Sinn Fein To Sue Fianna Fail For Un-Constitutional Actions! (This Is Getting Messy)

UsernameInUse

Sinn Féin is considering a legal challenge to the Government's decision not to put the EU/IMF bailout deal to a Dáil vote.

The party said that the Government is acting unconstitutionally in its failure to allow TDs to have their say on the deal.

Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams said: "Any new government should refuse to honour the terms of the IMF/EU deal and Sinn Féin will seek a mandate in the General Election to renegotiate it.''

"This Government has no mandate to impose the terrible deal it has negotiated with the IMF and EU.''

Source; http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/sf-may-take-govt-to-court-over-bailout-deal-483858.html

Sinn Fein are leading the front line yet again!

First, it was the DonegalSW elections, the no confidence motion and now this!

Seriously, WHY ARE LABOUR AND FINE GAEL EVEN REGISTERED PARTIES

ABSOLUTELY USELESS.

PomBear

Well done SF, the only party with a bit of backbone it seems.

paky

fare play to sinn fein

The Volt

Fair play to them for being pro-active. Shame I'd never ever trust them with a vote though.

As much as I'm not a fan of Sinn Fein, it is nice to see an opposition party actually being in opposition!

keane2097

I'm glad somebody did it, whatever you think about the Shinners, fair play imo.

Notorious97

Fair play to them, im hoping to see them do well in the next election. The country is in shi*e order, hopefully they can continue to challenge the government on issues successfully. FG and Labour are both a joke, i rank them with FF to be honest. I see Darmot Ahern was also taking shots at Gerry Adams for announcing he will run in Louth. FF are traitors to this country, they should be remembered for that. Im by no means a fan of Dev, never could stand reading about him etc, but God im sure he is spinning in his grave looking at what that party is up to and how they have sold us off.

Yitzhak Rabin

I've lumped my fair share of criticism on Sinn Féin, but they are the only ones here actually doing as they say and not just sounding off for the sake of it.

FG and Labour are both talking about how this is a terrible deal and how they are against, yet when it comes to doing something about they are quite content to do nothing...

Pat Rabitte has been repeating his mantra about how this government is putting the next government in a 'straight-jacket', well I must say he looks rather comfortable in that straight-jacket...

paky

the country needs a leader like gerry adams. its obvious hes not in it for the money unlike the rest of the partys

sensibleken

They aren't the only ones.

Pat Rabbitte was saying the exact same thing in the times today

PomBear

sensibleken wrote: »

They aren't the only ones.

Pat Rabbitte was saying the exact same thing in the times today

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1130/1224284430805.html

much like Gilmore he sounds like alot of buzzwords and no action

Chucky the tree

PomBear wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1130/1224284430805.html

much like Gilmore he sounds like alot of buzzwords and no action

Compared to Gerry Adams all action words?

sensibleken

PomBear wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1130/1224284430805.html

much like Gilmore he sounds like a buzzwords and no action

I dont think so. He's asking for clarrification from the government on the status of this agreement. Its fair to find out the legal status of something before mounting a legal challenge.

I wonder who came up with this first Labour or Sinn Fein. Either way I hope to god it succeeds whoever bring it

sensibleken

paky wrote: »

the country needs a leader like gerry adams. its obvious hes not in it for the money unlike the rest of the partys

I dont know. Maybe someone just emailed him this and he has seen how much he can make

https://spreadsheets.google.com/lv?key=twFxqrCK_ddeI2rKYJqAL-Q&authkey=CI2sy_wK&type=view&gid=0&f=true&sortcolid=-1&sortasc=true&rowsperpage=250

steelcityblues

It's clear that Labour under Gilmore have took the working-class vote at the next election for granted long ago, and the signs are starting to emerge that they could be in for a shock come election weekend!

PomBear

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Compared to Gerry Adams all action words?

Did himself and Pearse Doherty not sucessfully just bring a by election to Donegal SW after the seat was vacant 18 months?

Raskolnikov

Sometimes, you have to hit yourself over the head at just how ridiculous the situation has become. A private institution runs itself into the ground, and we have EU/IMF mandarins coming in and telling us that we must be responsible for their debt. The laughable thing is that we have our two major political parties agreeing that Irish people should die on waiting lists, our children should forego a better education and anyone who can afford it, must stump up thousands in the form of higher taxation? Do they seriously think we're gullible enough to plunge ourselves into a decade of misery and depression to cover other peoples debts?

Fair play to Sinn Féin on this. I don't like them, but I am seriously coming around to the opinion that we simply tell Europe to go to blazes, and to let them take their lumps on their shítty debts that their insolvent banks made to us.

UsernameInUse

steelcityblues wrote: »

It's clear that Labour under Gilmore have took the working-class vote at the next election for granted long ago, and the signs are starting to emerge that they could be in for a shock come election weekend!

Agreed.

Labour have handed over thousands of votes to Sinn Fein on this. While Gilmore's party are bracketed with Fine Gael (all talk and NO action), Sinn Fein have been walking the walk and banging down the door for a few weeks now.

I'd hurl Labour, FG and FF into the same category at this stage - this is EXACTLY WHAT IRELAND DOES NOT NEED. Different faces, same status quo. It seems Labour don't want to rock the comfy establisment boat.

Sinn Fein want to turn this country on its head and bring Ireland into the 21st century.

Chucky the tree

PomBear wrote: »

Did himself and Pearse Doherty not sucessfully just bring a by election to Donegal SW after the seat was vacant 18 months?

Yes, but no where in the OP or the link does he say anything about mounting a legal challenge.

PomBear

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Yes, but no where in the OP or the link does he say anything about mounting a legal challenge.

says it in headline of the link lad.

Also I thought you were saying Gerry Adams was all talk and no action?
The man who pretty much on his own turned the Republicans around to the peace process is all talk and no action? Back to the drawing board for you

danbohan

Raskolnikov wrote: »

Sometimes, you have to hit yourself over the head at just how ridiculous the situation has become. A private institution runs itself into the ground, and we have EU/IMF mandarins coming in and telling us that we must be responsible for their debt. The laughable thing is that we have our two major political parties agreeing that Irish people should die on waiting lists, our children should forego a better education and anyone who can afford it, must stump up thousands in the form of higher taxation? Do they seriously think we're gullible enough to plunge ourselves into a decade of misery and depression to cover other peoples debts?

Fair play to Sinn Féin on this. I don't like them, but I am seriously coming around to the opinion that we simply tell Europe to go to blazes, and to let them take their lumps on their shítty debts that their insolvent banks made to us.

and that little 19billion a year we need to borrow to fund the bloated public service and sw payments will come from ?

Bogger77

Wonder can we sue Sinn Fein for the unconstitutional and treasonable actions and murders committed by it's members since 1970?

Chucky the tree

PomBear wrote: »

says it in headline of the link lad.

Also I thought you were saying Gerry Adams was all talk and no action?
The man who pretty much on his own turned the Republicans around to the peace process is all talk and no action? Back to the drawing board for you

Oh, well if it says in the headline then it must be true! How silly of me, now I'm off to read The news of the world so I can find out lots of other true stories by reading their headlines!

When it comes to this issue he doesn't even seem to be all talk as he hasn't even mentioned mounting a legal challenge. Who knows though? Maybe he wrote the article and headline himself...

Raskolnikov

danbohan wrote: »

and that little 19billion a year we need to borrow to fund the bloated public service and sw payments will come from ?

€34 billion is being used to "save" Anglo, that'll do the trick.

UsernameInUse

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Oh, well if it says in the headline then it must be true! How silly of me, now I'm off to read The news of the world so I can find out lots of other true stories by reading their headlines!

When it comes to this issue he doesn't even seem to be all talk as he hasn't even mentioned mounting a legal challenge. Who knows though? Maybe he wrote the article and headline himself...

Your hatred to new ideas is becoming more and more absurd.

Back in your cage!

CiaranC

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Labour have handed over thousands of votes to Sinn Fein on this. While Gilmore's party are bracketed with Fine Gael (all talk and NO action), Sinn Fein have been walking the walk and banging down the door for a few weeks now.

They havent actually done anything yet though, have they?

PomBear

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Oh, well if it says in the headline then it must be true! How silly of me, now I'm off to read The news of the world so I can find out lots of other true stories by reading their headlines!

When it comes to this issue he doesn't even seem to be all talk as he hasn't even mentioned mounting a legal challenge. Who knows though? Maybe he wrote the article and headline himself...

it's funny how you couldn't address the second part of my post but anyways... if you know anything about media, when the headline is unquoted it is speculative, speculative to the point where it could be fully true and the quote isn't there, it could be a party source this is coming from, it could be a Pat Rabbitte job:rolleyes: or it could be nothing at all and completely made up

but with SF being the only to a bring high court case against this government, what would your and most other peoples money be on if it is true or false?

Southsider1

CiaranC wrote: »

They havent actually done anything yet though, have they?

What? Apart from challenging the Government through the Courts to force a By Election? They've done more, in fairness to them, than any of the rest. and I never thought I'd be praising Sinn Fein.

Chucky the tree

PomBear wrote: »

it's funny how you couldn't address the second part of my post but anyways... if you know anything about media, when the headline is unquoted it is speculative, speculative to the point where it could be fully true and the quote isn't there, it could be a party source this is coming from, it could be a Pat Rabbitte job:rolleyes: or it could be nothing at all and completely made up

but with SF being the only to a bring high court case against this government, what would your and most other peoples money be on if it is true or false?

This thread is about Sinn Fein supposedly mounting a legal challenge, what Gerry Adams has done for the peace process nothing to do with it. So far on this issue Gerry Adams is just like Gilmore, in that he is all talk and no action. In fact, he is not even talk as I can't find him actually mentioning anything about mounting a legal challenge.


I don't think they will bring it to the High court. I can only guess the OP make a mistake in putting an exclamation mark in the title instead of a question mark.

UsernameInUse

Chucky the tree wrote: »

This thread is about Sinn Fein supposedly mounting a legal challenge, what Gerry Adams has done for the peace process nothing to do with it. So far on this issue Gerry Adams is just like Gilmore, in that he is all talk and no action. In fact, he is not even talk as I can't find him actually mentioning anything about mounting a legal challenge.


I don't think they will bring it to the High court. I can only guess the OP make a mistake in putting an exclamation mark in the title instead of a question mark.

Taking FF/Greens to court and winning in Donegal SW is neither posturing nor "considering" but acting successfully and because history tells us a tale of Sinn Fein being active and walking the walk in these matters I fully believe in them to go through with this more so than Labour.

Fair play to Sinn Fein for standing up against the right-wing and their cosy cartel of Labour, Fine Gael and Fianna Fail; a government that refused to hold elections and take democracy away from the people, while the other parties sat on their hands - today is a great day for democracy and the Shinners are running with the torch, solo.

nyarlothothep

It will be interesting to see how this "treaty of versailles" bailout package plays out, suddenly a party on the fringe doesn't seem so unnapealing now does it? Note I'm not comparing SF to you know who but the parallels if they came to pass would be striking.

PomBear

Chucky the tree wrote: »

This thread is about Sinn Fein supposedly mounting a legal challenge, what Gerry Adams has done for the peace process nothing to do with it. So far on this issue Gerry Adams is just like Gilmore, in that he is all talk and no action. In fact, he is not even talk as I can't find him actually mentioning anything about mounting a legal challenge.


I don't think they will bring it to the High court. I can only guess the OP make a mistake in putting an exclamation mark in the title instead of a question mark.

So Gerry Adams is all talk and no action yet his role in the peace process and the Donegal SW case? You made a claim which you cannot back up/proved wrong on, true or false?

Chucky the tree

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Taking FF/Greens to court and winning in Donegal SW is neither posturing nor "considering" but acting successfully and because history tells us a tale of Sinn Fein being active and walking the walk in these matters I fully believe in them to go through with this more so than Labour.

Fair play to Sinn Fein for standing up against the right-wing and their cosy cartel of Labour, Fine Gael and Fianna Fail; a government that refused to hold elections and take democracy away from the people, while the other parties sat on their hands - today is a great day for democracy and the Shinners are running with the torch, solo.

So we should expect a new campaign of terrorism by the IRA if Sinn Fein don't get what they are looking for? I mean if we're basing this on history.

Verance

What's unconstitutional? Borrowing money?

PomBear

Chucky the tree wrote: »

So we should expect a new campaign of terrorism by the IRA if Sinn Fein don't get what they are looking for? I mean if we're basing this on history.

You could say the same of FF and FG who had members in the IRA because "they didn't have their own way". If you're basing this on history that is.....

Chucky the tree

PomBear wrote: »

So Gerry Adams is all talk and no action yet his role in the peace process and the Donegal SW case? You made a claim which you cannot back up/proved wrong on, true or false?

When it comes to mounting a legal challenge against the bailout Gerry Adams is all talk and no action so far.

PomBear wrote: »

You could say the same of FF and FG who had members in the IRA because "they didn't have their own way". If you're basing this on history that is.....

Probably the reason why basing things on history is a bit stupid.

PomBear

Verance wrote: »

What's unconstitutional? Borrowing money?

Under article 29.5.2 of the Constitution, the terms of all internationa...l agreements which impose a charge on public funds and are not of a technical and administrative character must be approved by Dáil Éireann prior to the Government agreeing to the State being bound by it.

In Irish treaty practice, therefore,

(a) if the terms of an international agreement would impose a charge on public funds, approval of Dáil Éireann is first sought in accordance with article 29.5.2° of the Constitution

(b) thereafter (or as a first step in the case of an international agreement which would not impose a charge upon public funds), a Government decision authorising signature, ratification or accession is sought in accordance with article 29.4.1° of the Constitution

(c) a further Government decision authorising ratification is required in the case of international agreement approved subject to ratification

(d) when the State has consented to be bound by an international agreement and it has entered into force, it is laid before Dáil Éireann in accordance with Article 29.5.1° of the Constitution.

(e) The Minister for Foreign Affairs will also arrange for the agreement to be registered with the United Nations pursuant to Article 102 of the Charter of the United Nations.

Also it's pretty unconstitutional bailing out private business while you cut pensions, schools and hospitals.

PomBear

Chucky the tree wrote: »

When it comes to mounting a legal challenge against the bailout Gerry Adams is all talk and no action so far.

lol, we'll see because chances are, there is substance to this story.

Has he been all talk and no action before in your opinion?

wolfpawnat

Verance wrote: »

What's unconstitutional? Borrowing money?

Borrowing money that indebts the country internationally using public funds WITHOUT putting it to a Dáil vote, yes. That is unconstitutional!


29.5.2 of the Constitution of Ireland:

"The State shall not be bound by any international agreement involving a charge upon public funds unless the terms of the agreement shall have been approved by Dáil Éireann."

http://www.constitution.ie/reports/C...nofIreland.pdf


Go on the Shinners!!!

Only people with balls these days apparently!

phantom_lord

PomBear wrote: »

Also it's pretty unconstitutional bailing out private business while you cut pensions, schools and hospitals.

Under what article?

phantom_lord

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Borrowing money that indebts the country internationally using public funds WITHOUT putting it to a Dáil vote, yes. That is unconstitutional!


29.5.2 of the Constitution of Ireland:

"The State shall not be bound by any international agreement involving a charge upon public funds unless the terms of the agreement shall have been approved by Dáil Éireann."

http://www.constitution.ie/reports/C...nofIreland.pdf


Go on the Shinners!!!

Only people with balls these days apparently!

The bailout agreement isn't an international agreement in this context.

Really can't see how SF have any basis for action here.

Chucky the tree

PomBear wrote: »

lol, we'll see because chances are, there is substance to this story.

Has he been all talk and no action before in your opinion?

Well, I'm sure they could well be considering legal action, so are Labour. But the title of the thread and the link is wrong. There's been times when he's followed through with what he's said alright.

wolfpawnat

phantom_lord wrote: »

The bailout agreement isn't an international agreement in this context.

Really can't see how SF have any basis for action here.

It involves the use of public funds and us bound by and international agreement, ergo it does go against the constitution. SF were not the ones to notice this. They are however, the only ones willing to go to court regarding it!

FF and proud

UsernameInUse wrote: »

Sinn Féin is considering a legal challenge to the Government's decision not to put the EU/IMF bailout deal to a Dáil vote.

The party said that the Government is acting unconstitutionally in its failure to allow TDs to have their say on the deal.

Sinn Féin President Gerry Adams said: "Any new government should refuse to honour the terms of the IMF/EU deal and Sinn Féin will seek a mandate in the General Election to renegotiate it.''

"This Government has no mandate to impose the terrible deal it has negotiated with the IMF and EU.''

Source; http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/sf-may-take-govt-to-court-over-bailout-deal-483858.html

Sinn Fein are leading the front line yet again!

First, it was the DonegalSW elections, the no confidence motion and now this!

Seriously, WHY ARE LABOUR AND FINE GAEL EVEN REGISTERED PARTIES

ABSOLUTELY USELESS.

Ah sure this kind of thing is not on, them Sinn Fein boys are losin the run of themselves. What is politics coming to in this country when we have the courts gettin people sued?

K-9

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Borrowing money that indebts the country internationally using public funds WITHOUT putting it to a Dáil vote, yes. That is unconstitutional!


29.5.2 of the Constitution of Ireland:

"The State shall not be bound by any international agreement involving a charge upon public funds unless the terms of the agreement shall have been approved by Dáil Éireann."

http://www.constitution.ie/reports/C...nofIreland.pdf


Go on the Shinners!!!

Only people with balls these days apparently!

So when the NTMA have been raising finance through bonds since about 1990, it was unconstitutional all along?

I just can't see how this agreement is different to normal borrowing.

KeithAFC

Its a bit funny seeing Sinn Fein sue anyone.

PomBear

phantom_lord wrote: »

Under what article?

Article 1

The Irish nation hereby affirms its inalienable, indefeasible, and sovereign right to choose its own form of Government, to determine its relations with other nations, and to develop its life, political, economic and cultural, in accordance with its own genius and traditions.

The constitution indirectly proclaims the sovereignty of Ireland to it's people here, same as the proclaimation and the democratic programme of the first Dáil. This is widely accepted by the courts and constitutional scholars. This ensures the government is accountable to it's people and the people if they voted for them or not are effectively the 'bosses' of elected reps. So therefore if they are not accountable to Ireland's people and going against their will, they are committing economic treason.

phantom_lord

wolfpawnat wrote: »

It involves the use of public funds and us bound by and international agreement, ergo it does go against the constitution. SF were not the ones to notice this. They are however, the only ones willing to go to court regarding it!

It's not an international agreement in this context. That's why it didn't need to be passed on the Dail.

And somehow even it was they could just pass it with their majority and there would be no constitutional issue.

OhNoYouDidn't

K-9 wrote: »

So when the NTMA have been raising finance through bonds since about 1990, it was unconstitutional all along?

I just can't see how this agreement is different to normal borrowing.

The NTMA were set up by legislation voted on in the Dail.

The IMF/EU deal clearly is more complex than a simple borrowing.

How hard would it have been for them to impose the whip and get it voted on? Yet another own goal from these eejits, when it was easier to do it right.

PomBear

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Well, I'm sure they could well be considering legal action, so are Labour. But the title of the thread and the link is wrong. There's been times when he's followed through with what he's said alright.

I'll ask again, is he all talk and no action like you earlier claimed?

With Pat Rabbitte and labour's track record with this as opposed to Gerry Adams and SF's track record with bringing the government before the courts, it's fairly obvious who is more likely to bring a case.

OhNoYouDidn't

phantom_lord wrote: »

It's not an international agreement in this context. That's why it didn't need to be passed on the Dail.

Says you. I think otherwise. Hence the involvement of the Supreme Court to decide if the government have broken the law in passing this without a vote.

phantom_lord wrote: »

And somehow even it was they could just pass it with their majority and there would be no constitutional issue.

Which is the point. They aren't even trying anymore.

the real issue is the democratic deficit we now have. Why are the executive and legislative excluded from all key decisions? Why aren't they screaming bloody murder about being cut out of the loop?