Noonan - First rumblings against EU?

Sir Oxman

On Primetime just now made a point twice of saying he was getting concerned about current statements coming out of the EU in regards to Ireland's position.
He expected more solidarity from our EU collegaues and thought he would never hear himself say that and wondered aloud whether the IMF were more sympathetic and understanding and helpful to Ireland than our so-called colleagues in Europe.

I post that as I hope to God that the opposition are beginning to realise this as the truth - the EU is all about the German and French banks not taking the hit and to hell with the Irish people.

gandalf

I think with all the noise coming today from German MEP's about doubling our corporate tax rate and the fact the EU are asking for a higher interest rate than the IMF are it is becoming clear that all that interests our European partners is saving their banks rather than having any empathy for the Irish citizens or Irish taxpayers. I must say that over the last couple of weeks Michael Noonan has impressed me immensely and surely he has now redeemed himself in the eyes of the Irish electorate.

If Fine Gael are going to take a truly tough line with the EU and if they stick to their re-inventing Government policies then I will give my vote to them in upcoming General Election.

jank

But how many times have we been told to vote yes for Lisbon.
The sooner we leave the euro the better. We should have never joined it in the first place. Does that make me anti-eu no, it just make me pro-Ireland more than anti-eu.

bleg

gambiaman wrote: »

He expected more solidarity from our EU collegaues and thought he would never hear himself say that and wondered aloud whether the IMF were more sympathetic and understanding and helpful to Ireland than our so-called colleagues in Europe.

He's dead right.

Rebelheart

gambiaman wrote: »

On Primetime just now made a point twice of saying he was getting concerned about current statements coming out of the EU in regards to Ireland's position.
He expected more solidarity from our EU collegaues and thought he would never hear himself say that and wondered aloud whether the IMF were more sympathetic and understanding and helpful to Ireland than our so-called colleagues in Europe.

I post that as I hope to God that the opposition are beginning to realise this as the truth - the EU is all about the German and French banks not taking the hit and to hell with the Irish people.

I was not impressed - not impressed at all - about the decision earlier today to grant EU Commission workers a 3.7% salary increase this year, despite salaries being slashed by member states across the EU. I can't find this story on The Irish Times or RTÉ: Here.

Sir Oxman

gandalf wrote: »

I think with all the noise coming today from German MEP's about doubling our corporate tax rate and the fact the EU are asking for a higher interest rate than the IMF are it is becoming clear that all that interests our European partners is saving their banks rather than having any empathy for the Irish citizens or Irish taxpayers. I must say that over the last couple of weeks Michael Noonan has impressed me immensely and surely he has now redeemed himself in the eyes of the Irish electorate.

If Fine Gael are going to take a truly tough line with the EU and if they stick to their re-inventing Government policies then I will give my vote to them in upcoming General Election.

FG will also get my vote if they continue and follow through this line.

I caught Ivan Yates on TV3 saying the EU want us to do this now as in 2013 the Germans will be ready to endorse a change to how the euro is run, that this is the road they have decided to take.

It is for Ireland to take the shyte to get to 2013 without damage to Spain however all indications are Portugal and Spain will be next, in every way the markets have been 4 steps ahead of the EU and will continue to be IMO.

gandalf

gambiaman wrote: »

FG will also get my vote if they continue and follow through this line.

Of all the parties they are making enough right noises for me to be considering them seriously.

I caught Ivan Yates on TV3 saying the EU want us to do this now as in 2013 the Germans will be ready to endorse a change to how the euro is run, that this is the road they have decided to take.

Ivan is no longer a member of FG so I wouldn't take his opinion as those of the FG party. The German economy is strong so in reality outside of protecting their banks exposure they don't give a toss about Ireland and the pain its citizens will have to go through.

It is for Ireland to take the shyte to get to 2013 without damage to Spain however all indications are Portugal and Spain will be next, in every way the markets have been 4 steps ahead of the EU and will continue to be IMO.

According to an article in tomorrows UK Independent Belgium is going to be joining the PIIGS club as well. The domino effect is happening anyway no matter what medicine we are being forced to take. This could be the embryonic stage of the terminal decline of the Euro.

Sir Oxman

gandalf wrote: »

Of all the parties they are making enough right noises for me to be considering them seriously.



Ivan is no longer a member of FG so I wouldn't take his opinion as those of the FG party. The German economy is strong so in reality outside of protecting their banks exposure they don't give a toss about Ireland and the pain its citizens will have to go through.


According to an article in tomorrows UK Independent Belgium is going to be joining the PIIGS club as well. The domino effect is happening anyway no matter what medicine we are being forced to take. This could be the terminal decline of the Euro.

It makes sense with Merkels pinpointing 2013 and bondholders then taking a hit.
Belgium! It'll be the bPIIGS then

Koloman

gambiaman wrote: »

It makes sense with Merkels pinpointing 2013 and bondholders then taking a hit.
Belgium! It'll be the bPIIGS then

I saw the former Belgian Prime minister on Sky News, Guy Verhofstadt, lecturing us about our problem saying we all need "more" Europe not less. It makes sense now!

T runner

gambiaman wrote: »

On Primetime just now made a point twice of saying he was getting concerned about current statements coming out of the EU in regards to Ireland's position.
He expected more solidarity from our EU collegaues and thought he would never hear himself say that and wondered aloud whether the IMF were more sympathetic and understanding and helpful to Ireland than our so-called colleagues in Europe.

I post that as I hope to God that the opposition are beginning to realise this as the truth - the EU is all about the German and French banks not taking the hit and to hell with the Irish people.

I was encouraged by Noonan. His idea for a European wide growth initiative driven by larger countries as a solution rather than concentrating on smaller countries debts solely was interesting.

The Irish economist from London also pointed out that the most pro Irish economy stance should have been. we cant afford this bailout Mr EU and ECB, we admit it now, we want to default on our sovereign debt...what you gonna do about it?

Mccarthy seeemd to be giving direct advice to Noonan and gauging him. He mentioned "open field" rugby which might have to be played with the EU, later in the term by Noonan when he is minister. Noonan being a Limerick man will get that!

Absurdum

Koloman wrote: »

I saw the former Belgian Prime minister on Sky News, Guy Verhofstadt, lecturing us about our problem saying we all need "more" Europe not less. It makes sense now!

Declan Ganley shot him down big time as well.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/video/Declan-Ganley-Calls-For-Reform-Of-Bankrupt-Euro-Model/Video/201011415822266

Buford T Justice

gandalf wrote: »

Of all the parties they are making enough right noises for me to be considering them seriously.

I agree. I was quite impressed with Micheal Noonan on prime time. He was talking a lot of sense.

meglome

Glad to hear this. We owe them a crap load of money which brings with it a level of control over what happens.

kaiser sauze

Absurdum wrote: »

Declan Ganley shot him down big time as well.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/video/Declan-Ganley-Calls-For-Reform-Of-Bankrupt-Euro-Model/Video/201011415822266

Ganley went off on a populist tangent and did not really address what Verhofstadt was saying.

nesf

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Ganley went off on a populist tangent and did not really address what Verhofstadt was saying.

Indeed, Ganley pretty much just ignored what he said and went off on his prepared rant.

david75

Dunno if anyone else heard it but O Callaghan asked Noonan would FG default if they were to find themselves in power and he said there's no way they would default.

Panrich

Richard Bruton said that we wouldn't default on sovereign debt but that senior bond-holders in banks may have to 'share the pain' with the taxpayer. EU won't be liking this.

Buford T Justice

Panrich wrote: »

Richard Bruton said that we wouldn't default on sovereign debt but that senior bond-holders in banks may have to 'share the pain' with the taxpayer. EU won't be liking this.

I believe Noonan said pretty much the same thing

nesf

Panrich wrote: »

Richard Bruton said that we wouldn't default on sovereign debt but that senior bond-holders in banks may have to 'share the pain' with the taxpayer. EU won't be liking this.

Noonan was very exact. The current guarantee protects the senior bondholders. He very carefully did not say anything about what would happen if said guarantee was left to lapse.

Cannibal Ox

gambiaman wrote:

He expected more solidarity from our EU collegaues and thought he would never hear himself say that and wondered aloud whether the IMF were more sympathetic and understanding and helpful to Ireland than our so-called colleagues in Europe.

What does he expect? On Monday the Greens almost undid the IMF/ECB plan by announcing they would withdraw from government. Yesterday, after they'd published the plan, Fine Gael came out and said they wouldn't be bound by it, completely destroying the point of having a plan. Labour have been scaring the **** out of the markets by saying they can cut less when they cannot. All the opposition parties, alongside the government parties, have done nothing this week except prove how entirely incompetent they are outside their parishes.

This is way, way bigger then Ireland. This is the entire EU project at stake. The plan is a piece of spin directed at the markets. Having the opposition march out and announce that they would reserve the right to change it was entirely irresponsible. This country is going to suffer, there is no way of avoiding that, but when we start to bring other countries into danger because Noonan wants to get elected...if I was Olli Rehn I would be absolutely furious at every single politician in this country for playing party politics in the middle of the biggest crisis Europe has faced since WWII.

Dempo1

Intriguing development and not before time. Its becoming increasingly clear the Motivations behind this Generous bail out offer are principally to do with the amount of wonga Irish Banks owe the ECB. It galls me listening to European Bureaucrats sanctimonious gestures of encouragement to our failed government to take the bait and straddle Ireland with debts it will never be able to pay off.

I'm no economics expert but if there is one thing most if not all economic analysts agree on, its the fact we can not afford further debt, in addition the dreaded notion of "Default" seems to becoming an acceptable option by some commentators.

It seems to me we are in this mess because of the Banks, this bailout is yet another mechanism to help the banks not Irish Citizens, Jesus when is someone just going to say STOP!

meglome

Dempo1 wrote: »

Intriguing development and not before time. Its becoming increasingly clear the Motivations behind this Generous bail out offer are principally to do with the amount of wonga Irish Banks owe the ECB. It galls me listening to European Bureaucrats sanctimonious gestures of encouragement to our failed government to take the bait and straddle Ireland with debts it will never be able to pay off.

I'm no economics expert but if there is one thing most if not all economic analysts agree on, its the fact we can not afford further debt, in addition the dreaded notion of "Default" seems to becoming an acceptable option by some commentators.

It seems to me we are in this mess because of the Banks, this bailout is yet another mechanism to help the banks not Irish Citizens, Jesus when is someone just going to say STOP!

While I'm glad Noonan is hinting at this. I can understand that people who loaned us money would like it back. But there's no doubt that banks/country's that made risky investments in Ireland should have to pay the piper to some degree.

K-9

Dempo1 wrote: »

Intriguing development and not before time. Its becoming increasingly clear the Motivations behind this Generous bail out offer are principally to do with the amount of wonga Irish Banks owe the ECB. It galls me listening to European Bureaucrats sanctimonious gestures of encouragement to our failed government to take the bait and straddle Ireland with debts it will never be able to pay off.

I'm no economics expert but if there is one thing most if not all economic analysts agree on, its the fact we can not afford further debt, in addition the dreaded notion of "Default" seems to becoming an acceptable option by some commentators.

It seems to me we are in this mess because of the Banks, this bailout is yet another mechanism to help the banks not Irish Citizens, Jesus when is someone just going to say STOP!

Most of the ECB funding was supposed to be a short term measure to allow banks get over the banking crisis. Our banks were availing of 15/20% of the over all fund, not good. Indeed it would appear AIB was basically using it as a credit lifeline and that can't be allowed to happen either.

It is more an indictment on us that we haven't sorted out the issues at this stage.

Panrich

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

This is way, way bigger then Ireland. This is the entire EU project at stake.

And yet we seem to be the ones suffering all the pain.

gandalf

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

This is way, way bigger then Ireland. This is the entire EU project at stake. The plan is a piece of spin directed at the markets. Having the opposition march out and announce that they would reserve the right to change it was entirely irresponsible. This country is going to suffer, there is no way of avoiding that, but when we start to bring other countries into danger because Noonan wants to get elected...if I was Olli Rehn I would be absolutely furious at every single politician in this country for playing party politics in the middle of the biggest crisis Europe has faced since WWII.

I am afraid that our politicians only concern now should be the future of Ireland and if the EU are trying to saddle us with a debt and a rate of return from that debt that will cripple the nation for at least a decade and longer then our politicians should be pushing it back on them.

As you say the whole EU project is at stake and that is something our negotiating team should be using to their advantage. Given this governments weak wristed performance for its term I do not feel they have the skill sets to carry out this negotiation.

Personally I do not care if Olli Rehn is spitting fireballs at this stage the only thing that counts is our negotiators get the absolute best deal for Ireland, if they don't we should walk from the table and prepare for the death of the Euro.

Also what Noonan said last night is that they had talked to the EU/IMF and once the targets weren't changed specific parts of the plan could be changed. So its not like they unveiled it on National Telly for the first time last night. They are committed to the reduction in spending that is required, they may change around the areas that are being targeted.

Dotsie~tmp

K-9 wrote: »

Most of the ECB funding was supposed to be a short term measure to allow banks get over the banking crisis. Our banks were availing of 15/20% of the over all fund, not good. Indeed it would appear AIB was basically using it as a credit lifeline and that can't be allowed to happen either.

It is more an indictment on us that we haven't sorted out the issues at this stage.

Sort out what exactly? There has been a global economic collapse and a liquidity crisis (money shortage) pressing every bank and nation on the globe for two years and its is far from over. Its beyond any one nation to "fix" it. Whats happened for two years is a decision to rescue a banking system from debts that MUST be realised and land at lenders bondholders doors. The medicine the EU has decided is worse than the disease. They are willing to lose a limb, us before taking the action thats necessary.

Let the already unsaveable banks fail orderly. Their investors catch losses and start with a trillion euro stimulus (just print the money). Then reorder the rest of the healthy banking sector. I belive they already decided this. We are just being left behind to cover the retreat, fall on some grenades till it hits the big mainland economies.

F*ck that sh*t!

gandalf

This is the article from todays UK's Independent that mentions Belgium coming into the fore as one of the economies in danger.

But the most worrying aspect of this article is the Spanish situation as per the snippet of the article posted below. If they need a bailout then in reality it is adiós Euro time. In that case why should we be the one to "throw ourselves on a grenade" if the battle is going to be lost anyway (Dotsie~tmp I stole your imagery there!).

But it is Spain that offers the single greatest challenge to the future of the euro. Many fear that even the resources of the €750bn European Financial Stability Facility, the vehicle for the current round of bailouts, will be insufficient to stem the tsunami of money flowing out of these stricken countries. So far the bailouts of €110bn and €80-€90bn for Greece and Ireland respectively have been big enough to meet their financing needs for the next two to three years. But such an exercise for Spain would mean finding a "whopping" €420bn, say analysts at Capital Economics. It could be more, however; Spain's banking system, hit hard by the bursting of a property bubble, has liabilities of €3,464bn, compared with €1,658bn in Ireland.

dolphin city

we need to get out of this trap that they have set for us. We need out of the IMF, out of the Eu and back to our own currency.

the will "sell" you anything you want to hear now to get us on board and once we are tied into this there is no going back.

we need to vote for IRELAND not for the germans.

Buford T Justice

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

What does he expect? On Monday the Greens almost undid the IMF/ECB plan by announcing they would withdraw from government. Yesterday, after they'd published the plan, Fine Gael came out and said they wouldn't be bound by it, completely destroying the point of having a plan. Labour have been scaring the **** out of the markets by saying they can cut less when they cannot. All the opposition parties, alongside the government parties, have done nothing this week except prove how entirely incompetent they are outside their parishes.

This is way, way bigger then Ireland. This is the entire EU project at stake. The plan is a piece of spin directed at the markets. Having the opposition march out and announce that they would reserve the right to change it was entirely irresponsible. This country is going to suffer, there is no way of avoiding that, but when we start to bring other countries into danger because Noonan wants to get elected...if I was Olli Rehn I would be absolutely furious at every single politician in this country for playing party politics in the middle of the biggest crisis Europe has faced since WWII.

Heaven forbid that FG are trying to get the best deal for the country instead of being railroaded into masses of debt for future generations to come. Just because FF spout the mantra that this is in the interest of the nation and such bilge doen't make them right. Lets face it, they've been wrong about everything else in the last two years, what are the chances of getting this right?

The EU is solely interested in Europe as a whole, they couldn't give a toss about the debt that this country will be left with, their concern is the preservation of the euro, thats all. I think its fair to say that this plan should be re-negotiated.

Such is the confidence of FF in their 4 year plan, they won't even put it to a vote in the House. My my, what a democracy we live in.

Edit: It also looks like the EU / IMF have not endorsed the plan as of yet.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/report-euimf-do-not-approve-of-four-year-plan-483155.html

I wonder has it anything to do with the corporation tax rate?

K-9

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Sort out what exactly? There has been a global economic collapse and a liquidity crisis (money shortage) pressing every bank and nation on the globe for two years and its is far from over. Its beyond any one nation to "fix" it. Whats happened for two years is a decision to rescue a banking system from debts that MUST be realised and land at lenders bondholders doors. The medicine the EU has decided is worse than the disease. They are willing to lose a limb, us before taking the action thats necessary.

Let the already unsaveable banks fail orderly. Their investors catch losses and start with a trillion euro stimulus (just print the money). Then reorder the rest of the healthy banking sector. I belive they already decided this. We are just being left behind to cover the retreat, fall on some grenades till it hits the big mainland economies.

F*ck that sh*t!

It is effecting us moreso than others, because of problems from before 2 years ago.

That sounds like the Lehman Bros. defence.

steelcityblues

I still won't trust an FG person, and that includes Noonan, when it comes to the issue of Europe.

In the not too distant future and if we are presented with a new European vote, we will hear some guff from Kenny or whoever about the need for 'growth' as a reason to back another measure that will limit our economic and personal freedoms as citizens.

It doesn't really matter what Noonan says on any current affairs show, because like the government , his party were useful idiots to this whole endgame gaining in strength.

professore

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

What does he expect? On Monday the Greens almost undid the IMF/ECB plan by announcing they would withdraw from government. Yesterday, after they'd published the plan, Fine Gael came out and said they wouldn't be bound by it, completely destroying the point of having a plan. Labour have been scaring the **** out of the markets by saying they can cut less when they cannot. All the opposition parties, alongside the government parties, have done nothing this week except prove how entirely incompetent they are outside their parishes.

This is way, way bigger then Ireland. This is the entire EU project at stake. The plan is a piece of spin directed at the markets. Having the opposition march out and announce that they would reserve the right to change it was entirely irresponsible. This country is going to suffer, there is no way of avoiding that, but when we start to bring other countries into danger because Noonan wants to get elected...if I was Olli Rehn I would be absolutely furious at every single politician in this country for playing party politics in the middle of the biggest crisis Europe has faced since WWII.

I am very pro EU but I think we need to put Ireland first here. I don't believe the EU have our best interests at heart at the moment. The fact that the ECB want to charge us a higher interest rate than the IMF says it all.

Sir Oxman

gandalf wrote: »

This is the article from todays UK's Independent that mentions Belgium coming into the fore as one of the economies in danger.

But the most worrying aspect of this article is the Spanish situation as per the snippet of the article posted below. If they need a bailout then in reality it is adiós Euro time. In that case why should we be the one to "throw ourselves on a grenade" if the battle is going to be lost anyway (Dotsie~tmp I stole your imagery there!).

The staggering figure there for me is Spanish banks 3.5 trillion in liabilities and Irish banks 1.7 trillion - Spain's economy is at least ten times bigger!:eek:

Jesus Christ!

EDIT: Amhran nua has put me straight on those figures, see his post later on

KerranJast

professore wrote: »

I am very pro EU but I think we need to put Ireland first here. I don't believe the EU have our best interests at heart at the moment. The fact that the ECB want to charge us a higher interest rate than the IMF says it all.

It wouldn't even really just be putting Ireland first. It would also be helping Europe in the long run. If we are forced to pay for the bank debt at punitive rates we'll eventually have to default in a disorderly fashion which could seriously damage not just the Euro put the whole EU structure.

Dotsie~tmp

Lets not also forget that its immoral to expect ordinary taxpayers to pay for the bad bets of private banking institutions and investors. This seems to be lost in the ether now because the goverment and EU are framing the whole argument. Remember people will still be expected to pay their mortgages and private debts in full. This is a scam. FF were already going down hard. I doubt they will ever come back if people come round to the idea they betrayed the nation.

God im starting to sound like a Labour voter.

james.xix

I think Ireland should default on the banks and not our sovereign debt.
While I'd back Noonan, I have doubt about FG and Labour. The reason I'd back them is they had the country in a healthy position in '97. I knew it then as well which is why I was surprised they lost power that year.
I wouldn't really vote left but the United Left Alliance might get a lot of votes. They don't believe we should be protecting the bondholders which is something I'd agree with. If they run a good campaign, they could get a lot of support and take the support the main 3 parties do not get.

jmayo

Fingers McGee wrote: »

Heaven forbid that FG are trying to get the best deal for the country instead of being railroaded into masses of debt for future generations to come. Just because FF spout the mantra that this is in the interest of the nation and such bilge doen't make them right. Lets face it, they've been wrong about everything else in the last two years, what are the chances of getting this right?

The EU is solely interested in Europe as a whole, they couldn't give a toss about the debt that this country will be left with, their concern is the preservation of the euro, thats all. I think its fair to say that this plan should be re-negotiated.

Such is the confidence of FF in their 4 year plan, they won't even put it to a vote in the House. My my, what a democracy we live in.

Edit: It also looks like the EU / IMF have not endorsed the plan as of yet.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/report-euimf-do-not-approve-of-four-year-plan-483155.html

I wonder has it anything to do with the corporation tax rate?

So far the opposition parties, FG in particular appear to be viewing the ECB bailout for whta it is, a death sentence for this country.

I don't think the government realise or care that we have an ace.
That is if we walk away we default, but at this stage we will bring the euro down with us.
If we take what is purported to be their offer we save them for a while, but we will definetly default down the road.

steelcityblues wrote: »

I still won't trust an FG person, and that includes Noonan, when it comes to the issue of Europe.

In the not too distant future and if we are presented with a new European vote, we will hear some guff from Kenny or whoever about the need for 'growth' as a reason to back another measure that will limit our economic and personal freedoms as citizens.

It doesn't really matter what Noonan says on any current affairs show, because like the government , his party were useful idiots to this whole endgame gaining in strength.

Take off your anti FG glasses and just look who is currently saying what at the moment.
FG are the ones saying that they will renegogiate the detail in the 4 year plan, they are the ones pointing out the ECB/EU are offering us worse tersms than the IMF and something needs to be done about dumping bank debt.

BTW how were they useful idiots in this endgame, they have not been in charge no more than any of other opposition parties included the ones I bet you favour.

professore wrote: »

I am very pro EU but I think we need to put Ireland first here. I don't believe the EU have our best interests at heart at the moment. The fact that the ECB want to charge us a higher interest rate than the IMF says it all.

The EU only care about one thing keeping their Euro afloat.
They need to as they put it "stop the contagion".
They need to prevent this reaching Spain until they can try and twist things around.

This deal will mean they saddle us with huge debts, their banks get their Irish bank bonds paid off, and they postpone the hit on the Euro.
If they do manage to stave off a collapse in the Euro long enough that some of the PIIGS do not default, then watch the Germans, French, Dutch trying to find an out of the Euro strategy.

By God now we know how smart were the Danes and the Swedes.

Cannibal Ox

@ gandalf, Fingers McGee, professore

We cannot fight everybody on our own. We are a tiny country with a massive debt. If we default now, the consequences of that are huge not just for us, but for the EU and for the world. If we stick with the EU we may well default in three years, two years, or one year. But at least we get a tiny amount of breathing space and we will have the support of the EU. If we leave the EU, we will be taken apart and served to the markets on a platter.

We are not the only country suffering. Greece is suffering and it's quite likely Portugal will join us soon. We need our politicians to present a united front with each other, with the country and with the EU precisely because of what is facing the EU, what is facing Portugal, Belgium, Italy and Spain. If Ireland dithers, it has huge consequences for all of them and the world. This is not the time to indulge in introspection and infighting. This is the time to pick a side and stick with it.

I hate saying that we should let Fianna Fail pass the budget but, as far as I'm concerned, that is the consequence of voting them into power over and over again, of not protesting when we should have, and of the opposition failing to take advantage of repeated chances to bring them. It is an indictment against this country that we are in this position with the most incapable group of people possible to manage it. But that is where we are and we need to deal with it.

Because we cannot run away from this. I am choosing to put my faith in the Germans and the EU as a whole. I am hoping that they haven't played their full hand yet. I could well be wrong. They could fail abjectly. It could send this country to hell. But I would rather trust them ahead of any politician in this country and I would rather side with them then the markets. If the EU comes through this intact, it will change the world and it will do it for the better. The alternative could be a catastrophe, and I do not want Ireland to be a part in bringing that about.

Dotsie~tmp

FG arent saying we dont have to get our soverign finances in order. The MAY be saying that private banking debt isnt ordinary peoes problem. Which is obvious and the norm.

As for your assertion that you put more trust in foreign goverments that dont live here, have an active interest in us shouldering their banks debt, arent elected by us than an Irish party I would say it is bizzarre and idiotic.

Sir Oxman

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

@ gandalf, Fingers McGee, professore

We cannot fight everybody on our own. We are a tiny country with a massive debt. If we default now, the consequences of that are huge not just for us, but for the EU and for the world. If we stick with the EU we may well default in three years, two years, or one year. But at least we get a tiny amount of breathing space and we will have the support of the EU. If we leave the EU, we will be taken apart and served to the markets on a platter.

We are not the only country suffering. Greece is suffering and it's quite likely Portugal will join us soon. We need our politicians to present a united front with each other, with the country and with the EU precisely because of what is facing the EU, what is facing Portugal, Belgium, Italy and Spain. If Ireland dithers, it has huge consequences for all of them and the world. This is not the time to indulge in introspection and infighting. This is the time to pick a side and stick with it.

I hate saying that we should let Fianna Fail pass the budget but, as far as I'm concerned, that is the consequence of voting them into power over and over again, of not protesting when we should have, and of the opposition failing to take advantage of repeated chances to bring them. It is an indictment against this country that we are in this position with the most incapable group of people possible to manage it. But that is where we are and we need to deal with it.

Because we cannot run away from this. I am choosing to put my faith in the Germans and the EU as a whole. I am hoping that they haven't played their full hand yet. I could well be wrong. They could fail abjectly. It could send this country to hell. But I would rather trust them ahead of any politician in this country and I would rather side with them then the markets. If the EU comes through this intact, it will change the world and it will do it for the better. The alternative could be a catastrophe, and I do not want Ireland to be a part in bringing that about.

It's the private bank debt that Noonan was on about I believe.
Again, every expert seems to concur that Ireland can deal with the real sovereign debt over a period of 4 to 6 years- yes, it will still be harsh and people will have to accept cuts and increased taxes.

But most appear to agree that if we continue down the road of burdening the nation with rotten private bank debt essentially to shore up foreign banks and the Euro project as it stands, then Ireland, our country, is bolloxed.

Ireland will not be leaving the EU either so stop the scaremongering in that regard.

You say the time is now to pick a side - well, I pick Ireland.

Sticky_Fingers

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

@ gandalf, Fingers McGee, professore

We cannot fight everybody .............................................................
The alternative could be a catastrophe, and I do not want Ireland to be a part in bringing that about.

I sorry but that is the most ridiculous thing I have heard today, we are being sacrificed for the European good and you think we should grin and bear it? Sweet jesus, the whole street is on fire and you want us to intentionally burn down our own house to try and stall the inevitable just to provide our neightbours time to get their stuff out of their gaff. We won't be thanked for it and while we are living in our burnt ruin they will be busy rebuilding while getting us to pay for it.

We need to look out for ourselves in this, no one is going to come riding over the hill to our rescue. No matter what we do we're persona non grata in Brussels despite all the sacrifices we have made to save the Euro project. We guaranteed and pumped all this countries savings into banks so our larger neighbours would not have to suffer and we could save face. We took drastic action with regards budget cuts and austerity measures that have never been seen in this nations history, we have tried everything that we possibly could except what we should have done back in 2008, let the banks fail, protect depositors and let the people who gambled pick up the tab.

Now we are being told to take yet another loan that will sink this country, not for our own sake but for the greater good of our European neighbours who would happily set this country and its woes adrift into the Atlantic if we didn't owe them money. F@<k that...

hinault

I am very pro-EU and pro-Euro.

The reason we are where we are is because irish banks chose to borrow far too much money and then loaned that money in an irresponsible way.
To compound this, when the irish banks were caught out, Lenihan decided to indemnify their liabilities by agreeing to the taxpayer picking up the tab.

Now that we find the tab is far higher than we were told in Sept 2008, we're kicking up blue murder!


Let's put the boot on the other foot.
If Irish banks had loaned money to German banks, and who in turn pissed that money away on irresponsible lending.
The German State takes over these loans and tells Dublin "eh, we haven't a bob to repay ye" - what would our reaction be???

As others have said on other threads, the debts incurred by our banks should be taken off the sovereign balance sheet and handed back to the Irish banks. Let the Irish banks deal with the bondholders.
If it means the death of Irish banks, so be it.

We've had 2 years and 2 months to set up an alternative banking system in this country and this government welched on this option as well.

The cause and effect of this entire situation centres on the irresponsible business methods of the irish banks.


Noonan is right to the extent that we need help from the EU - but we need the right kind of help.

Let the Irish banks die - transfer the debt back to them and let them and the bondholders haggle it and punish each other.
And in the meantime, invite foreign banks in to our economy to provide the services which our banks have consistently failed to provide.

norrie rugger

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

What does he expect? On Monday the Greens almost undid the IMF/ECB plan by announcing they would withdraw from government. Yesterday, after they'd published the plan, Fine Gael came out and said they wouldn't be bound by it, completely destroying the point of having a plan. Labour have been scaring the **** out of the markets by saying they can cut less when they cannot. All the opposition parties, alongside the government parties, have done nothing this week except prove how entirely incompetent they are outside their parishes.

This is way, way bigger then Ireland. This is the entire EU project at stake. The plan is a piece of spin directed at the markets. Having the opposition march out and announce that they would reserve the right to change it was entirely irresponsible. This country is going to suffer, there is no way of avoiding that, but when we start to bring other countries into danger because Noonan wants to get elected...if I was Olli Rehn I would be absolutely furious at every single politician in this country for playing party politics in the middle of the biggest crisis Europe has faced since WWII.

Then FF should hav been more open about the figures, to the opposition parties.

FF seem to be playing the game of "screw the incomming and rebound at the next election" game

Cannibal Ox

norrie rugger wrote:

Then FF should hav been more open about the figures, to the opposition parties.

They should. God only knows they should've but if we listed all the things FF should've done, the budget, the election and the bailout will come and go and we won't even have noticed. It's not the time to be doing that, we need to be talking about what we're doing now, and where we're going.

Sticky_Fingers wrote:

Sweet jesus, the whole street is on fire and you want us to intentionally burn down our own house to try and stall the inevitable just to provide our neightbours time to get their stuff out of their gaff. We won't be thanked for it and while we are living in our burnt ruin they will be busy rebuilding while getting us to pay for it.

I want Irish politicians to stop acting like a bunch of children. I want them all to line up in front of the world's media and announce a budget plan jointly tomorrow. I want them to shake hands with EU commissioners and kiss little Spanish and Portuguese babies on the cheek. I want them to be eating bratwurst, croissants and drinking espressos while they do it. I want them to pretend, if only for a week or two, like they are standing shoulder to shoulder with each other and with Europe because this is not the time to be messing around with party politics. The people who forced our bondholding up so high that we had to resort to the IMF/ECB are the people we should be worrying about, not the EU, not FF, not ourselves, and the more we resort to bickering, the more opportunity we give them to continue to go after us and to go after other countries.

gambiaman wrote:

It's the private bank debt that Noonan was on about I believe.
...
But most appear to agree that if we continue down the road of burdening the nation with rotten private bank debt essentially to shore up foreign banks and the Euro project as it stands, then Ireland, our country, is bolloxed.

Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy have been saying that senior bondholders have to take responsibility for their debts for months. Olli Rehn's spokesman came out today and said the same thing. It's Brian Cowen and Brian Lenihan who have been insisting that senior bondholders not take any responsibility for their debt.

Either Noonan doesn't know that or he does. I'd be flabbergasted if he doesn't. If he does, then the only way I can read it is that he is positioning himself and FG for the election, so that when the elections role around he can say "Look, we didn't do what FF did, we tried to stand up for you, against the banks, against the IMF, against the EU." which is disingenuous at best.

gambiaman wrote:

Ireland will not be leaving the EU either so stop the scaremongering in that regard.

I'm not trying to scaremonger about our EU membership, despite the people in this thread and elsewhere arguing that we should default which would no doubt improve our EU membership, I'm only trying to point out, that if we learnt anything this week, it's the absolute incompetence of our politicians, not just at home but abroad.

Dotsie~tmp wrote:

FG arent saying we dont have to get our soverign finances in order. The MAY be saying that private banking debt isnt ordinary peoes problem. Which is obvious and the norm.

FG coming out and declaring that they can change the four year plan or giving out about the EU is dangerous because it creates uncertainty in the market as regards our future and our relationship with the EU. Why would FG expect more from the EU when they are doing that? As far as I'm concerned, they can do what ever they want with the four year plan the moment they get into power. They can use what ever they want with the EU behind closed doors. But doing this in front of the world now is absolutely irresponsible.

Dotsie~tmp wrote:

As for your assertion that you put more trust in foreign goverments that dont live here, have an active interest in us shouldering their banks debt, arent elected by us than an Irish party I would say it is bizzarre and idiotic.

What ever you say about the EU, they are neither bizarre nor idiotic. They cannot force so much debt on us that we will collapse because that will bring an EU country down. They do not want the markets to bring an EU country to bankruptcy. That cannot happen. This is not Zimbabwe and this is not the African Union. This is Ireland, a member of the EU. They may fail in that, but it cannot be their intention.

As for us, our president is unelected, our leader was chosen by his party, we've been underrepresented in the Dail for months, and the opposition, as glorious a prospect as they may appear now, have consecutively failed to bring down a government of whom a fair analogy would be an old age pensioner with a bad back and one leg. This is without even getting into our past politicians, who themselves were no strangers to corruption and incompetence. If it were just Ireland, I wouldn't be so vocal, but my trust in Irish politicians capabilities to deal on the EU level could be measured in centimeters.

Sir Oxman

Re: Merkel asking for bondholders to face losses

After 2013.

Meanwhile, she and the EU big guns are very willing to let Irish citizens take on every cent of private rotten bank debt since 2008.

irishh_bob

gambiaman wrote: »

On Primetime just now made a point twice of saying he was getting concerned about current statements coming out of the EU in regards to Ireland's position.
He expected more solidarity from our EU collegaues and thought he would never hear himself say that and wondered aloud whether the IMF were more sympathetic and understanding and helpful to Ireland than our so-called colleagues in Europe.

I post that as I hope to God that the opposition are beginning to realise this as the truth - the EU is all about the German and French banks not taking the hit and to hell with the Irish people.

cowen wouldnt know **** if he was face down in it , the opposition need to get people on the streets so as to prevent this bailout ( mortgage ) going ahead , we have to default and deal direct with the IMF ,to hell with the EU , this will cause short term hardship on a huge scale but when the dust settles , the slate can be wiped and we can start afresh , if we sign up to this mortgage , we are mortgaging several generations just so british and german banks dont go down

Cannibal Ox

gambiaman wrote: »

Re: Merkel asking for bondholders to face losses

After 2013.

Meanwhile, she and the EU big guns are very willing to let Irish citizens take on every cent of private rotten bank debt since 2008.

And the markets went awol when she said it. Why? Because it's their money. If we, an EU state, actually default on our debt without some kind of mechanism or agreement in place they, without even getting into the consequences for us, will run out of Portugal, Belgium and Spain.

We need the time we're getting. We can work on the bondholders. We can work on the ECB. We can work on the Germans. If we pull the plug, we don't have that time.

Panrich

It looks like we're f*ucked in any case, no matter how we proceed from here. I'm all for kicking the hangman on the shins as we go though. We should not mortgage our childrens future meekly and deferentially.

LostinBlanch

Speaking as someone who has been up until recently enthusiastically pro EU and pro Euro, we have to look at the reality of the situation. The EU i.e. Merkel, Sarkozy, Commission, ECB etc are prepared to see us sold into penury for generations to pay for German and French banks excessive risk taking. Here's a quote from Juergen Fitschen a board member of Deutsche Bank

Investors who sought high returns by buying Irish debt shouldn't act like they weren't aware of the risk, he added

Merkel et al are quite prepared to sentence us to an economic Auschwitz as part of Frankfurt's final solution.

F*ck em. We have to look after ourselves now as the EU want to sacrifice us.

I never thought I'd see the day when the IMF are more sympathetic to Ireland's plight than the EU.

EDIT: Just to point out I am still pro EU, just less so today.

norrie rugger

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Speaking as someone who has been up until recently enthusiastically pro EU and pro Euro, we have to look at the reality of the situation. The EU i.e. Merkel, Sarkozy, Commission, ECB etc are prepared to see us sold into penury for generations to pay for German and French banks excessive risk taking. Here's a quote from Juergen Fitschen a board member of Deutsche Bank



Merkel et al are quite prepared to sentence us to an economic Auschwitz as part of Frankfurt's final solution.

F*ck em. We have to look after ourselves now as the EU want to sacrifice us.

I never thought I'd see the day when the IMF are more sympathetic to Ireland's plight than the EU.

EDIT: Just to point out I am still pro EU, just less so today.

My exact feelings also, I am afraid.

Sir Oxman

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

And the markets went awol when she said it. Why? Because it's their money. If we, an EU state, actually default on our debt without some kind of mechanism or agreement in place they, without even getting into the consequences for us, will run out of Portugal, Belgium and Spain.

We need the time we're getting. We can work on the bondholders. We can work on the ECB. We can work on the Germans. If we pull the plug, we don't have that time.

Not one of those countries governments have taken on private bank debt and lumped it into the sovereign debt.

We don't renege on our sovereign debt (no-one is saying this at all) but we must restructure/disentangle our sovereign from the mess of the private bank debt which a criminal FF/GP govt with the approval or indeed 'guidance' of the ECB have forced onto us.