What Price a Head Librarian...

kaiser sauze

...in UCD?

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[I felt this was more an AH than politics, mod call on this]

According to John McGuirk(of Libertas fame), speaking on Vincent Browne 30/11, the head librarian in UCD earns €130,000. :eek:

Can anyone verify this claim?

Is anyone else shocked to hear of this salary, or have my senses to waste in the public sector not been nullified enough?

Elohim

What price good grammar internet...

Anyways i've heard from book shelvers that the salary is fairly well justified.

kaiser sauze

Elohim wrote: »

What price good grammar internet...

Anyways i've heard from book shelvers that the salary is fairly well justified.

Alphabeticising those books must be trickier than I believe.

Elohim

Ya they have to put them into the different categories and stuff too.

Terry

kaiser sauze wrote: »

...in UCD?

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[I felt this was more an AH than politics, mod call on this]

According to John McGuirk(of Libertas fame)

That's where I stopped reading.

syklops

Looks like he is correct:

Current UCD Staff Salary Scales


LIBRARY


Librarian
Code Position Point Pay Rate Effective
0030_X LIBRARIAN_2010 1 €107,964.00 p.a. 01/01/2010
2 €114,011.00 p.a.
3 €120,169.00 p.a.
4 €126,354.00 p.a.
5 €132,534.00 p.a.
6 €138,719.00 p.a.
For Deputy Librarian scale, see Senior Administrative Officer II 2010 (0052_X)
For Associate Librarian scale, see Senior Administrative Officer III 2010 (0053_X)
0130_X 95 LIBRARIAN_2010 1 €113,517.00 p.a. 01/01/2010
2 €119,992.00 p.a.
3 €126,500.00 p.a.
4 €133,004.00 p.a.
5 €139,517.00 p.a.
6 €146,022.00 p.a.

Source:

http://www.ucd.ie/hr/add/salary_scales/scales.htm

FlutterinBantam

Degsy should be able to sort this one out.

delta_bravo

Yes the Head librarian receives this.

UCD also has the craziest managment structure ever. Theres 10 Vice Presidents and 1 President. All of which generally earn more than the Taoiseach with bonuses and expenses included.

Cookie_Monster

what do they do to justify that level of pay exactly?

sellerbarry

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what do they do to justify that level of pay exactly?

Probably about the same as our Taoiseach.;)

evercloserunion

I heard John McGuirk is a tool, anyone know if this is true?! :eek:

El Siglo

Then you wonder why UCD is 13 million in debt with the head librarian earning this and ten vice presidents.

CreepingDeath

Not bad money for doing an unskilled girls job.

bonerm

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Alphabeticising those books must be trickier than I believe.

I'd like to see you dewey it.

COYW

Deary me. I fancy a career change after reading this.

punchdrunk

bonerm wrote: »

I'd like to see you dewey it.

YOUR ONE OF THEM!!!!!!!!!! :eek:

Japer

delta_bravo wrote: »

Yes the Head librarian receives this.

UCD also has the craziest managment structure ever. Theres 10 Vice Presidents and 1 President. All of which generally earn more than the Taoiseach with bonuses and expenses included.

130,000 per year is not big money, when you consider that person has to work hard for it, and only gets 6 weeks holidays a year. When they retire they only get a tax free lump sum of 195,000 and an annual pension of 65,000. You try surviving / running holiday homes on only 65 grand a year.
Our retiring minister Dermot Ahern is better off, he is only in his early to mid fifties and can start collecting his 125,000 pension a year in a few months time.

Jumpy

It depends if you the whole Librarian.

Accidently or otherwise.

ilovelamp2000

Japer wrote: »

130,000 per year is not big money, when you consider that person has to work hard for it, and only gets 6 weeks holidays a year. When they retire they only get a tax free lump sum of 195,000 and an annual pension of 65,000. You try surviving / running holiday homes on only 65 grand a year.
Our retiring minister Dermot Ahern is better off, he is only in his early to mid fifties and can start collecting his 125,000 pension a year in a few months time.

It is a tough life

Adam

El Siglo wrote: »

Then you wonder why UCD is 13 million in debt with the head librarian earning this and ten vice presidents.

is anybody else reminded of Gordon Gecko's "greed is good" speech to teldar about their 33 vice presidents?

sbsquarepants

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly does a librarian do? I'm not being a smart arse, i genuinely don't know. Is it not just a matter of putting books on shelves in their correct place and keeping track of who has borrowed them? Maybe keep the stock up to date when new editions are released etc? Does the head librarian then not just make sure the other librarians are doing their bit, maybe sign off on invoices for these new books etc?
Surely this is should be tending more towards the lower end of the pay spectrum than the 130k end? No?

Is there a librarian in the house that could set the record straight?

ejmaztec

This Godwin moment would save us a few quid.

stovelid

I applaud the continuing ingenuity involved in constantly unearthing alternative rabble targets.

Monty Burnz

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Is there a librarian in the house that could set the record straight?

I'm no expert (worked in a university library for a few hours a week as a student) but think of the head librarian as the manager of the whole library business - they are managing all the staff, the building and the interactions with the rest of the university organisation - it's not about shelving books.

Having said that, 130k sounds a bit rich to me - 80k would be plenty.

Wompa1

Stupid question. What qualification are required for that job?

amacachi

El Siglo wrote: »

Then you wonder why UCD is 13 million in debt with the head librarian earning this and ten vice presidents.

Well it's better than TCD not having a deficit in their accounts, makes it easier to justify begging more money from the state.

Wompa1

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I'm no expert (worked in a university library for a few hours a week as a student) but think of the head librarian as the manager of the whole library business - they are managing all the staff, the building and the interactions with the rest of the university organisation - it's not about shelving books.

Having said that, 130k sounds a bit rich to me - 80k would be plenty.

Even 80k for that work is a bit much, it's a library. It's not exactly pivotal to have an ace running it...but meh, what do I know really.

tony1kenobi

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly does a librarian do?

Shhhhhhhhhhhhh.

seamus

Wompa1 wrote: »

Even 80k for that work is a bit much, it's a library. It's not exactly pivotal to have an ace running it...but meh, what do I know really.

Librarians do more really than sit at a desk and file books into bookshelves.

They require a quite strong qualification in Information Studies, as they primarily look after archiving documents (which is more than filing them) and research and reference.

There's far more to research than typing words into Google, as much of the published works in any particular area will not be publically available on Google and instead will be in the books, leaflets and white papers only available within the library.

The "reference desk" in a library is where you can go to them with a topic and they'll go off and produce a pile of books containing information which may be useful for you. Something that you can't really do with Google, especially in specialist topics. Even if the information was on Google, there's a huge difference between finding information, and finding relevant and useful information. We've all seen people say they can't find any useful information on Google, and then you turn around and give them exactly what they need in a minute or two.

The description here sounds like something a trained monkey could do:
http://www.careerdirections.ie/CDW3C/AccessDBAllCareerDetails.jsp?id=150

But I think the payscales generally reflect the difficulty of getting people who have the relevant qualifications, as being a librarian is not seen as a cool job

Sonnenblumen

sbsquarepants wrote: »

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly does a librarian do?

Earn lots of money and in their spare time spend lots of money? For further information go to 10.142.13:D

Wompa1

seamus wrote: »

Librarians do more really than sit at a desk and file books into bookshelves.

They require a quite strong qualification in Information Studies, as they primarily look after archiving documents (which is more than filing them) and research and reference.

There's far more to research than typing words into Google, as much of the published works in any particular area will not be publically available on Google and instead will be in the books, leaflets and white papers only available within the library.

The "reference desk" in a library is where you can go to them with a topic and they'll go off and produce a pile of books containing information which may be useful for you. Something that you can't really do with Google, especially in specialist topics. Even if the information was on Google, there's a huge difference between finding information, and finding relevant and useful information. We've all seen people say they can't find any useful information on Google, and then you turn around and give them exactly what they need in a minute or two.

The description here sounds like something a trained monkey could do:
http://www.careerdirections.ie/CDW3C/AccessDBAllCareerDetails.jsp?id=150

But I think the payscales generally reflect the difficulty of getting people who have the relevant qualifications, as being a librarian is not seen as a cool job

But wouldn't they look at the books as they get them and categorize them into a database. That way when someone comes to them and asks for a book about something in particular they can do a query of the database using keywords...

That seemed to be how it worked in the college I went to. Everything was computerized. Granted the initial setup of the database would have been torture but at this stage most unis should be well past that.

ComaWhite

Wompa1 wrote: »

Stupid question. What qualification are required for that job?

You need a degree in Information and Library Science. I'm currently struggling through this Masters in UCD, and speaking honestly, it's probably the most intense course I have ever done, and probably will do.

seamus

Wompa1 wrote: »

But wouldn't they look at the books as they get them and categorize them into a database. That way when someone comes to them and asks for a book about something in particular they can do a query of the database using keywords...

Yes, but who compiles the keywords when you're inserting a book into the database? If you are an information studies graduate faced with a technical medical document, how do you summarise the information in that document to compile a list of keywords which will link that document to the topics it's useful for? Using the title of the document isn't good enough.

And as per my Google example, coming up with the right keywords to get the answers you want and then filtering the returned results is a skill in itself. Perhaps not worth €80k, but lots of people seem to be distinctly lacking said skills.

sponsoredwalk

I for one welcome the day when internet warriors will deem what is an apt
wage for jobs they know nothing about...

Son Of A Vidic

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what do they do to justify that level of pay exactly?

Nothing!

Chinafoot

It never ceases to amaze me just how many people think the being a librarian just involves issuing, discharging and shelving books.

As Seamus said librarians need to have a minimum of a hDip in Information and Library Studies and the only fulltime course available is in UCD. This means most do the course through distance learning, while working full time, in either Aberystwyth or Aberdeen.

Librarians need to be skilled when it comes to budgets, acquisitions, cataloguing and classification, managing staff, research and reference skills, events co-ordination, PR & Marketing.

Wompa1 wrote: »

But wouldn't they look at the books as they get them and categorize them into a database. That way when someone comes to them and asks for a book about something in particular they can do a query of the database using keywords...

That seemed to be how it worked in the college I went to. Everything was computerized. Granted the initial setup of the database would have been torture but at this stage most unis should be well past that.

Yes its all computerised but all of the information about every new book needs to be manually added to the catalogue. Its not a case of entering the title and author and you're done. Next time you're in your local library why not ask to see what a full catalogue record looks like and all of the information you see will have been manually entered by a librarian.

As far as I am aware there are a number of subject librarians in UCD and the Head Librarian is above all of these. You could liken it to a CEO of a company with managers in different departments.

My experience is with public libraries so I'm not going to assume to know about the University ones, but it appears to be a very different set up with an absolutely enormous amount of stock and staff.

Its actually quite saddening to see the libraries being targeted now.

Cookie_Monster

So they are effectively CEOs of a small company, that's fine. We all can understand the level of work and responsibility in that but 130k to manage a business that size is still huge money

Chinafoot

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

So they are effectively CEOs of a small company, that's fine. We all can understand the level of work and responsibility in that but 130k to manage a business that size is still huge money

Some information from Wiki

UCD Library dates from the establishment of University College Dublin (UCD) as a constituent college of the National University of Ireland in 1908. It supports the learning, teaching and research needs of some 24,000 students and academic staff in a wide range of disciplines including agriculture, architecture , arts and humanities, business studies, engineering, law, medicine, science, social sciences and veterinary medicine

The Library as a whole contains about 1,300,000 print volumes, with substantial collections in other print and non-print formats, including 400,000 e-books. Almost 80% of stock is on open access. Approximately 15,000 purchased monographs, and 2,500 donations or legal deposit items are added to stock each year, and 32,000 current journal titles and databases are available, the vast majority of which are e-journals. The Library is a European Documentation Centre, a national depository for United States government publications, and a legal deposit library for Irish publications. A small but significant holding of some 50,000 early printed books and special collections is housed in a separate bookstack with independent environmental control.

Staffing

There are 103 full-time permanent staff of whom 33 are professionally qualified librarians. These are supplemented by a further 80 contract staff The Library provides leadership, and office space, for the Irish Virtual Library and Archive Project, the aim of which is to provide a researcher-oriented web interface to the digitised content of separate repositories in UCD Library, UCD Archives, and the UCD School of Irish, Celtic, Studies, Irish Folklore and Linguistics. This is a five-year project (2004–2009) funded through the Programme for Research in Third-Level Institutions under the aegis of the UCD Humanities Institute of Ireland.

So yeah, there is a lot for the Head Librarian to oversee. If you think its too much money then fair enough. As somone in the public libraries I would never see money like that no matter how high up I go so I hope that people here understand the enormous difference between public and academic libraries. The amount of crap I get on a daily basis when I tell people what I do and the ridiculous levels of pay people assume I'm at boggles the mind. The ignorance is astounding.

Annasopra

Sure UCD has five of the top ten education earners in Ireland

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2010/1109/1224282950573.html

1 PROF DES FITZGERALD

Vice-president for research, UCD

€263,602


4 PROFESSOR TOM BEGLEY

Dean, School of Business, UCD

€231,575


5 PROFESSOR NICK QUIRKE

Principal, College of Engineering, Mathematical and Physical Sciences, UCD €227,659


7 DR HUGH BRADY (Joint 7th)

President, UCD

€212,755


10 EAMON DREA

Vice-president for staff, UCD

€202,913

who the fug

seamus wrote: »

But I think the payscales generally reflect the difficulty of getting people who have the relevant qualifications, as being a librarian is not seen as a cool job

Who says working with books is not cool

:mad:

RandolphEsq

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Sure UCD has five of the top ten education earners in Ireland

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2010/1109/1224282950573.html

1 PROF DES FITZGERALD

Vice-president for research, UCD

€263,602


4 PROFESSOR TOM BEGLEY

Dean, School of Business, UCD

€231,575


5 PROFESSOR NICK QUIRKE

Principal, College of Engineering, Mathematical and Physical Sciences, UCD €227,659


7 DR HUGH BRADY (Joint 7th)

President, UCD

€212,755


10 EAMON DREA

Vice-president for staff, UCD

€202,913

We are the best college in Ireland by a fair bit

amacachi

RandolphEsq wrote: »

We are the best college in Ireland by a fair bit

Course, why base such a claim on surveys when it can just be based on the amount of money being paid out and the losses made?

sponsoredwalk

amacachi wrote: »

Course, why base such a claim on surveys when it can just be based on the amount of money being paid out and the losses made?

There are surveys on this question? Any good links?

amacachi

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

There are surveys on this question? Any good links?

Check out any international rankings. Overall I think TCD just about edges UCD but to claim that one is the best "by a fair bit" is hilarious.

parker kent

It amazes me how ignorant some people in a university can be of what a librarian actually does.

syklops

parker kent wrote: »

It amazes me how ignorant some people in a university can be of what a librarian actually does.

Working in a university, you shoudn't be amazed at peoples ignorance any more. You haven't worked there long enough yet.

parker kent

sponsoredwalk wrote: »

There are surveys on this question? Any good links?

Have you never heard of any of these? They are pretty much referred to in most newspaper discussions of universities and Hugh Brady usually mentions how UCD has risen in almost every public utterance he makes. TCD is still higher on the rankings though.

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/

http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/home

parker kent

syklops wrote: »

Working in a university, you shoudn't be amazed at peoples ignorance any more. You haven't worked there long enough yet.

Oh I have been here long enough to know better. I'm not even going to bother getting into the library argument though!

sponsoredwalk

http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2010-2011/top-200.html

Trinity is 76, UCD is 94, seems UCD isn't ahead by a lot :P

Anybody know how to get into Harvard, CIT, MIT, Stanford or Princeton for free?

RandolphEsq

amacachi wrote: »

Course, why base such a claim on surveys when it can just be based on the amount of money being paid out and the losses made?

I'm basing it on my own study of the students in the other universities. Here is the footage . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGvD5OSkJ_Q

evercloserunion

amacachi wrote: »

Check out any international rankings. Overall I think TCD just about edges UCD but to claim that one is the best "by a fair bit" is hilarious.

TCD outranks UCD in most international rankings but both are pretty mediocre by international standards, so to attempt to justify those ridiculous earnings on the quality of the university is silly.