Are Sinn Fein Communist?

FF and proud

Ive just been on to that website belong them Sinn Fein people looking up their economic policies and is it just myself or do a lot of their policies seem a bit too far out to the left for the Irish electorate. I mean I dont know many people who would want to go that far to the left so do you think Sinn Fein is damaging its electoral chances by going too far to the left like theyve been already?

The Volt

It's well documented that SF are further left than Labour for example but are they communist? Not nearly. Are you even vaguely familiar with what Communism is?

zig

How about elaborating on what policies makes them go 'too far to the left'.

ressem

According to a former member and councillor, no. They consider the socialism bit expendable.

Domhnall &#211 wrote: »

Like many other republicans I opposed sectarianism and racism but worked on a day to day basis within a party largely limited by communitarian politics.

Over time, the contradictions seemed to grow more antagonistic. When our socialist commitments met the hard realities of political power, it always seemed to be the status quo that won out. The party seemed to prioritise ‘not scaring the horses’ as many leadership figures would say when people like me questioned political decisions. Everything seemed amenable to sacrifice if they could get a stable working relationship with the DUP in the new institutions. This they held in some lofty analysis was critical in getting to a united Ireland. In the end, it boiled down to the fact that the socialist part of the vision could be sacrificed as necessary to enable the nationalist agenda to be fulfilled; a return to de Valera’s strategy that ‘labour must wait’.

Fianna Fail on the other hand... accidentally Marxist?
They've done more nationalization of property and destruction of 'bourgeois' capital than anyone in living memory.
Lets see...

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

MaNaMa + property tax

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

Next week

3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.

Looks like they're starting with their own TDs.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

Negative Equity? Check.

5. Centralisation of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.

Getting there too. Can't start a tiny savings club legally without Regulatory permission. Byebye new Credit unions.

6. Centralisation of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.

Not yet. Must be next term.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

Creating an army from the unemployed left in the country?

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.

By ribbon housing development?

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c., &c.

Manach

I disagree with FF being marxist/communist. The Soviets had a decent intelligent service, produced some excellent kitcsh art work and yes while they managed to spend billions in a failed space-race, at least send a dog into high earth orbit instead of their entire economy.

Iwasfrozen

Manach wrote:

I disagree with FF being marxist/communist. The Soviets had a decent intelligent service, produced some excellent kitcsh art work and yes while they managed to spend billions in a failed space-race, at least send a dog into high earth orbit instead of their entire economy.

What? Why do you think the Soviet space program was a failure?

Nehaxak

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What? Why do you think the Soviet space program was a failure?

They couldn't master photoshop to make it look like they landed on the moon for a start, like the US did...

*whistles*...

DeVore

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

What? Why do you think the Soviet space program was a failure?

Eh... They put the first man in space. Not sure I'd consider that a failure....

DeV.

Nodin

DeVore wrote: »

Eh... They put the first man in space. Not sure I'd consider that a failure....

DeV.

..woman, dog, satellite, space station. First human object to escape earth orbit. Added to the first space walk, orbit, first probes to Mars, Venus, Moon. We could do with more failure like it.

eoinbn

Sounds like an american BB- left-wing= communist.

How about elaborating on what policies makes them go 'too far to the left'.

Those policies would be the ones that they don't talk about. Sinn Fein are basically against all cuts which means that they would have to raise taxes by €15bn over the next few years. So either SF are been populist by not saying what they are going to do that will hurt the average joe soap or they have crazy tax idea's that will scare anyone with wealth from investing in here.

RandomName2

Nodin wrote: »

..woman, dog, satellite, space station. First human object to escape earth orbit. Added to the first space walk, orbit, first probes to Mars, Venus, Moon. We could do with more failure like it.

They ultimately lost the space race and then went spectacularly broke.

Unlike us.

We built motorways (with tolls)... err Landsdowne Road Sta- I mean Aviva Stadium (with the incurred ticket problems) and... unlinked Luas lines.... and lots and lots of empty (not terribly pretty or well built) buildings.

And then went spectacularly broke.

On reflection, you're right. If you are going to crash at least do something worth talking about before hand.

---

On topic I always thought of SF as more fascist (despite their protestations) apart from the fact that they interfere more in private businesses than fascist parties traditionally do.

Chuchoter

When my mum was in France back in the 80s there was a video about Sinn Fein shown in universities wanting to turn Ireland into a communist country but it was never shown here

fcussen

FF and proud wrote: »

Ive just been on to that website belong them Sinn Fein people looking up their economic policies and is it just myself or do a lot of their policies seem a bit too far out to the left for the Irish electorate. I mean I dont know many people who would want to go that far to the left so do you think Sinn Fein is damaging its electoral chances by going too far to the left like theyve been already?

This post is indicative of the level of desperation that FF are at - resorting to "reds under the bed" demagoguery.

To answer the question, Sinn Féin are good at tailoring their message. The reason they're likely to do well in the next election is that they're playing to a niche for class-based politics that's been left by the other 2 and a half parties being largely the same ideologically. When they go looking for funding in Boston or New York they won't be talking about socialism, high corporation tax, representing the working class, etc.

hsi

SF in the South have no idea how to run a country.

Just look at the 5 TD's...

FF failed on Managing Property Bubble & Banks, Major mistake which will haunt Ireland. But SF would see Ireland raise Corportation tax, Default on our debts.

They would also open the pandoras box of Irish unity and have MP's given speaking rights in Dail.

What SF want is a revolution in Ireland. The instability that Sinn Fein would cause would mean hundreds of thousands of Job losts as companies pull out of Ireland.

Nodin

crayolastereo wrote: »

When my mum was in France back in the 80s there was a video about Sinn Fein shown in universities wanting to turn Ireland into a communist country but it was never shown here

Sure it wasn't "Official" Sinn Fein/workers party/democratic left/stickies?

Manach

OT - Re: Space race, I was only thinking of the race to the moon and I gladly concede the Soviet space achievements mentioned by other posters.

dlofnep

Trying to deflect some attention from your own party there, OP? I'd rather be a socialist, than a reverse socialist - where you take from the poor, and give to the rich.

todolist

Manach wrote: »

I disagree with FF being marxist/communist. The Soviets had a decent intelligent service, produced some excellent kitcsh art work and yes while they managed to spend billions in a failed space-race, at least send a dog into high earth orbit instead of their entire economy.

The communist ideology lead to mass murder on an industrial scale in Russia and China.55 million died in a man made famine in china.Communism is an evil unparalleled in human history.I'm amazed anyone could see any merit in such an evil,murderous ideology.

PARKHEAD67

FF and proud wrote: »

Ive just been on to that website belong them Sinn Fein people looking up their economic policies and is it just myself or do a lot of their policies seem a bit too far out to the left for the Irish electorate. I mean I dont know many people who would want to go that far to the left so do you think Sinn Fein is damaging its electoral chances by going too far to the left like theyve been already?

No theyre not but keep voting FF Bertie.Good man. That'll sort this mess out.Are you still going for President BTW?

Shea O'Meara

todolist wrote: »

The communist ideology lead to mass murder on an industrial scale in Russia and China.55 million died in a man made famine in china.Communism is an evil unparalleled in human history.I'm amazed anyone could see any merit in such an evil,murderous ideology.

No.
I would have no problem with communism. It does not scare me, because it means equality. It's too hardcore in some areas, but I don't fear it. Worst case scenario, they want me to have the same as them.
Your post is about dictatorships. I'm not aware of any communist regime ever having existed for any real length of time. Some right winger in leftist clothing always comes along to **** it up for everybody.

O.P. Wasn't Bertie a socialist? I say 'was' because he's in semi-retirment at the mo.

Denerick

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

No.
I would have no problem with communism. It does not scare me, because it means equality. It's too hardcore in some areas, but I don't fear it. Worst case scenario, they want me to have the same as them.
Your post is about dictatorships. I'm not aware of any communist regime ever having existed for any real length of time. Some right winger in leftist clothing always comes along to **** it up for everybody.

The problem with Denerism is that no-one knows what it is other than me. I like to think I'm practising it utterly and unconsiously and am indeed a Denerist. The only true Denerist true to Denerism in the world. Anyone else who has ever attempted Denerism has in fact been adopting a different ideology entirely, and thus Denerism is totally absolved of blame and is indeed flawless as a pure ideology untouched by the madness of tyranny.

My metaphors got a bit mixed up there, but I hope you got the general gist of it.

dlofnep

todolist wrote: »

The communist ideology lead to mass murder on an industrial scale in Russia and China.55 million died in a man made famine in china.Communism is an evil unparalleled in human history.I'm amazed anyone could see any merit in such an evil,murderous ideology.

That's not what communism is I'm afraid.

Monty Burnz

I'd love to answer your question but I couldn't stop laughing at your username - 'FF and proud'.

I'm assuming it's a joke

But it's a strange world we live in, and if it's a serious statement - what the FF are you proud of?

PARKHEAD67

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'd love to answer your question but I couldn't stop laughing at your username - 'FF and proud'.

I'm assuming it's a joke

But it's a strange world we live in, and if it's a serious statement - what the FF are you proud of?

His local FF councillor re-zoned his land for a brown envelope no doubt. Proud as punch-Honest money. No brown envelopes here. Why u driving a 10 range rover? O didnt you hear-FF re zoned me land. IM a lord now.

Chuchoter

I think communism is a nice idea but it fails to account for human nature so it just won't ever work.

Rockery Woman

crayolastereo wrote: »

I think communism is a nice idea but it fails to account for human nature so it just won't ever work.

I absolutely agree. In principle Communism is a great idea - but it never works. It leads to corruption on a massive scale - I have friends from Poland who tell me what life was like under communist rule, they had nothing!

gonedrinking

hsi wrote: »

But SF would see Ireland raise Corportation tax, Default on our debts.

Not true, they decided about 2 years ago that their policy on corporation tax would be to leave it as it was. They were recently questioned on this and comfirmed they have no intention of changing the corp tax rate should they get into power.

gonedrinking

eoinbn wrote: »

Sinn Fein are basically against all cuts which means

Wrong again, they plan to make about 1.5 billion in cuts to the public sector. And use 7 billion from the NPRF as an economic stimulus package to create jobs. Although presumably SF will now have to do a new pre-budget since theirs was done before the government decided to give away the NPRF to the banks bondholders.

LeixlipRed

Rockery Woman wrote: »

I absolutely agree. In principle Communism is a great idea - but it never works. It leads to corruption on a massive scale - I have friends from Poland who tell me what life was like under communist rule, they had nothing!

Except your friend isn't talking about communism. She's talking about Stalinism. I wish people would educate themselves before they typed anything. Not just aimed at yourself, some hilarious stuff in this thread.

Monty Burnz

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Except your friend isn't talking about communism. She's talking about Stalinism. I wish people would educate themselves before they typed anything. Not just aimed at yourself, some hilarious stuff in this thread.

Without wanting to go O/T, I think the problem is that whenever anyone points a country which endured a (failed) communist experiment, we are always told that it wasn't actually communism at all, it was 'Stalinism' or 'Totalitarianism' or some other '-ism' - anything except communism. This in spite of the fact that the regimes in question were described by those within and without as 'communist' at the time.

Those who still cling to Marxist/communist beliefs have an obvious reason to distance themselves from these failed social experiments.

irishh_bob

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Without wanting to go O/T, I think the problem is that whenever anyone points a country which endured a (failed) communist experiment, we are always told that it wasn't actually communism at all, it was 'Stalinism' or 'Totalitarianism' or some other '-ism' - anything except communism. This in spite of the fact that the regimes in question were described by those within and without as 'communist' at the time.

Those who still cling to Marxist/communist beliefs have an obvious reason to distance themselves from these failed social experiments.

lipstick on a pig and all that

Denerick

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Except your friend isn't talking about communism. She's talking about Stalinism. I wish people would educate themselves before they typed anything. Not just aimed at yourself, some hilarious stuff in this thread.

It seems to me that you have a profound misunderstanding of political science. Anyone who has ever attempted to implement communism on this planet - outside tiny communes that inevitably amounted to little more than a hippy drug binge - has resorted to widespread tyranny, murder, repression and almost comical witchunts of perceived enemies of communist dogma and/or agents of capitalism plotting to overthrow socialist utopia.

If something constantly fails its usually a sign that something is profoundly wrong with the political ideology itself.

Please, no more 'no true Scotsman' bullshít.

fcussen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Without wanting to go O/T, I think the problem is that whenever anyone points a country which endured a (failed) communist experiment, we are always told that it wasn't actually communism at all, it was 'Stalinism' or 'Totalitarianism' or some other '-ism' - anything except communism. This in spite of the fact that the regimes in question were described by those within and without as 'communist' at the time.

Those who still cling to Marxist/communist beliefs have an obvious reason to distance themselves from these failed social experiments.

Union of Soviet Soviet Socialist Republics
People's Republic of China
Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

Where does the word "communist" appear in the names of these countries?

The Marxist-Leninist ideology that was dominant in these countries referred to the existing social system as "socialism", which they saw as a transitory stage towards the future perfect "communist" society. At no point, did the rulers of these nations claim that their society was perfect and the higher "communist" phase had been reached.

If you are referring to the fact that these countries were controlled by "Communist" Parties, well it should be noted then much as capital C Conservatism and small c conservatism are not always the same thing, capital C Communism and small c communism are two separate but related entities.

Small c-communism refers to a theoretical ideal society where all are equal and each individual is free to become accomplished in any field he wishes. Capital C-Communism refers to a political movement originating with the Russian Revolution whose supposed end goal was to create this kind of society.

As you've noted attempts to implement "communism" in one fell swoop have historically proved disastrous, but that does not therefore discredit the "communist" ideal or "communistic" thinking as something against which the existing socio-economic system can be criticised in contrast.

Monty Burnz

fcussen wrote: »

As you've noted attempts to implement "communism" in one fell swoop have historically proved disastrous, but that does not therefore discredit the "communist" ideal or "communistic" thinking as something against which the existing socio-economic system can be criticised in contrast.

Um...yes it does.

fcussen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Um...yes it does.

So, are you saying that people looking for means by which our society can be made to more closely resemble a society where all are equal and each individual is free to become accomplished in any field he wishes is a bad thing?

LeixlipRed

That's exactly what they're saying. They think that socialists are one step away from becoming genoicidal maniacs. That's what the Gulags are for after the revolution. No internet access there my friends!

LeixlipRed

Denerick wrote: »

It seems to me that you have a profound misunderstanding of political science. Anyone who has ever attempted to implement communism on this planet - outside tiny communes that inevitably amounted to little more than a hippy drug binge - has resorted to widespread tyranny, murder, repression and almost comical witchunts of perceived enemies of communist dogma and/or agents of capitalism plotting to overthrow socialist utopia.

If something constantly fails its usually a sign that something is profoundly wrong with the political ideology itself.

Please, no more 'no true Scotsman' bullshít.

You could probably replace the word communism with capitalism, capitalism with feudalism, slightly alter the metaphors and transport yourself back in time 250 years to your country manor. Let's hope history doesn't have the last laugh again!!

Scambuster

They are a nationalist socialist party.

Monty Burnz

fcussen wrote: »

So, are you saying that people looking for means by which our society can be made to more closely resemble a society where all are equal and each individual is free to become accomplished in any field he wishes is a bad thing?

Let me put it this way: how do you think previous efforts have gone?

dlofnep

Denerick wrote: »

and almost comical witchunts of perceived enemies of communist dogma and/or agents of capitalism plotting to overthrow socialist utopia.

Like Vietnam?

fcussen

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Let me put it this way: how do you think previous efforts have gone?

The problem with Communism/Marxism is that it assumes that all humans are fundamentally productive and everyone essentially wants the same thing out of life: to become accomplished as a worker. The Soviet-style systems couldn't take any level of dissent; they had to force people to get with the program.

However, the higher standard of living for the working classes, greater social mobility, greater social security, better health services etc. enjoyed by other countries has often been the result of political parties, trade unions, etc. making demands on or changes to the existing system on the basis that there is an inherent injustice in the means of production being privately owned, and that necessary large scale resources such as utilities, hospitals, etc. work better when they are collectively owned.

Monty Burnz

fcussen wrote: »

The problem with Communism/Marxism is that it assumes that all humans are fundamentally productive and everyone essentially wants the same thing out of life: to become accomplished as a worker. The Soviet-style systems couldn't take any level of dissent; they had to force people to get with the program.

However, the higher standard of living for the working classes, greater social mobility, greater social security, better health services etc. enjoyed by other countries has often been the result of political parties, trade unions, etc. making demands on or changes to the existing system on the basis that there is an inherent injustice in the means of production being privately owned, and that necessary large scale resources such as utilities, hospitals, etc. work better when they are collectively owned.

So it seems that capitalism, tempered with concern for human rights and minimum standards of living, is the optimal system? One that continues to operate successfully in the face of all the challenges it has faced?

Kiki10

crayolastereo wrote: »

When my mum was in France back in the 80s there was a video about Sinn Fein shown in universities wanting to turn Ireland into a communist country but it was never shown here

Thats probably cause Ireland was under fairly strict censorship laws right into the 1990's, which suited our FF dictators fine. The French are very anti communist but pro Irish so I would call them a fair broker on this question.

Sinn Fein are as commie as Stalin. At a guess if we vote them in it will be the last vote we have.

Nodin

Kiki10 wrote: »

Thats probably cause Ireland was under fairly strict censorship laws right into the 1990's, which suited our FF dictators fine.

That statement makes no sense.

Kiki10 wrote: »

The French are very anti communist but pro Irish so I would call them a fair broker on this question..

So theres no such thing as a French communist?

Kiki10 wrote: »

Sinn Fein are as commie as Stalin. At a guess if we vote them in it will be the last vote we have.

...despite the absence of communist policies...?

RandomName2

LeixlipRed wrote: »

Except your friend isn't talking about communism. She's talking about Stalinism. I wish people would educate themselves before they typed anything. Not just aimed at yourself, some hilarious stuff in this thread.

Fascism was great.

T'was only hitlerism that was bad.







----
Okay there's a distiction, just not much of one. Tito for best communist leader ever!

Kiki10

Nodin wrote: »

Kiki10 wrote: »

Thats probably cause Ireland was under fairly strict censorship laws right into the 1990's, which suited our FF dictators fine.

That statement makes no sense.



So theres no such thing as a French communist?



...despite the absence of communist policies...?

They have commie's in France but there controlled.
Getting rid of private heath care is a corner stone of commie despot country's.
"everyone Que's" should be there slogan

the_syco

gonedrinking wrote: »

Not true, they decided about 2 years ago that their policy on corporation tax would be to leave it as it was. They were recently questioned on this and comfirmed they have no intention of changing the corp tax rate should they get into power.

Really? Odd. I just saw them back peddling when a journalist picked up on it being in their constitution that they'd raise the corporation tax for non-Irish companies to something insane like 40%...

Nodin

Kiki10 wrote: »

They have commie's in France but there controlled.

Fascinating. Who "controls" them?

Kiki10 wrote: »

Getting rid of private heath care is a corner stone of commie despot country's.

'Having decent roads was a corner stone of every Facist dictators policy, therefore all people who support decent roads are facists'. Its a logical fallacy.

dlofnep

the_syco wrote: »

Really? Odd. I just saw them back peddling when a journalist picked up on it being in their constitution that they'd raise the corporation tax for non-Irish companies to something insane like 40%...

sauce?

The current policy is to remain at 12.5%

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Kiki10

Nodin wrote: »

Fascinating. Who "controls" them?



'Having decent roads was a corner stone of every Facist dictators policy, therefore all people who support decent roads are facists'. Its a logical fallacy.

what always amazes me about sinn feiners who say there not communist, is they always get more excited about insulting communists than sinn fein?
Lads yer brighter red than a fire brigade on st. Patrick's day parade!
Why don't you tell the truth about it!