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Leaving the EU - A success story
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Nor does it matter what spin you put on it.
The Supreme Court has already addressed this issue. According to it, as the people have a free choice in each and every referendum, all referenda are just as democratic as each other.
Essentially you are sneering at a democratic decision of the people, so spare us this "I am concern for democracy" act.
Well.. erm... it was hardly as simple as that. The referenda concerning internal laws and international treaties were kind of different. Quote: 'Ratification will continue - regardless' and 'We're safer in Europe'. Not meaning the drag the whole thing up again but there was bitterness... from people who voted both ways. Insofar that one may consider the ramifications selfishly there was little that we gained from it; or democracy in general0 -
RandomName2 wrote: »Well.. erm... it was hardly as simple as that. The referenda concerning internal laws and international treaties were kind of different. Quote: 'Ratification will continue - regardless' and 'We're safer in Europe'. Not meaning the drag the whole thing up again but there was bitterness... from people who voted both ways. Insofar that one may consider the ramifications selfishly there was little that we gained from it; or democracy in general
Sorry I'm a bit lost. We voted Yes for it by a large percentage. It made the EU more accountable. I'm not seeing the problem.
What I am seeing is some serious cases of sour grapes and trying to blame it for our home grown problems by people with an agenda. There's plenty of blame to go around in our current situation but the EU or Lisbon had didn't make us do any of it.0 -
Mahatma coat wrote: »I'm saying that I havent even Mentioned any TEXT of the Treaty
The 'No to Lisbon' campaign also failed to mention much of the text of the treaty in both referenda.
Funny thread this. Comparing Greenland to Ireland and the delusion that leaving the EU if it ever happened would have no consequences.
Class.0 -
RandomName2 wrote: »Well.. erm... it was hardly as simple as that. The referenda concerning internal laws and international treaties were kind of different. Quote: 'Ratification will continue - regardless' and 'We're safer in Europe'. Not meaning the drag the whole thing up again but there was bitterness... from people who voted both ways. Insofar that one may consider the ramifications selfishly there was little that we gained from it; or democracy in general
Democracy did gain from it - and in the long run, we gain from that, although we don't generally pay much attention to democracy in this country, because it doesn't always deliver the results we want. That's why we prefer our clientilist oligarchy, and pulling a stroke to putting it to a vote. We believe that the job of our politicians in Europe is to pull strokes there on our behalf, just as we expect our TDs to do in our national 'democratic' parliament.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
RandomName2 wrote: »Nor does it matter what spin you put on it.
The Supreme Court has already addressed this issue. According to it, as the people have a free choice in each and every referendum, all referenda are just as democratic as each other.
Essentially you are sneering at a democratic decision of the people, so spare us this "I am concern for democracy" act.
Well.. erm... it was hardly as simple as that. The referenda concerning internal laws and international treaties were kind of different.
Actually, it as simple as that - unless, you refuse to accept the judgments and constitutional position of the Supreme Court, that is.
The relevant judgment by the Supreme Court was an actual Lisbon one. In the relevant case, the plaintiff challenged the holding of a second referendum on the grounds that was undemocratic and unconstitutional. The Supreme Court unanimously ruled against him.0 -
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...removing ourselves from the free market would instantly make it more expensive for companies to produce their products here, and so they would look at moving elsewhere.
There is nothing to suggest that we couldn't leave the EU and join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) along with Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein where we would have complete access to European markets.
Personally, I want to withdraw from the EU because we are no longer a sovereign country. A large majority of our laws are initiated by the EU commission, an unelected and unaccountable body, and are ratified by an EU parliament over which we have almost no influence and most of whose members have almost no meaningful understanding of the laws they vote for.
We are not allowed to have an independent immigration policy; our supreme court is, well, not supreme; our Central Bank's inability to set our own interest rates has gone a long way in crippling our economy; our referendums don't mean jack sh*t to the EU commission (nor do those of France or the Netherlands); blanket, one size fits all, regulations harm the competitiveness of small businesses; the EU wants to develop a co-ordinated foreign policy and inculcate this European identity nonsense... the list goes on.
We do not have control over our own country. Simply the idea of having a non-Irish person pass a law over Irish people or having a foreign court overrule our Supreme Court makes me sick.0 -
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/alexsingleton/100065718/why-is-greenland-so-rich-these-days-it-said-goodbye-to-the-eu/
An interesting piece on Greenland and their success since leaving the EU. Why in the bejayzus is taking control of our own destiny once again so alien to our politicians??? If Greenland can do it so can we
Jasus, look at the mess we're in because we thought under Bertie we could go it alone. Can you imagine if we didn't have the EU/IMF to bail us out.0 -
Yes there is.CokaColumbo wrote: »There is nothing to suggest that we couldn't leave the EU and join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) along with Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, and Liechtenstein where we would have complete access to European markets
Firstly a currency would be based on what? Argentinian style inflation would be supported by what?
Then there's the actual economies of the four countries you mention.
Norway has one of the largest oil reserves in the world and largest fishing industries. It can afford to be self-sufficient and has value as a trading partner.
The other three the same but with economies based on a strong domestic banking sector. Didn't turn out so well for one of them though, did it?
Ireland has what?
An agricultural sector smaller than that of Denmark.
A failed banking system.
Dependency on outside sources (the EU) for structural funding.
An even higher dependency on foreign corporates basing themselves in the country with this made only affordable by a corporate tax rate that is struggling to compete with cheap labour and incentives overseas.
No comparison and I look forward to the next taxi driver who tries to tell me otherwise again.0 -
Yes there is.
Firstly a currency would be based on what? Argentinian style inflation would be supported by what?
Then there's the actual economies of the four countries you mention.
Norway has one of the largest oil reserves in the world and largest fishing industries. It can afford to be self-sufficient and has value as a trading partner.
The other three the same but with economies based on a strong domestic banking sector. Didn't turn out so well for one of them though, did it?
Ireland has what?
An agricultural sector smaller than that of Denmark.
A failed banking system.
Dependency on outside sources (the EU) for structural funding.
An even higher dependency on foreign corporates basing themselves in the country with this made only affordable by a corporate tax rate that is struggling to compete with cheap labour and incentives overseas.
No comparison and I look forward to the next taxi driver who tries to tell me otherwise again.
Well, how did we establish a currency the last time (after a war which destroyed our country)? Didn't we tie it to the pound?
And who is talking about self-sufficiency? I am the last person to favour autarky. As long as we erect minimal barriers to international trade; have a low tax rate, personal and corporate; low government spending; and slash the red tape for people who want to set up a business, there is no reason why this country cannot become one of the most prosperous economies in this world. If the record of history is anything to go by, free-markets, which we do not have by a long shot at the moment, are a winning recipe for economic prosperity.0 -
Are you suggesting a link to sterling? Unworkable. What does Britain get out of it? Why would Britain, or anyone for that matter, waste time on an untrustworthy and actually, broken economy?CokaColumbo wrote: »Well, how did we establish a currency the last time (after a war which destroyed our country)? Didn't we tie it to the pound?
I'm afraid you are. If you are not self-sufficient in such an economy, you are dependent on others. A low-tax economy even in personal income in a singular economy dependent on no-one else?? Where has this worked? Your four fream countries? Nope. Anywhere? Saudi Arabia maybe. UAE.CokaColumbo wrote: »And who is talking about self-sufficiency? I am the last person to favour autarky. As long as we erect minimal barriers to international trade; have a low tax rate, personal and corporate; low government spending; and slash the red tape for people who want to set up a business, there is no reason why this country cannot become one of the most prosperous economies in this world. If the record of history is anything to go by, free-markets, which we do not have by a long shot at the moment, are a winning recipe for economic prosperity.0 -
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Are you suggesting a link to sterling? Unworkable. What does Britain get out of it? Why would Britain, or anyone for that matter, waste time on an untrustworthy and actually, broken economy?
I'm afraid you are. If you are not self-sufficient in such an economy, you are dependent on others. A low-tax economy even in personal income in a singular economy dependent on no-one else?? Where has this worked? Your four fream countries? Nope. Anywhere? Saudi Arabia maybe. UAE.
I admit that in relation to establishing a currency, I have not read extensively about it. However, I am not advocating for our withdrawal from the EU during a deep economic recession. Stability would, I imagine, be necessary for such a move. Again though, I ask you, how did we establish a currency in the 1920s after a destructive war of independence?
Without causing offence, you lack a basic understanding of how an economy is able to grow; natural resources or a huge population is not necessary for economic prosperity. As long as government interference in the economy is kept to a minimum, individual entrepreneurialism and industry will flourish as will foreign direct investment. A country with favourable tax rates and competitive wages (made uncompetitive by government action) will attract investment and become, over time, a prosperous centre of trade and manufacture. Dependent on nobody else? Absolutely not. We should depend on the whole world, as well as ourselves, for investment.
The Celtic Tiger, up until the turn of the millennium and our membership of the EMU, was an example of this. Why has Hong Kong flourished as an economy? Why has India, South Korea and many other countries? What has brought the former Eastern Soviet Bloc into more prosperous times? It has been a reduction of government interference in their economies and the growth of free-market capitalism.
Finally, the four members of the EFTA are not my idols. They have simply retained most of the economic benefits of EU memberships whilst remaining sovereign countries (not entirely sure about Iceland but anyway, the point remains). Our membership of the EU has meant that we have handed our national independence which we fought to get from the British and simply handed a large chunk of it over to Brussels. And it's only going to get worse.0 -
Basically and simply put: loans andCokaColumbo wrote: »I admit that in relation to establishing a currency, I have not read extensively about it. However, I am not advocating for our withdrawal from the EU during a deep economic recession. Stability would, I imagine, be necessary for such a move. Again though, I ask you, how did we establish a currency in the 1920s after a destructive war of independence?
No, I most certainly do not.CokaColumbo wrote: »Without causing offence, you lack a basic understanding of how an economy is able to grow
What in the world do you think would instill confidence into a foreign investor to setup in Ireland given the incompetence and disregard for future planning it has shown so far? This question applies to the near future also. Not just during recessive times.CokaColumbo wrote: »natural resources or a huge population is not necessary for economic prosperity. As long as government interference in the economy is kept to a minimum, individual entrepreneurialism and industry will flourish as will foreign direct investment. A country with favourable tax rates and competitive wages (made uncompetitive by government action) will attract investment and become, over time, a prosperous centre of trade and manufacture. Dependent on nobody else? Absolutely not. We should depend on the whole world, as well as ourselves, for investmentCokaColumbo wrote: »The Celtic Tiger, up until the turn of the millennium and our membership of the EMU, was an example of this. Why has Hong Kong flourished as an economy?
It was a British colony and is back now as Chinese. I'll give you a guess how it has prospered. "Hong Kong money"?
No government interference in the Russian economy??? This is simply jaw-dropping stuff. South Korea is in receipt of foreign funding from the States, France and the UK. India? Thanks to its labour rates and class system, it is able to offer itself to the likes of the EU, States as an outsourcing location in manufacturing and export location. I'm sure its all rosy there for its inhabitants.CokaColumbo wrote: »Why has India, South Korea and many other countries? What has brought the former Eastern Soviet Bloc into more prosperous times? It has been a reduction of government interference in their economies and the growth of free-market capitalism
Three of them do because they have worth. They have something to show. They are not dependent on foreign investment.CokaColumbo wrote: »Finally, the four members of the EFTA are not my idols. They have simply retained most of the economic benefits of EU memberships whilst remaining sovereign countries (not entirely sure about Iceland but anyway, the point remains)
When things sag in Ireland, people hold their breath and hope the likes of Intel, the dot coms, Pfizer, HP, Boston Sci etc don't just say bugger this and up sticks. You can't base an economy on this precedent.
Oh ffs.CokaColumbo wrote: »Our membership of the EU has meant that we have handed our national independence which we fought to get from the British and simply handed a large chunk of it over to Brussels. And it's only going to get worse.
Without "Brussels", the no-frills handing out of money to Ireland would never have surfaced. No structural funding. No fiscal infrastructure would be propped up. How could Ireland afford its tax structure in the first place?
I don't know how old you are but I actually remember the 70s and 80s in Ireland.0 -
and slash the red tape for people who want to set up a business
I often wonder how many of the people who make this statement have actually set up a business in Ireland. The basic 'red tape' involved in setting up a business in Ireland is next to nothing - about 3 working days worth of time including the bank accounts, and not particularly complex. Compared to most other countries in the world, that's very close to non-existent. The costs are similarly low - about €400-€500. There's not enough red tape there for 'slashing' it to make any real difference, which is why we're currently (2010) number 5 on the world index of economic freedom. There isn't a long way up to go.
I can only assume, therefore, that people are referring to compliance with things like product and worker health and safety rules - in which case they should explicitly say so.
cordially,
Scofflaw0 -
CokaColumbo wrote: »Our membership of the EU has meant that we have handed our national independence which we fought to get from the British and simply handed a large chunk of it over to Brussels. And it's only going to get worse.
Was it the EU that made the banks lie to us, was the EU that gave the developers an attitude that they were invincible, was the EU who gave away hugely inflated wages and pensions to the PS. Yes, we fought to get our independence from the English and what have we allowed to happen. We have perpetuated cronyism and allowed cute hoorism to flourish in our society. Also, what did we initially allow to happen when we got our independence we basically treated the lower classes in our society the same way as the UK did to us. So stop looking at this with rose tinted spectacles.
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