MEPs attack Irish corporate tax rate

Webmonkey

A row has broken out in the European Parliament over Ireland's 12.5% corporate tax rate.
It has emerged that eight mostly French and German MEPs have issued a declaration attacking Ireland's corporate tax rate and calling for a minimum EU-wide corporate tax rate of 25%.
What has heightened the dispute is the fact that the eight MEPs are all co-ordinators for the different political groupings in the parliament and are, as such, representatives for those groupings on an influential parliamentary committee.

The declaration invites signatures from other MEPs and if it can gather the support of 350 MEPs, it then becomes the position of the European Parliament.
The statement claims that European taxpayers and citizens have been put at risk 'in order to stabilise a financial system which has been profiting from the exceptionally low Irish corporation tax rate of 12.5%...'
It goes on to suggest that Ireland's corporate tax rate is unfair and goes against the spirit of European solidarity, especially given the fact Ireland is receiving a bailout.
The declaration concludes: 'We urge the European Commission to advance on the dossier of a Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base. We urge the European Commission, the Eurogroup and its members to ensure that the corporation tax rate will be increased to the average EU level of 25% in a spirit of solidarity.'

Irish MEPs are understood to be furious at the declaration given that, as co-ordinators on the Economic and Monetary Affairs Committee (ECON), they technically represent the same political groups of which Irish MEPs are members.
A spokesman for the influential ECON committee acknowledged the dispute, but insisted that the MEPs had issued the declaration in their personal capacity, and not as co-ordinators.
But this has been disputed by Fine Gael MEP Gay Mitchell.
It is understood Irish MEPs are to raise the matter with their own political groupings.

This morning the EU Commissioner for Taxation Algirdas Šemeta addressed the ECON committee to set out his work plan for 2011.
The European Commission is planning to propose a harmonisation of the corporate tax base. Known as the Common Consolidated Corporate Tax Base (CCCTB), it foresees a single set of rules to clarify in which of the 27 member states multinational companies and SMEs should have their profits declared for taxation purposes.
However, a spokeswoman for the Commission told RTÉ News that the Commission 'has absolutely no intention of introducing a minimum corporate tax rate of 25pc. It is not even in our competence under the European treaties to do so.'

Any Commission proposals concerning taxation, either the CCCTB or Corporate Tax, require unanimity, so Ireland retains a veto in this area.
The MEPs declaration was signed by the following: Jean-Paul Gauzes (EPP), Udo Bullmann (S&D), Sylvie Goulard (ALDE), Sven Giegold (Greens/EFA), Burkhard Balz (EPP), Leonardo Dominici (S&D), Wolf Klinz (ALDE) and Pascal Canfin (Greens/EFA).

Such a declaration is open to signatures for a three-month period. It appears unlikely the declaration would win the support of 350 MEPs, but it highlights the growing tensions over Ireland's corporate tax rate now that Ireland is receiving an EU bailout.

Source: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1130/eu_economy.html

domrush

I fuppin hate the EU

sensibleken

I laughed and stop reading when i got to the point of the tax being against 'European Solidarity'

Get fupped! theyre not going to get any more blood from this stone

also, in before someone tries to blame this on lisbon *rollseyes smiley face thing*

Drumpot

Call me a cynic, but I think the timing is very questionable considering it comes only a day after us signing up to a bailout that they were throwing at us . .

Scofflaw

A bit of a pointless exercise:

However a spokeswoman for the Commission told RTE that the Commission 'has absolutely no intention of introducing a minimum corporate tax rate of 25%. It is not even in our competence under the European treaties to do so,' she added.

Even if this proposal gathered the necessary signatures, it's still meaningless, since the Commission has no power to do anything about it even if it wanted to. Nor does the Parliament have any control over the bailout.

Political posturing - and the timing is of course related to the bailout, since the MEPs in question are objecting to us getting a bailout from their countries while retaining an advantageous CT rate.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Webmonkey

Drumpot wrote: »

Call me a cynic, but I think the timing is very questionable considering it comes only a day after us signing up to a bailout that they were throwing at us . .

They are my thoughts as well.

musings

I am firmly of the belief that its about time we pull out of this ridiculous European project. What started as a free trade agreement has spiralled out of all control.

I'm tired of Ireland being referred to as a minor player in the policy making of the union and this has become particularly noticeable since the EU went from 15 to 27. When we were 1 of 15 we had a whole lot more influence than being 1 of 27.

I say collapse the european deck of cards!!!

sensibleken

Webmonkey wrote: »

They are my thoughts as well.

well of course it is. theyve been gunning for this for years but dont have the ability, much to their annoyance, to do anything about it.

Its my opinion that some of the reason for a higher interest rate than from the imf is because they wanted a barganing chip to us to raise it

Scofflaw

sensibleken wrote: »

well of course it is. theyve been gunning for this for years but dont have the ability, much to their annoyance, to do anything about it.

Its my opinion that some of the reason for a higher interest rate than from the imf is because they wanted a barganing chip to us to raise it

Except that they'd either have had to make that one of the conditions of getting the money, or not, because that's the only way it could be done. It isn't part of the bailout conditions, and there's no mechanism for doing it any other way - which is why the MEPs are annoyed. This is their way of making their annoyance visible, but it doesn't mean any more than that, because there's no EU competence over direct taxes.

cordially,
Scofflaw

zig

sensibleken wrote: »

also, in before someone tries to blame this on lisbon *rollseyes smiley face thing*

But I thought Lisbon caused this whole financial crisis no?

censuspro

Pity our MEP's didn't point out that the "bailout" ,which we were pressured into applying for, is going to end up in French and German banks.

femur61

While I do agree Europe is dictaing to us but what is our alternative FF.

We have been bullied by our own since the inseption of the state, first the church, then the Haughy years, then the Bertie years. Only for the the EU most of our roads would not have been built, there is quality control on our foods, our farmers get subsidies of them.

We were conned by our own during the Celtic tiger years, the TD's gave themselves huge payrises. Unions did deals for votes.

I don't really blame them as over the years they have given us a lot. Also, they could just lower theres.

snubbleste

The fact that this move is coming from MEPs is worrying as these represent public opinion in their respective countries.
If I were a french or german taxpayer I'd be mad if my employer was redirecting their profits through a low corporate tax country instead of contributing higher taxes to my own country and improving public services.

tbh I see a minimum level of corporation tax being implemented across the EU in the next few years to prevent market distortion. The EU after all is a common market where no one should have any particular state sanctioned competitive advantage.

bleg

Grand, ye can match our VAT rates so lads.

Max Power1

femur61 wrote: »

While I do agree Europe is dictaing to us but what is our alternative FF.

We have been bullied by our own since the inseption of the state, first the church, then the Haughy years, then the Bertie years. Only for the the EU most of our roads would not have been built, there is quality control on our foods, our farmers get subsidies of them.

We were conned by our own during the Celtic tiger years, the TD's gave themselves huge payrises. Unions did deals for votes.

I don't really blame them as over the years they have given us a lot. Also, they could just lower theres.

exactly, its a free market.

snubbleste

bleg wrote: »

Grand, ye can match our VAT rates so lads.

Already happened. There is a minimum 15% Vat rate.

Monty Burnz

Chalk up another score for the Fianna Failure government - they **** our economy, and they secure 'guarantees' that turn out to be worthless in Lisbon 2.

ixtlan

Firstly to repeat the points already made by others.

Taxations matters are outside the remit of the EU treaties. We have a veto on any changes.

This is a statement of irritation by the MEPs involved, who see us as getting a bailout from their taxpayers (while we ironically seem to think we are getting screwed), at the same time that we undercut their economies, and at the same time that we maintain high levels of public spending but refuse to tax corporations at what they see as reasonable levels.

It's also worth noting that there are several states with lower corp tax rates, and several more which are over ours but under 25%.

Now, if I put on my rain/insult proof gear and prepare for the assault... I think all commentators would agree that at this moment in time we cannot touch our rate. Considering our precarious enconomic position we can't do anything to endanger foreign employers located here.

However... we as a nation and a people need to really think about this issue and consider moving to a different frame of reference at some point in the future, maybe 5-10 years out.

Is there something wrong with the idea that companies should pay reasonable levels of tax? What is a reasonable level? Is it right that this is the "cornerstone of our industrial policy" rather than a cornerstone of an educated flexible competitative workforce in a business friendly environment?

The Me Fein attitude says that companies paying less tax in total is fine as long as we get a bigger share of the jobs. Who cares about other states. That's all very well until say the UK decides to cut corp tax to 10% and companies start to abandon us to go there... it could happen. What would we say then?

As I said there should be no change now, and maybe you need to give notice of 5 years before making a small change even, but this national obsession we have cultivated with the corp tax rate is getting a little distasteful to me. To see even Sinn Fein say the tax rate must be untouched is getting a little ridiculous. And believe me I am by no means left-wing myself, but I do see the argument of those MEPs. If the current Irish logic was applied across Europe we would have a race to the bottom with states cutting services to allow them to lower their rates. Obviously it worked for us, but only when we were in the minority. If all the states had the same attitude things would be much more difficult.

Anyhow... just something to think about.

ix.

Dirk Gently

The statement claims that European taxpayers and citizens have been put at risk 'in order to stabilise a financial system which has been profiting from the exceptionally low Irish corporation tax rate of 12.5%...'
It goes on to suggest that Ireland's corporate tax rate is unfair and goes against the spirit of European solidarity, especially given the fact Ireland is receiving a bailout.

As irrelevant as the whole exercise is, and as irrelevant as the elected MEP's in general are, I wouldn't mind seeing an Irish MEP counter statement just for the sake of popcorn and lulz.

something like....

Irish taxpayers and citizens have been put at risk 'in order to stabilise a financial system which has been profiting from reckless lending at low interest rates with a perceived no risk on the part of the reckless lender ...'
It could go on to suggest that Ireland's penal rate of interest is unfair and goes against the spirit of European solidarity, especially given the fact that the euro is receiving a bailout, despite ultimately digging its own grave and Irish tax payers will be paying for our european friends failed financial decisions.

Just for the craic of course as the european parliament is about as useful as an ashtray on my motorbike.



on a serious note I agree with the poster above. In the long run low corporation tax to attract MNC's is a false economy and the more we rely on it the more we avoid doing the necessary and growing our own indigenous and sustainable economy. Short term we have to keep it low, even lower it a percent or 2 but medium to long term we should of course increase it and become less reliant on MNC's. There should also be scope for preferential rates based on long term commitments by MNC's or a ring fencing of some of the intake (beyond 12.5%) for providing services beneficial to both the company and community (training / courses / infrastructure and transport services for of workers or goods etc).

Leiva

Shower of c u next Thursday if you ask me .

annoyingbeast

E.U can **** off, its pretty much foreign rule and a 4th reich, im serious, germany pretty much control it with france. sooner we leave the better

sensibleken

zig wrote: »

But I thought Lisbon caused this whole financial crisis no?

yes. it has a self amending article which amended itself to steal the republics cars and to enter a declaration that says Mary McAleese is a slag

RichardAnd

The more I read, the more I see how petty and insidious Europeans really are.

swampgas

RichardAnd wrote: »

The more I read, the more I see how petty and insidious Europeans really are.

Pot, meet Kettle

Empire o de Sun

annoyingbeast wrote: »

E.U can **** off, its pretty much foreign rule and a 4th reich, im serious, germany pretty much control it with france. sooner we leave the better

please explain how!

Empire o de Sun

RichardAnd wrote: »

The more I read, the more I see how petty and insidious Europeans really are.

I assume Irish people are included in that statement.

When the s**t hits the fan, people can be insidious, not necessarily one group of people.

View

RichardAnd wrote: »

The more I read, the more I see how petty and insidious Europeans really are.

Indeed we are - that is why Ireland fits in so well.

viclemronny

zig wrote: »

But I thought Lisbon caused this whole financial crisis no?

No, see Lisbon was about making it law that Europeans could pay our aborted foetuses €2 an hour when they were conscripted into the European super-army, the one they were going to use to stop us speaking Irish.

On Topic: They can attack all they like, but the most a declaration is going to get them is a formal statement of something we know the think anyway, namely that they think our CT rate is too low.

In fairness, it is. We'd be furious if another European country was undercutting us on costs of doing business, hell we already moan about 'polishes taking are jabs'.

CT should not be the sacred cow that it is, it should be part of a package that attracts foreign investment.

rathmaniacal

They can't really do much about our tax rate. In any case Europe has bigger problems on its hands, namely the ability of Portugal, Spain, Belgium, and Italy to continue to borrow. In the end, I reckon it will come down to a combination of default, some coutries leaving the Euro, money printing, and/or yet another loss of credibility for both the Euro and the EU as it slips towards irrelevance. A buch of non-entity MEPs can make as much noise as they want about the CT and pretend that they are not acting in their own national interest, but this will do nothing to reverse the path of decline on which the EU finds itself. Already my friends in China are sending me joke emails about how silly the Irish and European leaders are- I would like to disagree but they are correct.

SkepticOne

viclemronny wrote: »

In fairness, it is. We'd be furious if another European country was undercutting us on costs of doing business, hell we already moan about 'polishes taking are jabs'.

I don' think that's a fair characterisation. Can you point to any article or any sort of media where Irish government figures (i.e. not some cranky trade unionist) has called for curbs on the sort of low wages or other incentives offered in Poland even after the likes of Dell moved their operation there.

SkepticOne

Scofflaw wrote: »

Except that they'd either have had to make that one of the conditions of getting the money, or not, because that's the only way it could be done. It isn't part of the bailout conditions, and there's no mechanism for doing it any other way - which is why the MEPs are annoyed. This is their way of making their annoyance visible, but it doesn't mean any more than that, because there's no EU competence over direct taxes.

Our refusal to negotiate on the corporation tax issue may be reflected in the extremely high interest charged by the EU portion of the bailout making the IMF look like Santa.

Scofflaw

SkepticOne wrote: »

Our refusal to negotiate on the corporation tax issue may be reflected in the extremely high interest charged by the EU portion of the bailout making the IMF look like Santa.

I'll be interested to see the actual details of the rates, but as far as I know they won't be published until and if the Budget is passed.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Lemming

SkepticOne wrote: »

Our refusal to negotiate on the corporation tax issue may be reflected in the extremely high interest charged by the EU portion of the bailout making the IMF look like Santa.

Or that Merkel has been under intense pressure at home to appear "tough" ever since the Greek bailout, and basically Ireland is being screwed for a high interest rate on the back of parish pump politics albeit at an international level.

hinault

By having to borrow from the ERSF, the subject of our corporation tax rate was bound to come in to question.
The people guaranteeing these loans and providing these funds to Ireland Inc are entitled to ask the question.

As a country we need to be able to put forward a case which shows that securing the current rate is in everyones interest including our own and the Eurozone.

This "them and us" attitude especially from our side (and you only have to read Dermot Aherns comments about guns being out to peoples heads) will not resolve our own domestic woes and it certainly will not gain us any buy in from the only people prepared to bail us out at the moment.

SkepticOne

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'll be interested to see the actual details of the rates, but as far as I know they won't be published until and if the Budget is passed.

We have an idea of the IMF rate, it is 3% rising to 4% under certain conditions. The overall European rate is coming out at 5.8%. The bilateral portion of the Europe figure is fairly small so the multilateral element is also likely to be 5.8% or thereabouts. Whatever way you play it, it is far worse than the IMF rate.

SkepticOne

Lemming wrote: »

Or that Merkel has been under intense pressure at home to appear "tough" ever since the Greek bailout, and basically Ireland is being screwed for a high interest rate on the back of parish pump politics albeit at an international level.

It is obviously various local agendas at work. I would include the corporation tax issue as part of this but I agree not the whole story. But the interesting thing is that when Germany or France pursue their national interests, that's "European". When we do the same, it's selfish nationalism.

femur61

I do think it rally is up to individual countries to set their own CT. But our low rate didn't keep Dell here, why did they move? Wages for one were lower, obviously our low CT tax isn't an incentive alone. Min wage really needs to be addressed.

sirromo

I remember during the Lisbon treaty referendum, the yes side over-emphasised the importance of "good-will" towards Ireland and how this would be negatively impacted if we voted no. I would imagine that our refusal to do anything about corporation tax over the next few years could have even worse consequences for "good-will".

The mean-spirited tone of that statement is worth quoting

The statement claims that European taxpayers and citizens have been put at risk 'in order to stabilise a financial system which has been profiting from the exceptionally low Irish corporation tax rate of 12.5%...'

It goes on to suggest that Ireland's corporate tax rate is unfair and goes against the spirit of European solidarity, especially given the fact Ireland is receiving a bailout.

Even if they can't force us to raise our corporation tax, if they do manage to get the required number of signatures and if this does become the official position of the European parliament then we I would expect it will become much more difficult for our representatives do business in Brussels.

dan_d

The argument is that if our corporation tax rate is on the table for discussion, then the tax rate of every other country has to be aswell. It's only fair. But you try telling the French and Germans that.

I find this worrying. The whole situation. Can someone please explain to me whether our bailout is coming from the IMF or the EU? It is the EU, isn't it? Technically I suppose that means they should have some say in policies like this, but I think we've left ourselves wide open and our politicians haven't the guts to tell the EU to feck off.What Europe is completely ignoring is that we are a tiny country. In terms of these MNCs - seriously, there must be a tiny percentage located here. What does Europe think will happen...they'll all magically relocate to other countries if our tax rate is raised? I'd imagine the furthest most of them will go is the UK - which of course, the Brits would be delighted with, but won't do either France or Germany much good. Surely we are too small to have a genuine impact in terms of MNCs?

I do, however, also think that we are being used as some sort of pawn in Angela Merkel's political games in her own country. That, I don't appreciate at all.

Scofflaw

SkepticOne wrote: »

It is obviously various local agendas at work. I would include the corporation tax issue as part of this but I agree not the whole story. But the interesting thing is that when Germany or France pursue their national interests, that's "European". When we do the same, it's selfish nationalism.

Or the other way round - when we do it, we have 'the balls to stand up to Europe', and when other European countries do it, it's 'bullying' and 'imperialism'. Unless of course they're doing something we agree with, in which case it's a vindication of our position.

It's even possible for someone to claim that when taxpayers in other European countries grudge pouring money into an Irish bailout - when we won't even tax the companies we've attracted here from their countries - they're "mean-spirited". Equally, it's clearly an absolute outrage that we should have to stump up money for our own bailout from the NPRF. The Beal Bocht is far from dead!

amused,
Scofflaw

sarumite

SkepticOne wrote: »

Our refusal to negotiate on the corporation tax issue may be reflected in the extremely high interest charged by the EU portion of the bailout making the IMF look like Santa.

My understanding was that the cost borrowing money has increased since the Greek bailout, hence the increased interest rate.

censuspro

Scofflaw wrote: »

Or the other way round - when we do it, we have 'the balls to stand up to Europe', and when other European countries do it, it's 'bullying' and 'imperialism'. Unless of course they're doing something we agree with, in which case it's a vindication of our position.

It's even possible for someone to claim that when taxpayers in other European countries grudge pouring money into an Irish bailout - when we won't even tax the companies we've attracted here from their countries - they're "mean-spirited". Equally, it's clearly an absolute outrage that we should have to stump up money for our own bailout from the NPRF. The Beal Bocht is far from dead!

amused,
Scofflaw

I don't think everyone would agree on your take on the Irish bailout, the majority of which will just reroute it's way back to France and Germany.

What multi national companies have we attracted from France and Germany?

As you have pointed out repeatedly on this forum, there is nothing to prevent France and Germany lowering their CT. The other point that people fail to mention in relation to the CT rate is that France and Germany are looking to increase the rate of tax when companies are trying to reduce costs. This does absolutely nothing to attract investment within the EU especially at a time when companies are moving their operations to places like India and Asia. If France and Germany want a harmonised tax rate then lets have a 12.5% harmonised tax rate.

ixtlan

censuspro wrote: »

As you have pointed out repeatedly on this forum, there is nothing to prevent France and Germany lowering their CT. The other point that people fail to mention in relation to the CT rate is that France and Germany are looking to increase the rate of tax when companies are trying to reduce costs. This does absolutely nothing to attract investment within the EU especially at a time when companies are moving their operations to places like India and Asia. If France and Germany want a harmonised tax rate then lets have a 12.5% harmonised tax rate.

All true... but we constantly look at the employee/citizen benefits in Germany and France and bemoan the fact that ours are not so good. We want better health and education services. We say why can't we be like them?!

Part of the reason they can afford (actually even for them there's a question mark over affordability but let's put that aside) such better services is that their taxes are higher.

You seem to be suggesting a race to the bottom for corporate taxes. Let them cut taxes! Let them all have zero taxes for corporations! Obviously there is a balance to be struck here. If all the states took our mentality we would end up with companies paying almost no tax while public services were cut from lack of funding. That's not the world I want to live in.... and yes, in Ireland that is now the world I am living in, but I don't want to export our situation to everyone else.

Ix.

ixtlan

sirromo wrote: »

The mean-spirited tone of that statement is worth quoting

The statement claims that European taxpayers and citizens have been put at risk 'in order to stabilise a financial system which has been profiting from the exceptionally low Irish corporation tax rate of 12.5%...'

It goes on to suggest that Ireland's corporate tax rate is unfair and goes against the spirit of European solidarity, especially given the fact Ireland is receiving a bailout.

In the eye of the beholder... Surely every sane person would agree with the first section at least? The money will be provided by European taxpayers and citizens. That money is at risk, since almost every economic pundit is saying that we risk default at some point in the future. The Irish state has benefited from the low corp tax rate. It is a low tax rate compared to most other states (though to say exceptional is not quite true).

It also curious to read so many posters here dismissing the idea of Euro solidarity on our part, while at the same time suggesting the the EU interest rate (which is already much lower than what the markets would provide) is an example of a lack of Euro solidarity. So which is it? Should the other states provide, as I heard one pundit on TV suggest, a 2% 10 year loan? And if they did would you return the favour by increasing CT?

Ix.

Scofflaw

censuspro wrote: »

I don't think everyone would agree on your take on the Irish bailout, the majority of which will just reroute it's way back to France and Germany.

What multi national companies have we attracted from France and Germany?

The answers to those questions are related, since of the €130bn regularly claimed as "owed by Irish banks to German banks" - which is presumably the money that's supposed to reroute its way back to Germany - €100bn is actually just money held by German bank subsidiaries in Ireland but on loan elsewhere.

Nor is most of the bailout money for the banks - most of it (€50bn) is for the State borrowing that results from the deficit. Even the money that is being put into the banks won't be going anywhere - it's recapitalisation money.

censuspro wrote: »

As you have pointed out repeatedly on this forum, there is nothing to prevent France and Germany lowering their CT. The other point that people fail to mention in relation to the CT rate is that France and Germany are looking to increase the rate of tax when companies are trying to reduce costs. This does absolutely nothing to attract investment within the EU especially at a time when companies are moving their operations to places like India and Asia. If France and Germany want a harmonised tax rate then lets have a 12.5% harmonised tax rate.

The problem is that you can't run European levels of social spending on that low a tax rate. Nor could we, if it comes to it - we dropped the rate to 12.5% only in 2003, by which time the government was already busily taxing the property bubble to provide its revenues. That's not a sustainable model, even for a small economy like ours - as, indeed, we can currently see.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw

ixtlan wrote: »

In the eye of the beholder... Surely every sane person would agree with the first section at least? The money will be provided by European taxpayers and citizens. That money is at risk, since almost every economic pundit is saying that we risk default at some point in the future. The Irish state has benefited from the low corp tax rate. It is a low tax rate compared to most other states (though to say exceptional is not quite true).

It also curious to read so many posters here dismissing the idea of Euro solidarity on our part, while at the same time suggesting the the EU interest rate (which is already much lower than what the markets would provide) is an example of a lack of Euro solidarity. So which is it? Should the other states provide, as I heard one pundit on TV suggest, a 2% 10 year loan? And if they did would you return the favour by increasing CT?

Ix.

I'm reluctant to point that out too often, but it seems indeed to be the Irish model of 'solidarity' - "what's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine too". We operate it at the national level - "of course we need budget cuts, but not ones that affect me" - as well as the international. They're putting their taxes on the line for our state spending over the next four years, and we get our noses in a sling because they think maybe we could raise the taxes we charge businesses, and should only be charging us a rate far below what they'll have to pay to get that money, even though we're all talking about how we should default on our debts.

I've said it before - cheeky isn't in it. A lot of people are still living in the bubble.

cordially,
Scofflaw

K-9

Scofflaw wrote: »

I'm reluctant to point that out too often, but it seems indeed to be the Irish model of 'solidarity' - "what's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine too". We operate it at the national level - "of course we need budget cuts, but not ones that affect me" - as well as the international. They're putting their taxes on the line for our state spending over the next four years, and we get our noses in a sling because they think maybe we could raise the taxes we charge businesses, and should only be charging us a rate far below what they'll have to pay to get that money, even though we're all talking about how we should default on our debts.

I've said it before - cheeky isn't in it. A lot of people are still living in the bubble.

cordially,
Scofflaw

It really is disheartening that we've seemed to learn nothing from this mess.

meglome

K-9 wrote: »

It really is disheartening that we've seemed to learn nothing from this mess.

If the amount of blaming of the EU and the Lisbon treaty is anything to go by we really haven't.

Martin 2

Scofflaw wrote: »

....
The problem is that you can't run European levels of social spending on that low a tax rate. Nor could we, if it comes to it - we dropped the rate to 12.5% only in 2003, by which time the government was already busily taxing the property bubble to provide its revenues. That's not a sustainable model, even for a small economy like ours - as, indeed, we can currently see.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Scofflaw, just on a point of information, there was a 10% CT rate on manufacturing from the early 80s and it was raised to 12.5% in the 2000s at the same time as the higher rates of CT on traded services were reduced to 12.5%. Virtually all large MNC employers came to Ireland on the 10 or 12.5% CT rates.
Agree with the rest of your point but in Ireland's case would prefer if the higher tax was on individuals rather than corporations.

Scofflaw

Martin 2 wrote: »

Scofflaw, just on a point of information, there was a 10% CT rate on manufacturing from the early 80s and it was raised to 12.5% in the 2000s at the same time as the higher rates of CT on traded services were reduced to 12.5%. Virtually all large MNC employers came to Ireland on the 10 or 12.5% CT rates.

Thanks - I appreciate the correction!

Martin 2 wrote: »

Agree with the rest of your point but in Ireland's case would prefer if the higher tax was on individuals rather than corporations.

Given that the preamble to the 4-year plan contains a statement that Fianna Fáil raised the percentage of workers outside the income tax net to 45%, and that they tout this as an 'achievement' - and given their enduring popularity with the Irish electorate - I have to say that's an issue we're not likely to approach rationally, I'm afraid.

On the other hand, the fact that we've successfully defended the 12.5% rate means that the tax gap will have to be closed some other way...

cordially,
Scofflaw

sirromo

ixtlan wrote:

It also curious to read so many posters here dismissing the idea of Euro solidarity on our part

I dismiss any idea of European solidarity that involves us raising our corporation tax at a time when we have hundreds of thousands of people out of work. Raising our corporation tax rate would mean putting thousands of jobs at risk and it would make our recovery almost impossible.

ixtlan wrote:

the EU interest rate (which is already much lower than what the markets would provide)

Is it lower than what the IMF would provide?

ixtlan wrote:

And if they did would you return the favour by increasing CT?

Absolutely not.

Would you be in favour of us raising our corporation tax rate in return for a better bailout deal?

Scofflaw wrote:

They're putting their taxes on the line for our state spending

And to save the euro.