all legislation after the fact as a justification for taking down anti government posters immediately.

Does anyone seriously think that they would have torn down pro FF posters? No? I didn't think so.

Add to this the fact that two gardai were stationed outside FF hq. It is looking more and more like the policing arm of FF rather than serving the state.

I'm not aiming this at individuals on here, more at the gardai in general. But surely they see that with all the problems coming down the road that they are going to have to be seen to serve citizens of the state rather than a political party.

cushtac

LostinBlanch wrote: »

I'm not aiming this at individuals on here, more at the gardai in general. But surely they see that with all the problems coming down the road that they are going to have to be seen to serve citizens of the state rather than a political party.

Gardaí are out serving the citizens of the state every day of the week, all over the country.

LostinBlanch

cushtac wrote: »

Gardaí are out serving the citizens of the state every day of the week, all over the country.

Sure, but I'm sure there were plenty of their Romanian counterparts in 1989 who said the same thing.

Better to be real police than securitate eh?

EDIT: The above may not apply 100% right now, but when faced with the choice what will you do?

eroo

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Sure, but I'm sure there were plenty of their Romanian counterparts in 1989 who said the same thing.

Better to be real police than securitate eh?

EDIT: The above may not apply 100% right now, but when faced with the choice what will you do?

An Garda Siochana is the main branch of the State's security forces. Thererfore they must ensure the security of the State. The Government are elected by the majority to run the State, so Gardai are serving the people by ensuring the Government is not attacked/overthrown. AGS, like the Defence Forces, serve the State and as such, will not turn against it.

You are comparing this current situation to a revolution against a totalitarian President. Whether they like it or not, the people elected this current Government. Rather than lashing out at Gardai who are enforcing the law(as they swore to do), they should save their anger for polling day in 2011.

MagicSean

goldie fish wrote: »

But I know this is a minor detail, and maybe things have changed since I was in templemore, but don't you need to be driving a vehicle to be guilty of dangerous driving.

The legislation requires the vehicle to be driven. I've no idea what the facts are in the case. All I know is vehicles don't fall from the sky and generally must be driven from one place to another.

LostinBlanch wrote: »

There is, it's getting harder and harder not to believe that it was a political decision, and the gardai are using catch all legislation after the fact as a justification for taking down anti government posters immediately.

Does anyone seriously think that they would have torn down pro FF posters? No? I didn't think so.

Add to this the fact that two gardai were stationed outside FF hq. It is looking more and more like the policing arm of FF rather than serving the state.

I'm not aiming this at individuals on here, more at the gardai in general. But surely they see that with all the problems coming down the road that they are going to have to be seen to serve citizens of the state rather than a political party.

The Gardaí are stationed where trouble is likely. It's not hard to understand. If someone receives a threat it wouldn't be great policing to go and guard a random neighbour instead of the person who was threatened.

congo_90 wrote: »

ive had s4 quoted at me before under the po act. what exactly is section 4 covering? seems to be a generic quote

Where you drunk?


In regards to the legislation for removing the signs. I'm gonna go with the litter pollution act

LostinBlanch

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Add to this the fact that two gardai were stationed outside FF hq. It is looking more and more like the policing arm of FF rather than serving the state.

Maybe that has to do with the offices of FF TD's being attacked recently? If FG offices were being attacked would there be a post on FG HQ? You bet there would be.

cushtac

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Sure, but I'm sure there were plenty of their Romanian counterparts in 1989 who said the same thing.

Better to be real police than securitate eh?

EDIT: The above may not apply 100% right now, but when faced with the choice what will you do?

I'm actually surprised you didn't compare Gardaí to the SS :rolleyes:

Comparing the state and the Gardaí to that of Communist Romania, or any other totalitarian state, is idiotic and shows a complete lack of understanding of policing on your part.

dfbemt

eroo wrote: »

Thererfore they must ensure the security of the State.

AGS, like the Defence Forces, serve the State and as such, will not turn against it.

But what happened in 1998 with the 'Blue Flu'?

Didn't this then escalate when the GRA further stated that Gardai would not issue speeding and parking tickets until they got what they wanted from the State?

eroo

dfbemt wrote: »

But what happened in 1998 with the 'Blue Flu'?

Didn't this then escalate when the GRA further stated that Gardai would not issue speeding and parking tickets until they got what they wanted from the State?

That was 12 years ago. It wasn't exactly a revolution either.

LostinBlanch

eroo wrote: »

An Garda Siochana is the main branch of the State's security forces. Thererfore they must ensure the security of the State.

You're not honestly expecting anyone to believe that tearing down anti FF posters is a matter of state security are you?

eroo wrote: »

You are comparing this current situation to a revolution against a totalitarian President. Whether they like it or not, the people elected this current Government. Rather than lashing out at Gardai who are enforcing the law(as they swore to do), they should save their anger for polling day in 2011.

I had more in mind the parallels between a regime that lost any legitimacy it had in the eyes majority of the people but still desperately clings to power and the final days of Ceaucescu's Romania pre the revolution. As for the polling day, don't worry

I also said we're not there yet (and I hope we don't ever get there) but the way things are going we're heading in that direction IMO. So I ask the rhetorical question is there a point beyond which you won't go in supporting the current regime, and if so have you clarified exactly what that is? I realise that everyone will have different answers to the above and that there are certain things you can't say in public so that's why the question is rhetorical.

k_mac wrote:

The Gardaí are stationed where trouble is likely. It's not hard to understand. If someone receives a threat it wouldn't be great policing to go and guard a random neighbour instead of the person who was threatened.

Thanks k_mac that makes sense.

cushtac wrote:

I'm actually surprised you didn't compare Gardaí to the SS

But why woud I do that? I came on here to engage in discussion on a particular point, not to call gardai ss. You may not like the questions I'm asking, or disagree with the points I make, but backhanded swipes like that won't make them go away.

cushtac wrote:

Comparing the state and the Gardaí to that of Communist Romania, or any other totalitarian state, is idiotic and shows a complete lack of understanding of policing on your part.

I can see you've taken offence at the analogy I've used which wasn't my intention, but I have outlined my reasons for that above. So I don't think there is a need to be defensive. Of course I could be misreading the tone of your answer, and if I have apologies.

As for a lack of understanding of policing, I'm one of the majority of people who don't deal with the gardai on a daily basis. So why would we be expected to have a complete understanding of policing, when what it involves isn't communicated to us effectively? This forum not included.

Anyway, I've said what I wanted to say on here. So good luck.

Mr Jinx

dfbemt wrote: »

But what happened in 1998 with the 'Blue Flu'?


Didn't this then escalate when the GRA further stated that Gardai would not issue speeding and parking tickets until they got what they wanted from the State?

People think that all Gardai called in sick on "Blue Flu" day. This wasnt the case, there was plenty of cover provided and as far as I recall the Gardai foiled an armed robbery in Co Wicklow that day.


Speeding and Parking tickets are issued at the discretion of individual Gardai, can honestly say I have never issued a speeding ticket myself anyway!

ted1

the individual involved in the incident was out on bail and was in breach of bail. He is the same property developer who owes anglo 3.5 million and drove a cement truck in to the gates of leinster house.

goldie fish

ted1 wrote: »

the individual involved in the incident was out on bail and was in breach of bail. He is the same property developer who owes anglo 3.5 million and drove a cement truck to the gates of leinster house.

Fixed.

Is everyone who is in breach of bail arrested so quickly? I think you'll find not.

cushtac

goldie fish wrote: »

Fixed.'

He hit the gates.

goldie fish wrote: »

Is everyone who is in breach of bail arrested so quickly? I think you'll find not.

They are if they're caught doing something stupid like he was.

eroo

LostinBlanch wrote: »

You're not honestly expecting anyone to believe that tearing down anti FF posters is a matter of state security are you?

So I ask the rhetorical question is there a point beyond which you won't go in supporting the current regime, and if so have you clarified exactly what that is?


As for a lack of understanding of policing, I'm one of the majority of people who don't deal with the gardai on a daily basis. So why would we be expected to have a complete understanding of policing, when what it involves isn't communicated to us effectively? This forum not included.

The posters were probably removed because the protesters did not have permission to put them up. But I'm not sure tbh.

It's not a regime, it's a democratically elected Govt. Gardai don't have to support the Govt's policies etc, but they do have to uphold the law.

That is exactly the point.. people slate the Gardai as 'Shells police' 'Fianna Fails police' etc, yet as you admit they have no understanding of policing.

LeixlipRed

Not one convincing argument or reason for the posters being removed has been given in this thread.

MagicSean

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Not one convincing argument or reason for the posters being removed has been given in this thread.

You don't need a reason to put rubbish in the bin.

Locust

Are we talking about the posters or the placards with the sticks? Cause obviously angry protesters will use placard sticks as weapons - look at the troublemakers swinging them at police at the student protests in London last night.

Posters? I don't know perhaps they were directed to remove them for safety/security reasons as they could be obstructing the view/vision of other members of Gardai there, and i don't mean the guards in high viz at the gates - they aren't the only Gardai present. The rubbish/litter argument is also a convincing one.

stop

k_mac wrote: »

In regards to the legislation for removing the signs. I'm gonna go with the litter pollution act

Paddypower.com posters were attached to half the lampposts on Merrion West when I walked it on Monday night, the posters were in election style, but offering odds on next Taoiseach etc. These posters were in full view of the AGS members stationed outside DOF & DOtT, but they were not removed. One rule for some, one for another?

Cavehill Red

cushtac wrote: »

I'm actually surprised you didn't compare Gardaí to the SS :rolleyes:

Comparing the state and the Gardaí to that of Communist Romania, or any other totalitarian state, is idiotic and shows a complete lack of understanding of policing on your part.

How about I compare them to the PSNI then?
The RUC was a demonstrably skewed and corrupt entity. It took a major overhaul, still ongoing, to transform it into anything like a proper modern police force.
The Gardai are also a demonstrably skewed and corrupt entity. Donegal and Abbeylara being only two examples. Recent scenes of overkill at protests evoke the old Robocop image from a few years ago and demonstrate that the Gardai are also in desperate need of a radical overhaul to become the sort of police force the PSNI now are.

Victor

Locust wrote: »

Are we talking about the posters or the placards with the sticks?

No, posters attached to a cherry picker.

Posters? I don't know perhaps they were directed to remove them for safety/security reasons as they could be obstructing the view/vision of other members of Gardai there, and i don't mean the guards in high viz at the gates - they aren't the only Gardai present.

Hardly. I doubt they occupy the reading room of the National Library.

The rubbish/litter argument is also a convincing one.

You don't know what posters people are talking about but still use the word "convincing"?

MagicSean

stop wrote: »

Paddypower.com posters were attached to half the lampposts on Merrion West when I walked it on Monday night, the posters were in election style, but offering odds on next Taoiseach etc. These posters were in full view of the AGS members stationed outside DOF & DOtT, but they were not removed. One rule for some, one for another?

Did they have permission to put them up? Basically the posters were rubbish so there was nothing to prevent the Gardaí taking them down. Why would they take down the political ones and not the paddy power ones? Maybe because paddy power employees haven't been abusing and assaulting them.

Victor

k_mac wrote: »

Did they have permission to put them up? Basically the posters were rubbish so there was nothing to prevent the Gardaí taking them down. Why would they take down the political ones and not the paddy power ones? Maybe because paddy power employees haven't been abusing and assaulting them.

Did you bother to read the thread?

cushtac

Cavehill Red wrote: »

How about I compare them to the PSNI then?
The RUC was a demonstrably skewed and corrupt entity. It took a major overhaul, still ongoing, to transform it into anything like a proper modern police force.

The Gardaí are nothing like the RUC/PSNI. The RUC was a force that spent the majority of it's time dealing with a terrorist threat as opposed to an 'ordinary' criminal threat & had to alter some of it's outlook to cope. It also had to drastically alter it's recruitment process to appeal to the Catholic minority.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

The Gardai are also a demonstrably skewed and corrupt entity. Donegal and Abbeylara being only two examples. Recent scenes of overkill at protests evoke the old Robocop image from a few years ago and demonstrate that the Gardai are also in desperate need of a radical overhaul to become the sort of police force the PSNI now are.

Donegal - the last resort of those who've a problem with the Gardaí :rolleyes:

If the Gardaí were as corrupt and skewed as you seem to think there are then why is GSOC not investigating numerous instances of corruption? Abbeylara also had nothing to do with corruption, and it is worth noting that every foreign police expert brought in to look at the incident said that Carthy would have been shot far sooner by their force than he had been by Gardaí.

Your claims or overkill at recent protests are your own opinion, I'd say they were disciplined & measured responses to illegal acts of violence and trespass. Either way they'll be investigated by GSOC & we'll see then, but I don't think the Gardaí involved have much to fear.

I doubt very much the PSNI would have reacted any differently to situations you're giving out about.

Victor

Photos: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1207/crane_protest.html

Note that it is Kildare Street, not Government Buildings (Merrion Street).

Cavehill Red

cushtac wrote: »

The Gardaí are nothing like the RUC/PSNI.

We can agree there. One is a credible modern police force. The other is the Gardai.

cushtac wrote: »

Donegal - the last resort of those who've a problem with the Gardaí :rolleyes:

You know, I'd love to see an independent investigation into Garda behaviour in 25 other counties too. God only knows what would come to the surface.

cushtac wrote: »

If the Gardaí were as corrupt and skewed as you seem to think there are then why is GSOC not investigating numerous instances of corruption?

I had reason to contact the ombudsman once. I called their office and asked for the forms to be sent out. Strangely, I was contacted by not the ombudsman but the Gardai two days later, offering to resolve my problem. At that point I came to the conclusion that the ombudsman is not an impartial judge of Garda behaviour. I suspect many others think likewise.

cushtac wrote: »

Abbeylara also had nothing to do with corruption

No, it goes to overkill, literally in this case.

cushtac wrote: »

Your claims or overkill at recent protests are your own opinion, I'd say they were disciplined & measured responses to illegal acts of violence and trespass.

Well, of course you would.

cushtac wrote: »

Either way they'll be investigated by GSOC & we'll see then, but I don't think the Gardaí involved have much to fear.

I don't either. Because the Gardai never have anything to fear from the GSOC.

cushtac wrote: »

I doubt very much the PSNI would have reacted any differently to situations you're giving out about.

Drumcree says otherwise. Restraint shown in almost impossible circumstances of much greater threat than a few students protesting legitimately at Dail Eireann.

MagicSean

Victor wrote: »

Did you bother to read the thread?

Yes. Did you have a point or are you asking random questions?

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I had reason to contact the ombudsman once. I called their office and asked for the forms to be sent out. Strangely, I was contacted by not the ombudsman but the Gardai two days later, offering to resolve my problem. At that point I came to the conclusion that the ombudsman is not an impartial judge of Garda behaviour. I suspect many others think likewise.

Everyone who makes a complaint is given the option of local intervention first. This is hardly unusual. If you are arrested for petty theft you are not brought straight to the Supreme Court.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Well, of course you would.

Ditto. You've made you feelings towards all Gardaí clear.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I don't either. Because the Gardai never have anything to fear from the GSOC.

Just because someone doesn't have a criminal record it doesn't mean they have been getting away with everything. It might just be that they didn't do anything wrong. Anyway there have been plenty of Gardaí brought to court following GSOC investigations.

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Drumcree says otherwise. Restraint shown in almost impossible circumstances of much greater threat than a few students protesting legitimately at Dail Eireann.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/archives/2005/0821/ireland/psni-under-fire-for-old-firm-riot-handling-217118.html

The PSNI allowed locals to be terrorised rather than get involved. Is that really the kind of police force you want? Look at the recent "protests" over in London. Massive amounts of damage done by "protesters" while the police exercised their restraint. It's disgraceful. There are plenty of protests that go off without any trouble. When a group start to damage property they give up their right to protest and it's only right they be dispersed as efficiently as possible so that the real innocents shouldn't have to suffer.

LeixlipRed

Locust wrote: »

Posters? I don't know perhaps they were directed to remove them for safety/security reasons as they could be obstructing the view/vision of other members of Gardai there, and i don't mean the guards in high viz at the gates - they aren't the only Gardai present. The rubbish/litter argument is also a convincing one.

I actually laughed out loud when I read that. How embarrassing for you all.

Victor

k_mac wrote: »

Yes. Did you have a point or are you asking random questions?

It was a rather pointed question.

The protest involved one protestor in a cherry picker. The posters were attach to the cherry picker, they were private property, were not littering the area. There was no assault.

This suggests you did not read the thread, but were mouthing of on something you didn't know about..

MagicSean

Victor wrote: »

It was a rather pointed question.

The protest involved one protestor in a cherry picker. The posters were attach to the cherry picker, they were private property, were not littering the area. There was no assault.

This suggests you did not read the thread, but were mouthing of on something you didn't know about..

A cherry picker driven by the same person who reportedly almost knocked down a Garda on his last outing?

stop

k_mac wrote: »

Maybe because paddy power employees haven't been abusing and assaulting them.

So it's ok for some people to break the law, as long as they don't annoy AGS while they do it?

Cavehill Red

k_mac wrote: »

Everyone who makes a complaint is given the option of local intervention first. This is hardly unusual. If you are arrested for petty theft you are not brought straight to the Supreme Court.

But that's not what I said. I didn't contact the Gardai about my issue. I wrote to the GSOC to ask for the complaint form, and was contacted by the Garda station I intended to complain about, even though I hadn't at that point made a complaint. That tells me someone in the GSOC is conveying all communication direct to AGS.

k_mac wrote: »

Just because someone doesn't have a criminal record it doesn't mean they have been getting away with everything. It might just be that they didn't do anything wrong. Anyway there have been plenty of Gardaí brought to court following GSOC investigations.

The Donegal precedent suggests otherwise. What does AGS have to hide from a genuinely objective assessment by international outsiders?

k_mac wrote: »

The PSNI allowed locals to be terrorised rather than get involved. Is that really the kind of police force you want? Look at the recent "protests" over in London. Massive amounts of damage done by "protesters" while the police exercised their restraint. It's disgraceful. There are plenty of protests that go off without any trouble. When a group start to damage property they give up their right to protest and it's only right they be dispersed as efficiently as possible so that the real innocents shouldn't have to suffer.

The PSNI have a significantly more fraught set of circumstances to deal with on a regular basis than AGS ever has to deal with. Annual contentious parades, sectarian interfaces, large numbers of paramilitaries. Yet they do so effectively and professionally, realising that there is a priority to protect humans before property on the rare occasion the two clash.
You seem to espouse the Robocop tactics of weighing into a group of protesters with the nightsticks. It's that very attitude among AGS, along with other attitudes, such as a profound laziness towards investigating burglaries or vandalism and an inability to respond to non-emergency situations in a timely fashion, that I object to.

cushtac

I think you object to the Gardaí, full stop.

Morris doesn't condemn enough Gardaí for your liking so you start going on about inquiries into the rest of the country, even though there's no indication that corruption is widespread. GSOC hasn't prosecuted enough Gardaí to satisfy you so you imply it's somehow in collusion with the Gardaí and go on about the need for international oversight. You're just never going to be satisfied with the Gardaí so there's no point in arguing with you.

I'm giving up on this forum, there's too many armchair experts & anti-Garda types just looking to provoke an argument.

Shield

Everyone is allowed their opinion, and it's clear where most people stand.

I'm not going to stand by and let this thread or the forum lose integrity to armchair experts who seem to view themselves as a font of policing wisdom without ever having walked a beat.

This forum does not tolerate anti-Garda propaganda, so those of you who are opposed to the organisation for whatever reason, please just stay away from this forum.

Thread closed.

cushtac wrote: »

I'm giving up on this forum, there's too many armchair experts & anti-Garda types just looking to provoke an argument.