How much did you pay for your website??

KELTAS

just wondering how much I can expect to pay for:

website construction
domain registration
web hosting
web optimization
web design
configuration of personalised e-mails

also

business card & logo design & business card printing.

I'm a sole trader offer English Language Tuition and Admin Services so it would be a pretty basic website and there wouldn't be much work needed on the website once it's set up.


Thanks

Atlas_IRL

Hi Keltas try using wordpress yourself as its fairly easy. To start on your research search for language wordpress themes Find a good one and edit it yourself. You can get a logo and some changes done if you want then just learn about available plugins and widgets and you can make a great looking site for practically nothing. If i was making something small i would use wordpress, as anyone can use it. Their is plugins for all the major email campaign companies as well as far as i know. If you know basic seo (or want to learn it) their are very good seo plugins for wordpress.

EIREHotspur

I will tell you what I tell a lot of people I meet who approach me for such websites.
Don't waste your money on a website if you don't intend to update it.
You might as well spend the money on flyers and hand them out for people to throw away.
You have to make a website relevant to your business or it is a complete waste of time and money.

Rough Prices (per year for hosting & domain name)

website construction - is from 500euro to 1,000euro
domain registration - ie name is 30euro, .com name is 10euro
web hosting - Irish Webhost is 50euro
web optimization
web design - is the same as website construction
configuration of personalised e-mails - depends on if you can instructions by email

also

business card & logo design & business card printing. - you could get logo designed 100-200euro and have another company print it.

** Edit - Or do like Atlas said...good advice!

way2tall

Well worth investing in a domain name .. you can use it to hang all other parts of your online presence off .. Very cheap as well - Blacknight.com (Irish Company) sells Irish (.ie.) and others - Or lots of US Internet Hosts offer domain name deals..

As mentioned wordpress.com and drupalgardens.com are websites where you can build your own website - these work well for simple easily maintainable sites. They are free to use if you use a subdomain - i.e. mybusiness.wordpress.com but if you have time a great free way of building a prototype and understanding a bit better what is possible.

Costs are always going to be variable - depending on the 'grade' and complexity of the site .. the ball park figures given in other mails are all very fair .. obviously the sky is the limit ..

But for a really budget option you can probably get a simple site built and launched and hosted for the numbers mentioned

I'd say also that it depends on your level of technical competence and whether you have an interest in 'owning' the site or whether you just want it all handled by a third party. Reduce complexity, but increased cost - there are people on adverts.ie offering to build websites for a couple of 100 euro

If you are going to muck in - then there are lots of ways of reducing the costs

- You can buy your own domain
- You can sign up to Google Apps to get free business e-mail
- If Wordpress / Drupal made sense to you could redirect your domain to the website you experimented with. i.e. you could make www.mybusiness.com 'point' to mybusiness.wordpress.com
- Create your facebook page with links to and from your website
- Create a twitter account with links to and from your website
- Register your business on Google Local and other directories

Cost .. 10 $ for the domain, 15$ for custom domain on wordpress

Technical Complexity - Medium
- Need to learn wordpress / drupal - benefit is that you can then easily update content and change and refresh your site (http://wpsitebuilding.com/)
- Need to do some pretty technical stuff with your host - but you could probably pay some one to do that
- Might need to pay for some training on wordpress or drupal

Self Managed Hosting and Maintenance
- You could just setup a very simple site by creating a couple of pages
- You can set up a simple site structure and a very static page

(-or- Install your own copy of version of Wordpress, Joomla or Drupal )

Benefits - Complete control over your website - ability to tie in ecommerce and sell things

Much more complexity again depends on how experienced you are with technology..

Cost - 10$Domain, 60Euro Hosting (approx)

Both of these are reasonably cheap approaches .. for design work for business cards and logos .. consider 99designs.com .. although most creatives will argue strongly that this is the devil and that the results are lack any kind of 'brand understanding' etc.. but still can be a cheap option .. even going to Snap Printing could be a cheap option .. I got cards and logo and things designed for 50 euro .. admittedly it was rubbish but you get what you pay for ..

Anyway ... what it comes down to is how long is a piece of string .. It really really depends on what your expectations are .. how much you are prepared to pay and how much of the work you'd want to do your self ..

If you do go down the DIY approach .. you'll find lots o useful information on the web .. and if you do have specific questions .. quick plug ... you might find answers on www.theITtree.com . a web site I am currently building where small businesses can post IT related questions and get advice

unklerosco

I started off by doing everything myself. I used serifs range of software (webplus and pageplus) to design my website n flyers/posters/bus cards etc.

I did that for 3/4 years and am now in the process of getting a new website done. It's costing about €2500. Reason I'm paying to have it done is there's alot of work going into the backend of the site that I could never do myself. Doing it myself to start off with was the best way for me to go tho... I was able to change the website constantly (for free) as the business grew. Deffo saved me a good bit of cash..

As for stationary etc. I still do all that myself. I do use freelance graphics artists to design certain elements but I do the rest myself, something I've always enjoyed and the software I use is a since to get to grips with...

nellyshark

domain registration - Dependent on TLD
web hosting - Dependent on your requirments
web optimization - SEO and marketing?
website construction & web design - Dependent on functionality and your requirements
configuration of personalised e-mails - Dont know what you mean.

business card & business card printing - shop around
logo design - along with the web construction and design should cost the most. Looking for a Logo Design or Branding?

MrMatisse

I wouldnt spend less than 1.5k/2k, I did twice!

The first site was absolute rubbish, I could have done a better job and Im about as artisic as a sledgehammer

The second time the guy decided to persue a musical career half way through the build.

Im trying again, this time with a proper budget.

These I.T folk that are good, know their good and so charge a prcie to reflect the demand for their skills

YouProduce

You can also get crap designers that charge more to portray themselves as better than they are. You really have to get good referals:/

EIREHotspur

Really-Stressed wrote: »

I wouldnt spend less than 1.5k/2k, I did twice!

The first site was absolute rubbish, I could have done a better job and Im about as artisic as a sledgehammer

The second time the guy decided to persue a musical career half way through the build.

Im trying again, this time with a proper budget.

These I.T folk that are good, know their good and so charge a prcie to reflect the demand for their skills

I agree what your saying about the "IT People" charging to reflect the demand on their skills. Offices, Wages, Expenses have to be paid for.
Freelance people will do better deals....they are frowned upon by companies as "cheapening the market".

Any Freelancer/Solo Web Designer worth their salt will build you a database driven website for 2k.

KELTAS

Thanks to everyone who replied.
Lots of info to ponder over, especially considering the wide range of options / prices out there.
Think I have my work cut out for me!

tomED

Yeah prices differ majorly in this industry.

It's easy to establish though what your money will be spent on. For example, if you pay less than €1,500 on a website, the chances are it's a cheap and nasty solution.

Why do I say this? Well A good web designer will cost a company anywhere from €30-45k per annum. If you take a mean of say €35k per annum, that would mean to hire the designer alone would cost around €730 per week (accounting for holidays).

So if you were to say that a typical website would take 2 weeks work from start to finish (if done professionally) that would mean that to the company has only made a profit of €40.

This clearly doesn't take into account the running costs of the business such as office rent, phone calls, heating, etc etc etc.

Japer

A good website designer can get a basic website up + running in an hour or two. You can even get templates off the web and do it yourself. I have seen good websites done for a few hundred euro. Price around lots + lots of companies / web design students / whoever , look at work + prices carefully, do not get ripped off.

tomED

Japer wrote: »

A good website designer can get a basic website up + running in an hour or two.

Well that shows how little you know about web design and the whole process of web design.

A proper web designer will spend at least 1-2 hours working on a design brief with you before even opening up a graphics program to start designing.

From there, it could take 1-2 days to put something worthy of presenting a client togetther. If the client doesn't like the design, it could be back to the drawing board all over again or there could even be minor ammendments.

So yeah, if you want a really poor web site with absolutely no thought into how the website will function, hwo it will be branded and how you will achieve the ultimate goal of the website, get someone who's only going to spend 2 hours on it...

Japer wrote: »

You can even get templates off the web and do it yourself.

That's not web design, that's taking other peoples work and using it for yourself. Real web design companies don't do this.

There is of course a market for that type of work, but please don't compare it to web design or a professional web design company.

Japer wrote: »

I have seen good websites done for a few hundred euro.

Would be interesting to see the ones you think are good...

Japer wrote: »

Price around lots + lots of companies / web design students / whoever , look at work + prices carefully, do not get ripped off.

Can't disagree that you should look around and make sure you don't get ripped off - but please make sure you are comparing apples with apples and not apples with oranges.

People's general lack of understanding of what is involved in designing a website is why we have such a huge difference in prices.

So ask for others advice of what they have done, if they get what they want from their website and if it really works for them.

Ask them how well they appear in the search engines for searches relating to their work. Ask them about their conversion ratios etc etc

Cianos

There is a world of difference between a good site and a bad site. Unfortunately the majority of sites out there are terrible. Most SME's underestimate the importance of the web, which is only going to increase with time.

If you're going to do it, do it right. Your website is how you present yourself to the world. You wouldn't go in to a business meeting wearing an old worn out suit, so showing an old worn out site to customers looking you up online is just as bad.

You can get a website online for a minimal amount, but chances are it's going to look bad. If you do it yourself, sure you're going to save money, but again if the end product looks bad and has taken you dozens of hours to do, has it actually been worth it?

In summary, I'll echo what others have said and advise everyone to shop around. Don't just go with the first guy, or your wifes brothers son who 'knows how to make a website'. Find someone who will give you the time the project deserves, and who has a real eye for progressive design. Don't get caught up in fancy extras that they want to sell you to hike up the price. A good site is usually static and simple, so stick with that for a start.

Also, take advantage of the Website Reviews forum if you feel your site could be better.

EIREHotspur

Cianos wrote: »

A good site is usually static and simple, so stick with that for a start.

Agreed with you up to this point.

A Good website is dynamic and modern.

Simple static websites (brochure websites) get one or two visits per person and then there is never a reason to come back.

Shop around and then just pick a designer you like within your budget.

tombull82

I have a few Websites.

My classified site (in my sig) cost me about €200 for a start off CM system.
But then untold hours of torment trying to learn PHP - HTML - CSS - Java - Flash.

Was all worth it for the learning experience but as said a hell of alot of time involved.

I also have/had some WP / Joomla / Oscommerece sites which are so much easier to do, Also the are all Freeware

In my humble opinion.

I would start off with a DIY WordPress site, these are great and very easy for a beginner, plus easy optimised for google etc.
Get some simple analytics's tracking .(I prefer GetClicky)

This option will cost you next to nothing (aprt from maybe ~€50 for hosting and then a domain name)

If you start seeing big traffic and you believe the site is bringing value to your business, then maybe invest in getting a professional job done for you.

Tom

Cianos

EIREHotspur wrote: »

Agreed with you up to this point.

A Good website is dynamic and modern.

Simple static websites (brochure websites) get one or two visits per person and then there is never a reason to come back.

Shop around and then just pick a designer you like within your budget.

Ah, I meant in terms of banners/flash elements etc as opposed to content. It's a lot easier to get a website wrong, and usually at a higher cost, when there are moving banners, splash screens etc.

I certainly agree that a good site has to keep its content updated.

SolarNexus

Something I like to remind clients is that your website is your store front. If you skimp on signage, your going to look pretty bad compared with your neighbors.

I cant speak for other people in this thread but for myself, In the past I've charged 200eur per day and offer an optional retainer of 150 p/m for support minor maintenance (mainly for peace of mind). So if you calculate that out, your talking between 1,500 and 2,500 Euro for a decent sized website. For most SME's though, your probably talking well under 1,500 -it all depends on what *you* want from your site.

Whatever you do, don't listen to Japer, that mindset is not only wrong but is offensive to anyone who works in this industry.

While it is true that if your even mildly technically literate you can probably install the likes of word press and download themes etc. this is hardly what any of us would call "web design". It is because it is easy to do that you, as a business owner, should avoid doing so. If you can download word press, install some random free theme as your website, then so can countless of others. The point of a website is to be noticeable, not to blend in with the crowd.

I think I went off on a tangent there. In any case, prices between places will fluctuate and not necessarily in line with competency or skill. If you can, only go with places you have been recommended by people you trust, or who have some sort of portfolio you can look at.

As a personal comment, I wouldn't spend less than 1,500 on a website for a professional business.

tricky D

The store front analogy is good, but in a way the whole store analogy also applies. There's a hell of a lot more to deal with than just the signage just like a real world bricks 'n' mortar store. Security, product arrangement, presentation, hygiene, maintenance, advertising, marketing, access and a load of other matters which are not trivially sorted out in a couple of hours, if you're doing it properly.

The problems with platforms and frameworks is inflexibility and bad practices. You have to conform so any change not catered for in the framework can have disproportionate overhead which kills the initial value of using that method. What initially seemed to be good value is exposed as being merely cheap and bad value in the long run. So when shopping around value is more important than price unless you like to fly your business on a plane built by the lowest bidder.

Unfortunately, getting a designer who really knows their stuff and can get that value for your business is another matter as the barrier to entry into web design is extremely low.

SolarNexus

tricky D wrote: »

The store front analogy is good, but in a way the whole store analogy also applies. There's a hell of a lot more to deal with than just the signage just like a real world bricks 'n' mortar store. Security, product arrangement, presentation, hygiene, maintenance, advertising, marketing, access and a load of other matters which are not trivially sorted out in a couple of hours, if you're doing it properly.

Yeah, I agree. Its hard to find a good analogy that really completely encompasses all the aspects of a website - its your storefront, your advertising, your letter box, your product catalog. In many respects, a website is not just a reflection on a business, it often *is* the business.

tricky D wrote: »

Unfortunately, getting a designer who really knows their stuff and can get that value for your business is another matter as the barrier to entry into web design is extremely low.

I couldn't agree more and I think this is a very important point to take notice of. Many times people have sold their "services" while claiming a lot more experience than they really have. When your starting out that's pretty unavoidable, but as a client you really want to be clear on something: If someone gives you a low-ball estimate for a website, without the expectation or promise of future work, then chances are they are desperate for the work. If someone is desperate for work in web design, they are either extremely unpleasant to deal with, incompetent or just not very experienced.

This is actually true the other way around. I've made the mistake of under pricing my services in the past and all it did was attract a very undesirable sort of client. Which is now why my prices are what they are, it weeds out the undesirables and ensures that the incentive is there that I, as a service provider, please my client as much as possible.

Japer

SolarNexus wrote: »

If someone gives you a low-ball estimate for a website.......

shop around and take it. I remember Michael O'Leary ( of Ryanair ) talking about websites one day on the radio, and how some people wanted to charge him crazy money. He got two students to design his. Thats a number of years ago but still. He has done all right for himself, I would say. On the subject of website designers, he had something to say about that industry : if he had a small business, he would not pay 1500 if someone else would do the same or better job for 500 .

SolarNexus

Japer wrote: »

shop around and take it. I remember Michael O'Leary ( of Ryanair ) talking about websites one day on the radio, and how some people wanted to charge him crazy money. He got two students to design his. Thats a number of years ago but still. He has done all right for himself, I would say. On the subject of website designers, he had something to say about that industry : if he had a small business, he would not pay 1500 if someone else would do the same or better job for 500 .

Have you seen the state of ryanair's website. Its OBVIOUS he got two students to design it, it's almost as bad as PowerCity's website - they're like travelling back in time 10yrs. He is just as liable to be a penny pincher as anyone else, perhaps more so. I'd also like to point out that Ryanair probably paid those students as interns.

If Ryanair is the pennicle of cheap web design, then I think you proved my point for me.

Links:
Ryanair's website voted worst travel site

unklerosco

I've gotta agree with Solar Nexus, the Ryanair site is a disaster.. I remember when that site went live. It crashed constantly, it was a disaster!!! It's more stable now but it's so so so bad..

tricky D

Japer wrote: »

shop around and take it. I remember Michael O'Leary ( of Ryanair ) talking about websites one day on the radio, and how some people wanted to charge him crazy money. He got two students to design his. Thats a number of years ago but still. He has done all right for himself, I would say. On the subject of website designers, he had something to say about that industry : if he had a small business, he would not pay 1500 if someone else would do the same or better job for 500 .

Oh dear. You've fallen for the hype - again. It cost a hell of a lot more than that. Clue: the back end. Remember this thread? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056057475

Kinetic^

Cianos wrote: »

There is a world of difference between a good site and a bad site. Unfortunately the majority of sites out there are terrible. Most SME's underestimate the importance of the web, which is only going to increase with time.

If you're going to do it, do it right. Your website is how you present yourself to the world. You wouldn't go in to a business meeting wearing an old worn out suit, so showing an old worn out site to customers looking you up online is just as bad.

You can get a website online for a minimal amount, but chances are it's going to look bad. If you do it yourself, sure you're going to save money, but again if the end product looks bad and has taken you dozens of hours to do, has it actually been worth it?

SolarNexus wrote: »

Something I like to remind clients is that your website is your store front. If you skimp on signage, your going to look pretty bad compared with your neighbors.

+1 to both of the above posts. Your website is a representation of you and your business. If you're not going to invest in the website due to money constraints then hold off till you do have the money. I don't think you would be doing any justice to yourself or business by putting up some horrible website.

When you do speak to someone about it:

Ask for design concepts they have for your site
2-3 references and a link to their portfolio or direct to websites they've put together
Look for an estimate on price and time till completion
Contract - payments terms, eta of site, support, domain reg etc etc

Probably a few more things to throw in to that but if they can't provide the above then I'd probably avoid them. The contract may seem over the top to some but I've heard of people getting burned before so I tell any clients to try and get everything down on paper and signed by both parties.

SolarNexus

Kinetic^ wrote: »

The contract may seem over the top to some but I've heard of people getting burned before so I tell any clients to try and get everything down on paper and signed by both parties.

+1

I've had problems not putting a contract in place with people because I've known them socially for a while, assuming that they would stick to their word. Never make these assumptions, as much as you may trust a person there is no substitute for a good contract.

A good contract is not only a way to save yourself if the client or provider decides to start acting shady, but it clears the air first and foremost of what your paying for so that there is no miscommunication.

These days I wouldn't work with anyone without some sort of contract or agreement and 40-50% up front to prove that their serious.

Cianos

Regarding the RyanAir website, it may look outdated and cheap, but that's the full intention.

Michael O'Leary wants customers coming to Ryanair.com and thinking that he is skimping on web design costs, because subconsciously they equate that to the overall low cost of the entire service.

A site that looks cutting edge with modern and progressive design will look nice, but it will also suggest higher prices, luxury and exclusivity. Ryanair can certainly afford and would hire any web designer if they thought it would increase their conversion rates, but they use the current outdated looking design because when you go to Ryanair you aren't looking for cutting edge and luxury, you're looking for a cheap seat.

Design and business strategy go hand in hand. Design influences business, and business influences design. A good designer understands this, delivering an end product that will serve your business instead of just being an embellishment of it.

SolarNexus

Cianos wrote: »

Regarding the RyanAir website, it may look outdated and cheap, but that's the full intention.

Michael O'Leary wants customers coming to Ryanair.com and thinking that he is skimping on web design costs, because subconsciously they equate that to the overall low cost of the entire service.

A site that looks cutting edge with modern and progressive design will look nice, but it will also suggest higher prices, luxury and exclusivity. Ryanair can certainly afford and would hire any web designer if they thought it would increase their conversion rates, but they use the current outdated looking design because when you go to Ryanair you aren't looking for cutting edge and luxury, you're looking for a cheap seat.

Design and business strategy go hand in hand. Design influences business, and business influences design. A good designer understands this, delivering an end product that will serve your business instead of just be an embellishment of it.

All this would make perfect sense, if the site didnt crash every 5 seconds.

daithi2011

Cost me €400 for our company website.
He even gave me a little app that I can update the content whenever I want.
It costs us €30 a year now and thats it.
It looks better then most of the site of people who I know have paid thousands for theirs. Actually there are a fair few of them using my guy now instead of who they used to use.
I wont post it as it would be advertising for us and for our web man, but shop around.

SolarNexus

daithi2011 wrote: »

Cost me €400 for our company website.
He even gave me a little app that I can update the content whenever I want.
It costs us €30 a year now and thats it.
It looks better then most of the site of people who I know have paid thousands for theirs. Actually there are a fair few of them using my guy now instead of who they used to use.
I wont post it as it would be advertising for us and for our web man, but shop around.

I think when you make a claim like that, it behooves you to back it up with some sort of evidence. Especially when you are reinforcing a point of view that may be inaccurate.

I don't think anyone here said you couldn't get a website for 400euro. However getting anything more than a few simple static pages, is unlikely.

glic71rods46t0

SolarNexus wrote: »

All this would make perfect sense, if the site didnt crash every 5 seconds.

The debate is about web design - right? The design of ryanair.com has nothing to do with the booking site which is bookryanair.com
Ryanair spend serious money on their booking site with duplicate servers in Europe, America and Asia. They have one of the worlds busiest commercial websites and it crashes due traffic volumes rather than it being a cheap & nasty site!

SolarNexus

2xcn5k7ptj89e3 wrote: »

The debate is about web design - right? The design of ryanair.com has nothing to do with the booking site which is bookryanair.com
Ryanair spend serious money on their booking site with duplicate servers in Europe, America and Asia. They have one of the worlds busiest commercial websites and it crashes due traffic volumes rather than it being a cheap & nasty site!

bookryanair.com redirects to ryanair.com - they are the same website.

In any case, we're focusing too much one one company. Whether Ryanair managed to get their website dirt cheap and that it works for them does not mean it is going to be true for everyone. Ryanair want to give the impression that they are cheap, not all companies do, in fact I'd say a select few do; so suggesting that all companies should base the estimates of web design costs on a company who by definition want to give off the cheapest image possible, is not right imho. Ryanair's website looks cheap and that's likely on purpose, that doesn't mean that in general I would recommend getting the cheapest website money can buy.

We've veered severely off topic. The main point was: how much should a website cost.

glic71rods46t0

SolarNexus wrote: »

bookryanair.com redirects to ryanair.com - they are the same website.

In any case, we're focusing too much one one company. Whether Ryanair managed to get their website dirt cheap and that it works for them does not mean it is going to be true for everyone. Ryanair want to give the impression that they are cheap, not all companies do, in fact I'd say a select few do; so suggesting that all companies should base the estimates of web design costs on a company who by definition want to give off the cheapest image possible, is not right imho. Ryanair's website looks cheap and that's likely on purpose, that doesn't mean that in general I would recommend getting the cheapest website money can buy.

We've veered severely off topic. The main point was: how much should a website cost.

I dont think the issues discussed are off topic at all - its all relevant to the debate.
ryanair.com is the static site and bookryanair.com is the booking site - definitely 2 sites - they even have different addresses.

The issue of how much a site should cost is directly related to what you want the site to do for you.
I have spent €500 on a static site and spent €4,500 on a dynamic site. The €500 static site is far more successful than the dynamic site - sometimes its better not to have functionality on a site.
My dynamic site answers a potential customers questions and my conversion rate is much lower than the static site where the potential customer has to supply contact info to get a price. This allows me to get into salesman mode and get a sale over the line - this works for big ticket items.
I am looking to set up a new website at the moment, in an industry thats new to me. I need the site to be dynamic so that the customer gets everything they need to make a purchase without human intervention - but this is a low margin product line that depends on volume to make money.
So, for me the answer is very much dependant on what you need the site to do. For a static site I think €500 is about right

SolarNexus

Its clearly the same site for me. Like I said, one redirects you to the other.

I do agree however that there is a huge difference between a static site and a dynamic one. For most small businesses a static site will be grand and yes you could easily get a good one for around 500 Euro.

But this all comes down to what you need or want from your site.

elmine

Build from Blogspot...

you need cost not more $35

tomED

2xcn5k7ptj89e3 wrote: »

The debate is about web design - right? The design of ryanair.com has nothing to do with the booking site which is bookryanair.com

That's not an accurate statement at all. Of course the design of ryanair.com has something to do with the booking engine. For example, the data of the actual flight being booked needs to be shared between the two.

2xcn5k7ptj89e3 wrote: »

Ryanair spend serious money on their booking site with duplicate servers in Europe, America and Asia.

For load balancing purposes and security issues most likely and not because the sites are different.

2xcn5k7ptj89e3 wrote: »

They have one of the worlds busiest commercial websites and it crashes due traffic volumes rather than it being a cheap & nasty site!

That's hugely debatable. Yes it's clearly a busy website, but there are things that a professional company would do to improve the sites performance and overall appearance to make it faster, more user friendly and more appealing.

glic71rods46t0

tomED wrote: »

That's not an accurate statement at all. Of course the design of ryanair.com has something to do with the booking engine. For example, the data of the actual flight being booked needs to be shared between the two.



For load balancing purposes and security issues most likely and not because the sites are different.



That's hugely debatable. Yes it's clearly a busy website, but there are things that a professional company would do to improve the sites performance and overall appearance to make it faster, more user friendly and more appealing.

the ryanair.com site is static - all the dynamic stuff is done on bookryanair.com so the performance of the booking site has nothing to do with the static site - not really sure why we're splitting hairs on this issue.

I mentioned the multiple server hostings to dispel the myth that ryanair doesnt spend money on their online presence. The static site looks cheap & nasty - no question BUT they spend massive money on the booking site to handle the level of traffic it has to deal with
Simply put, there are 2 sites:
1. ryanair.com - cheap & nasty looking static site
2. bookryanair.com - hugely expensive dynamic site with multiple servers hosted throughout the world.

The booking site handles 70 million bookings per annum and probably several hundred million enquiries per annum - personally I doubt too many people are qualified to comment on their back office design and performance - they are in another league altogether.

tomED

2xcn5k7ptj89e3 wrote: »

the ryanair.com site is static - all the dynamic stuff is done on bookryanair.com so the performance of the booking site has nothing to do with the static site - not really sure why we're splitting hairs on this issue.

There is no hair-splitting - Your statement wasn't accurate.

What makes you think the Ryanair.com is static?

There is actually quite a lot of dynamic stuff on the main Ryanair site.

glic71rods46t0

tomED wrote: »

There is no hair-splitting - Your statement wasn't accurate.

What makes you think the Ryanair.com is static?

There is actually quite a lot of dynamic stuff on the main Ryanair site.

All I see are links to other dynamic sites - car hire, insurance etc. What dynamic stuff are you seeing on ryanair.com?

tomED

2xcn5k7ptj89e3 wrote: »

All I see are links to other dynamic sites - car hire, insurance etc. What dynamic stuff are you seeing on ryanair.com?

Well the most obvious one is the search.

But simply because the amount of offers they have on at anyone time plus their url naming conventions, I would assume that they have some sort of CMS in the background managing the content.

Things like the news, notices, special offers, airports are most likely database driven.

glic71rods46t0

tomED wrote: »

Well the most obvious one is the search.

But simply because the amount of offers they have on at anyone time plus their url naming conventions, I would assume that they have some sort of CMS in the background managing the content.

Things like the news, notices, special offers, airports are most likely database driven.

Search is all bookryanair.com
Nothing else you've mentioned is dynamic. Not a very convincing reply from someone so quick to challenge the accuracy of my posts:rolleyes:.

tomED

2xcn5k7ptj89e3 wrote: »

Search is all bookryanair.com

God is in the detail my son...

You seem to be referring to the flight search, I'm referring to the site search... e.g. http://www.ryanair.com/ie/questions/search?q=tips

If you delve deeper into that url structure, you will see that all the pages within tend to have a naming convention such as /questions/name-of-faq-page-title

The rest of the site pretty much takes this structure, which leads to a fairly structured looking naming convention, most likely managed by software somewhere in the background.

Additionally, the links to some of the CSS files seem to be using some soft of hashed identifier, quite possibly the session. If you visit from a different computer, you will notice these links are different - again suggesting the page is dynamically created.

2xcn5k7ptj89e3 wrote: »

Nothing else you've mentioned is dynamic. Not a very convincing reply from someone so quick to challenge the accuracy of my posts:rolleyes:.

Ok so with what I've demonstrated, you are basing your opinon on what exactly?

glic71rods46t0

tomED wrote: »

God is in the detail my son...

You seem to be referring to the flight search, I'm referring to the site search... e.g. http://www.ryanair.com/ie/questions/search?q=tips

If you delve deeper into that url structure, you will see that all the pages within tend to have a naming convention such as /questions/name-of-faq-page-title

The rest of the site pretty much takes this structure, which leads to a fairly structured looking naming convention, most likely managed by software somewhere in the background.

Additionally, the links to some of the CSS files seem to be using some soft of hashed identifier, quite possibly the session. If you visit from a different computer, you will notice these links are different - again suggesting the page is dynamically created.



Ok so with what I've demonstrated, you are basing your opinon on what exactly?

My definition of dynamic and static is, evidently, different to yours.
On the ryanair.com site the information is STATIC - it doesnt change depending on user input.
On the dynamic sites which you are brought to for bookings, car hire etc etc you get realtime dynamic information based on your inputs.
So bookryanair.com gives realtime information because its communicating withe their actual reservation system. If u look for a seat for a particular flight the availability and price changes in realtime - DYNAMIC

Hope this helps;)

tomED

2xcn5k7ptj89e3 wrote: »

My definition of dynamic and static is, evidently, different to yours.

Ok well I live in the real world, so I don't use my own definitions of the difference between static and dynamic pages. I use the factual definitions.

2xcn5k7ptj89e3 wrote: »

On the ryanair.com site the information is STATIC - it doesnt change depending on user input.

Which is why I gave you one simple example of one area of the site that I can categorically say is dynamic:

http://www.ryanair.com/en/questions/search?q=ash

Ash (or tips in my last example) is the search term used in the above search. If you were to change this, you will see that the page is dynamically generated.

Another example of a page that is 100% dynamically generated is:
http://www.ryanair.com/en/flight-info

And just to explain further why I'm convinced the rest of the site is dynamic. If you perform a search on the above page, you will see the URL changes to the flight number you've searched for.

E.g. http://www.ryanair.com/en/flight-info/153

So in both those examples, you can see that the pages are dynamically generated based on User Input.

That URL convention is being used througout the site - which means they are most likely using mod_rewrite to rewrite their URLs (site is on apache 2.2)

2xcn5k7ptj89e3 wrote: »

On the dynamic sites which you are brought to for bookings, car hire etc etc you get realtime dynamic information based on your inputs.

Which is what happens in the example I gave you originally and the examples above.

2xcn5k7ptj89e3 wrote: »

So bookryanair.com gives realtime information because its communicating withe their actual reservation system. If u look for a seat for a particular flight the availability and price changes in realtime - DYNAMIC

Hope this helps;)

Well as you can see, I've given you one new example above of where the information is realtime.

But there's a massive difference between the definition of Dynamic and Realtime. They are not the same thing.

Hope this helps

Japer

tomED wrote: »

Yes it's clearly a busy website,.

Ryanair is the worlds largest airline and it gets most of its bookings through the internet, so that I would imagine is the understatement of the century "Yes it's clearly a busy website" lol. I would say many a person setting up a business or website in Ireland now would love to have a ten-thousanth of the business / turnover the ryanair website generates.

tomED wrote: »

but there are things that a professional company would do .

Are you saying Ryanair is not a professional company ?
God, they are arguably Ireland most successful business. They are the largest airline in the world now....having started off from humble beginnings only a few decades ago. It is the only Irish brand name ( after perhaps "Guinness" ) which is recognisible in far flung countries.
It is still making large profits, unlike most Irish businesses. It has not seen a decimation in its share price, unlike so many companies on the Irish stock exchange. I would say its at least a very professional and competitive company, in that it has taken so much market share in a very competitive industry from other airlines, themselves quite professional I think you would agree.

tomED wrote: »

to improve the sites performance and overall appearance to make it faster, more user friendly and more appealing.

Its probably the most successful website in Europe. Michael O'Leary got a couple of students to design his website once, I dunno if he got professional help to update it since. But one thing for sure, I am sure he shopped around and did not pay over the odds. And if he was setting up a website for a small business, he would not spend a few grand when 500 would do. .....

tomED

Japer wrote: »

Ryanair is the worlds largest airline and it gets most of its bookings through the internet, so that I would imagine is the understatement of the century "Yes it's clearly a busy website" lol.

How exactly is that an understatement?

It's a busy website and far from the busiest website on the web.

Japer wrote: »

I would say many a person setting up a business or website in Ireland now would love to have a ten-thousanth of the business / turnover the ryanair website generates.

I'm sure they would. I think you're missing the point though. Most companies set up websites to promote their business and to use it as a marketing tool.

Ryanair used the opposite approach. They set up a website and marketed the website. This in turn has helped them lower the costs of running their business, which lead to them being able to make more profit.

Japer wrote: »

Are you saying Ryanair is not a professional company ?
God, they are arguably Ireland most successful business.

Hmmm, where exactly did I say that? You've taken that completely out of context.

I've stated that a professional company, clearly in reference to web design companies, would do many things to improve the performance of the website.

Japer wrote: »

But one thing for sure, I am sure he shopped around and did not pay over the odds.

Yep, he did shop around and a student who offered to do the website for £20k got the job.

Considering the other quotes he got were in the region of £3.5 million, I think it's fair to say that even Michael and his team didn't really understand the potential the web could bring his business.

At this stage I'm sure he's paid handsomely to get the websites backend architecture up to scratch and on top of that has most likely had to pay more than he would have originally.

So I'd say it's very debatable whether he paid over the odds or not.

Japer wrote: »

And if he was setting up a website for a small business, he would not spend a few grand when 500 would do. .....

Michael O'Leary being Michael O'Leary will always look for ways to cut costs. That's the type of business man he is.

However, the Ryanair website is such a bad example for anyone starting out. You can't compare a typical business to how Ryanair succeeded with theirs.

Ryanair had the budget, they had a bold CEO who was willing to take a risk on something that was ultimately going to change the way the airline industry worked and he was going to make damn sure it worked.

But this was all most likely after he saw what such a simple website could do for his business.

When he got the £20k proposal from John Beckett (the student in question) - he like everyone else who receives a quote from a web development company was comparing apples with oranges.

What John Beckett offered as a solution to Ryanair's web presence was quite clearly something that didn't forsee the potential of what Ryanair could do online. £20k back then wouldn't have ever been able to handle the traffic the site gets now.

So in hindsight, do I think Michael O'Leary would take this approach again? No, he would have paid a lot more as I'm sure he spent a lot of money patching things up as he went along the road to success.

Do you know

Japer

tomED wrote: »

So in hindsight, do I think Michael O'Leary would take this approach again?

You may not, but I do, , because I heard him on the radio give out about how some web design people charge ludicrous amounts of money for their time in making websites, and he got 2 students to do his. ....and he was so glad he took that "approach". Michael O'Leary is seldom wrong about business decisions he makes, I'll hand him that. He seemed to think most web designers charge rip-off prices. Mind you, I am sure he bargains hard with every supplier he deals with ; that is partly why probably he is one of Irelands most successful businessmen - if not the most successful.

tomED

Japer wrote: »

You may not, but I do, , because I heard him on the radio give out about how some web design people charge ludicrous amounts of money for their time in making websites, and he got 2 students to do his. ....and he was so glad he took that "approach".

Oh for God sake, are you serious??

This is Michael O'Leary's style - there are hundreds of thousands of discussions about the design of his website on the web, he just adds fuel to the fire, like he does with every other controversial topic on Ryanair.

Surely you are not that naive?

Japer wrote: »

Michael O'Leary is seldom wrong about business decisions he makes, I'll hand him that.

Agreed, when he makes a good decision he shouts from the rooftops. When he sees an opportunity to show how clever he is, he shouts louder.

But when he does make mistakes, he rarely admits them.

Like last years decision to buy oil up front - it cost the company dearly, yet he tried to play it down as much as he could.

Michael O'Leary is a PR genius, someone who I have total respect for.

Japer wrote: »

He seemed to think most web designers charge rip-off prices.

And how many websites has he actually been involved in developing? He's hardly an authority in the web design industry.

Japer wrote: »

Mind you, I am sure he bargains hard with every supplier he deals with ; that is partly why probably he is one of Irelands most successful businessmen - if not the most successful.

I doubt he bargains that much with the company who keeps his website online to be honest... It's too important to his business.

Japer

tomED wrote: »

And how many websites has he actually been involved in developing? He's hardly an authority in the web design industry.

He went against the advice of some people in the "web design industry", whom he said wanted to charge him a fortune. He got two students to design his website in their spare time, for a fraction of what many in the "web design industry " wanted to charge, and he has ended up with arguably the most successful website in Ireland. Win win win all round....for Ryanair itself (which has become the largest airline in the world ), for its customers, and for its shareholders.

Back to the real world, I believe some firms in India are doing excellent websites for some businesses in Ireland now, for a fraction of the cost of what the Irish "web design industry" charges. May be worth looking in to.

tomED

Japer wrote: »

he has ended up with arguably the most successful website in Ireland.

Again totally missing the point.

The way the website was designed didn't make the website successful, it was how it was marketed that made it a success.

Japer wrote: »

Back to the real world, I believe some firms in India are doing excellent websites for some businesses in Ireland now, for a fraction of the cost of what the Irish "web design industry" charges. May be worth looking in to.

I don't know if you have ever attempted to outsource before?

In my experience, the quality just isn't up to the same level as those developed here in Ireland. Also, if you don't know anything about web design, web security or basic website infrastructure, you're likely to be left with a pretty shoddy website.

There are of course a few exceptions to the rule, but they generally charge a lot more than their competitors.

So if anyone plans to outsource, make sure you fully understand what you are getting yourself in for.

tomED

Japer wrote: »

He got two students to design his website in their spare time

Oh and on that point, the student(s) actually had a company at this stage, so he hired a company rather than just two part time students and paid them £20k !!!

Here's John's story here:
http://www.studententerprise.ie/john-beckett.html