Diesel drivers, you've been warned !

MarkoC

As im not sure about Irish fuel importers, you might have troubles to start your diesel cars in next following days as the temperature drops really low !

Like most fuels, diesel is a mix of hydrocarbons, and the components have different freezing points. For Number 2 diesel, as the ambient temperatures drop toward 32 degrees F (0 degrees C), it begins to cloud, due to the paraffin in the fuel solidifying. As the temperatures drop below 32 F, the molecules combine into solids, large enough to be stopped by the filter. This is known as the gel point, and generally occurs about 15 degrees F (-9.5 degrees C) below the cloud point.

This wax then forms a coating on the filter which results in a loss of engine power. The same thing happens on starting an engine when the temperature is below freezing. The filter becomes almost instantly coated with wax - usually, enough fuel gets through to allow the engine to idle, but not attain operating RPM. There are two common ways to overcome this: one is a diesel additive, the other is a fuel heater.


Thats the very standard diesel on the market, in Scandinavia, Eastern Europe and other colder countries the adding chemicals to increase the diesel freezing point, so im afraid Ireland isnt prepared for that but im not sure. So if your car wont start you know where yo look at the trouble first, check your fuel filter.

EMERGENCY PROCEDURE FOR COLD START

Should wax crystals cause a problem then the following emergency start up procedure has been taken from AS 3570.

1) Check dipstick to ensure engine oil is fluid. If the engine oil is fluid go to step 2. If it is not fluid do not attempt to start the engine because waxy fuel in the crankcase has frozen. Wait until the oil becomes fluid. Using an external heat source such as a blow heater, steam line or exhaust gases from another vehicle will speed up the process. Once the oil is liquid then replace it with fresh oil in accordance with manufacturers instructions.
2) Attempt to start the engine. If the engine fails to start then check the fuel filter for wax. If the fuel won’t flow or is hazy then the filter body and fuel lines will need to be heated using a blow heater or steam cleaner.
3) Once the engine starts run it at low speed until it is warm. This will prevent further blockages.

stimpson

MarkoC wrote: »

Thats the very standard diesel on the market, in Scandinavia, Eastern Europe and other colder countries the adding chemicals to increase the diesel freezing point, so im afraid Ireland isnt prepared for that but im not sure. So if your car wont start you know where yo look at the trouble first, check your fuel filter.
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Good point.

This stuff seems to do the business

http://www.kamco.co.uk/diesel.htm

Has to be added above the cloud point though

GTE

Interesting but I thought most modern diesels have pipes that feed the unused fuel back into the tank which heats it up.

Maybe short journeys would be bad but diesels never like those anyway.

kippy

I found this effect last year (early in the cold snap) on my 00 focus.
The car had no "go" at all at various times in the cold snap.

However have been told that usually the additive is already in the Diesel from the pump however it does depend on the diesel you buy and at what time of year you buy it. I found the car/diesel did improve over time so assume the additive was in fuel I had bought since that point.

coylemj

I think you may be ignoring a lesson the Irish fuel companies learned back in the 1980s when there was a big freeze and a lot of people found that the fuel in their central heating systems choked up for the reasons you outlined. It transpired that the Irish fuel companies had been selling fuel with no capability of handling temperatures below (I think) -7 C.

At the time they promised that in future they would sell fuel that had a lower temperature tolerance and hopefully they have kept to their word since then.

barochoc

I've had no problems! My thoughts were that Diesels would give lass starting problems than petrol because the fuel is pre-heated. Well I think it is in a HDi engine anyway!

If I do have problems i'll light a small fire under my fuel tank before I head off

MarkoC

If diesel gets jelly, no system on any car will help against that.
And its either winter diesel or summer diesel, local garages dont add anything into the fuel. So therefore someone should ask from main fuel imprters what diesel they bringing in. That information should be actually in media to avoid massive problems in the country.
Early this year that happened to a lot of people because of the summer diesel. I

JJJJNR

I'm sure a bit of dipetane in your Diesel/petrol would be enough to stop the gel effect. My TDI started first time this morning at -11.

L1011

Fuel coming in here / produced in Whitegate would have moved to Winter formulations a while ago.

North Cork

No problem with the diesel

Summer grade from 16th March to the 14th November freezing point -15

Winter grade from 15th November to the 15th March freezing point - 22

I am in the business.

Matt Simis

JJJJNR wrote: »

I'm sure a bit of dipetane in your Diesel/petrol would be enough to stop the gel effect. My TDI started first time this morning at -11.

I dont think Dipetane improves the Gel point, but does help lubricity. Where was it -11 out of interest, thats proper cold?

GTE

Interesting to read this. I never noticed it myself last year and not yet this year.

In fact the car is starting better then ever for the past couple of days. Other reason for that but anyway she starts perfectly well so far.

I wonder is it more a case that the cold makes problems with the engine such as dirty filters or injectors etc. manifest easier.

Guy:Incognito

Matt Simis wrote: »

I dont think Dipetane improves the Gel point, but does help lubricity. Where was it -11 out of interest, thats proper cold?

The missus car showed -9 in Dublin this morning so it's getting down around there alright.

MarkoC

North Cork wrote: »

No problem with the diesel

Summer grade from 16th March to the 14th November freezing point -15

Winter grade from 15th November to the 15th March freezing point - 22

I am in the business.

Early this year lots of people where struggling at minus 10-12C, is the diesel content improved just this winter or ?

Now i made a little research and found this
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/ConocoPhillips+Begins+Production+of+Renewable+Diesel+Fuel+at...-a0156047230

I agree here theyr diesel jelling point is higher, but 150 tonne they do daily is clearly not enough to cover Ireland, so most of the diesel is bought in and just the normal diesel ?

SV

I'm not inclined to believe those diesel freezing points.
Last year in -13 temps there were diesel cars all over out of action.

mathepac

bbk wrote: »

... I wonder is it more a case that the cold makes problems with the engine such as dirty filters or injectors etc. manifest easier.

or problems with illegal, washed or smuggled fuel.

I had no problems with any of our family diesels last winter nor any so far this year (searches for piece of wood to touch )

Matt Simis

SV wrote: »

I'm not inclined to believe those diesel freezing points.
Last year in -13 temps there were diesel cars all over out of action.

Where is Hammertime to back "North Corks" statement up I wonder?

TheBazman

I saw -13 last year and the car started fine

Yoreastar

Car was sitting for a week in freezing temps As low as -11 and started no problem. Re-filled with diesel from Topas in Lissarda Cork and car would not start next morning. Diesel freezing engine just keep turning over and would not start.

Black_Knight

It hit -16 here the other night, and my car's an ice block as ive not driven it for about 3-4 days. Hopefully a thaw will come and sort out the car before ive to use it again.

johnos1984

I've not had any issues,its been a little slow to start so I just give it 3 seconds to warm and then it starts fine

L1011

SV wrote: »

I'm not inclined to believe those diesel freezing points.
Last year in -13 temps there were diesel cars all over out of action.

More likely due to other problems, battery particularly - there's more power required to get a diesel going due to coil heaters and the like.

Its often been -12 to -15 here and not one of the three diesels in the house has failed to start. And they're being filled from different locations - either of the two stations within 2 minutes drive of my house for my parents and possibly anywhere in the entire country for mine. All three would have fully working batteries...

Mycroft H

Land Rover had a problem starting this morning - it was minus 17 last night and minus 11 when i tried to start it. And before anyone thinks it - It wasn't the battery - the battery had been trickled charged over the last few nights also its a tractor battery so no problems turning it over.

I'm putting the problems down to waxing diesel.

GTE

Temps have been around -12 to -14 and the wagon has started fine.

Nice long glow plug cycles.

reelkidmusic

I did not have any problems with my diesel until Christmas Eve morning. It had been parked over night and temps were down to -17. Filled the car the evening before. It started and ticked over fine but as soon as you would try to accelerate, serious loss of power.

I tried driving it for a little while and pulled into a garage. There was a lovely man from Eastern Europe direction. He told me, diesel frozen and topped up the tank with kerosene. Did not have any problems since.

Does anybody know, what the repercussions would be if I happened to get 'dipped' by Customs. There would have been about 15litres put in to the tank

mickdw

I dont know about the guy in the trade posting earlier but in one particular village with -16 temps, all tractors & diesel cars failed to start.

Mr. Manager

Hit -15c last Wednesday and mine started fine. Have had no trouble with her through this snowy period

dr.fuzzenstein

Well, in them olden days you'd light a fire under the diesel tank to heat it up and maybe add a few litres of petrol to the diesel to prevent freezing.
Might not work so well these day...;)

DF1

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Well, in them olden days you'd light a fire under the diesel tank to heat it up and maybe add a few litres of petrol to the diesel to prevent freezing.
Might not work so well these day...;)

I've been sticking in about 5% petrol with diesel for the past couple of weeks, following advice on another forum, and have had zero trouble.
Another vehicle in the house had problems for the last few days and only back to normal this morning.

Top Dog

Filled ours on Christmas Eve ... and threw a fiver of petrol into the mix too. Its actually in the manufacturers handbook that in seriously cold weather conditions that up to a 30% petrol mix is safe to run.

reelkidmusic

Top Dog wrote: »

Its actually in the manufacturers handbook that in seriously cold weather conditions that up to a 30% petrol mix is safe to run.

What kind of car do you have?

Top Dog

Mitsubishi Shogun Di-D

dr.fuzzenstein

You'd want to be very confident you can definitely add petrol to your diesel these days.
I've heard (and cannot quote a source for this) that the petrol washes away oils in the diesel that is used to lubricate parts of the injector pump.
And once that is knackered, you're looking at a very hefty bill.
Opinions differ on that subject on different websites, but to be on the safe side I would not put any petrol in the diesel (or light a fire under the tank for that matter)

Top Dog

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

You'd want to be very confident you can definitely add petrol to your diesel these days.

I wouldn't have tried it if it wasn't confirmed in the owners handbook. Dunno if I could have done the same with the Laguna I had this time last year as the temperatures never dropped near low enough to investigate it.

johnos1984

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

(or light a fire under the tank for that matter)

Standard practice in Siberia, I kid you not.

Also they tend not to turn the cars off for fear the fuel will freeze

_Kaiser_

It's been between -8 and -14 most mornings here in the last week or so and the car started first time, every time (06 2L TDI Passat with Topaz diesel)

Seweryn

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Opinions differ on that subject on different websites, but to be on the safe side I would not put any petrol in the diesel

Nothing wrong with that. According to my car's manual, you can add up to 30% of petrol or 50% of kerosene (not allowed in Ireland for tax reasons) to the regular Diesel fuel. But you have to make sure that your engine / injection pump can comfortably stomach this mixture.

Matt Simis

Seweryn wrote: »

Nothing wrong with that. According to my car's manual, you can add up to 30% of petrol or 50% of kerosene (not allowed in Ireland for tax reasons) to the regular Diesel fuel. But you have to make sure that your engine / injection pump can comfortably stomach this mixture.

I would suspect Kerosene is a lot safer to add to a diesel engine than petrol. My understanding is Kero is like Diesel but lacks some of the lubricity but is also slightly more refined. There are people out there running Diesel engines purely on Kero (though not in Ireland as you mention afaik).

Petrol on the otherhand is not really all that like diesel (in the specific fuel sense) and has virtually no lubrication properties.

Yoreastar

Tried car again today at 5C and started no probs defo think was jelly diesel the other freezing morning. Battery is fine New in fact glow plugs fine. Might put a 10% petrol mix in for next bad weather.

Jumbo156

Driving a 04 saab 93 1.9 tid...During our cold snap, I have had a few problems
Car starts fine but after about 100 yards or so, total loss of power.
Engine stays ticking over but when I pressed the throttle, nothing.
This could last about 5 mins, before the engine roars back into action with a load of smoke.
I assume the problem mentioned above is what is wrong with mine.
Do I need to do anything at this stage?

teednab-el

I had to do the following procedure in order to get my car started. Not sure if its actually effective or not? I kept turning the key to 2 and did long glow plug cycles on and off. The car used to choke trying to start but never failed to start in any of the cold weather we got now and at the start of the year. Its started at -14 degrees celcius also but I reckon either my glowplugs or battery is on the way out for sure.

Matt Simis

Jumbo156 wrote: »

Driving a 04 saab 93 1.9 tid...During our cold snap, I have had a few problems
Car starts fine but after about 100 yards or so, total loss of power.
Engine stays ticking over but when I pressed the throttle, nothing.
This could last about 5 mins, before the engine roars back into action with a load of smoke.
I assume the problem mentioned above is what is wrong with mine.
Do I need to do anything at this stage?

First thing I would do is change the fuel filter and put in some "Dry Fuel" additive (Halfords/Motor factors sell it). I would suspect you have moisture in the fuel filter which is freezing and then restricting flow (or simply not filtering).
The Additive should pull water out of the fuel tank and filter and if its a good one, lubricate the fuel pump too.

As a curve ball suggestion, anyone with a Diesel should get some silicone grease (Maplin sell it for one) or similar dielectric grease (not Lithium grease) and put it on the Mass Airflow Sensor (aka MAF, AFM etc) connection (the electrical plug part obviously). The grease insulates the pins in the connection, on many diesels the MAF connection is electrically dirty, especially on cold starts, the pins on the plug can arc between each other giving slightly incorrect readings till it heats up and normalises. Greasing it will also stop corrosion and moisture buildup.
Yes I have tried this and yes it does work and help those cold starts.