Public service pension cuts

joolsveer

The government's four year plan outlines the proposal to reduce pensions above €12,000. Is it fair that such a low rate of pension should be cut? Do you think that this cut will generate protests on the streets similar to the grey demonstrations of a couple of years ago?

Dannyboy83

Are they entitled to the state pension and the PS pension at the same time?

johnboy_123

I think everything needs to be cut...the only thing left is the CPA...someone get the scissors

joolsveer

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Are they entitled to the state pension and the PS pension at the same time?

The state pension is only paid to new entrants to the civil service and a deduction is made from the public service pension.

Dannyboy83

I heard on NewsTalk this morning that the removal of tax reliefs on the private pensions is going to lead to large job losses.

Impression I got was that it was a self defeating measure.
i.e. the costs generated would outweigh any potential saving

Sher anyway, they still didn't reform spending, so it's all irrelevant.

Dannyboy83

joolsveer wrote: »

The state pension is only paid to new entrants to the civil service and a deduction is made from the public service pension.

So what is the minimum you could be coming out with ?

A relative of mine has a larger income from his PS pension than I have from my salary. I don't begrudge my relative, but it's more evidence of our broken system really.

westtip

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

So what is the minimum you could be coming out with ?

A relative of mine has a larger income from his PS pension than I have from my salary. I don't begrudge my relative, but it's more evidence of our broken system really.

When you consider the levels of pensions of retired Garda and Teachers it's not difficult to believe what you say, in fact I am sure many of us working woudl be more than happy to "survive" on a public sector pension of a teacher or a Garda, they have been cut by not by enough.

This whole thing is so anti the people in the middle - the muddling classes in their 30s and 40s, working in the private sector or self employed and living from hadn to mouth this is when outgoings are at your greatest and these are the people who are generating the wealth for children to be educated and the aged to sit and watch Sky TV - these are the people who have to save for kids college fees, for their pensions, make ends meet, pay the mortgage etc listen to the demands of children and what they want for Christmas. These are the people being screwed and do you know what they are fed up.

The "jagger generation" have got off lightly. If your mortgage is paid off, your TV Licence is paid, your phone bill paid, a heating allowance given, jumping on and off trains and buses free of charge, and with very generous tax allowances on income (which are to go and not before time) I actually get fed up with the whingeing old age lobby. Sure there are some pensioners just getting by - but my god do this lot whinge or what.

Pensioners have never had it so good - so cough up you old codgers and take some pain like the rest of us.

joolsveer

westtip wrote: »

............................

This whole thing is so anti the people in the middle - the muddling classes in their 30s and 40s, working in the private sector or self employed and living from hadn to mouth this is when outgoings are at your greatest and these are the people who are generating the wealth for children to be educated and the aged to sit and watch Sky TV - these are the people who have to save for kids college fees, for their pensions, make ends meet, pay the mortgage etc listen to the demands of children and what they want for Christmas. These are the people being screwed and do you know what they are fed up.

The "jagger generation" have got off lightly. If your mortgage is paid off, your TV Licence is paid, your phone bill paid, a heating allowance given, jumping on and off trains and buses free of charge, and with very generous tax allowances on income (which are to go and not before time) I actually get fed up with the whingeing old age lobby. Sure there are some pensioners just getting by - but my god do this lot whinge or what.

Pensioners have never had it so good - so cough up you old codgers and take some pain like the rest of us.

People who have reached pension age have already paid taxes through the nose and should not be penalised again surely. It is inequitable to be hit twice. What are the generous tax allowances on income?

Paulzx

westtip wrote: »

This whole thing is so anti the people in the middle - the muddling classes in their 30s and 40s, working in the private sector or self employed and living from hadn to mouth this is when outgoings are at your greatest and these are the people who are generating the wealth for children to be educated and the aged to sit and watch Sky TV - these are the people who have to save for kids college fees, for their pensions, make ends meet, pay the mortgage etc listen to the demands of children and what they want for Christmas. These are the people being screwed and do you know what they are fed up.



Pensioners have never had it so good - so cough up you old codgers and take some pain like the rest of us.

Existing pensioners have saved and scrimped over the years to do exactly what you are whinging about doing now

They've had to feed their kids, save for college, pensions, xmas etc.

They have made provision over their working lives and now benifet from that provision.

Nobody denies that some pensioners can easily afford some sacrifices but your post stinks of the whinging woe is me attitude that seems to prevail around every contribution you make to this forum.

westtip

joolsveer wrote: »

People who have reached pension age have already paid taxes through the nose and should not be penalised again surely. It is inequitable to be hit twice. What are the generous tax allowances on income?

Just because you have reached a certain age does not mean you should stop paying taxes - if your income justifies taxes then cough up - after all the aged are using the public transport services and health services more than anyone. They are not been hit twice. As for the attitude they have saved enough - au contraire, to have saved enough to have a pension pot some of the pensions enjoyed by the likes of Gards and teachers the savings they would have had to make would be far greater than what they did in contributions to superannuation payments. They have not saved enough to enjoy the pensions they have. As for the poster immediately above moaning about my contributions that in my view speak the truth (we are broke and we can't afford all this) then take a look at current account from which these PS pensions get paid. Its running on empty. And BTW many people agree with what I have written on this forum.

johnboy_123

westtip wrote: »

Just because you have reached a certain age does not mean you should stop paying taxes - if your income justifies taxes then cough up - after all the aged are using the public transport services and health services more than anyone. They are not been hit twice. As for the attitude they have saved enough - au contraire, to have saved enough to have a pension pot some of the pensions enjoyed by the likes of Gards and teachers the savings they would have had to make would be far greater than what they did in contributions to superannuation payments. They have not saved enough to enjoy the pensions they have. As for the poster immediately above moaning about my contributions that in my view speak the truth (we are broke and we can't afford all this) then take a look at current account from which these PS pensions get paid. Its running on empty. And BTW many people agree with what I have written on this forum.

This is the problem all people in society should be sharing the load here. Not just the lower class and the people paying tax. This budget is very unfair. Its no coincidence that the 2 groups not taken a hit the P.S and the OAPs are historically FF heads. My advice to anyone reading this is to vote FG as they have said they will tackle the public sector and the unions and any party willing to put this sector of society to the sword will get my vote

Paulzx

westtip wrote: »

. And BTW many people agree with what I have written on this forum.

And many disagree

NotInventedHere

johnboy_123 wrote: »

My advice to anyone reading this is to vote FG as they have said they will tackle the public sector and the unions and any party willing to put this sector of society to the sword will get my vote

I would never vote for those christian right wing bastards, also the candidate in my area seems no better than a County Councillor with her leaflets talking about planning approvals and community centres. Blah Blah Blah more of the same old parochial ****. In fact any politician that has been tainted by working in the current system can fcuk right off. I want a fresh start.

ardmacha

Its no coincidence that the 2 groups not taken a hit the P.S and the OAPs

Do these people not pay tax like everyone else? So they have taken the same hit as everyone else.

johnboy_123

ardmacha wrote: »

Do these people not pay tax like everyone else? So they have taken the same hit as everyone else.

Ardmacha yeah but the problem is that everyone else is taking a cut to protect there over inflated pensions and over inflated wages

swampgas

Paulzx wrote: »

Existing pensioners have saved and scrimped over the years to do exactly what you are whinging about doing now

They've had to feed their kids, save for college, pensions, xmas etc.

They have made provision over their working lives and now benifet from that provision.

Nobody denies that some pensioners can easily afford some sacrifices but your post stinks of the whinging woe is me attitude that seems to prevail around every contribution you make to this forum.

The whinging is coming from relatively well-off pensioners that don't want any drop in their own living standards, to which (naturally) they have become quite accustomed. The argument that somehow these generous pensions have been earned by paying tax over the years doesn't stand up.

IMO, the safety net for those least well off should be vigorously protected, but everyone else should accept that the pensions they feel so entitled to have to be paid for by everyone else in society, and must by necessity take a hit.

It's not like they won't be able to put food on the table.

gazzer

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Are they entitled to the state pension and the PS pension at the same time?

It would depend on when a person entered the PS. If somebody entered before 1995 and they retired on the top scale of the Clerical Officer payscale they would have a yearly pension of approx €13,500. That would be a PS pension. They would not be entitled to the state pension.

If the person entered the PS after 1995 they would more or less the same pension but it would be 50% PS and 50% State pension.

Paulzx

swampgas wrote: »

The whinging is coming from relatively well-off pensioners that don't want any drop in their own living standards, to which (naturally) they have become quite accustomed.

.

I have spoken to many pensioners who are quite happy to take a hit and make a contribution.

I have taken issue with a poster complaining about how he has to feed kids, pay college fees and all the other life costs associated with being in your 30's and 40's as if our existing pensioners have never had to do this also.

They also had these costs and expenses. It is not a modern day phenomenom.

swampgas

Paulzx wrote: »

I have spoken to many pensioners who are quite happy to take a hit and make a contribution.

I have taken issue with a poster complaining about how he has to feed kids, pay college fees and all the other life costs associated with being in your 30's and 40's as if our existing pensioners have never had to do this also.

They also had these costs and expenses. It is not a modern day phenomenom.

Have to agree with you on that one, Paulzx. I hadn't read the previous posts very closely.

As someone without children I sometimes get exasperated at how some parents seem to feel that all the costs of raising their kids should somehow fall to the state. But that's another story.

Regarding the cuts to come, the real pain we will feel is the one of re-adjustment to a lower standard of living. Once the adjustment has been made, we will get used to it and feel a lot happier. That's been my experience in the past, at any rate.

aliveandkicking

johnboy_123 wrote: »

Ardmacha yeah but the problem is that everyone else is taking a cut to protect there over inflated pensions and over inflated wages

At the higher end certainly there needs to be a cut but on the lower end (less than 40k) they've had enough cuts and tax incresases and anymore would see massive mortgage defaults and even further collapse in domestic demand i.e counter productive.

aliveandkicking

gazzer wrote: »

It would depend on when a person entered the PS. If somebody entered before 1995 and they retired on the top scale of the Clerical Officer payscale they would have a yearly pension of approx €13,500. That would be a PS pension. They would not be entitled to the state pension.

If the person entered the PS after 1995 they would more or less the same pension but it would be 50% PS and 50% State pension.

Nobody who entered the public service after 1995 would have retired on a fully pension yet (less than 15 years service) so if they have retired with that level of service their pensions would be quite measly.

johnboy_123

aliveandkicking wrote: »

At the higher end certainly there needs to be a cut but on the lower end (less than 40k) they've had enough cuts and tax incresases and anymore would see massive mortgage defaults and even further collapse in domestic demand i.e counter productive.

So why is the private sector which is already been cut by employers have to bear this pain.

westtip

swampgas wrote: »

Regarding the cuts to come, the real pain we will feel is the one of re-adjustment to a lower standard of living. Once the adjustment has been made, we will get used to it and feel a lot happier. That's been my experience in the past, at any rate.

This is about one of the most level headed comments I have read on this forum this week - managing expectations is very important - as is managing change. Not being able to afford two city breaks a year, a holiday abroad, having a little place out west, and eating out three times a week does not mean you are living a life of hardship. The country has lived beyond its means, and that position is unsustainable. Our expectations have got ludicrous and that is what much of this debate is about. Less consumption will probably do us all the world of good.

westtip

Paulzx wrote: »

I I have taken issue with a poster complaining about how he has to feed kids, pay college fees and all the other life costs associated with being in your 30's and 40's as if our existing pensioners have never had to do this also.

.

You are I think referring to the comments I made - I was not complaining how I have to feed the kids etc, I am not even in the bracket of people I was describing, you assumed I was talking about myself - I wasn't so please refrain from the school teacher attitude with comments like "I have taken issue with a poster". I have a great deal more sympathy for the muddling classes in their 30s and 40s than I do with the grey jagger generation, is actually my view. Please do not assume if a poster writes about a certain group of people that he/she belongs to that group. I feel very sorry for the Muddling generation - they have been dealth a much tougher set of cards than their parents.

The Muppet

westtip wrote: »

You are I think referring to the comments I made - I was not complaining how I have to feed the kids etc, I am not even in the bracket of people I was describing, you assumed I was talking about myself - I wasn't so please refrain from the school teacher attitude with comments like "I have taken issue with a poster". I have a great deal more sympathy for the muddling classes in their 30s and 40s than I do with the grey jagger generation, is actually my view. Please do not assume if a poster writes about a certain group of people that he/she belongs to that group. I feel very sorry for the Muddling generation - they have been dealth a much tougher set of cards than their parents.

Is it about time the Muddling Generation paid their way and stopped depending on their parents bailing them out. Why should the Older generation contribute more than they are already being asked to.

wellieboot

gazzer wrote: »

It would depend on when a person entered the PS. If somebody entered before 1995 and they retired on the top scale of the Clerical Officer payscale they would have a yearly pension of approx €13,500. That would be a PS pension. They would not be entitled to the state pension.

If the person entered the PS after 1995 they would more or less the same pension but it would be 50% PS and 50% State pension.

This is the irony of the situation. The person in the example above, if married, would be entitled to a non contributory State pension if they had no other means at around €116 per week at the minute. They would not be entitled to a contributory State pension as they paid Class B PRSI.

Someone who never worked or contributed is entitled to a non contributory State pension at €219 - single rate or €363 if married (i.e €18876 per annum).

So much for the great PS pensions

Dannyboy83

gazzer wrote: »

It would depend on when a person entered the PS. If somebody entered before 1995 and they retired on the top scale of the Clerical Officer payscale they would have a yearly pension of approx €13,500. That would be a PS pension. They would not be entitled to the state pension.

If the person entered the PS after 1995 they would more or less the same pension but it would be 50% PS and 50% State pension.

Ok, I don't see room for cuts in a person receiving €13,500.
I am referring to people who are making €32,000+

But I would like to point out that myself and my partner live on 10k each, and I work for a living, we do not receive any handouts of any type.
I had to give up smoking and all luxuries, we have adjusted to a very low standard of living.

My honest belief is that, until the pay apartheid is corrected, i.e. the overinflated pay of state sector employment and pensions and in particular correction of the public sector pyramid pay scheme, then neither the bond markets nor the dogs on the street are going to be conned into believing that Ireland has a future.

Ireland is going to continue to sink until someone grows a spine and slaughters the sacred cow, because the rest of us just cannot prop it up anymore and the world know that.

femur61

Bear in mind when they originally introduced the pension they never thought people would live as long as they have.

aliveandkicking

johnboy_123 wrote: »

So why is the private sector which is already been cut by employers have to bear this pain.

The public sector have been cut also by their employers i.e. the government at a rate of 14% and seen them have an increased workload (justifiably). Now all sectors (public and private) are been hit with tax increases. There is scope for pay reductions at the higher end of the public service but more cuts to lower earners would be counter productive to the wider economy as is cutting the minimum wage.

johnboy_123

aliveandkicking wrote: »

The public sector have been cut also by their employers i.e. the government at a rate of 14% and seen them have an increased workload (justifiably). Now all sectors (public and private) are been hit with tax increases. There is scope for pay reductions at the higher end of the public service but more cuts to lower earners would be counter productive to the wider economy as is cutting the minimum wage.

Once again this is really a reverse of one lot of the benchmarking and wow imagine having to make a contribution to your own fcuking penions..

aliveandkicking

johnboy_123 wrote: »

Once again this is really a reverse of one lot of the benchmarking and wow imagine having to make a contribution to your own fcuking penions..

Benchmarking gave a 9% increase. The cuts have taken 14% away. Public servants have also always made a 6.5% contribution to their pensions (known as superannuation). Maybe try to do some research first before being led up the anti public service path by the media propaganda over the last few years?

westtip

aliveandkicking wrote: »

The public sector have been cut also by their employers i.e. the government at a rate of 14% and seen them have an increased workload (justifiably). Now all sectors (public and private) are been hit with tax increases. There is scope for pay reductions at the higher end of the public service but more cuts to lower earners would be counter productive to the wider economy as is cutting the minimum wage.

So what is your definition of higher end? County Managers on 150K a year or primary shool teachers on 60k a year.

westtip

femur61 wrote: »

Bear in mind when they originally introduced the pension they never thought people would live as long as they have.

This is a very good and simple point. Gards and teachers taking early retirement in their late 50s (in the case of Garda early 50s or even late 40s), have potentially got as long to live drawing a pension equal to or greater than the time they worked. A whole rethink on pensions is needed - maybe no pensions should be paid until people are 67, with no early pension options, this really is part of the problem.

A teacher who retires after 40 years full service on a final salary of 80k, gets a pension of 40k per annum. If they retire at 60, and live for another 30 years herein lies the problem! It is simply not affordable for the state. Annuity rates are about 5% at the moment - to buy this pension on the open market - you woudl need to have a funded pension pot of 800,000. This is the fundamental problem. The Pension Timebomb, it goes beyond these shores - there are sovereing states all over the world which in ten years time are going to be struggling to pay the state old aged pension - the UK for one, and definitely Ireland. Never mind these over inflated public pensions. We had at least recognised this with the National Pension Reserve Fund - believe me if this gets poured into the black hole of AIB, BOI and Anglo etc - there will simply be no money to pay the pensions of those in their 30s, 40s and 50s now. At that stage, discussions about what is fair to be cut will be totally irrelevant.

Count Dooku

ardmacha wrote: »

Do these people not pay tax like everyone else? So they have taken the same hit as everyone else.

everybody who will retire from PS in next 20 years or already retired never paid it full ( I mean reduced PRSI for pre-95)

aliveandkicking

westtip wrote: »

So what is your definition of higher end? County Managers on 150K a year or primary shool teachers on 60k a year.

Both. 5% above 50k and at least 10% above 150k. Cutting anyone lower than 50k more than they already have been wouldn't be justified or productive.

Bullseye1

I was recently taking with a retired Co Co Engineer who is on a pension of Euro 44,000. No mortgage wife also has a pension (retired Doctor). Seems excessive.

westtip

aliveandkicking wrote: »

Both. 5% above 50k and at least 10% above 150k. Cutting anyone lower than 50k more than they already have been wouldn't be justified or productive.

Yes I agree the phase cutting is probably the best plan - I would however savage the top end.

Bullseye1 wrote: »

I was recently taking with a retired Co Co Engineer who is on a pension of Euro 44,000. No mortgage wife also has a pension (retired Doctor). Seems excessive.

It is indeed excessive. In fact it is pure fantasy land to even think it is sustainable. Also a good example of the crazy effect benchmarking had - with the increases it bought in it cranked up final salaries of relatively senior people and with the last year salary rule - the knock on effects for a generation where there, Bertie was a complete prat! and guess who did most of his "negotiations" ......... senior civil servants!!!!!! Sheer bloody madness!!!!

Drumpot

The Muppet wrote: »

Is it about time the Muddling Generation paid their way and stopped depending on their parents bailing them out. Why should the Older generation contribute more than they are already being asked to.

Dont ask the Pensioners to pay anymore so . . Just reverse the increases in their pensions that were provided during the bubble years, with taxes the government no longer gets.

The older people of this country worked for a pension and a Pension they should have. To presume that they should keep the increases that were supposed to be in line with inflation, cost of living and the success of the state, is like the attitudes of some public servants presuming that they "didnt cause this mess" therefore they shouldnt pay anything.

And as for the person that metioned people with children. In most cases, the children of today will be looking after the OAP's of tomorrow and as far as I can tell the state , overall, makes more out of most children then any of the welfare provided to parents to bring them up.

Not just that, the children who were unable to vote during the 00's actually are the only true section of society that can say they had no say in how our country was run or where we find ourselves now. The pensioners were happy to generally vote FF while the going was good.

I have nothing against Pensioners, I have a problem with sections of society trying to appeal to our good nature by crying foul of what has happened and claim poverty. I believe in protecting the vulnerable, not those looking to simply protect their lifestyle.

westtip

Drumpot wrote: »

I have nothing against Pensioners, I have a problem with sections of society trying to appeal to our good nature by crying foul of what has happened and claim poverty. I believe in protecting the vulnerable, not those looking to simply protect their lifestyle.

+1 well said sir.

Idbatterim

Could all benefits not be taxed the way income is?

Idbatterim

Not only do pensioners have their pensions, they probably also own property and have other assets and savings. AFAIC if they are relying solely on state or public service pensions, tough look if they have to take cuts.

Paulzx

Count Dooku wrote: »

everybody who will retire from PS in next 20 years or already retired never paid it full ( I mean reduced PRSI for pre-95)

That is incorrect information. Some pre 1995 ps employees have never made full contributions to their pensions. The system was different across different area of the public service.

As an example secondary school teachers and Firefighters have always made a 6.5% superannuation contributions even those on pre 95 schemes. Certain areas of the civil service did not.

Please post factual information

Dannyboy83

Drumpot wrote: »

I have nothing against Pensioners, I have a problem with sections of society trying to appeal to our good nature by crying foul of what has happened and claim poverty. I believe in protecting the vulnerable, not those looking to simply protect their lifestyle.

BINGO!

swampgas

Drumpot wrote: »

And as for the person that metioned people with children. In most cases, the children of today will be looking after the OAP's of tomorrow and as far as I can tell the state , overall, makes more out of most children then any of the welfare provided to parents to bring them up.

Not just that, the children who were unable to vote during the 00's actually are the only true section of society that can say they had no say in how our country was run or where we find ourselves now.

I agree. However the days when half the population was under 25 and the ratio of pensioners to workers was very low are over. The demographic timebomb is present in many countries and Ireland is no exception. The pension problems our children will eventually have to face up to are considerable, and the decisions made by the current generation will have a major impact on them - pension reform is something we owe the next generation.

joolsveer

Idbatterim wrote: »

Not only do pensioners have their pensions, they probably also own property and have other assets and savings. AFAIC if they are relying solely on state or public service pensions, tough look if they have to take cuts.

What is the evidence for the contention that pensioners have extra assets?

sollar

johnboy_123 wrote: »

So why is the private sector which is already been cut by employers have to bear this pain.

They aren't a block of people why do you insist of talking about them as such. They are a wide and varied bunch ranging from millionaire business people to dirt poor min wage earners.

Some of them have had payrises, some have had small cuts, some have had large cuts and some have been sacked or laid off. They have had completely differing experiences of this resession.

kaiser sauze

Idbatterim wrote: »

Could all benefits not be taxed the way income is?

The State pension and PS pensions are both already reckonable for taxation purposes.

Geuze

A single person over 65 is exempt from tax if earning 20k or less.

A married couple is exempt if one person is over 65, and the earnings are under 40k. This is a serious exemption.

Also, over 65s get an age tax credit of 325 single / 650 married.


On superannuation, please note that most PS have always paid 6.5% pension contribution. Civil servants pay 1.5%. This is separate from PRSI.

They now also pay the new pension levy.

Gumbo

Geuze wrote: »

A single person over 65 is exempt from tax if earning 20k or less.

A married couple is exempt if one person is over 65, and the earnings are under 40k. This is a serious exemption.

Also, over 65s get an age tax credit of 325 single / 650 married.


On superannuation, please note that most PS have always paid 6.5% pension contribution. Civil servants from pre 1995 pay 1.5%. This is separate from PRSI.

They now also pay the new pension levy.

just edited your post slightly, im a civil servant and i pay the full 6.5% (plus the levy etc)
and the pre 95 staff get no welfare benefits, dental etc IIRC

joolsveer

I understand that PS pensioners who have a state pension will not have the new deduction from the state pension only from the public sector pension.

eamo12

NotInventedHere wrote: »

I would never vote for those christian right wing bastards, also the candidate in my area seems no better than a County Councillor with her leaflets talking about planning approvals and community centres. Blah Blah Blah more of the same old parochial ****. In fact any politician that has been tainted by working in the current system can fcuk right off. I want a fresh start.

Oh please - go and vote for your Joe Higgins/ Sinn Fein clone and see if that will save your benefits. There is the a generation of emigrants leaving our shores looking for an honest job - the socialists PS whingers here should just feck off to Cuba or Venezuela and live the 'dream'. They will soon realise that in real socialist systems, the handouts and healthcare are not all the propaganda promises.