RWD in frost / snow

Chartsengrafs

Hi,

I've wanted a 3 series pretty much as long as I can remember and finally got one this week. I'm pretty thrilled with it- it's an 06 model. Thing is I've only now started hearing of the dangers of RWD in icy weather (yeah I know... just now).

Should I be concerned about this? We're at the start of what we're told will be a cold snap. I read through some other threads- seems like practicing in car parks in sub zero weather is a good idea. Has anyone any comments?

Thanks

Anan1

I drove an E90 last winter, and it was quite frankly appalling. I mean getting stuck on speed ramps bad - i'd either get winter tyres on it or leave it at home on the bad days.

Matt Simis

Deflate the tires a bit (presuming you are on Summers, dont do this on Winters) and put weight (50KG+) in the boot. Find a empty carpark, ideally one with a wide roundabout to practice on.

If you go into a slide, dont panic and dont slam on the brakes. All about gentle control.

Your 2006 BMW will have quite advanced Traction/Slip control so dont be too freaked out, but do practice. Also make sure you have more than enough coolant in it, I just bought a car and I swear the "coolant" looked as clear as water.

voxpop

Throw a load of weight in the boot, keep spare undies in the glovebox

R.O.R

I'm currently in an E90, and not worried in the slightest about the ice or snow - because it's a ****in' 316 that's about to pop a coil AGAIN. Damn thing doesn't have enough power to spin on sheet ice.

If you can, try to find somewhere safe to practice driving to the limit in your new car. Somewhere large enough that when you hit the limit of grip, it's not going to damage you, the car or anyone else.

I learnt to drive in a RWD car and thankfully had a huge, empty, snow covered car park all to myself shortly after I passed my test. Finding out how far I could push the car, and what happens when it's close to the edge of grip has been absolutley invaluable.

bmw535d

i tried too move my 5series on 2 inches of snow out side the house last year and it got about 3 inches before both wheels where spinning at idle revs in first gear, i didn't even touch the throttle just lifted the clutch slowly and it would move, that was with good year run-flats. bottom line, BMW= park it up when snowy/icy.

Avns1s

Matt Simis wrote: »

Deflate the tires a bit (presuming you are on Summers, dont do this on Winters) and put weight (50KG+) in the boot. Find a empty carpark, ideally one with a wide roundabout to practice on.

If you go into a slide, dont panic and dont slam on the brakes. All about gentle control.

Your 2006 BMW will have quite advanced Traction/Slip control so dont be too freaked out, but do practice. Also make sure you have more than enough coolant in it, I just bought a car and I swear the "coolant" looked as clear as water.

I think that advice relates back to the time of crossply tyres or something but it's bad advice nowadays in any case. Tyres have most thread in contact with the road when they are correctly inflated and this will apply equally when in frost and ice situations.

There would be some merit in putting some extra weight in the boot of a RWD car alright. Waste of time in a FWD car though.

hairyman

I was running an 89 E30 316(not much power but no electronic black magic either) during the big freeze last year and never really encountered any brown moments. Once you keep your speed down, drive slowly enough into a bend so you do not have to rely on the brakes or throttle lift off.
Read the road and allow sufficient space between you and the car in front(same can be said for any drive train).
The only major draw back was to the entrance of my estate where there was a steepish hill, the car always went up in reverse.

Remember!!!
F$CK the impatient w@nker in the SUV behind you, all you want to do is get yourself and your car home in one piece, so don't let impatient people force you to go faster than you feel is comfortable or safe.

Matt Simis

Avns1s wrote: »

I think that advice relates back to the time of crossply tyres or something but it's bad advice nowadays in any case. Tyres have most thread in contact with the road when they are correctly inflated and this will apply equally when in frost and ice situations.

Seemed to help on all the Tires I tried it with. My understanding was the less pressure the softer the tire allowing it to heat up faster, which is the issue with Summer tyres, the rubber remains hard and useless in the cold. Im open to correction, will looking into this more.

Avns1s wrote: »

There would be some merit in putting some extra weight in the boot of a RWD car alright. Waste of time in a FWD car though.

The 316 in question isnt FWD...

DublinWriter

My 320D E46 was a total nightmare when the last freeze hit.

Tried turning ASC on and off, off was best as it allowed to wheels to at least skid.

It took me ages to get over Campbells Bridge in Finglas...even roads with a slight slope were a nightmare.

I eventually got home two hours later and the old pair of Nankangs on the back wheel were down to the wire mesh in parts.

Avns1s

Matt Simis wrote: »

Seemed to help on all the Tires I tried it with. My understanding was the less pressure the softer the tire allowing it to heat up faster, which is the issue with Summer tyres, the rubber remains hard and useless in the cold. Im open to correction, will looking into this more....

Perhaps the heat will help, though I would expect if you're driving in snow or on ice, your thread temp will be pretty close to 0 degrees regardless of how warm the sidewall is. When you take the wear patterns of an underinflated and over inflated tyre into account, you can see why it would have less contact with the ground / ice / snow.

Matt Simis wrote: »

The 316 in question isnt FWD...

Yep, I know that. I was making a general statement.

Cuddlesworth

Matt Simis wrote: »

Seemed to help on all the Tires I tried it with. My understanding was the less pressure the softer the tire allowing it to heat up faster, which is the issue with Summer tyres, the rubber remains hard and useless in the cold. Im open to correction, will looking into this more.

Doesn't make sense tbh.

voxpop

DublinWriter wrote: »

My 320D E46 was a total nightmare when the last freeze hit.

Tried turning ASC on and off, off was best as it allowed to wheels to at least skid.

It took me ages to get over Campbells Bridge in Finglas...even roads with a slight slope were a nightmare.

I eventually got home two hours later and the old pair of Nankangs on the back wheel were down to the wire mesh in parts.

Better to leave ASC on - they did a thing on 5th gear where Tiff was driving with different assists on or off - basically all the electronics on is better than off.

Good tires on the rear are a must.

edit :found it - although I think its in an fwd car - still same principles apply re: stability control,etc :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3m24bjkfg0

Anan1

Matt Simis wrote: »

Seemed to help on all the Tires I tried it with. My understanding was the less pressure the softer the tire allowing it to heat up faster, which is the issue with Summer tyres, the rubber remains hard and useless in the cold. Im open to correction, will looking into this more.

I like that reasoning, but I fear a combination of low-speed driving and stiff RFT sidewallls would defeat it.

deandean

One advantage of the Beemers in slippy conditions is that with the 50:50 weight distribution, they are fairly controllable when at the limit. Most FWD cars i have driven, have terrible understeer once they lose front grip.

As others have posted - you absolutely gotta get some practice in in an icy car park / industrial estate. Keep the speed down. And have fun - it's great craic.

Anan1

deandean wrote: »

One advantage of the Beemers in slippy conditions is that with the 50:50 weight distribution, they are fairly controllable when at the limit. Most FWD cars i have driven, have terrible understeer once they lose front grip.

In fairness, it's hard to slide when your car is totally immobilized.

dergside

Due to family circumstances I was on the road waaayyy more than I would have liked htrough the cold snap. All the miles were done in my e39 523i or Mrs D's e46 328i Touring without any drama's.

On the move, conservative driving appropriate to the conditions will help avoid a lot of woe. A bit of common sense will avoid a whole other set of potential worries. If its frosty or snowy, try to avoid parking a car on a gradient, particularly facing uphill, etc!

To the OP, don't be afraid of RWD. As mentioned by another poster, the tidy handling and balanced weight distribution of most BMW's since the e30, and a host of nanny features on newer ones, complement a smooth driving style.

Matt Simis

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

Doesn't make sense tbh.

?? What exactly, the bit you bolded?
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=1

bmw535d

if your stuck on a hill in a beemer in your case a newer one you should press the dsc traction control button once to switch off the full esp and turn on dtc(dynamic traction control. this lets your wheels spin a bit so you can get up the hill rather than the full dsc cutting the power too much meaning your not going anywhere. its fairly well explained in the manual anyway, i still say you should park it up in bad conditions if you don't want to see the wrong side of a hedge.

djimi

Last winter when it snowed I was stuck on an icy hill with about another 100 cars. The FWD and 4x4s made it to the top eventually. The RWD stayed at the bottom. I watched a bloke in a RWD BMW literally spin 360 in an attempt to go up and ended up going nowhere.

Careful driving will make it managable so long as you are sensible, but there are going to be situations where you are simply not going to make it not matter how well you can drive.

Chartsengrafs

Great, thanks all. Plenty of food for thought. I don't do huge mileage anyway and wasn't fond of driving in icy conditions in my Golf anyway so have no problem parking the new car up. Good to know it's manageable (to an extent).

peasant

get winter tyres and grow some balls

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2kAnMK-xOA

Chartsengrafs

Nice! To be honest I've a healthy disregard for my own safety descending mountains on my racing bike (yeah I know...cyclist!) but I just have reservations about doing damage to the car!!! Money and all that..

seanyleary

RWD+SNOW=FUN.
I had a E36 328 sport and now have an E39 528, i think its great fun, traction control off or you wont get very far. If it does slid you have lots of time to correct it as you wont be going that fast .
ENJOY.

Gary ITR

I was driving an Auto RWD last winter, my Berlingo with barely legal tyres (yes TYRES not teens :P) was much better in the snow

biko

If you're driving around town and it's really icy plan so that you don't have to drive up steep hills if you can.

It's gets better at 2.25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0FjntOZV58

mathepac

peasant wrote: »

get winter tyres ...

Preferably skinny studded ones as fitted to the skinny wheels in the video.

Nforce

No real problems for my E46 320d during the last cold snap.TC was left on.

BostonB

deandean wrote: »

One advantage of the Beemers in slippy conditions is that with the 50:50 weight distribution, they are fairly controllable when at the limit. Most FWD cars i have driven, have terrible understeer once they lose front grip....

Isn't that the point? FWD/Understeer is more controllable (recoverable) for most people, than overseer.

Mahatma coat

Reality Check People, the B part of BMW Stands For BAVARIA, Which AFAIK is in the Alps, with Hills and Snow and stuff.

Surely therefore we can presume that the designers of the vehicles were at least aware of the issue of Icy Hills.

So To be Blunt, its not the cars Fault YOU cant drive in the Snow.


However you dont NEED Ice to practice on, A Big Field of wet Grass will replicate 60 - 80 % of the conditions

BostonB

There also this...

Germany

Motorists are obliged to make sure they have correct tyres to suit the winter weather conditions. This may mean the use of winter tyres (with M&S or snowflake symbol) and in extreme weather, the additional use of snow chains.

Vehicles with summer tyres fitted are not allowed to be driven on roads covered with snow and ice. Fines are in place for vehicles found to be doing so.

People here were trying to drive on sports tyres on snow/ice.

Mahatma coat

Ah Yeah, That would Cause them some problems Alright, but It'll be fine this year, Seeing as how the Germans are in Charge of the Country now

Joe 90

BostonB wrote: »

Isn't that the point? FWD/Understeer is more controllable (recoverable) for most people, than overseer.

Oversteer scares passengers, understeer scares drivers.

Elessar

The snow is a nightmare for me in my 2001 BMW 320 coupe! My house happens to be at the top of steep incline and my driveway is uphill too. If I managed to get the car up the road, I can NEVER get it in the driveway I have to park it down the road and walk up.

Watching all my neighbours manage just fine in their FWDs is annoying! Can't stand the snow because of this!!

Seriously thinking of buying a new Golf soon and this weather is pushing me over the edge...

Big Nasty

I've owned maybe 20 different cars and probably driven twice as many again over the years, mostly RWD. The thing with snow / ice can only be learned through experience. I have no problem driving a RWD in most conditions and actually prefer it as when front wheels are spinning and you're trying to steer in a FWD its understeer city.

Was out in my 7 this morning and not a bother on it. The key is to keep the gears high, the revs low and at all costs keep moving unless you absoultely, positively have to stop. Momentum is the key. That said if you're on a hill and somebody inexperienced is sitting in their FWD in second gear with their foot planted to the floor and the engine screaming while the car is going nowhere you're absolutely fcuked! Reason being they'll eventually come to a standstill after having compacted the snow / ice with their spining wheels and when they eventually get out of your way you've generally very little chance of getting moving up that hill yourself. In that case roll back down to a more level position where you can move off from and have a clear run and you'll be grand.

When starting off from a standstill in icy conditions use the clutch to get you moving and dont press the accelerator until you have gained some momentum. In an auto just put it in drive and let the car crawl until you've gained some momentum. If you have tiptronic use it to keep the gear high once you have started moving.

By the way, I think you jinxed us all by starting this thread yesterday and having us all wake up to a blanket of snow this morning!

Have fun!

Big Nasty

Elessar wrote: »

The snow is a nightmare for me in my 2001 BMW 320 coupe! My house happens to be at the top of steep incline and my driveway is uphill too. If I managed to get the car up the road, I can NEVER get it in the driveway I have to park it down the road and walk up.

Watching all my neighbours manage just fine in their FWDs is annoying! Can't stand the snow because of this!!

Seriously thinking of buying a new Golf soon and this weather is pushing me over the edge...

As per my post above I firmly believe it's more to do with the driver than the car in these conditions. Of course FWD has its benefits but IMO RWD has its own too. I had no problem today in my RWD but have had to go out three times now to help neighbours get up the hill where we live: 1 man; 2 women; one Golf (FWD), one Seat Leon (FWD and pretty much same car as a Golf), one BMW 320 Touring (RWD) - man was driving the 3er. Got them all out with no major hassle while they were just sitting there literally spinning their wheels.

knifey_spoonie

I was so tempted to take the supra out, and head to the local industrial estate. Really all you can do is take your time, and be smoth with the controls.

I was driving along today and some fool overtook me, just before a humpback bridge which exits onto a left hander. I came over the bridge to find him in the grass verge. Oh how i laughed.

Take it hand and you will be grand

Hanley

Elessar wrote: »

The snow is a nightmare for me in my 2001 BMW 320 coupe! My house happens to be at the top of steep incline and my driveway is uphill too. If I managed to get the car up the road, I can NEVER get it in the driveway I have to park it down the road and walk up.

Watching all my neighbours manage just fine in their FWDs is annoying! Can't stand the snow because of this!!

Seriously thinking of buying a new Golf soon and this weather is pushing me over the edge...

Reverse up your driveway?

waxon-waxoff

I used to have a 318is E36, used to slide around when pulling away from lights in the ice. Traction control made no difference. Parked it in an underground for two weeks until it thawed

Elessar

Hanley wrote: »

Reverse up your driveway?

Tried that, she just slides off as I get to the driveway entrance. No matter how easy I am on the clutch and accelerator the end result is the same. Will not budge past the path. I just got as far as I could off the street and left it there :mad:

Pain in the hole.

SV

biko wrote: »

If you're driving around town and it's really icy plan so that you don't have to drive up steep hills if you can.

It's gets better at 2.25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0FjntOZV58

Probably the funniest thing I've seen today...

slimjimmc

Elessar wrote: »

Tried that, she just slides off as I get to the driveway entrance. No matter how easy I am on the clutch and accelerator the end result is the same. Will not budge past the path. I just got as far as I could off the street and left it there :mad:

Pain in the hole.

Plonk 100kg or so in the boot, or get a couple of those neighbours to sit in the back. That should give you enough weight over the driving wheels to get up hill in reverse.

wersal gummage

out this morning early and no problem whatsoever in a 318ci - and this was on the snow and ice in a housing estate - dont see what all the hassle is about. i reckon its clumsy right feet that has people saying you have to leave your car at home until the snow is gone. pure rubbish!

Alanstrainor

I saw a guy in an E90 320i coupe sliding up to a corner, waiting to join a main road. And putting the boot down to get onto the road. Which resulted in the whole car spinning around, he was lucky he didn't hit anything. What was worse, is that he just floored it again when he regained his composure!

Matt Simis

wersal gummage wrote: »

out this morning early and no problem whatsoever in a 318ci - and this was on the snow and ice in a housing estate - dont see what all the hassle is about. i reckon its clumsy right feet that has people saying you have to leave your car at home until the snow is gone. pure rubbish!

You realise that one day of frost does not make a winter right? Over the next several weeks ice will compact and form on top more ice.

Shane732

I agree with MCMLXXV they key is momentum. If you have to stop in a RWD BMW then you're pretty much f*c*ed.

BTW the city wasn't that bad at all today. There will be far worse I'd imagine.

If you're a sensible driver and don't attempt anything stupid then you're ok in a RWD. Granted you won't be getting up knockmaroon hill in 2 foot of snow!

MarkN

wersal gummage wrote: »

out this morning early and no problem whatsoever in a 318ci - and this was on the snow and ice in a housing estate - dont see what all the hassle is about. i reckon its clumsy right feet that has people saying you have to leave your car at home until the snow is gone. pure rubbish!

A 318? Try driving a 400+ bhp RWD on the conditions we have and you'll see that they're useless!

wersal gummage

MarkN wrote: »

A 318? Try driving a 400+ bhp RWD on the conditions we have and you'll see that they're useless!

no thanks. petrol, tax and insurance is already more than enough for me (and anyway, you dont use 400bhp to accelerate away from a starting position in snow - and if you do - sure no wonder you think a rwd car is useless!).

Armin_Tamzarian

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Ah the if in doubt keep her lit! Its one of my favourite mottos

If in doubt, flat out as they say in Cavan.

I've just driven to Cork, was a nightmare for the first half of the trip.
Took some amount of messing just to get out of the drive (there's a slope).
Had one ridiculous episode at a T-junction though when I had to stop.
Car just wouldn't go forward so I ended up having to do a reverse 270deg manouvere.

TBH I wouldn't take a RWD out in icy conditions unless I really had to, they're useless.

MarkN

wersal gummage wrote: »

no thanks. petrol, tax and insurance is already more than enough for me (and anyway, you dont use 400bhp to accelerate away from a starting position in snow - and if you do - sure no wonder you think a rwd car is useless!).

Well I've only experience of FWD, Quattro, stupid quick RWD and normal power RWD in ice and snow but sure you know best. If you think power and the amount of it that comes from pressing a pedal is all the same from car to car once you're just at a starting position you should start back at the start. Grand Turismo 5 is great, you won't harm other road users that way.

Victor Meldrew

MCMLXXV wrote: »

The key is to keep the gears high, the revs low and at all costs keep moving unless you absoultely, positively have to stop. Momentum is the key. That said if you're on a hill and somebody inexperienced is sitting in their FWD in second gear with their foot planted to the floor and the engine screaming while the car is going nowhere you're absolutely fcuked! Reason being they'll eventually come to a standstill after having compacted the snow / ice with their spining wheels

Good advice (including the stuff I edited out for brevity)

Some of my neighbours have a habit of polishing the ice on our road in these conditions. there is a small hill which you have to get up to get to our cul-de-sac. :rolleyes:

On the gears issue, you'd be amazed what you can do in third...