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Trade Unions

  • 25-11-2010 4:53pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭


    Most views on the Unions expressed on Boards seem to be negative.
    Why do so many dislike the Unions?


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    Most views on the Unions expressed on Boards seem to be negative.
    Why do so many dislike the Unions?

    For starters,

    1) Outdated work practices in the public sector as well as some private sector companies.
    2) Complete lack of realisation about the financial state of the country.
    3) They prefer to protect their own members interests first before the national interest eg public sector is a prime example.
    4) Hypocrisy of leading union leaders like McLoone, Begg and O'Connor, they like to rant about bankers corruption and accountability but they should take a hard look at themselves before pontificating about the banks.

    Thats just some examples for now, plenty more to come.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,116 ✭✭✭RDM_83 again


    I don;t really think the politics forum is really that representative of the general public views (not saying this is a bad thing now)
    But sometimes it seems every 3rd post is from a libertarian stand point and i think most people in the street would be hard pressed to even tell you properly what a libertarian is.

    my 2 cents on the question its because certain unions do a very good job for some of their members eg the teachers unions, extremely well paid and protected permanent generally older teachers working relatively short hours with lots of additional benefits attract the ire of those in the private sector, and also a level of discontent from those younger members who they don't fight as hard for who're in temporary contract and often short hours.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Not my entire list but another point.

    In a word partnership. Which I understood at it's origins would mean something else that it did ultimately. It meant that the average private sector worker got little from it but a massive national debt.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 270 ✭✭GarlicBread


    Most views on the Unions expressed on Boards seem to be negative.
    Why do so many dislike the Unions?

    On boards its mostly just employer/government propaganda.

    In general its the capitalist classes who cant capitalize efficiently enough because unions are in the way.

    Comes to a left / right, poor / rich arguement when you boil it down.

    Unions are also a second layer of democracy when the first layer fails, as we will see next sat.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭Revolution9


    Is it fair to say right wing politics and the unions never mix well?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Probably because most people recognise that unions certainly have their place, but in the last few years they have way over-stepped the mark and operated as if they have a large say in the running of the country.Unfortunately the Government have let them have a say. And ultimately, a union will only protect it's members regardless of what else that might affect.Therefore they have not been a force for good, rather a force for greed over the last number of years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,262 ✭✭✭Buford T Justice


    Personally, its because they are self serving with no thought of the consequences.

    The ability to hold the country to ransom if their members interests are in any way threatened.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 90 ✭✭CrankyCod


    It amazes me how many people criticize union members for achieving better pay and conditions; that's what unions are for, they are not a proxy government.

    Some people in the private sector rant about public sector workers in secure well-paid jobs, because they themselves are too competitive and individualistic to stick together and fight bad employers. If we had had more solidarity in recent years we wouldnt be up to our necks in sh*t.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    Unions were supposed to protect workers rights to the overall benefit of society. The benefit to society has been eroded by their recent behaviour.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭Revolution9


    dan_d wrote: »
    Probably because most people recognise that unions certainly have their place, but in the last few years they have way over-stepped the mark and operated as if they have a large say in the running of the country.Unfortunately the Government have let them have a say. And ultimately, a union will only protect it's members regardless of what else that might affect.Therefore they have not been a force for good, rather a force for greed over the last number of years.

    I don't mean to come off like I'm interrogating you, these are honest questions, but how have they over-stepped the mark? And why shouldn't they have a large say in the running of the country considering the amount of people they represent?

    And if Labour hold the majority in a coalition government they surely will have an even bigger say?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,942 ✭✭✭20Cent


    The irony of course is that it will be the unions who stand up to this gov and have the best chance of toppling them.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,262 ✭✭✭Buford T Justice



    And if Labour hold the majority in a coalition government they surely will have an even bigger say?

    Not likely though.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,743 ✭✭✭Revolution9


    Not likely though.

    Ok, but even if they are the junior partner in a coalition the Unions will hold more influence with them in government, correct?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    Unions used to be principled until they got prosperous and now they are neither.

    see this thread for one union definition of poverty
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=2056100052
    37k starting salary!

    I've been involved with unions over two decades and as far as I can see they completely lost their way ten years ago. Then they became a pay before labour in their thinking.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    On boards its mostly just employer/government propaganda.

    In general its the capitalist classes who cant capitalize efficiently enough because unions are in the way.

    Comes to a left / right, poor / rich arguement when you boil it down.

    Unions are also a second layer of democracy when the first layer fails, as we will see next sat.

    Unions are also a second layer of democracy when the first layer fails, as we will see next sat.

    now i know we really are in the sh;;;;t !


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    On boards its mostly just employer/government propaganda.

    Oh please. Yes there are plenty of employers on here (including myself). The same employers who will help us get out of this mess by creating jobs. And the government propaganda suggestion is utter rubbish.
    In general its the capitalist classes who cant capitalize efficiently enough because unions are in the way.

    hahaha. The unions are in the way of us having a decent country. They had their fat faces in the trough and helped us all get a load of debt. Now they are on the streets as their undeserved privileged position is under threat.
    Comes to a left / right, poor / rich arguement when you boil it down.

    Comes down to right and wrong for me.
    Unions are also a second layer of democracy when the first layer fails, as we will see next sat.

    Yes it's so democratic for an unelected section of our society to screw over the rest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    The Unions are a self-enriching parasite that are not aware of what is going on outside their bubble.

    They are insidiously co-opting those on welfare into their ponzi scheme and the welfare recipients are unaware of how the policies of The Unions are actually going to rape them in the long run.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,458 ✭✭✭✭gandalf


    20Cent wrote: »
    The irony of course is that it will be the unions who stand up to this gov and have the best chance of toppling them.

    I thought it was the Greens announcing that they wanted a General Election in the New Year that had done that. Maybe John Gormley is going to pull a Scooby Doo moment and pull off a rubber mask and revel his is really Jack O'Connor!!!

    My dislike of Unions stems initially from personal experiences from working in a company where a union came in and removed any incentive for staff who were willing to do extra work overnight and from dealing with unions from a commercial standpoint.

    It also stems from seeing what the Public Service has been transformed into during the whole partnership process which the Unions have been an integral part of.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 90 ✭✭CrankyCod


    k_mac wrote: »
    Unions were supposed to protect workers rights to the overall benefit of society. The benefit to society has been eroded by their recent behaviour.

    For a brief 5 years trade unions had some influence in Ireland, and used their bargaining power to get better pay and conditions for their members; now those gains are being clawed back, fast.
    All the millions made by landowners, bankers and developers are beyond reach, and we'll be in debt forever to pay off the bond holders.

    Do you seriously think that the unions did the most damage to society?

    The anti-union stuff on here is just off-the-peg thatcherite claptrap that was worn out 20 years ago.

    Lets all go back to 1913 shall we?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,558 ✭✭✭kaiser sauze


    CrankyCod wrote: »
    All the millions made by landowners, bankers and developers are beyond reach, and we'll be in debt forever to pay off the bond holders.

    Incorrect. Most of those landowners are now bankrupt as they were not professional investors and got caught up in property like "Jim" down the road did.
    CrankyCod wrote: »
    Do you seriously think that the unions did the most damage to society?

    Noone is saying that, stop misrepresenting.

    The were a big contributor to the mess and they are now a cancer on a flatlining patient.
    CrankyCod wrote: »
    The anti-union stuff on here is just off-the-peg thatcherite claptrap that was worn out 20 years ago.

    Lets all go back to 1913 shall we?

    I would love a Thatcherite attitude to the likes of Begg and O'Connor, who have no mandate to pontificate to the country, and its politicians, on behalf of their membership.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 586 ✭✭✭jonnybravo


    My dislike of unions is based on the following;

    1) They protect under performing workers e.g. how many terrible teachers can people think of that keep doing their jobs with no consequence of their poor performance?
    2) They argue about protecting low cost workers (which is correct) but they also protect the public service as a whole, including many over paid employees & out dated work practices.
    3) They partook in the massive ramping up of wages in the good times which is one of several factors that caused our current bad situation.
    4) Their involvement in FAS
    5) Their hindering the improvement of the economy at the moment by being forced into modern work practices and removing old pay agreements that are hindering new employment.
    6) I don't like the fact that they all have beards - its just freaky - :eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    People are anti-union until they need one ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 270 ✭✭GarlicBread


    meglome wrote: »
    Yes it's so democratic for an unelected section of our society to screw over the rest.

    ICTU represents 600,000 people.

    Id like to see a political party get that amount of votes in the next GE.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    ICTU represents 600,000 people.

    Id like to see a political party get that amount of votes in the next GE.

    Well the best figures I can find say 244,000 and falling. So my point stands.

    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/shane-ross/shane-ross-exodus-of-members-from-siptu-as-nearly-one-lost-every-hour-2209771.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 270 ✭✭GarlicBread


    meglome wrote: »

    Thats Siptu, not Ictu.

    Ictu is the umbrella Union, Siptu is the largest Union within the group.

    You have no point at all.

    Come to the demo tommorow and ill forgive you for your ignorance :D.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Thats Siptu, not Ictu.

    Ictu is the umbrella Union, Siptu is the largest Union within the group.

    You have no point at all.

    Come to the demo tommorow and ill forgive you for your ignorance :D.

    Yes indeed. It's times like this I wish I drank coffee for 6am posts.

    Still my point stands, the Irish workforce is 2,155,200. So we still have a privileged minority looking to insulate themselves from the reality of the majority. Didn't we have an ascendancy class like that before?

    I really really couldn't listen to union people spouting their crap. It'll be no cuts, tax the rich... blah blah blah.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,262 ✭✭✭Buford T Justice


    I also think that they have reduced our government to a quivering wreck.

    The way I see it, Public sector pay needs to be cut in line with everyone elses. after all, they have imposed a 12% pay cut on the minimum wage.

    The Croke Park agreement needs to be torn up.

    In the national interest, these things need to be done. Now, because the Government are a bunch of muppets at a show, and the likes of David Begg and his ilk are watching, they won't do it, because the unions will be up in arms over it and will cause mass strikes and will persist until the unions get what the want. And when all this happens, its the public that suffer.

    Hence my dislike for the unions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭timetogo


    From my experience.

    I'm working in a company spread over a few sites in Europe. The company treats us well and most of us in the various offices are happy enough. The company hasn't been making a profit for about 3 years.

    Our French office are unionised and really it's like dealing with kids. They won't do something unless agreed in advance. While everybody else is hoping the company doesn't go bust and doing extra hours and being flexible(we're just starting to break even now so we're probably OK) the French guys have been on strike a few times over the last 3 years. They even had an issue with bonuses not being given, this was while the company was making people redundant and cutting back our pay. Our management is pretty OK, if we're flexible, they're flexible back so it's not like they're abusing us. I've way more examples than that but I don't want to type something that identifies me or the company. They're flexible but they're not idiots. :D

    My dad has worked in a unionised Irish company for pretty much all of his life. I can see how he and his peers milk their system. A simple example (one of many) is a couple of years ago he was asking my mam how many UCLs he had left to take that year. When I asked what UCL was he said uncertified leave. In his job they all take all their UCLs. It's part of their holidays.

    I see the point of unions but after working for about 18 years now in various companies I seem to always have had employers that have been decent. If you work hard they reward you and usually there's a HR department if you have any issues you need help with.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,988 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    CrankyCod wrote: »
    Some people in the private sector rant about public sector workers in secure well-paid jobs, because they themselves are too competitive and individualistic to stick together and fight bad employers. If we had had more solidarity in recent years we wouldnt be up to our necks in sh*t.

    Except that it's not just to fight bad employers. It's also to fight against and ultimately to the detriment of other individuals. Except that this myopia doesn't allow either unions or their members to see past their own often greedy agenda.

    Its all me-me-me in their eyes but they try pass it off as though they are fighting for the good of society.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭COYW


    jonnybravo wrote: »
    My dislike of unions is based on the following;

    1) They protect under performing workers e.g. how many terrible teachers can people think of that keep doing their jobs with no consequence of their poor performance?

    I have absolutely no time for them. I have taken glory in passing their pickets before and relish doing so again soon. Every unionised company that I have ever dealt with seems to promote union based cronyism ahead of ability. Their ideals promote utter mediocrity in the work place.

    Also, pro-union people go on about private sector people being 'me-me-me' all the time. I have lost count of the number of times that public sector workers have refused to stay back for 10 or 15 mins when I dealt with them because it's not in their terms of work. Getting a meeting with them after 4.00pm, NOT a chance.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭Spacedog


    As a business owner I hate unions because:

    -they inhibit the free market, which is my God and religion and can do no wrong
    -they make poor people think they have power, which they obviously dont
    -they take money earned by the businesses i set up and walk away from, and put it in the pockets of the people I trust to run them for me, grrrrrr
    -they force me to treat women and brown people equally, as a racist, sexist, hate filled shell of a man who feels superior to others, i feel it's my right to descriminate
    -they tricked the banks into wasting loads of money... no wait that was us... nevermind...
    -they are smelly pinkos and have stupid faces.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,084 ✭✭✭✭neris


    jonnybravo wrote: »
    6) I don't like the fact that they all have beards - its just freaky - :eek:

    :D:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    neris wrote: »
    :D:D
    Yet it's the cleanly shaven cronies in FF that have something to hide.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    On boards its mostly just employer/government propaganda.

    Oh so true, just look around at how pro-FF the entire forum is.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,957 ✭✭✭The Volt


    amacachi wrote: »
    Oh so true, just look around at how pro-FF the entire forum is.
    Evidently, being anti-FF doesn't mean being pro-union so that's a moot point.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 171 ✭✭Ray Burkes Pension


    Its pretty simple. The Union leaders who on on 100+k salaries were swilling from the same trough as the property developers and the ministers.

    Look at David O'Begg picking up 45k a year as a director of Aer Lingus.


    And that's without looking at the spiralling out of control wages of public sector workers, that lead to huge house prices and mortgages all over the country.


    And at the moment they are just another group of feckers trying to protect their own self interest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Enough with the silly stuff...

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    CrankyCod wrote: »
    Some people in the private sector rant about public sector workers in secure well-paid jobs, because they themselves are too competitive and individualistic to stick together and fight bad employers.

    Or, maybe it's because they realise that if they all fought their 'bad' employer, the employer would go out of business and they'd be out of a job!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    I don't mean to come off like I'm interrogating you, these are honest questions, but how have they over-stepped the mark? And why shouldn't they have a large say in the running of the country considering the amount of people they represent?

    And if Labour hold the majority in a coalition government they surely will have an even bigger say?

    Just saw your question there - what I mean is that Unions exist to prevent the rights of their workers, to ensure they are being paid a fair wage and not being taken advantage of in terms of working hours and conditions. In recent years, while there were still a small percentage of people operating under these conditions, the majority of workers were paid a fair wage, and more, and their working conditions were good (and I worked on building sites, so I saw that first hand).
    Yet they kept demanding more and more and more money, and became these inflexible, rigid organisations, whose members are encouraged to do absolutely nothing unless agreed in advance - or rather, negotiated in advance - with the union.There's no encouragement to many members to take initiative, to be flexible, nothing.They have created an idea that everybody is entitled to was much as possible, but you don't have to take on any responsibility (extra or otherwise) to go with this entitlement....you're just entitled because you're a union member.

    As for the Labour comments - I didn't actually say anything about Labour but I agree with what you're saying on that.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    k_mac wrote: »
    Unions were supposed to protect workers rights to the overall benefit of society. The benefit to society has been eroded by their recent behaviour.

    so true, the country is really broke and David Begg and Jack O Connor with their €125k+ pay are holding the country to ransom. Don't they realise the PS are some of the best paid in Europe and we've one of the smallest populations.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 127 ✭✭andrew cross


    :Di have been in a trade union all my working life, i have seen the union support workers who have been bullied, unsafe work practise, i don't agree with union bosses getting big wages, the lose all credibility, :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 90 ✭✭CrankyCod


    Or, maybe it's because they realise that if they all fought their 'bad' employer, the employer would go out of business and they'd be out of a job!

    Fighting for a decent wage and conditions doensnt put anyone out of business, unless the business is marginal and not viable anyway. Unless you think that all employers pay their workers as much as they possibly can?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 827 ✭✭✭thebaldsoprano


    CrankyCod wrote: »
    Fighting for a decent wage and conditions doensnt put anyone out of business, unless the business is marginal and not viable anyway. Unless you think that all employers pay their workers as much as they possibly can?

    That very much depends on how you define 'decent' though :)

    On viability, we'll assume for the moment that for a business to be viable it has to make more money than it spends. But what happens if it sells enough to cover costs, but the customers are slow in paying? The company could, in normal circumstances get a loan or an overdraft from their bank but that isn't an option in the current environment. Then we have a perfectly viable business being forced to shut down! A company teetering on the edge in this manner would be pushed over it by staff demanding higher wages. Also, now that they've shut down their suppliers will be left out of pocket which will put more businesses, and jobs, under threat. Many small/medium businesses are finding themselves in this situation.

    Also, a company's viability may be simply be affected by current market conditions. It might be making plenty of sales, just not as many as before. If the company keeps paying the same number of staff the same amount it makes a loss, if it reduces this it makes a profit. So, to remain viable it has to either let people go, or reduce their wages. But we couldn't say the company isn't viable because it has to do this. Again, if all the employees demand that things be kept as they were, the company will shut down.

    If a company's viability is being affected in either of these ways, it usually doesn't have the option to increase the amount its customers are paying for its service, which is exactly the approach being taken by the public sector and large financial sector companies. Not only that, their customers (otherwise known as taxpayers) are having to borrow very large amounts to pay for them. That is what makes a company, or public sector body unviable.

    Finally, obviously not all companies are paying staff as much as possible, but many small/medium sized companies are paying as many staff as much as they can! They're in survival mode and while it's less than ideal it sure beats the dole.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    And why shouldn't they have a large say in the running of the country considering the amount of people they represent?

    Really, really they shouldn't. Listened to, sure, but a say in how the country is run? Dear God no. They represent a minority of workers and seek to bring benefits to that minority. It's literally tyranny of the minority with how they do things.

    Should IBEC have a large say in the running of the country? After all, they provide jobs and livings for even more people than ICTU represents! I'd say no, since the country shouldn't just be run to satisfy the whims of business but the same has to apply to the unions.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    :Di have been in a trade union all my working life, i have seen the union support workers who have been bullied, unsafe work practise

    And that is exactly why we need unions. Workers have every right to representation etc. The thing is these mega unions command far too much power, they are practically a monopoly in many respects. Small unions providing representation and support to workers are a good thing. Huge mega unions merely distort the market and provide an unfair benefit to workers within the unionised system versus those outside of it. Just look at the mess the public service is if you want to see what damage a union can do (bank leave still being present for some workers even after they've been paid electronically for many years and similar silliness!).


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Exactly my point. They have their place, but they have stepped far, far outside it in the last number of years.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,132 ✭✭✭Killer Pigeon


    For starters,

    1) Outdated work practices in the public sector as well as some private sector companies.
    2) Complete lack of realisation about the financial state of the country.
    3) They prefer to protect their own members interests first before the national interest eg public sector is a prime example.
    4) Hypocrisy of leading union leaders like McLoone, Begg and O'Connor, they like to rant about bankers corruption and accountability but they should take a hard look at themselves before pontificating about the banks.

    Thats just some examples for now, plenty more to come.

    Hello there, RIGHT-WING Dub.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,911 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Most views on the Unions expressed on Boards seem to be negative.
    Why do so many dislike the Unions?

    Because a disproportionately large number of posters here are right wing ideologues who have self inflated pompus egos and an inherent distaste of ordinary people. They are also socially inadequate hence the huge amount of time they spend debating on online forums when most normal people are out having a normal social life.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Because a disproportionately large number of posters here are right wing ideologues who have self inflated pompus egos and an inherent distaste of ordinary people. They are also socially inadequate hence the huge amount of time they spend debating on online forums when most normal people are out having a normal social life.

    Have a week off from the forum for such broadly aimed insults.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,588 ✭✭✭femur61


    Hello there, RIGHT-WING Dub.

    I'm not from Dublin and nor right wing but common sense prevails. If minimum wage went down and social welfare reduced literally everything else would follow. Restaurants overflowing with customers are offering two course meal for two for €30 0 €35. Doesn't this highlight that is people have their finances curtailed in one area everything else will follow.


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