Change of Minister

Sparks

Well, it just hit the official news programs, the Minister for Justice, Dermot Ahern, will be stepping down from politics for medical reasons at the next election. So no matter what, there will be a new Minister for Justice after the next election, and hopefully we can now see a change in policy with regard to our sports.

From the RTE website:

Statement by the Minister for Justice and Law Reform, Dermot Ahern TD

I am announcing my decision today not to contest the forthcoming General Election.
I have informed my local party organisation in Co Louth that, after 32 years as a public representative, I am stepping down at the next general election. I also informed Cabinet colleagues this morning.
Following the 2007 general election I came to a decision with my family that that election would be my last. In October, 2009, I informed the Taoiseach of my intention. I confirmed that decision with him last weekend.
In the last 18 months I have been diagnosed with a painful medical condition necessitating heavy medication. I have been advised that a change in my pace of life is essential in coping with this condition.
There is never a good time to make a decision like this. I do so in the knowledge that there are many people in the party who will now be able to take up the battle and to represent Fianna Fáil in the best traditions of the party in this constituency.
I am deeply grateful to the people of Louth for their support of me in my various roles over the past three decades. I served as a councillor for 12 years, TD for 24 years and Minister for over 13 years.
It has been a great honour and privilege to serve the people of Louth as a Fianna Fáil public representative at Council, Dáil and Cabinet level.
I believe in the upcoming generation; well educated, energetic and enthusiastic. I believe they deserve the opportunity to contribute.
As a nation we face major challenges. I firmly believe in the spirit and resilience of our people. I believe in our country.

sfakiaman

Sparks wrote: »

Well, it just hit the official news programs, the Minister for Justice, Dermot Ahern, will be stepping down from politics for medical reasons at the next election. So no matter what, there will be a new Minister for Justice after the next election, and hopefully we can now see a change in policy with regard to our sports.

A couple of years too late, but thank you Santa just the same.

dos29

I'd love to share your optimism.

Sparks

sfakiaman wrote: »

A couple of years too late, but thank you Santa just the same.

Apparently agreed with his family in '07 ( :rolleyes: ) and with the Taoiseach in October last year.

johngalway

It's unfortunate news regarding his own personal health, that's what was reported this morning anyway.

Politically, and in regards to shooting, it brought a large to my face. Even though he wouldn't have been in the next Govt anyway, I'd rather not be looking at or listening to him.

bunny shooter

On a personal level sad that his health isn't good.

As a Minister, he can burn in the fiery flames of hell, the Bollox :mad:

landkeeper

running for cover more like i think any ff td that goes door to door canvassing better have a neck like a jockeys trossachs and a skin like a rhino

4gun

Can't see any politician "legalising handguns" as the midia would spin it

but one lives in hope

lead loader

I wonder if "the heavy medication" it is alledged that the Minister has been taking explains the policy or some of the ridiculous decisions over the last couple of years:D:D

poulo6.5

bunny shooter wrote: »

On a personal level sad that his health isn't good.

As a Minister, he can burn in the fiery flames of hell, the Bollox :mad:

Hay bunny. I wish you would get off the fence and tell us how you really feel:D

Bananaman

They should have one of those x-factor - "your time with us" segments on Dermo

• Abolished Equality Authority - while Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform"
• Introduced Blasphemy laws
• Oversaw decimation of Garda force
• Oversaw massive increases in crime statistics
• Oversaw introduction of new firearms licensing system - didn't include hunting endorsement, treated many license holders as criminals and is now probably the most challenged piece of legislation in history of state.
• Caused massive damage to Shooting Sports in Ireland - while minister for Justice - not Sport
• Brought in legislation to attempt to outlaw a specific sport - IPSC - first country in world to do so
• Brought in new Criminal Justice Bill - impact on criminal statistics? increased
• Member of Cabinet which lost sovereign control of National Finances
• Member of Cabinet which mortgaged the country for no benefit to citizens
• Left with Ministerial Pension before losing seat to Gerry Adams

All in all not bad for a couple of year work.

Having witnessed the blatant lies he told in the Dail and his bully tactics among his own party and in the Dail I am glad to see the back of him from Politics - he is from that crop of despotic egomaniacs (now referred to as the 'political classes' in the media - says it all) that have led us to where we are - he knows his "turn" at party leader or Taoiseach (you didn't think it's was awarded based on performance or ability did you) won't come up again so he's off - good riddance.

I'm not that optimistic about the possible replacements but we'll just have to see who it is and how receptive they are to the truth - god knows they will be taking over a job in a shocking state from him.

B'Man

Rosahane

I hope it's true, but given his interpetation of what constitutes the truth :P

4gun

• Left with Ministerial Pension before losing seat to Gerry Adams

Sinn fein will introduce a tougher regime on gun law if they get into government...this will be so they can tell the public thay they have put the gun out of their policies for once and for all

Sparks

4gun wrote: »

Can't see any politician "legalising handguns" as the midia would spin it

It wouldn't be done publicly and we'd never get an apology or a public statement of policy being changed. (Well. Never say never, especially if the incoming Minister wants to get a kick in at the outgoing Minister, but we'd never get it just because we asked for it if you follow me).

However, if we could accept that and looked instead at the next thirty years instead of the last thirty years, then things could be done quietly so that noone lost face, under the auspices of rationalising legislation to bring us more into line with our european partners. To say nothing of how much could be done for the sports just with modifications to SIs, which require no publicity.

It comes down to whether the result is the important thing or whether the shouting is the important thing, and that's a decision that the shooting community has to make - even if that means dragging the shouty people aside for a quiet word in their ear.

Mr Mole

The Minister is going, but we are still left with his policies, and left with the inepts who advised him, and decieved us.

knockon

While on my way to work this morning I had a wry smile when I heard he won't be around too much longer. That little Pr##k cost me a lot of money and wasted range time. He should hang his head in disgrace at the legacy he left behind. A friend recently pointed out the Country is been run by 2 solicitors a barrister. You know what kind of morals some of these guys have so I don't think Ahearn will loose too much sleep about his record.

Sitting down in the Dail next to that other ninny hammer O Dea trying to to save his skin after lying his ass off, shouting "Touche, Touche" is my lasting memory of him.

Good riddance.

Sparks

Mr Mole wrote: »

The Minister is going, but we are still left with his policies, and left with the inepts who advised him, and decieved us.

Policies can be changed and we still have good working relations with those in the Department whose support we will need for those changes. It's not even close to a sure thing, but it's the change we've needed to see real change become possible.

deerhunter1

landkeeper wrote: »

running for cover more like i think any ff td that goes door to door canvassing better have a neck like a jockeys trossachs and a skin like a rhino

ya he stayed long enough to screw us and take a fat un earned pension SOB

Sparks

landkeeper wrote: »

running for cover more like i think any ff td that goes door to door canvassing better have a neck like a jockeys trossachs and a skin like a rhino

And they will probably have Gardai at hand as well.

deerhunter1

Sparks wrote: »

And they will probably have Gardai at hand as well.

ya fachtna murphy is a fianna fail man that is how he got the job and that is why no-one in being prosecuted for our banking crisis, the boys looking after each other, and when he goes next year there is another fianna fail Gob sh..e waiting to take his place.:mad:

bunny shooter

Mr Mole wrote: »

The Minister is going, but we are still left with his policies, and left with the inepts who advised him, and decieved us.

Very true :eek:

Sparks

How can there be another FF political appointee waiting for his job when FF won't be around to appoint them?

deerhunter1

landkeeper wrote: »

running for cover more like i think any ff td that goes door to door canvassing better have a neck like a jockeys trossachs and a skin like a rhino

Just on 1 o clock news arthritis, thats from all the handshakes (back handers) and doing fu-k all in Government, another rat leaving the sinking ship

Bananaman

Sparks,

this thread is about what party would do us best but you continuously talk about 'the grea relationship' we have with the department - what planet are you on?

Future licensing of CF Pistols prohibited

Many people forced to descrate perfectly safe RF pistols to confirm to lunatic 5-shot policy

Blanket rifle restrictions based on barrel diameters rather than muzzle velocity

Blatantly incorrect definitions in Primary legislation such as 'bullpup' 'practical shooting', etc.

Possible ban on IPSC

haphazard application or ignoring of legislation by Senior Gardai and application of blanket policies in contravention of legislation

Hundreds forced to resort to courts - many as far as High Court - to renew licenses at huge personal and financial cost - simply to continue taking part in their chosen sport

Ranges forced at make massive alterations at huge cost

Shooting Clubs - unique among sports clubs - forced to pay state to exist

Shooting Ranges - unique among sporting venues - forced to pay state to exist

to name but a few things introduced since this 'relationship' came into effect

god help us if the relationship was not so rosy ;-)

B'Man

deerhunter1

Bananaman wrote: »

Sparks,

this thread is about what party would do us best but you continuously talk about 'the grea relationship' we have with the department - what planet are you on?

Future licensing of CF Pistols prohibited

Many people forced to descrate perfectly safe RF pistols to confirm to lunatic 5-shot policy

Blanket rifle restrictions based on barrel diameters rather than muzzle velocity

Blatantly incorrect definitions in Primary legislation such as 'bullpup' 'practical shooting', etc.

Possible ban on IPSC

haphazard application or ignoring of legislation by Senior Gardai and application of blanket policies in contravention of legislation

Hundreds forced to resort to courts - many as far as High Court - to renew licenses at huge personal and financial cost - simply to continue taking part in their chosen sport

Ranges forced at make massive alterations at huge cost

Shooting Clubs - unique among sports clubs - forced to pay state to exist

Shooting Ranges - unique among sporting venues - forced to pay state to exist

to name but a few things introduced since this 'relationship' came into effect

god help us if the relationship was not so rosy ;-)

B'Man

No. It is about the minister for injustice stepping down, the other thread is about what party would suit us

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

Sparks,
this thread is about what party would do us best but you continuously talk about 'the grea relationship' we have with the department - what planet are you on?

The one that knows the difference between the Department and the Minister and the AGS.

Future licensing of CF Pistols prohibited

Done by the Minister's fiat, not the Department.

Many people forced to descrate perfectly safe RF pistols to confirm to lunatic 5-shot policy

Done by the Minister's fiat at the AGS's urging, not by the Department.

Blanket rifle restrictions based on barrel diameters rather than muzzle velocity

Done by the Minister's fiat, not by the Department.

Blatantly incorrect definitions in Primary legislation such as 'bullpup' 'practical shooting', etc.

Actually, that one you can lay at the AG's office door since they banjaxed every piece of legislation sent their way into something that didn't reflect what was sent to them - as Joe explained to you at the meeting in Tullamore not too long ago, this is why the Ranges SI is on it's umpteenth revision at the moment

Possible ban on IPSC

Again, Minister's fiat, not the Department.

haphazard application or ignoring of legislation by Senior Gardai and application of blanket policies in contravention of legislation

And that's the AGS's doing, not the Department (which is prohibited by the constitution and by rank from telling the AGS to do things like that)

Hundreds forced to resort to courts - many as far as High Court - to renew licenses at huge personal and financial cost - simply to continue taking part in their chosen sport

Again, that's the AGS, not the Department

Ranges forced at make massive alterations at huge cost

Some of that is the department, to be sure - but as Joe pointed out at the meeting in Tullamore, most of that is down to the AGS and to the last SSAI National Development Officer's recommendation. Can't blame them for stuff we did to ourselves B'man.

Shooting Clubs - unique among sports clubs - forced to pay state to exist

Yup, down to the Minister's fiat as well.

Shooting Ranges - unique among sporting venues - forced to pay state to exist

Actually, that's not true (the unique bit), though we do have unique levels of control. But again, this was also the Minister's fiat.

god help us if the relationship was not so rosy ;-)

Well, yes. Since you wouldn't have any pistols if the relationship with the Department wasn't a good one. Nor would you be building ranges to the Canadian standard instead of the JSP one the AGS wanted you to use (including the €20k just to see a copy of the standard before you ever start to build). Hell, whether or not you'd still have fullbore rifles is up for debate (though the .303 isn't - you wouldn't have it).

Point is this; the Department is not the Minister and the Department is not the AGS. This isn't us-v-them, it's more complicated than that, and the fact that the Department's Principal Officers are not allowed to even publicly disagree with the Minister (unless they don't want their careers anymore) makes it even more complex. If the Minister is hostile (or, as in Ahern's case, thinks he can get a few quick votes with a simplistic jingoistic "I'm doing something" media story), then we're all in trouble - but if the Department doesn't act to soften the blow in our interests, then we are well and truly screwed. Which thankfully wasn't the case for the last six years or so.

juice1304

it's good to see the back of him, santa came early. hopefully i'll be able to get my sig in the not to distant future.

Bananaman

Sparks wrote: »

Done by the Minister's fiat ..........

I thought he gets driven around in a merc.

Ah well - sure it'll be grand now then with him gone so - only a blip - what do we need a department for if it's all up to the Minister ??

Now that the benevolent beings in "d'department" are free to express their opinions of him I'm sure we'll all hear how he made them do it.

Codswallop!!!

B'Man

It wasn't me!

Bananaman wrote: »

I thought he gets driven around in a merc.

Ah well - sure it'll be grand now then with him gone so - only a blip - what do we need a department for if it's all up to the Minister ??

Now that the benevolent beings in "d'department" are free to express their opinions of him I'm sure we'll all hear how he made them do it.

Codswallop!!!

B'Man

The converse is true also. If the department is responsible for the policy as you seem to think, why do we have a minister? They're the ones who direct the whole show and influence the policy of the department for their term. They're also the ones largely responsible for making the lives of their departmental colleagues difficult, re-writing complex drafts of legislation which took months to prepare the night before it's due to be presented and such.

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

I thought he gets driven around in a merc.

You know, I actually did think noone would make that joke, that it was actually too awful to make in polite company? :pac:

Ah well - sure it'll be grand now then with him gone so

Oh don't be stupid, there's another Minister to come in behind him and we've no idea who that is yet (and our history of working with both the Labour and the FG spokespeople for justice isn't a guarantee of anything yet).

The Minister gives the mandate. The Department fills in the details. The AG's office checks the wording. The Dail and Seanad sign off on the new law and the AGS enforces it. Unless you know that mechanism, and unless you know that all those groups are seperate groups with seperate (and often conflicting) agendas, you're going to do more harm than good by shouting at "them" about injustices.

Ahern set himself against handguns in the press, and from that point onwards, everyone was screwed because unless the entire department was to set our sport above paying their mortgage and putting food on their table and that kind of thing, they couldn't prevent a ban. However, you'll notice that instead of a quick one-line change banning all handguns (which was what Ahern originally announced in the press), we got a convoluted system that managed to keep the Minister happy and keep a formal mechanism in place to licence handguns legally; and when such a mechanism is in place, you don't have to introduce it all over again with his successor, you just have to modify it. Which is a damn sight easier. I know it's not what you wanted, nor is it what anyone else bar Ahern wanted (and even he didn't want it so much as he wanted a press story to shut Deasy and Mitchell up). But it was a damn sight better than what was originally slated to come down on us, and far more importantly, it's fixable.

Seriously B'man, quit painting this as a simple thing. There's damn precious little that's simple or easy in firearms legislation, apart from getting some put in place to ban stuff. And shouting about it only makes it harder to get anything done. And once that new Minister is in, it'd do our whole community a lot of good if everyone just held their breath for a few minutes so that some quiet talking gets a chance to fix the stuff that's landed on us in recent years. Because if we've learnt nothing else in the last decade, it should be that the judicial branch is not a stick to beat the executive branch with - you can't force them to give you what you want that way, and anyone telling you otherwise is trying to con you out of your money.

deerhunter1

Sparks wrote: »

How can there be another FF political appointee waiting for his job when FF won't be around to appoint them?

y
are gone then t
He is already chosen, if murphy retires before FF go then he has the job, murphy is not long off retiring. Watch this space:eek:

:eek:

Bananaman

I don't have any money - his government saw to that too.

B'Man

Sparks

deerhunter1 wrote: »

He is already chosen, if murphy retires before FF go then he has the job, murphy is not long off retiring. Watch this space:eek:

Never thought I'd call for murphy to hang in there

daveob007

deerhunter1 wrote: »

Just on 1 o clock news arthritis, thats from all the handshakes (back handers) and doing fu-k all in Government, another rat leaving the sinking ship

could'nt see the ****er being any good at pistol shooting with a shaky hand,,,maybe his shakey hand made some mistakes when writing the legislation,,,did he mean that centrefire pistols were unrestricted??? slip of the pen maybe.
anyway glad to see the back of the ould bast**d cost me the price of my pistol and my enjoyment.

Bananaman

deerhunter1 wrote: »

y
are gone then t
He is already chosen, if murphy retires before FF go then he has the job, murphy is not long off retiring. Watch this space:eek:

:eek:

Don't doubt there will be a few 'shock' retirements and replacements before the end - to make sure all d'lads get ministerial pensions seeing as it will be a generation before they have another chance.

B'Man

Sparks

There's already quite a list. Rory O'Hanlon went only yesterday.

juice1304

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6A-ucLv44Y

lol

johngalway

It wasn't me! wrote: »

why do we have a minister?

Even Ministers have their uses dear Humphrey.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIto5mwDLxo

knockon

Sparks wrote: »

And once that new Minister is in, it'd do our whole community a lot of good if everyone just held their breath for a few minutes so that some quiet talking gets a chance to fix the stuff that's landed on us in recent years.

I think thats a fair point. I have had a number of contacts in the last year with FG and the new Minister for Finance hopefully. I also raised a number of issues with FG HQ about John Deasy ranting and raving about legally held pistols, come to think of it he has been quiet! It is incumbent on us as target shooter/hunters to make our case to our local TD that we are wholly unhappy the way we were and are been treated.

Sparks

Aye, it's not like we have to shut up forever, but letting our local TDs know that this is a factor even now (which helps with the Dail group in the list above) and then giving people a finite timespan to try to get things quietly rolling back towards fixed before threatening to sue the new Minister would be a Very Good Idea. In my honest opinion.

dCorbus

I think the latest count is 15 of our glorious and esteemed TD's jumping ship and not "contesting" the next "forthcoming" election - although, it's not going to be much of a "contest" TBH.

Rats and Sinking Ships and all that....

But I wouldn't be gloating too much: the King is Dead, Long Live the King.....etc....but christ knows who the new king will be and what insanity and inanity they have planned for not just the shooters of Ireland but the entire citizenry of Ireland.

Although, it's nice to know DA won't ever (we can but hope he does a parnell and ignores political advice to retire and return) be Taoiseach! Thank god for some very small blessings!

The charitable side of me wishes him the best recovery from his illness - the less-charitable side of me wonders if the cilice has finally gotten the better of him!:rolleyes:;)

4gun

Sparks wrote: »

It wouldn't be done publicly and we'd never get an apology or a public statement of policy being changed. (Well. Never say never, especially if the incoming Minister wants to get a kick in at the outgoing Minister, but we'd never get it just because we asked for it if you follow me).

However, if we could accept that and looked instead at the next thirty years instead of the last thirty years, then things could be done quietly so that noone lost face, under the auspices of rationalising legislation to bring us more into line with our european partners. To say nothing of how much could be done for the sports just with modifications to SIs, which require no publicity.

It comes down to whether the result is the important thing or whether the shouting is the important thing, and that's a decision that the shooting community has to make - even if that means dragging the shouty people aside for a quiet word in their ear.

I suupose all they would have to do is enforce the EU leglislation whereby if you hunt Deer you are requireg to carry a handgun for humane dispatcy .... this would be one area, and any politician could blame Brussels... IF you use same pistol for target shooting ...bonus

Bananaman

Sparks wrote: »

Aye, it's not like we have to shut up forever, but letting our local TDs know that this is a factor even now (which helps with the Dail group in the list above) and then giving people a finite timespan to try to get things quietly rolling back towards fixed before threatening to sue the new Minister would be a Very Good Idea. In my honest opinion.

<mod edit>Where did you hear that one from</mod edit> ?

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

<mod edit>Where did you hear that one from</mod edit> ?

From the chaps who run your sports discipline, amongst others B'man. Basicly, someone thought it'd put the wind up the Minister, or sold it as such to those who'd have to pay the barrister's fees. The Minister thought it was as funny as clingfilm across a toilet seat and the question was asked whether there was any point at all in talking to people who'd announce this plan on a monday and then ask you for something for nothing on a tuesday.

Personally, I think it pointed out two problems; firstly, that the Minister regarded our requests not to be stepped on as looking for something for nothing (though that is pretty close to the negotiation stance we've been in for the last forty years since we can't veto the Oireachtas); and secondly, that some people in our community have a rather dire lack of a grip on the realities of the situation we're in and think it's us-v-them in a way that would be seen as overly simplistic in a summer action movie from Hollywood. What we need right now are people who understand that there are a dozen different groups, with varying levels of alliance and association and difference of agendas, and that we're never going to get a final perfect solution that gives us everything we want without any cost at all. Happily, we have about seven or eight people like this, and they're sitting at the FCP doing their best to hold onto whatever we have left until we get a Minister into office who's not hostile towards us.

Grizzly 45

To misquote the poem" Base details."
And when the election is over and Ireland is broke and stone dead.I'll toddle safley home with my pensions, state car and Garda driver,and die in bed!

And that my friends is what Dermo and all the rest of them are hoping to gain in the last days of the Fianna Fail Reich.It's actualy amazing to watch how Cowen and all the rest of them are exhibiting the same bunker mentality of unrealisim that Hitler and Co displayed when the Ivans were knocking on the door of the Chancellory.
So another rat jumps off the sinking Fianna Fail ship.No harm or great loss.
For what that little Bol**ix!! has cost me in money and time and our sport,not to mind his other disasterous pieces of law mongering signed under his hand.
I cannot wish him any well or good wishes ,ill health or not.He deserves none!I have no sympathy or mercy for this man,he has earned none.

As a matter of fact I firmly belive that if the media reports are true that he is taking steroids..It would explain the total irrationality and moodiness of the man in many circumstances.It also shows how gutless Cowen is,to not be able to remove two sick men from cruical office due to ill health to replace them with fitter people to deal with the enormous job of running finance and justice.No wonder we are banjaxed!:mad:

Only bad thing about this..Is who do I replace the picture of Dermo with on my office dartboard now??:p

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

who do I replace the picture of Dermo with on my office dartboard now??:p

No worries Grizzly, this is Ireland. We'll have six new names within a week...

Bananaman

Sparks wrote: »

From the chaps who run your sports discipline, amongst others B'man.

In my club I take part in approx 10 shooting disciplines.
I'm on the NASRPC committee - which is NGB for over a dozen shooting disciplines.
I'm a member of ITS which is NGB for one shooting discipline.
and I've taken part in almost every other shooting discipline there is available in Ireland - ISSF included.

I have never heard of anyone seeking to sue Dermot Ahern and obviously nobody can be suing his replacement as we do not know who that will be.

So which discipline are you referring to and which 'chaps' that are in charge of it said they were planning to?

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

which 'chaps' that are in charge of it said they were planning to?

You've misread me; I said I was told of this by those chaps, not that those chaps were planning to bring the suit.

Bananaman

Sparks wrote: »

Happily, we have about seven or eight people like this, and they're sitting at the FCP doing their best to hold onto whatever we have left until we get a Minister into office who's not hostile towards us.

And I quote my earlier post which shows how good a job they have been doing.

Bananaman wrote: »

Sparks,

Future licensing of CF Pistols prohibited

Many people forced to descrate perfectly safe RF pistols to confirm to lunatic 5-shot policy

Blanket rifle restrictions based on barrel diameters rather than muzzle velocity

Blatantly incorrect definitions in Primary legislation such as 'bullpup' 'practical shooting', etc.

Possible ban on IPSC

haphazard application or ignoring of legislation by Senior Gardai and application of blanket policies in contravention of legislation

Hundreds forced to resort to courts - many as far as High Court - to renew licenses at huge personal and financial cost - simply to continue taking part in their chosen sport

Ranges forced at make massive alterations at huge cost

Shooting Clubs - unique among sports clubs - forced to pay state to exist

Shooting Ranges - unique among sporting venues - forced to pay state to exist

to name but a few things introduced since this 'relationship' came into effect

god help us if the relationship was not so rosy ;-)

B'Man

Sparks

Bananaman wrote: »

And I quote my earlier post which shows how good a job they have been doing.

Do I need to quote my earlier reply which pointed out you're blaming the wrong people for those things and who actually was responsible for them? Or can you just scroll up and read it?

4gun

divided and concurred

its not a misspelling