If FG policies are so similar to those of FF, why would people vote for FG?

andrewire

Well? If people want some significant change in the way Ireland is managed by the political elite, then why would voters vote for another party with the same view of things? Even Enda Kenny has been criticised for his apparent lack of leadership and 'screen persona' when giving live interviews, which reminds me of Brian Cowen, although the latter is utterly despicable.

We need leadership and people that can handle the pressure of the economy and social problems we have inherited from FF's decades of mismanagement. If Enda Kenny becomes Taoiseach, we are f'ed: we certainly don't need a teleprompter leadership, we need someone with courage and able to restore confidence in our nation.

AlmightyCushion

They'd vote for them because they're not Fianna Fáil.

High energy

Because they don't have a history of lies, corruption and downright thievery.

arid

This kind of thinking is why FF keep getting back in.

Biggins

I wouldn't. They are two sides of the same damn coin!
Utterly in their positions for self gain and bought by big businesses!

...And both headed by useless plebs!

Mark200

Eh Enda Kenny supposedly not having charisma has nothing to do with policies. You described nothing about policies in your post.

FG have excellent policies to deal with the current situation. It irritates me a lot that whenever FG are mentioned, a lot of people can't see past Enda Kenny's lack of charisma. So yeah, lets go with sound-byte Gilmore instead.

TanG411

For change.

RMD

High energy wrote: »

Because they don't have a history of lies, corruption and downright thievery.

You sure about that?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/youll-get-nothing-when-were-in-power-fine-gael-td-tells-garda-2343743.html

Earthhorse

Because the party in power is always more corrupt than the party out of powere. Vote in any new party, even an identikit one, and you wipe away over a decade of favours and cosy arrangements in one go.

The_Kew_Tour

FF & FG are both same just would be seeing different faces on TV.

And then you have Labour, Joan Burton sweet jesus imagine having her as minister?

Sinn Fein no thanks

mikemac

Bertie was a master at the live interviews, did the entire Brian Dobson one in one take. There are actors who couldn't do that.
Good at debates too
Are these the skills people vote for above all else?

I could care less about Enda Kenny's ability with the media or charisma, it's the policies I'm interested in

Mark200

RMD wrote: »

You sure about that?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/youll-get-nothing-when-were-in-power-fine-gael-td-tells-garda-2343743.html

What has that got to do with corruption, lies or thievery? That's just one retarded drunk TD

bonerm

I'm convinced UK Labour or the Tories could come over here and win an election, such is the uselessness of our traditional options. As things stand all Irish people have to vote for is the evil of two lessers.

Monty Burnz

RMD wrote: »

You sure about that?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/youll-get-nothing-when-were-in-power-fine-gael-td-tells-garda-2343743.html

FG aren't squeaky clean, but for every one of those you will find, I can supply you with 20 Fianna Failures worse. And when a FG TD is found to be corrupt, he gets booted out (Lowry - who has been voting with FF since), whereas FF take their most corrupt guy and put him in charge of the party for a decade.

Yeah, Inda is not charismatic at all - the charisma of a potato. But I'll take a competent, honest, good organiser over a corrupt bull****ter like Bertie Ahern, so beloved of the Irish electorate for decade. How did that work out, folks?

The_Kew_Tour

feelingstressed wrote: »

Bertie was a master at the live interviews, did the entire Brian Dobson one in one take. There are actors who couldn't do that.
Good at debates too
Are these the skills people vote for above all else?

I could care less about Enda Kenny's ability with the media or charisma, it's the policies I'm interested in

From my years its seems to have been filling Potholes rather then Policies that got you elected.

Absurdum

Yes we can!

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Mark200 wrote: »

What has that got to do with corruption, lies or thievery? That's just one retarded drunk TD

Who was threatening to be involved in corruption. Its not hard to figure out.

RMD

Mark200 wrote: »

What has that got to do with corruption, lies or thievery? That's just one retarded drunk TD

Using your power and / or position to threaten a person I'd consider corruption.

Monty Burnz wrote: »

FG aren't squeaky clean, but for every one of those you will find, I can supply you with 20 Fianna Failures worse. And when a FG TD is found to be corrupt, he gets booted out (Lowry - who has been voting with FF since), whereas FF take their most corrupt guy and put him in charge of the party for a decade.

Yeah, Inda is not charismatic at all - the charisma of a potato. But I'll take a competent, honest, good organiser over a corrupt bull****ter like Bertie Ahern, so beloved of the Irish electorate for decade. How did that work out, folks?

FG aren't squeaky clean yes, but they do have a much better track record than FF. I'm not a FF fanboy, I just hate when people talk crap like that. FF are the scum of the earth and certainly wont be getting my vote.

It's a sad reflection of Irish politics when there's only 2-3 parties to effectively choose from, and not one of them appeals that much at all.

Mark200

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Who was threatening to be involved in corruption. Its not hard to figure out.

So he wasn't corrupt. Right. Really... trying to compare that to FF's antics is really weird.

MagicMarker

Biggins wrote: »

I wouldn't. They are two sides of the same damn coin!
Utterly in their positions for self gain and bought by big businesses!

...And both headed by useless plebs!

The same can be said of all parties.

Ulysses Gaze

andrewire wrote: »

We need leadership and people that can handle the pressure of the economy and social problems we have inherited from FF's decades of mismanagement. If Enda Kenny becomes Taoiseach, we are f'ed: we certainly don't need a teleprompter leadership, we need someone with courage and able to restore confidence in our nation.

Lol. Why are we f'ed if Kenny takes charge. Please elaborate?

Because he doesn't have the gurrier "Man of the People" BS persona that Ahern had?

Listen, FG have far more capable people surrounding Kenny than FF have now or had under Ahern. I don't really give a toss if Kenny has the personality of a robot. It means nowt to me as long as he gets the job done.

The last thing we need is an Ahern-type "Cult of Personality".

Bertie was a master at the live interviews, did the entire Brian Dobson one in one take. Good at debates too. Are these the skills people vote for above all else?

I'd respectfully disagree with this. Ahern was great at glib soundbites and cosseted interviews (like Dobsons or Tubridy's).

Noonan took Ahern apart in the leadership debate back in 2002. Didn't matter in the end, but he tied Ahern up in knots. I was waiting for Ahern's inner gurrier to explode out.

Aldebaran

I kind of like the way Fine Gael and Labour haven't destroyed the country.

But that's just me.

CoalBucket

High energy wrote: »

Because they don't have a history of lies, corruption and downright thievery.

ehh Michael Lowry

Nothing in comparison to FF but a history of corruption all the same and should not be ignored.

Biggins

MagicMarker wrote: »

The same can be said of all parties.

Maybe - but so far (and I am NOT a supporter) Labour have yet to be caught soliciting companies, bankers, and builders on race tracks, golf courses and wining and dining them consistently!

Mark200

Biggins wrote: »

Maybe - but so far (and I am NOT a supporter) Labour have yet to be caught soliciting companies, bankers, and builders on race tracks, golf courses and wining and dining them consistently!

That's because they prefer the unions.

Monty Burnz

CoalBucket wrote: »

ehh Michael Lowry

Nothing in comparison to FF but a history of corruption all the same and should not be ignored.

Lowry was kicked out of the party when he was exposed. Compare Charlie Haughey Beverly Cooper Flynn, Liam Lawlor, Bertie Ahern - ffs, even Ivor Callely quit the party rather than be kicked out!

Fianna Failure supporters I have spoken to (going back to the mid-90s when I became interested in politics) think everyone is out for themselves, and they have massive respect for those who get away with corruption (i.e. are good at it). Another good reason I hope to see the club set up for these people wiped out.

Biggins

Mark200 wrote: »

That's because they prefer the unions.

Yes, but while the unions have been shown to be a pain, they are not out to rob from the public pockets/purse for sake of big businesses and foreign bank accounts and self gain in the form of screwing the expenses system and under the counter envelope shuffling!

Ulysses Gaze

Mark200 wrote: »

That's because they prefer the unions.

But which party is responsible for Benchmarking and essentially, buying of said Unions?

It ain't Labour.

Absurdum

CoalBucket wrote: »

ehh Michael Lowry

Nothing in comparison to FF but a history of corruption all the same and should not be ignored.

he was forced out when those revelations came out in public, and iirc John Bruton made sure he wouldn't be allowed back into the party

Mark200

Biggins wrote: »

Yes, but while the unions have been shown to be a pain, they are not out to rob from the public pockets/purse for sake of big businesses and foreign bank accounts!

No, they're just out to rob for their members.

dabestman1

Because as a group of voters, we are that damn stupid. Go through fine gaels pre budget, it mirrors that of fianna fails "protect the rich strtategy".
wouldnt be surprised to see a FG-FF coalition in the next govt.

Mark200

dabestman1 wrote: »

Because as a group of voters, we are that damn stupid. Go through fine gaels pre budget, it mirrors that of fianna fails "protect the rich strtategy".
wouldnt be surprised to see a FG-FF coalition in the next govt.

In what sense does it protect the rich?

Biggins

Mark200 wrote: »

No, they're just out to rob for their members.

Again, maybe - but then those members can stop paying the following week if they want to.
Vote FF or FG in and your stuck with them for years of doing the same old schite - just under a different name!

dabestman1

Mark200 wrote: »

In what sense does it protect the rich?

It puts only a cap of 200,000 on civil servants, what value!
No mention of serious political pensions reform.
Cutting social welfare by 18% to 2014, etc

Inverse to the power of one!

Mark200 wrote: »

That's because they prefer the unions.

And they both dine in hellwonderful towers of Ivory :P

If they dont vote against the budget they'll never get a vote off me again..

Mark200

Biggins wrote: »

Again, maybe - but then those members can stop paying the following week if they want to.
Vote FF or FG in and your stuck with them for years of doing the same old schite - just under a different name!

Why would they top paying? Their unions are raping business profits for them.

dabestman1 wrote: »

It puts only a cap of 200,000 on civil servants, what value!
No mention of serious political pensions reform.
Cutting social welfare by 18% to 2014, etc

Whereas Labour would put the cap at 190,000. WOW. :rolleyes: Fine Gael would abolish the Senate and reduce the number of TDs. That hands down defeats the negligible reduction in wages that Labour are proposing.

I believe I read Fine Gael would not cut pensions (whereas FF would), and social welfare needs to be cut.

brianthebard

Biggins wrote: »

I wouldn't. They are two sides of the same damn coin!
Utterly in their positions for self gain and bought by big businesses!

...And both headed by useless plebs!

Amazingly inciteful political commentary there, really cut to the chase and allows the reader to make an informed decision based on policies and ideologies of the parties....

Biggins

brianthebard wrote: »

Amazingly inciteful political commentary there, really cut to the chase and allows the reader to make an informed decision based on policies and ideologies of the parties....

I've come to that conclusion after many decades of seeing them operate at national, local level and up close.
Sorry if it disagrees with your views.

Their ideologies can be researched in a flash by the public if they want to.
However in the meanwhile, what they say and that which they have done/do - is far off the mark!

Ardennes1944

well the reason i get from my friends are....cos em...they've less crooks than ff:rolleyes:

Mark200

Biggins wrote: »

However in the meanwhile, what they say and that which they have done/do - is far off the mark!

For example?

syklops

Biggins wrote: »

Again, maybe - but then those members can stop paying the following week if they want to.
Vote FF or FG in and your stuck with them for years of doing the same old schite - just under a different name!

Now that's bollocks! FG in a coalition with Labour sowed the seeds of the celtic tiger. Whatever Bertie told you, that Ireland's economic situation improved demonstrably the minute he got power.

FG have spent the last 15 years on the opposition watching this whole situation unfurl. They gave suggestions and advice over the years, and were ignored by FF. People say to me, "Oh but they had the power to change things" but the truth is they didn't. They need a majority to make a change and they didn't have one.

In times like this, when people get frustrated with the political parties, they vote for independents, because they think they are without reproach, and that they will not be swayed by party politics, but what they forget is, that the reason FF are still in power is because of Independents. Any time an opposition party calls for a vote of No confidence, FF ring up the various independents and say "What do you want for your agreement to vote for us?". So Jackie Healy Rae et al get whatever they want for their constituents, vote pro-FF, and the majority is maintained.

brianthebard

Biggins wrote: »

I've come to that conclusion after many decades of seeing them operate at national, local level and up close.
Sorry if it disagrees with your views.

Their ideologies can be researched in a flash by the public if they want to.
However in the meanwhile, what they say and that which they have done/do - is far off the mark!

Such bull.

Biggins

Mark200 wrote: »

For example?

The promises by either side and what they then have done while in office (and FG was in office ever so briefly years back) are too much to list.
It would take hours to list them all with confirmations for those that would claim others here are making them up.

One could do research into what previously has been said and then actually done.

I know you disagree but over many years so far I have seen NOTHING to show me that FG and FF differ in any way from antics, voting and outlook for self gain!

kincsem

Wikipedia

Allegations of corruption

This section may be confusing or unclear.

The party, along with its coalition partners, was re-elected in the 2002 general election. It has been hit by numerous scandals. (Founding father Frank Aiken refused to run in the 1973 general election because the party had Haughey as a candidate while first leader Éamon de Valera told a senior minister in 1970 that "Haughey will ruin the party."[citation needed]

Another former minister, Ray Burke, whom Ahern appointed to cabinet for a short time in 1997, was recently explicitly described by retired High Court judge, Fergus Flood in a tribunal of inquiry as "corrupt", and was jailed in January 2005 for tax offences. The privileged treatment accorded to Burke in prison was subsequently widely criticised, especially by Fine Gael.

Former Fianna Fáil Government Press Secretary Frank Dunlop is giving evidence to a tribunal of inquiry in relation to his allegations that long-serving Fianna Fáil senators took bribes to arrange for planning permissions to be granted to particular property developers. Other councillors (past and present) from a number of parties, but predominantly from Fianna Fáil, are expected to be named. The tribunal has yet to judge the credibility or otherwise of Dunlop and his evidence.

Former Fianna Fáil TD, Liam Lawlor was also accused of corrupt practices in relation to planning and development. He was jailed repeatedly for refusal to cooperate with the tribunal. He did not resign his Dublin West seat and continued to attend the Dáil, returning to Mountjoy Prison after the sessions, where he enjoyed most of the same privileges as Mr. Burke.

Another TD, Beverley Cooper-Flynn of Mayo, was forced to resign from the party when it was revealed that she had advised people on how to illegally evade tax while working as a financial adviser for National Irish Bank. She was readmitted when she threatened to run as an Independent candidate, expelled again after she lost a libel action against RTÉ, and readmitted unanimously to the party shortly after Ahern's resignation.

Kerry North TD Denis Foley was found to have held an Ansbacher bank account and subsequently could not seek re-election in 1997. Michael Collins of the Collins family dynasty in Limerick suffered a similar fate in 2002, when he was found to have evaded tax by the Revenue Commissioners.

On 8 December 2005, Ivor Callely TD resigned his junior ministerial post after RTÉ News reported that a building contractor involved in public contracts had painted his house for free in the early 1990s. It was also revealed that Callely had offered to personally buy a new car for one of his civil service advisers, in an attempt to persuade the adviser not to leave their job. Apparently, Callely's department had an unusually high turnover of staff for some time under his stewardship.[13]

Bertie Ahern, in September 2006 admitted having received payments from "friends" in the early 1990s which he termed as a combination of loans and gifts totalling £48,000 while serving as Minister for Finance. Damaged by the controversy initially, which included admissions of appointing friends to state boards and not having a bank account while serving as Minister for Finance, support for the party in opinion polls rose after Ahern described the circumstances of the payments to the public in an interview with RTÉ television.[14] Former Taoiseach Albert Reynolds stated in a radio interview on RTÉ that he would have told Ahern that taking such payments was totally unacceptable. As the then Taoiseach he should have been informed by Ahern and would have been very clear that accepting the payments was wrong. He said that many other options were open to Ahern such as getting a bank loan. [15] After the payments controversy, polling data suggested that Bertie Ahern's increase in popularity due to the payments controversy was primarily a sympathetic reaction.
In September 2007, Ahern testified over a four day period at the Mahon Tribunal about these payments and his explanations under oath varied from day to day, being described by one of the sitting judges as "polar opposite"[16]
In April 2008 Ahern announced his intended resignation as Taoiseach and party leader, naming May 2008 as when he would step down. The announcement came during a period of increased disquiet over his evidence to the Mahon Tribunal, in particular denials of foreign currency lodgements, which were contradicted in evidence given by his former secretary, who accepted that paperwork before the tribunal indicated a sterling lodgement was made by her on his behalf.

Biggins

brianthebard wrote: »

Such bull.

Yea, of course it is.
Seeing them operate frankly has shown me that they are full of a bulls-end product!

Mark200

Biggins wrote: »

The promises by either side and what they then have done while in office (and FG was in office ever so briefly years back) are too much to list.
It would take hours to list them all with confirmations for those that would claim others here are making them up.

I asked for a few examples and not a comprehensive list.

Also just to add - they were in a coalition Government with Labour. If you're just going to give me stuff that they said they'd do but obviously could not have done with Labour as their partners, then don't bother. That's the way coalition governments work. Each party has to make compromises.

Monty Burnz

Mark200 wrote: »

I asked for a few examples and not a comprehensive list.

Also just to add - they were in a coalition Government with Labour. If you're just going to give me stuff that they said they'd do but obviously could not have done with Labour as their partners, then don't bother. That's the way coalition governments work. Each party has to make compromises.

I don't think Biggins is looking for a serious discussion. Don't feed the trolls :rolleyes:

Biggins

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I don't think Biggins is looking for a serious discussion. Don't feed the trolls :rolleyes:

Yes, because thats all I am and ever been - good one! :rolleyes:

---

I'm (and many I suspect) looking for a new voting direction.
The current lot are not cutting it and by god, I'm not voting for SF!

So a lot of us are lost!

Thats might be trolling :rolleyes: for saying that - but thats the way things stand for a lot of folk!

Mark200

Biggins wrote: »

Like I said, it would take hours to list them all

Like I said, I was only looking for a few examples. Surely if a list containing everything would bd as long as you claim, then it should be extremely easy to pick a few examples off the top of your head?

But keep on avoiding the question...

Edit - I see you edited your post to take out what I quoted and your link to something apparently about Labour being just as bad. Fair enough.

Nolanger

Because they're waiting for an extreme right-wing political party to be formed here.