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So I started playing FF13....
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29-11-2010 3:47pm#1Join Date:Posts: 51577
I heard lots of bad things about this game. It's incredibly linear. The start of the game is a 20 hour tutorial. The story is rubbish. I also think Square Enix are incapable of making a great RPG anymore.
Well I decided to play it out of morbid curiosity and I've gotten close to the end of chapter 4 (a little bit after getting Odin). I have to say I'm really enjoying it. The battle system is superb, like really good. I usually hate the ATB system and felt it's never worked properly with turn based systems being so much better but I think they nailed it this time and the complete overhaul makes a frantic and yet tactical battle system. The harder fights feel like the boss fights of FF12 which in my opinion was the only time the battle system actually worked in that game. It seems to work for every battle in this game.
The 20 hour tutorial is kind of hyperbole but I admit it did take a while before pressing just X got you through every battle. At the point I'm at the battle system has been excellent since I gained access to the paradigm shifts.
The linearity thing is not a problem for me. People foget that FFX, one of the best FF games was just as linear. Also people don't realise that previous FF games from FF4 onwards, with the exception of FF6 and FF12 were totally linear affairs. They only gave the illusion of freedom but you were always being ferried from point A to B to C. The omission of towns is a little more jarring. Although in FF games they were rarely functional gameplay-wise but they did add a lot to the world and by giving you an insight into how normal people of the world felt.
I'm finding the story interesting enough. The world of Cocoon and Pulse is fascinating, I'm reallty enjoying the setting and the amount of work put into the mythos of this universe. The quite frankly stunning graphics and art really help as well. Characters aren't too bad, Sazh is a real stand out while Vanille at the moment is hateful but she's the only weak one so far in a good cast.
I might change my mind but this is definitely not the disaster it's been made out to be. In fact it'sone of the most enjoyable games of the year for me.
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I stopped playing shortly after the "Moms are tough" line, i think ill give it another whirl. I cant seem to get the time to play these kinda games these days, They always require hours of play just for it to kick off and grab you in..
And yeah the fighting is super boring at the start, x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x, new battle, x,x,x,x,x,x,x,x level up. Does it only pick up after the 20 hours tutorial? I was kinda hoping the tutorial crap was nearly over, im not even near 20hours play
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Well you are hardly 2 hours into the game. Also before that point you can't even level up
I found once you get access to the paradigms at the start of chapter 3 (about 4-5 hours in) the battle system starts to get a lot better. There's been a few tutorials since then but it's nothing major. You definitely don't need to play 20 hours until the battle system gets good. The 20 hour mark I heard is where the game opens up and becomes non-linear.
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Told you you'd like it Retr0. See, a man who appreciates a great battle system!
You've gotten to the point where I really started to like the battle system. I think by Chapter 9 or 10 is when I started to love the battle system, so it could be it'll get even better for you as well.
I also really enjoyed the in game encyclopedia, it gives a lot of background to the world and explains a lot. It really adds something to a game for me (as does the codex in Assassin's Creed II) as they can't always explain everything about a world through the story and interactions with NPCs.0 -
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having the party fully healed after every battle and all the auto-saves kinda took the fun out of it a little for me.
Don't miss this at all. It streamlines things so you don't have to open a menu after every second battle to heal.Told you you'd like it Retr0. See, a man who appreciates a great battle system!
It was your recommendation that made me try it. That and the 12 euro price tag on Zavvi
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From a person who I consider having good taste in video games I am a bit shocked. Sure, previous FF games gave the illusion of reality but is that not a vital part of an RPG-illusion,immersion, escapism and fantasy? I hate the fact that there are no towns. It is like a world devoid of culture. FFXIII is still the most linear RPG I have ever played. I found the world uninteresting and the characters derivitive. Compare to the Suikoden characters and world. The battle system is ok but controlling only one character at a time really feels limited and the leveling up system is more limited than it appears. I wanted to like this game, I really did, but half way through chapter 12 I went back to playing FFVII, FF IX and Terranigma on my PSP and DS.
man, many of us really been there done there, dont we all:oTold you you'd like it Retr0. See, a man who appreciates a great battle system! You've gotten to the point where I really started to like the battle system. I think by Chapter 9 or 10 is when I started to love the battle system, so it could be it'll get even better for you as well.
I also really enjoyed the in game encyclopedia, it gives a lot of background to the world and explains a lot. It really adds something to a game for me (as does the codex in Assassin's Creed II) as they can't always explain everything about a world through the story and interactions with NPCs.
from my play through, there is barely any interaction with the characters and the story the world all the characters didnt do any talk (anything really matters) at all after they officially joined. at many points in the ff13, i keep feeling that 'why do i care for these people?' - worst rpg experience ever! such a failed role playing game. and the reason is simple, there is not enough effort to put more details on the characters's background etc.
the story of ff13 can literally be summed up in 1 line:2girls who failed (sacrifice themselves) to 'give the world peace' 500years ago and now they come back to do their job.
in the end of the day i dont even freaking understand why the whole ff13 is needed, since they dealt more damage to the world throughout the story=_=0 -
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i did say ff13 feels like a Monster hunter too back in the old thread
it is no coincidence that SE did give alot attention to the big hits of MH series of recent years. the 'sidequest' is just plain boring=_=
after i finished 13, i look back 12 - 12 was a much more enjoyable game. the mark sidequest of 12 is very similar to 13's but it is strangely less boring than 13. weird.
retro please finish 13 asap and tell us what you think!!:D0 -
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I present to you Final Fantasy 13 the worlds most linear game this generation
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That's kind of an embarrassing review regarding what he says about the battle system, although in fairness he says he was right at the start of the game. It becomes so much more than that - even early on in the game you can't 'L1+X' the summon battles as if you do you'll just fail. You have to figure out the strategy to beat the bosses and the later enemies in the game - in particular when you have mixes of enemies of different types/weaknesses etc.richymcdermott wrote: »I present to you Final Fantasy 13 the worlds most linear game this generation
I also find it unusual that he has White Knight Chronicles looping in the background. I really enjoyed White Knight Chronicles (in fact I finished it twice), but it's battle system is pretty boring. It's story is also pretty standard save the princess fare. However, it does have towns and NPCs that can spout endless nothings at you so clearly that means it's the superior game...
I can understand the hate that FFXIII got as clearly there's a very varied audience out there who like different things in particular about FF games, so they had so many hopes and dreams about it and then they didn't come true. However I think it's a stretch to say it's a bad game - I think it's one of the better JRPGs of this generation. It's fun, it tries something different story wise (although it fails some what in that it can get hard to follow and perhaps the characters weren't easy to connect with) and it creates a fantastic lore and world (if you've read the in-game encyclopedia I'm sure you know what I mean).
I really like that reviewers description of the story (in the review below), although I don't agree with all his points (Fang is a butch lesbian now?) it's pretty damn funny.
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Don't just don't get the hate that people have for this game. What were people expecting, a western non-linear RPG with dialogue choices?
Yes the game is linear but nearly every JRPG ever made is just as linear. FF13 is just as linear as the vast majority of the series it just doesn't bother hiding it with a constrained world map and some awful minigames to play.
What it does provide is one of the best battle systems ever devised for an RPG. It's got one of the best soundtracks of the series. It's gorgeous looking with great art even if there's a bit too many palette swaps, although just as many palette swaps as previous FF games. And I think the story is really interesting, the universe is great and I like the characters. Even Vanille, Snow and Hope have grown into very likeable characters at this stage. At this stage I'd say it's a better game than FFVII and it's supposedly going to get better once I get to Gran Pulse.
I have a feeling this game will be like FF9. People moaned about it when it came out how it wasn't exactly like FFVII but now in retrospect it was by far the best FF game of the PS1 games.
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About the ‘L1 + X’ comment he makes. In fairness you can finish any FF game by holding A/X etc. Whether that would be any fun or a very successful strategy 100% of the time is another question. You may think this a silly example but I know someone who played large parts of FFVII and FFVIII doing just that. FFXIII is set up to reward you for doing better in battles, i.e. finishing them as quickly as possible. In order to do this you have to have the right paradigms set up, juggle them well, exploit weaknesses and build the stagger bar (although for some bosses building their stagger bar is the worst thing to do). For me, it’s a more engaging battle system and it’s more fun. I think most JRPGs are more focused on the grind and surviving multiple battles than they are about performing well in individual battles, which is what FFXIII is all about.
Good point. I found a lot of FF games such as FFVII, FFVIII if you abused the system etc. were pretty much mash X to win with no strategy. FFXIII is far more strategic but is also fast paced. You really have to think about your battle strategy to win and for me I'm always striving to get 5 stars in the battles which is what I get the majority of the time. People playing the game slowly with one attacker and 2 healers aren't playing the game properly and of course they will get annoyed. I think the developers should have put more of an incentive to finish battles fast like Panzer Dragoon Saga does to prevent people from turtling up and being boring.
As for the story, I'm liking it and it really does move along at a brisk pace. It never gets bogged down in non-interactive cutscenes, they seem to be nicely paced and the game has a great brisk pace about it. Compare that to the awfulness of MGS4!
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Mark Hamill wrote: »13 isn't just linear, its bloody well tubular. There is one big area, and the rest are tubes interconnected by cut scenes. Sure rpgs were linear, hell nearly every game is linear, but they at least give the attempt of creating a world around you, with many more open areas between the tubes and (in a lot rpgs) the ability to return to previously seen locations. FF13s linearity just hammered home the completely empty world you in, maybe by itself it wouldn't have been so bad, but coupled with the empty towns, it makes the game dead.
FFXIII and in the same way FFX did the same thing, they trimmed off the fat. Sure you could go back to old places but there was absolutely no point in doing this in the old games, I know I never did. Also you could wander off the beaten track and find... wel absolutely nothing. These games were just as linear it's just that anything you could do outside of the beaten track was pointless. The sidequests were only opened up at the end of the game and it's the same in FFX and FFXIII it just does it in a more streamlined way. Can't comment on the rest because I've not finished it.Raze_them_all wrote: »one of the best soundtracks?? Really retro? I can honestly say I don't remember one piece of music from it.
It really is, listening to it right now actually!Raze_them_all wrote: »I really hated final fantasy 13....your hate of legend of dragoon(iirc) is a lovers tiff in comparison.
Legend of Dragoon is one of the worst most soulless RPGs ever made, a total exercise in corporate focus testing with no redeeming features. FF13 is certainly not as bad.
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Isn’t this an interesting approach though? It works the same way as some of the bosses in Persona 3 and 4, as in, they are a little gimmicky but they do two things: they teach you more about the battle system and they mix things up a bit. They also teach you about how to boost those summons before you go into ‘gestalt mode’ by filling the gestalt gauge. It makes a change of pace in that it requires you to come up with the right strategy and not just get lucky or spam your most powerful magic attack.
But they are one off, the method you use to win isn't used anywhere else in the game, and it is mostly based on luck or just scanning the enemy. DOnt get me wrong, it did one thing great and that was make status magic actually relevent, but even with that, it got very boring. Bar the hunt bosses, the only single boss that game me any trouble wasthe proudclad, just at the end, and that was just because it attacked so quickly.I don’t think that the NPC characters are stupid at all, if you use Libra they’ll attack with the right element. When you have them cast support magic they cast Haste first, then Protect/Elemental Defense and then attack boosters – that’s exactly what I do when I’m in control. I don’t think I ever lost a battle in FFXIII due to stupid AI, which is more than I can say for Persona 3 and 4 (I play those games without taking manual control of my party).
Its been a while since I played, but the one thing I specifically remember was how bad they were at healing. They would always stop healing for me if my party members above a certain point, but not necessarily at 100%. Even if they had no other abilities, they would sit there like idiots and not do anything, even if every character needed a heal to be at 100%.I think most JRPGs are more focused on the grind and surviving multiple battles than they are about performing well in individual battles, which is what FFXIII is all about.
You did see how much exp it takes to level up the crystal thing in the non standard paradigms for each character? Or how much money it costs to level up weapons? FF13 is as much about the gring as any other FF. Its a thing I hate about all of them, grinding is as boing as hell.I think its crime is that it’s different and it has an over long tutorial. I think that some people were approaching the game with a particular play style in mind and not adapting to the play style the developers had in mind when creating the game. FFXIII is supposed to be fast paced and varied, whereas I’ve seen and read people use the same set of paradigms and the same attacks against many different types of enemies, and even using 2-3 healers in a paradigm. I think the giant tutorial stage is to blame for this, as people got used to using auto-attack and didn’t need to change paradigms early on. People who had finished the game before me told me that the final boss was really hard to get 5 stars in, and took them ages to get their strategy right. I thought it was easy as I was already finishing battles quickly, I think there are much harder battles (like the ones where staggering is a bad idea). Some people told me they spent 20-30 minutes fighting some of the later bosses – this is just wrong! They should never take you that long if you’re playing well. If you’re playing well you shouldn’t need 2 healers in a paradigm until the later part of the last chapter. The game is even set up to support this in that you are healed after every battle.
But I didn't do any of that
. I changed paradigms all the time, I never used the auto-attack, and I killed the end boss in one go. I wasn't expecting any type of battle system and open to them trying anything, but this one still was boring. Maybe it was because of the tutorial opening, it made everything very slow and because you were usually stuck with just 2/3 characters at a time, successful paradigms were very easy to find.
I do think they were trying something different with the story. For one, you’re not heroes. Everyone in the game hates you and thinks you’re evil. The bad guys aren’t one distinct set of cronies, but a whole society essentially and a load of demi-gods who want you dead or fear you. What I mean about the game not making much sense to some people is that I think FFXIII suffers from the fact that the writers wanted to set up the whole ‘Fabula Nova Crystallis’ lore to be further explored in FFvXIII and FFagitoXIII. Some people didn’t get what a Fal’Cie or a L’Cie was, or didn’t care. I think that the game is directed towards (Japanese?) young people, it’s saying ‘don’t worry about what your parents, teachers or society have decided you’re going to be (your ‘fate’ as it were), aim high and go for what you want to do in life (make the impossible possible) - so perhaps not much more than the 'believe in yourself and follow your dreams' of every other piece of media aimed at young people in Japan.’ Whilst I agree about the ending (I do think it fell a little flat), I respect them for trying something different. Particularly when other JRPGs have disappointing stereotypical stories or just downright weird/non-sensical ones.
You are giving the writers far too much credit. It was 6 cliched characters, rebelling against tyrannical rulers who control their homes. Nearly every FF has that. The only reason this game didn't have you go to places where you where liked (most anywhere outside of midgar/junon in 7/ Lindblum in 9 etc) is because they didn't make any towns outside of cocoon and all those inside of cocoon were empty. In FF7 you were terrorists, in FF9 your were pirates, in FF12 you were outlaws. I dont think there is any FF were you dont end up going against some ruling overlord.
And for a story that supposedly is telling people that they should ignore what other people are saying their fate is whydo the characters, after 20 odd hours of raging against their fate and detailing why they shouldn't fulfil it, change their minds right at the very end, follow through on the fate that everyone else was telling them to do? How did they know that killing the fal cie in cocoon wouldn't destroy it? answer: they didn't. So why did they do it? Since when can people just turn back from Cieth? Since when can Fang and Vanille turn into Ragnarok at will (at all)?The ending doesn't fall flat, its never gets up to fall flat, its just ****.I couldn’t disagree more. Some of my favourite parts of FFXIII, Lost Odyssey and Assassin’s Creed were the little stories that are there for you to read (and of course Lost Odyssey gets full marks for presentation of the dreams). It gives you backstory to people, details about places and enemies etc. This is the sort of stuff you get from random NPCs in other games, except in more detail. I much prefer this approach. As developers are creating more detailed worlds, it’s more difficult to have NPCs explain it. Otherwise you’re going to need many more NPCs to do so (or more cutscenes perhaps?), especially when typically they only have a few lines each and even worse when half of them spout off nonsense.
But then they might as well not tell you anything through actual gameplay and have it all as text files in the menu. It might be hard to integrate it into the game properly, but its the game makers job to do that, its what makes the world real. That they might do it badly is no reason for them not to try, might as well not even make the game if you are afarid they might do it badly.0 -
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Totally different type of game. JRPGs are nearly always totally linear affairs where the concentration is on telling a story and the battle system. Western RPGS are always more non-linear where the player has an active role in the story and choices that make a difference.
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Mindkiller wrote: »So where are you retrogamerguy? Have you got to the extremely brief 'good' bit yet?XIII is a game which offers the player next to no agency.
Just started the chapter before it. Almost there.Mindkiller wrote: »You might as well just watch Advent Children 15 hundred times and get the same experience.
Ah now it's not that bad!Mindkiller wrote: »One of the most annoying things about XIII for me is the level caps at every chapter. You never feel like you are nurturing your abilities. Rather you're unlocking powers the same way you would in Prince of Persia or Assassin's Creed. It's even more restrictive than the key spheres in X.
Don't really have a problem with it since Suikoden and a few other games have it as well. It opens up completely at chapter 10 which I'm at now.seraphimvc wrote: »i was shocked when you say you are enjoying Nautilus.
quick hint: every FF lover from ps1 era, when the first time they look at Nautilus, what is the first thing will spring out the mind?? GOLD SAUCER. and what have ff13 done to us?????
gave us a FCKING disgraceful 1 hour play in Nautilus with some MINICHOCOFCKINGBO catching game??? that chocobo is not even a real size chocobo.
Always hated golden saucer and its crap minigames, awful music and terrible terrible chocobo racing game you spend hours doing to get knights of the round. Nautilus was much better.seraphimvc wrote: »and i still dont get it how did you spend 20hours till nautilus, and fyi, the '20hr tutorial' that people have been talking about is actually about the period of time you reach the Gran pulse.
It didn't take me 20 hours you picked me up wrong. Probably only closing in on 20 hours now just before gran pulse.
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