incident in a night club gardai called

fustrated

Hi i am looking ofr opions on an incident that occurred in a city nighclub last night.

MYself and a gruop of work colleagues were out last night for a work do.
my manager and supervisor included in the party.
we were just about to leave the bar to go upstairs to the nightclub so i bent down to pick up our jackets from a pile on the floor i found mine but not my friends any how we went to walk off and then I was grabbed by the arm and dragged out to a porch way by the bouncers who called the manager over and they start accusing me of stealing someones purse.

they also took my friend away and proceeded to search our bags, obviously they found nothing as everything in our bags was ours. but then they kept saying it was us and they have cctv evidene. i was really angry i kept asking them to let go of my arm and insisting i had done nothing wrong they wouldnt let me go! they wouldnt let me speak to my friend either.

She was outside and also handed her bag over she had my phone and hers and her purse and also another purse that we had been using for a kitty to buy drinks. They were like what do you call all this??? So she explained.
I also verified this.

Anyhow the girl who had her purse stolen was there so she could see that wasnt her purse.


all the time the bouncer had me held tight and i was saying let me go your hurting me but he wouldnt so i tried to agreswsivly break free from him and then another bouncer came along and pushed me down on the ground so i gave up and just sat down roaring crying untill the gardai came and questioned us and searched us again and found nothing and told us to leave the premises which we did and got a taxi straight home.

I am embarrassed upset and annoyed over this, people in work now think im a thief.

Ill admit that i was shouting saying let me out for a smoke, let go of me ect but they were using excessive unnessacary force i felt like i was cornered in the proch all for something i didnt do.

the manager a female just kept laughing at me saying you did it we know ect.

could i do anything about this?

Joey the lips

i would have started by asking the garda what s/he was going to do as you were held against your will and told that you were filmed on cctv stealing a purse.

The garda report would have provided you with a reason to speak to a solicitor...

paky

OP if i were you i'd pursue this to the end. thats defamation and assault. i'd go straight to my solicitor. bouncers get away with too much in this country. you should definitly do something about it.

fustrated

i did say to the guard but what about the way they have treated me and the way the bouncer held me i was asking to see his licence to .

She just said i will need to make a statement tomorrow as im drunk ,fair enough?

paky

fustrated wrote: »

i did say to the guard but what about the way they have treated me and the way the bouncer held me i was asking to see his licence to .

She just said i will need to make a statement tomorrow as im drunk ,fair enough?

first of all dont tell the guards you were drunk when making the statement. it might be held against you in court. say you had some drinks. you can clearly remember it but dont give them any leeway.
secondly dont take advice from the guards. the less paperwork they have to do the happier they are.
contact a solicitor and go see your doctor. i imagine this could be a very upsetting experience for you.
if you let something like this go it could happen to someone else.

Joey the lips

fustrated wrote: »

i did say to the guard but what about the way they have treated me and the way the bouncer held me i was asking to see his licence to .

She just said i will need to make a statement tomorrow as im drunk ,fair enough?

So do that. Then ask the guard to go to the nightclub and produce the CCTV footage where it shows you stealing. Then ask for a copy of all the cctv footage where you were "manhandled" bring it to a solicitor and take them to court.

The beauty of this is if the footage goes missing after you report it to the guard it makes a stronger case for you

fustrated

thanks for the advise paky it was actually the guard who said i was drunk

ya it is extremely upsetting my friend is livid to

paky

Joey the lips wrote: »

So do that. Then ask the guard to go to the nightclub and produce the CCTV footage where it shows you stealing. Then ask for a copy of all the cctv footage where you were "manhandled" bring it to a solicitor and take them to court.

The beauty of this is if the footage goes missing after you report it to the guard it makes a stronger case for you

even if the footage goes missing still take them to court. there are plenty of witnesses

fustrated

thak you myself and the other girl are both going to the gardai to to that

MagicSean

I would think the bouncer would argue he was conducting a citizens arrest under the Criminal Law Act.

johnmcdnl

now I'm reading this and I'm going to ask a question - how in the name of jesus was the bouncer supposed to know you didn't steal the purse - he seen you pick a couple of purses up and go to leave - now add in that someone reported a stolen purse/handbag whatever..

you were acting "slightly" aggressively trying to be let go and asking to be let go for a "smoke"

had you actually stolen the purses if he'd let you go you'd have ran and could easily have gotten away...

now I don't know what rules and regulation go to policing bouncers but surely this is part of their job in a club - to hold people there until the guards arrived - the only reason you got held down by 2 bouncers was because you were trying to get away so much

yes it turned out you were innocent and completely in the right - but the bouncers didn't know that when they seen you picking up those purses and bags now did they.. and the way you acted was hardly going to help your case

fustrated

thanks for that ya fair enough he was doing his job but there was no need for the force and the humiliating way he did it.

we are more worried about the accusations ect

fustrated

im sorry but your wrong i never said i picked up any bags or purses

if you read my post i knelt down looked for my coat and that is the only thing i picked up!

my friend had those things in her bag at all times they were never on the table!

Joey the lips

johnmcdnl wrote: »

now I'm reading this and I'm going to ask a question - how in the name of jesus was the bouncer supposed to know you didn't steal the purse - he seen you pick a couple of purses up and go to leave - now add in that someone reported a stolen purse/handbag whatever..

you were acting "slightly" aggressively trying to be let go and asking to be let go for a "smoke"

had you actually stolen the purses if he'd let you go you'd have ran and could easily have gotten away...

now I don't know what rules and regulation go to policing bouncers but surely this is part of their job in a club - to hold people there until the guards arrived - the only reason you got held down by 2 bouncers was because you were trying to get away so much

yes it turned out you were innocent and completely in the right - but the bouncers didn't know that when they seen you picking up those purses and bags now did they.. and the way you acted was hardly going to help your case

He told her he had her stealing it on CCTV footage. Sounds like an acquasation to me. You have to be very careful when dealing with the public. Most bouncers would not have done anything as they know the law is clear on this thing.

MagicSean

You may have an action in defamation.

This is the section I referred to about citizens arrest

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0004.html#sec4

fustrated

thank you joey

fustrated

thanks kc i would argue though that pcking up your coat in a nighclub wouldnt warrant a citizens arrest ?

MagicSean

fustrated wrote: »

thanks kc i would argue though that pcking up your coat in a nighclub wouldnt warrant a citizens arrest ?

The grounds for an arrest are

1 - Know an offence has been committed - this is covered as they had someone reporting it

2 - Have a reasonable suspicion of your guilt - we do not know what his evidence would be. He may have looked at the cctv and believed he had seen you pick up the purse. You may have been pointed out by someone. They may have thought you had the purse hidden under the coat. He will most likely have some reason.

charlemont

Id lock onto the bouncer with my teeth, and every time the scumbag looks in the mirror, he would remember blaming someone in the wrong...

FruitLover

k_mac wrote: »

I would think the bouncer would argue he was conducting a citizens arrest under the Criminal Law Act.

'Citizen's arrest' is a hairy area, and I'd be doubtful that suspected theft of a purse wouldn be enough reason for it to be legal. Possible case of wrongful arrest here IMO (in addition to defamation and assault).

MagicSean

FruitLover wrote: »

'Citizen's arrest' is a hairy area, and I'd be doubtful that suspected theft of a purse wouldn be enough reason for it to be legal. Possible case of wrongful arrest here IMO.

Theft is an arrestable offence so it is covered by it.

fustrated

thanks kc i get what you mean.

lol at the other comment but seriousli thank god my partner wasnt there because he would have tried to remove his arm from me and then he probaby would have got arrested!

bigred100

johnmcdnl wrote: »

now I'm reading this and I'm going to ask a question - how in the name of jesus was the bouncer supposed to know you didn't steal the purse - he seen you pick a couple of purses up and go to leave - now add in that someone reported a stolen purse/handbag whatever..

you were acting "slightly" aggressively trying to be let go and asking to be let go for a "smoke"

had you actually stolen the purses if he'd let you go you'd have ran and could easily have gotten away...

now I don't know what rules and regulation go to policing bouncers but surely this is part of their job in a club - to hold people there until the guards arrived - the only reason you got held down by 2 bouncers was because you were trying to get away so much

yes it turned out you were innocent and completely in the right - but the bouncers didn't know that when they seen you picking up those purses and bags now did they.. and the way you acted was hardly going to help your case

I don't know anything about the law in the slightest, but I'm pretty sure no one is allowed to just detain you against your will, especially not bouncers in a club.

MagicSean

bigred100 wrote: »

I don't know anything about the law in the slightest, but I'm pretty sure no one is allowed to just detain you against your will, especially not bouncers in a club.

Why would you admit to knowing nothing about the law and then say it is not allowed?

mathepac

k_mac wrote: »

I would think the bouncer would argue he was conducting a citizens arrest under the Criminal Law Act.

The bouncer cannot in the circumstances described by OP make any such claim, nor did OP state that the bouncer made a citizen's arrest, and the 1997 act (see section 4) does not empower the bouncer to make an arrest in the circumstances described. A licensed bouncer should know this.

fustrated

thats exactly why i asked him to produce his licence which he didnt!

i know he should not have treated me this way he was definitly using excessive force.

does anyone know that if your making a citizens arrest if you need to say IM MAKING A CITIZENS ARREST ?

fustrated

mathpac would you have a link to that act you refer to

mathepac

Section 4 - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0004.html#sec4

But Section 2 - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0002.html

' “arrestable offence” means an offence for which a person of full capacity and not previously convicted may, under or by virtue of any enactment, be punished by imprisonment for a term of five years or by a more severe penalty and includes an attempt to commit any such offence;" '

MagicSean

mathepac wrote: »

Section 4 - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0004.html#sec4

But Section 2 - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1997/en/act/pub/0014/sec0002.html

' “arrestable offence” means an offence for which a person of full capacity and not previously convicted may, under or by virtue of any enactment, be punished by imprisonment for a term of five years or by a more severe penalty and includes an attempt to commit any such offence;" '

Theft is an arrestable offence. The bouncer is entitled to make an arrest.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0050/sec0004.html#partii-sec4

Subsection 6

talla10

k_mac wrote: »

The grounds for an arrest are

1 - Know an offence has been committed - this is covered as they had someone reporting it

2 - Have a reasonable suspicion of your guilt - we do not know what his evidence would be. He may have looked at the cctv and believed he had seen you pick up the purse. You may have been pointed out by someone. They may have thought you had the purse hidden under the coat. He will most likely have some reason.

Actually for a citizen to make such an arrest under s.4 cja they must know who the person is who committed the offence and only then can they hold that person at the scene. Reasonable suspicion is not permitted for a citizens arrest, Reasonable suspicion is permitted only when a member of AGS is making the arrest

MagicSean

talla10 wrote: »

Actually for a citizen to make such an arrest under s.4 cja they must know who the person is who committed the offence and only then can they hold that person at the scene. Reasonable suspicion is not permitted for a citizens arrest, Reasonable suspicion is permitted only when a member of AGS is making the arrest

No. This has been discussed here before i think. There are two parts to ocnsider. The person must know for a fact that an offence has been committed, but they need only suspect a particular person of having committed the offence. The Gardaí on the other hand need only suspect an offence has been committed and need only suspect a particular person of having committed it.

Jo King

There has to have been an offence committed. Someone reported a purse missing. That does not mean it was stolen. It may have been lost, mislaid or never existed in the first place. Only when it is ascertained that someone stole the purse does the issue of reasonable suspicion arise. A solicitor should be contacted immediately.

Tigger

its false arest and he hurt you arm and the other one hurt your back
thats how i'd deal with it

Tigger

its false arest and he hurt you arm and the other one hurt your back
thats how i'd deal with it
but get the tapes first so you can see what it looks like
and get a solicitor you can pm me for reccomendations

paky

johnmcdnl wrote: »

now I'm reading this and I'm going to ask a question - how in the name of jesus was the bouncer supposed to know you didn't steal the purse - he seen you pick a couple of purses up and go to leave - now add in that someone reported a stolen purse/handbag whatever..

you were acting "slightly" aggressively trying to be let go and asking to be let go for a "smoke"

had you actually stolen the purses if he'd let you go you'd have ran and could easily have gotten away...

now I don't know what rules and regulation go to policing bouncers but surely this is part of their job in a club - to hold people there until the guards arrived - the only reason you got held down by 2 bouncers was because you were trying to get away so much

yes it turned out you were innocent and completely in the right - but the bouncers didn't know that when they seen you picking up those purses and bags now did they.. and the way you acted was hardly going to help your case

those bouncers behaved like meatheads. nobody deserves to be treated like that. i say throw the book at them

D.McC

paky wrote: »

OP if i were you i'd pursue this to the end. thats defamation and assault. i'd go straight to my solicitor. bouncers get away with too much in this country. you should definitly do something about it.

I totally agree.

Joey the lips wrote: »

So do that. Then ask the guard to go to the nightclub and produce the CCTV footage where it shows you stealing. Then ask for a copy of all the cctv footage where you were "manhandled" bring it to a solicitor and take them to court.

The beauty of this is if the footage goes missing after you report it to the guard it makes a stronger case for you

The OP’s solicitor would have to request this. The only reason a Guard would make this sort of request would be to use the CCTV as evidence in a criminal case.

The good news is, this CCTV is most likey going to go missing, as this is a standard damage control tactic of most ill-informed establishments.

The thinking behind it is, ‘oh ****e, we fecked and we’re going to have to pay out, but this recording will mean we might have to pay out more’

k_mac wrote: »

I would think the bouncer would argue he was conducting a citizens arrest under the Criminal Law Act.

The bouncer could make that argument, if he was acting within the law. But as he had no, proof beyond reasonable doubt, he had no right to stop and detain the OP or her party.

johnmcdnl wrote: »

now I'm reading this and I'm going to ask a question - how in the name of jesus was the bouncer supposed to know you didn't steal the purse - he seen you pick a couple of purses up and go to leave - now add in that someone reported a stolen purse/handbag whatever..

you were acting "slightly" aggressively trying to be let go and asking to be let go for a "smoke"

had you actually stolen the purses if he'd let you go you'd have ran and could easily have gotten away...

now I don't know what rules and regulation go to policing bouncers but surely this is part of their job in a club - to hold people there until the guards arrived - the only reason you got held down by 2 bouncers was because you were trying to get away so much

yes it turned out you were innocent and completely in the right - but the bouncers didn't know that when they seen you picking up those purses and bags now did they.. and the way you acted was hardly going to help your case

Its not that the bouncer didn’t know the OP had stolen the purse, the bouncer should have been 100% certain the person is detained had stolen the purse.

It is not the bouncer’s role to investigate if a crime has been committed, but rather to detain any persons after the fact. It is the role of AGS to investigate the crime.


IMO the OP had every right to act in an "slighty" aggressive manner towards the bouncer. Every person has the right to defend themselves against unwarranted assault.

As the bouncer had no legal defence to thier actions, the detention and restaint will be seen as assault and possibly kidnapp

D.McC

I have read over some of the posts again and in an effort to clear things up can I state for the record.

A bouncer, security guard or Joe Public has no right to detain any person or make a citizen’s arrest on the grounds that an offence might have been committed and the person accused of the offence might have committed the offence.

The bouncer, security guard, Joe Public need to have proof beyond reasonable doubt that the offence has been committed, and the accused is the person who has committed the offence. In other words, the offender must be caught red-handed carrying out the criminal act.

They cannot detain any other citizen for questioning or investigate the accusation.

On the other hand, ASG do not have the same burden of proof and only require reasonable doubt as too if an offence been committed in order to effect an arrest to assist in their investigation.

For the bouncer to have acted correctly in this case, the Gardaí should have been summoned prior to the OP and co leaving the premises. The bouncer would then relay the information to hand, indicting the suspected offender and the injured party. The Guard would then, if they felt necessary investigate the complaint, and make an arrest if the case warranted such action.

MagicSean

D.McC wrote: »

The bouncer, security guard, Joe Public need to have proof beyond reasonable doubt that the offence has been committed, and the accused is the person who has committed the offence. In other words, the offender must be caught red-handed carrying out the criminal act.

No. The bouncer only needs to be sure an offence has been committed. Once he has established it has been committed he can arrest anyone who he has reasonable grounds for believing committed it. Read the statute. As Jo has said it is possible that the purse had been mislaid. This would make the arrest unlawful.

fustrated

thanks to all for your feedback on this thread

D.McC

k_mac wrote: »

No. The bouncer only needs to be sure an offence has been committed. Once he has established it has been committed he can arrest anyone who he has reasonable grounds for believing committed it. Read the statute. As Jo has said it is possible that the purse had been mislaid. This would make the arrest unlawful.

Ok,

I’ll give you a for instance.

You arrive at your car to discover the mirror broken off. Just down the road there are two local ‘heads’ laughing and pointing in your direction.

You go down and arrest them both for criminal damage.

Later on it transpires that the two had nothing to do with the damage to your car and both could supply an alibi as too their whereabouts.

Result – you face civil action for depriving these 'up standing members of the community' :rolleyes: of their liberty and possible criminal action for assault.

(But you were so sure it was them, it was them.....it had too be them)


On the other hand, if you had actually seeing them damage your car (proof beyond reasonable doubt) you would have been justified in your actions.

It is the same for security, bouncers etc.

MagicSean

D.McC wrote: »

Ok,

I’ll give you a for instance.

You arrive at your car to discover the mirror broken off. Just down the road there are two local ‘heads’ laughing and pointing in your direction.

You go down and arrest them both for criminal damage.

Later on it transpires that the two had nothing to do with the damage to your car and both could supply an alibi as too their whereabouts.

Result – you face civil action for depriving these 'up standing members of the community' :rolleyes: of their liberty and possible criminal action for assault.

(But you were so sure it was them, it was them.....it had too be them)


On the other hand, if you had actually seeing them damage your car (proof beyond reasonable doubt) you would have been justified in your actions.

It is the same for security, bouncers etc.

Your example is incorrect.

Scenario 1 - You come back to your car and the window is broken. A man is standing beside it with a baseball bat. You arrest him. CCTV later shows a different man smashing your window and the man you arrested coming along and picking up the bat. Your arrest is lawful as an arrestable offence has been committed and you have reasonable grounds for believing he did it.

Scenario 2 - You come back to your car and notice the car beside you has a broken window. There is a man standing beside it with a bat. You arrest him but it later turns out that the window was broken when the driver parked the car so no offence had been committed. Your arrest is unlawful as no arretable offence was committed.

It all boils down to wether an arrestable offence has been committed or not.

MagicSean

I'll give you another example. I came out of a pub a while back and heard a bang and two people ran by me. If i had been a Garda i could have arrested them both as I had a suspicion that an offence had been committed and they were responsable. As a civilian i can do nothing because I have no idea if an offence has been committed.

There are two things to look at when talking about citizens arrest

1 Has an offence been committed? This is either a definite yes or a no. If an offence has not been committed there is no power of arrest for a civilian.

2 Did the person commit the offence? All that is needed is a reasonable suspicion that a person committed the offence.

cushtac

charlemont wrote: »

Id lock onto the bouncer with my teeth, and every time the scumbag looks in the mirror, he would remember blaming someone in the wrong...

And you would end up being done for assault causing harm, smart move.

fustrated

can anyone actually clear this up for me as i was just speaking to the guards to arrange to speak with the one called to the scene and he told me that the bouncer was within his rights to detain me on suspicion of theft and this would be normal practice

D.McC

k_mac wrote: »

I'll give you another example. I came out of a pub a while back and heard a bang and two people ran by me. If i had been a Garda i could have arrested them both as I had a suspicion that an offence had been committed and they were responsable.

Agreed, the Garda need only have a reasonible suspicion that an offence has been committed. He / she can affect an arrest to aid the investigation.

k_mac wrote: »

As a civilian i can do nothing because I have no idea if an offence has been committed.

Also correct. But in the case of this bouncer he had no proof that an offence had been committed, let alone who committed the offence.

In reality, all he knew for sure was that the owner and her purse had become separated.

The bouncer is not empowered to affect an arrest to aid the investigation.

For the bouncer (in this case) to affect a lawful arrest he must have actually witnessed the offence.

In other word - proof beyond reasonible doubt

MagicSean

D.McC wrote: »

Agreed, the Garda need only have a reasonible suspicion that an offence has been committed. He / she can effect an arrest to aid the investigation.



Also correct. But in the case of this bouncer he had no proof that an offence had been committed, let alone who committed the offence.

In reality, all he knew for sure was that the owner and her purse had become separated.

The bouncer is not empowered to affect an arrest to aid the investigation.

For the bouncer (in this case) to affect a lawful arrest he must have actually witnessed the offence.

No he doesn't. Section 4 (1) requires him to witness it. Section 4 (2) does not. We don't know what evidence he had that an offence had been committed. It doesn't really matter. If the purse was actually stolen he is within his rights to arrest someone he believes has committed the offence and hand them over to Gardaí.

FruitLover

fustrated wrote: »

can anyone actually clear this up for me as i was just speaking to the guards to arrange to speak with the one called to the scene and he told me that the bouncer was within his rights to detain me on suspicion of theft and this would be normal practice

Speak to a solicitor. They will be able to give you more definitive answers (I reckon you at very least have a reasonable assault case, provided you have witnesses).

MagicSean

fustrated wrote: »

can anyone actually clear this up for me as i was just speaking to the guards to arrange to speak with the one called to the scene and he told me that the bouncer was within his rights to detain me on suspicion of theft and this would be normal practice

We can't really advise you on your particular case as we do not know the full facts and it would breach the charter. You should consult a solicitor and go ahead with your statement to the Gardaí.

D.McC

K_Mac Let me put this, another way.

In the scenario put forward by the OP. The bouncer, who is after all just an ordinary citizen, exceeded his authority by detaining and subsequently assaulting the OP, by excessive use of force, and unlawfully searching her and her property.

The bouncer did not witness any offence been committed and had no proof that any offence had been committed, other then the accusation of the injured party.

The bouncer cannot detain the OP and investigate the accusation. At most, the bouncer could act as escort for the injured party while the injured party detained the OP. No one, other than AGS may search the accused, even if the accused invites the injured party and/or the bouncer to ‘look in my bag, if you don’t believe me’.

The very important difference between an ordinary citizen and the AGS is the rules governing when and where, and how they can affect an arrest.

In the case of AGS, they may detain any person who they reasonably suspect may have committed or is about to commit an arrestable offence. And in the follow up investigation they can gather evidence needed to prosecute.

An ordinary citizen must have proof beyond reasonable doubt that the person they detain has committed an arrestable offence. They may not detain anyone simply on suspicion of an offence having been committed or is about to be committed, and then gather evidence of the offence in a follow up investigation.

So, too answer the OP question once and for all.

IMO The bouncer unlawfully detained the OP against there will. He subsequently assaulted the OP and deprived her of her liberty. He defamed her character, and lessoned her standing within her community.

On a side note – the first thing taught to people in the security industry is the mantra of if in doubt, let them out!

MagicSean

You don't appear to be reading the statute or my posts so this is pointless arguing. In any case, in the ops case we have no idea what the bouncer knew so we can only speculate as to what proof he had.

Lawstudent5

McCormack v Olsthoorn
Anyone know of any other cases where the Proprietor was absolved in defamation cases involving theft?