Noonan - First rumblings against EU?

Sir Oxman

On Primetime just now made a point twice of saying he was getting concerned about current statements coming out of the EU in regards to Ireland's position.
He expected more solidarity from our EU collegaues and thought he would never hear himself say that and wondered aloud whether the IMF were more sympathetic and understanding and helpful to Ireland than our so-called colleagues in Europe.

I post that as I hope to God that the opposition are beginning to realise this as the truth - the EU is all about the German and French banks not taking the hit and to hell with the Irish people.

gandalf

I think with all the noise coming today from German MEP's about doubling our corporate tax rate and the fact the EU are asking for a higher interest rate than the IMF are it is becoming clear that all that interests our European partners is saving their banks rather than having any empathy for the Irish citizens or Irish taxpayers. I must say that over the last couple of weeks Michael Noonan has impressed me immensely and surely he has now redeemed himself in the eyes of the Irish electorate.

If Fine Gael are going to take a truly tough line with the EU and if they stick to their re-inventing Government policies then I will give my vote to them in upcoming General Election.

jank

But how many times have we been told to vote yes for Lisbon.
The sooner we leave the euro the better. We should have never joined it in the first place. Does that make me anti-eu no, it just make me pro-Ireland more than anti-eu.

bleg

gambiaman wrote: »

He expected more solidarity from our EU collegaues and thought he would never hear himself say that and wondered aloud whether the IMF were more sympathetic and understanding and helpful to Ireland than our so-called colleagues in Europe.

He's dead right.

Rebelheart

gambiaman wrote: »

On Primetime just now made a point twice of saying he was getting concerned about current statements coming out of the EU in regards to Ireland's position.
He expected more solidarity from our EU collegaues and thought he would never hear himself say that and wondered aloud whether the IMF were more sympathetic and understanding and helpful to Ireland than our so-called colleagues in Europe.

I post that as I hope to God that the opposition are beginning to realise this as the truth - the EU is all about the German and French banks not taking the hit and to hell with the Irish people.

I was not impressed - not impressed at all - about the decision earlier today to grant EU Commission workers a 3.7% salary increase this year, despite salaries being slashed by member states across the EU. I can't find this story on The Irish Times or RTÉ: Here.

Sir Oxman

gandalf wrote: »

I think with all the noise coming today from German MEP's about doubling our corporate tax rate and the fact the EU are asking for a higher interest rate than the IMF are it is becoming clear that all that interests our European partners is saving their banks rather than having any empathy for the Irish citizens or Irish taxpayers. I must say that over the last couple of weeks Michael Noonan has impressed me immensely and surely he has now redeemed himself in the eyes of the Irish electorate.

If Fine Gael are going to take a truly tough line with the EU and if they stick to their re-inventing Government policies then I will give my vote to them in upcoming General Election.

FG will also get my vote if they continue and follow through this line.

I caught Ivan Yates on TV3 saying the EU want us to do this now as in 2013 the Germans will be ready to endorse a change to how the euro is run, that this is the road they have decided to take.

It is for Ireland to take the shyte to get to 2013 without damage to Spain however all indications are Portugal and Spain will be next, in every way the markets have been 4 steps ahead of the EU and will continue to be IMO.

gandalf

gambiaman wrote: »

FG will also get my vote if they continue and follow through this line.

Of all the parties they are making enough right noises for me to be considering them seriously.

I caught Ivan Yates on TV3 saying the EU want us to do this now as in 2013 the Germans will be ready to endorse a change to how the euro is run, that this is the road they have decided to take.

Ivan is no longer a member of FG so I wouldn't take his opinion as those of the FG party. The German economy is strong so in reality outside of protecting their banks exposure they don't give a toss about Ireland and the pain its citizens will have to go through.

It is for Ireland to take the shyte to get to 2013 without damage to Spain however all indications are Portugal and Spain will be next, in every way the markets have been 4 steps ahead of the EU and will continue to be IMO.

According to an article in tomorrows UK Independent Belgium is going to be joining the PIIGS club as well. The domino effect is happening anyway no matter what medicine we are being forced to take. This could be the embryonic stage of the terminal decline of the Euro.

Sir Oxman

gandalf wrote: »

Of all the parties they are making enough right noises for me to be considering them seriously.



Ivan is no longer a member of FG so I wouldn't take his opinion as those of the FG party. The German economy is strong so in reality outside of protecting their banks exposure they don't give a toss about Ireland and the pain its citizens will have to go through.


According to an article in tomorrows UK Independent Belgium is going to be joining the PIIGS club as well. The domino effect is happening anyway no matter what medicine we are being forced to take. This could be the terminal decline of the Euro.

It makes sense with Merkels pinpointing 2013 and bondholders then taking a hit.
Belgium! It'll be the bPIIGS then

Koloman

gambiaman wrote: »

It makes sense with Merkels pinpointing 2013 and bondholders then taking a hit.
Belgium! It'll be the bPIIGS then

I saw the former Belgian Prime minister on Sky News, Guy Verhofstadt, lecturing us about our problem saying we all need "more" Europe not less. It makes sense now!

T runner

gambiaman wrote: »

On Primetime just now made a point twice of saying he was getting concerned about current statements coming out of the EU in regards to Ireland's position.
He expected more solidarity from our EU collegaues and thought he would never hear himself say that and wondered aloud whether the IMF were more sympathetic and understanding and helpful to Ireland than our so-called colleagues in Europe.

I post that as I hope to God that the opposition are beginning to realise this as the truth - the EU is all about the German and French banks not taking the hit and to hell with the Irish people.

I was encouraged by Noonan. His idea for a European wide growth initiative driven by larger countries as a solution rather than concentrating on smaller countries debts solely was interesting.

The Irish economist from London also pointed out that the most pro Irish economy stance should have been. we cant afford this bailout Mr EU and ECB, we admit it now, we want to default on our sovereign debt...what you gonna do about it?

Mccarthy seeemd to be giving direct advice to Noonan and gauging him. He mentioned "open field" rugby which might have to be played with the EU, later in the term by Noonan when he is minister. Noonan being a Limerick man will get that!

Absurdum

Koloman wrote: »

I saw the former Belgian Prime minister on Sky News, Guy Verhofstadt, lecturing us about our problem saying we all need "more" Europe not less. It makes sense now!

Declan Ganley shot him down big time as well.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/video/Declan-Ganley-Calls-For-Reform-Of-Bankrupt-Euro-Model/Video/201011415822266

Buford T Justice

gandalf wrote: »

Of all the parties they are making enough right noises for me to be considering them seriously.

I agree. I was quite impressed with Micheal Noonan on prime time. He was talking a lot of sense.

meglome

Glad to hear this. We owe them a crap load of money which brings with it a level of control over what happens.

kaiser sauze

Absurdum wrote: »

Declan Ganley shot him down big time as well.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/video/Declan-Ganley-Calls-For-Reform-Of-Bankrupt-Euro-Model/Video/201011415822266

Ganley went off on a populist tangent and did not really address what Verhofstadt was saying.

nesf

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Ganley went off on a populist tangent and did not really address what Verhofstadt was saying.

Indeed, Ganley pretty much just ignored what he said and went off on his prepared rant.

david75

Dunno if anyone else heard it but O Callaghan asked Noonan would FG default if they were to find themselves in power and he said there's no way they would default.

Panrich

Richard Bruton said that we wouldn't default on sovereign debt but that senior bond-holders in banks may have to 'share the pain' with the taxpayer. EU won't be liking this.

Buford T Justice

Panrich wrote: »

Richard Bruton said that we wouldn't default on sovereign debt but that senior bond-holders in banks may have to 'share the pain' with the taxpayer. EU won't be liking this.

I believe Noonan said pretty much the same thing

nesf

Panrich wrote: »

Richard Bruton said that we wouldn't default on sovereign debt but that senior bond-holders in banks may have to 'share the pain' with the taxpayer. EU won't be liking this.

Noonan was very exact. The current guarantee protects the senior bondholders. He very carefully did not say anything about what would happen if said guarantee was left to lapse.

Cannibal Ox

gambiaman wrote:

He expected more solidarity from our EU collegaues and thought he would never hear himself say that and wondered aloud whether the IMF were more sympathetic and understanding and helpful to Ireland than our so-called colleagues in Europe.

What does he expect? On Monday the Greens almost undid the IMF/ECB plan by announcing they would withdraw from government. Yesterday, after they'd published the plan, Fine Gael came out and said they wouldn't be bound by it, completely destroying the point of having a plan. Labour have been scaring the **** out of the markets by saying they can cut less when they cannot. All the opposition parties, alongside the government parties, have done nothing this week except prove how entirely incompetent they are outside their parishes.

This is way, way bigger then Ireland. This is the entire EU project at stake. The plan is a piece of spin directed at the markets. Having the opposition march out and announce that they would reserve the right to change it was entirely irresponsible. This country is going to suffer, there is no way of avoiding that, but when we start to bring other countries into danger because Noonan wants to get elected...if I was Olli Rehn I would be absolutely furious at every single politician in this country for playing party politics in the middle of the biggest crisis Europe has faced since WWII.

Dempo1

Intriguing development and not before time. Its becoming increasingly clear the Motivations behind this Generous bail out offer are principally to do with the amount of wonga Irish Banks owe the ECB. It galls me listening to European Bureaucrats sanctimonious gestures of encouragement to our failed government to take the bait and straddle Ireland with debts it will never be able to pay off.

I'm no economics expert but if there is one thing most if not all economic analysts agree on, its the fact we can not afford further debt, in addition the dreaded notion of "Default" seems to becoming an acceptable option by some commentators.

It seems to me we are in this mess because of the Banks, this bailout is yet another mechanism to help the banks not Irish Citizens, Jesus when is someone just going to say STOP!

meglome

Dempo1 wrote: »

Intriguing development and not before time. Its becoming increasingly clear the Motivations behind this Generous bail out offer are principally to do with the amount of wonga Irish Banks owe the ECB. It galls me listening to European Bureaucrats sanctimonious gestures of encouragement to our failed government to take the bait and straddle Ireland with debts it will never be able to pay off.

I'm no economics expert but if there is one thing most if not all economic analysts agree on, its the fact we can not afford further debt, in addition the dreaded notion of "Default" seems to becoming an acceptable option by some commentators.

It seems to me we are in this mess because of the Banks, this bailout is yet another mechanism to help the banks not Irish Citizens, Jesus when is someone just going to say STOP!

While I'm glad Noonan is hinting at this. I can understand that people who loaned us money would like it back. But there's no doubt that banks/country's that made risky investments in Ireland should have to pay the piper to some degree.

K-9

Dempo1 wrote: »

Intriguing development and not before time. Its becoming increasingly clear the Motivations behind this Generous bail out offer are principally to do with the amount of wonga Irish Banks owe the ECB. It galls me listening to European Bureaucrats sanctimonious gestures of encouragement to our failed government to take the bait and straddle Ireland with debts it will never be able to pay off.

I'm no economics expert but if there is one thing most if not all economic analysts agree on, its the fact we can not afford further debt, in addition the dreaded notion of "Default" seems to becoming an acceptable option by some commentators.

It seems to me we are in this mess because of the Banks, this bailout is yet another mechanism to help the banks not Irish Citizens, Jesus when is someone just going to say STOP!

Most of the ECB funding was supposed to be a short term measure to allow banks get over the banking crisis. Our banks were availing of 15/20% of the over all fund, not good. Indeed it would appear AIB was basically using it as a credit lifeline and that can't be allowed to happen either.

It is more an indictment on us that we haven't sorted out the issues at this stage.

Panrich

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

This is way, way bigger then Ireland. This is the entire EU project at stake.

And yet we seem to be the ones suffering all the pain.

gandalf

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

This is way, way bigger then Ireland. This is the entire EU project at stake. The plan is a piece of spin directed at the markets. Having the opposition march out and announce that they would reserve the right to change it was entirely irresponsible. This country is going to suffer, there is no way of avoiding that, but when we start to bring other countries into danger because Noonan wants to get elected...if I was Olli Rehn I would be absolutely furious at every single politician in this country for playing party politics in the middle of the biggest crisis Europe has faced since WWII.

I am afraid that our politicians only concern now should be the future of Ireland and if the EU are trying to saddle us with a debt and a rate of return from that debt that will cripple the nation for at least a decade and longer then our politicians should be pushing it back on them.

As you say the whole EU project is at stake and that is something our negotiating team should be using to their advantage. Given this governments weak wristed performance for its term I do not feel they have the skill sets to carry out this negotiation.

Personally I do not care if Olli Rehn is spitting fireballs at this stage the only thing that counts is our negotiators get the absolute best deal for Ireland, if they don't we should walk from the table and prepare for the death of the Euro.

Also what Noonan said last night is that they had talked to the EU/IMF and once the targets weren't changed specific parts of the plan could be changed. So its not like they unveiled it on National Telly for the first time last night. They are committed to the reduction in spending that is required, they may change around the areas that are being targeted.

Dotsie~tmp

K-9 wrote: »

Most of the ECB funding was supposed to be a short term measure to allow banks get over the banking crisis. Our banks were availing of 15/20% of the over all fund, not good. Indeed it would appear AIB was basically using it as a credit lifeline and that can't be allowed to happen either.

It is more an indictment on us that we haven't sorted out the issues at this stage.

Sort out what exactly? There has been a global economic collapse and a liquidity crisis (money shortage) pressing every bank and nation on the globe for two years and its is far from over. Its beyond any one nation to "fix" it. Whats happened for two years is a decision to rescue a banking system from debts that MUST be realised and land at lenders bondholders doors. The medicine the EU has decided is worse than the disease. They are willing to lose a limb, us before taking the action thats necessary.

Let the already unsaveable banks fail orderly. Their investors catch losses and start with a trillion euro stimulus (just print the money). Then reorder the rest of the healthy banking sector. I belive they already decided this. We are just being left behind to cover the retreat, fall on some grenades till it hits the big mainland economies.

F*ck that sh*t!

gandalf

This is the article from todays UK's Independent that mentions Belgium coming into the fore as one of the economies in danger.

But the most worrying aspect of this article is the Spanish situation as per the snippet of the article posted below. If they need a bailout then in reality it is adiós Euro time. In that case why should we be the one to "throw ourselves on a grenade" if the battle is going to be lost anyway (Dotsie~tmp I stole your imagery there!).

But it is Spain that offers the single greatest challenge to the future of the euro. Many fear that even the resources of the €750bn European Financial Stability Facility, the vehicle for the current round of bailouts, will be insufficient to stem the tsunami of money flowing out of these stricken countries. So far the bailouts of €110bn and €80-€90bn for Greece and Ireland respectively have been big enough to meet their financing needs for the next two to three years. But such an exercise for Spain would mean finding a "whopping" €420bn, say analysts at Capital Economics. It could be more, however; Spain's banking system, hit hard by the bursting of a property bubble, has liabilities of €3,464bn, compared with €1,658bn in Ireland.

dolphin city

we need to get out of this trap that they have set for us. We need out of the IMF, out of the Eu and back to our own currency.

the will "sell" you anything you want to hear now to get us on board and once we are tied into this there is no going back.

we need to vote for IRELAND not for the germans.

Buford T Justice

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

What does he expect? On Monday the Greens almost undid the IMF/ECB plan by announcing they would withdraw from government. Yesterday, after they'd published the plan, Fine Gael came out and said they wouldn't be bound by it, completely destroying the point of having a plan. Labour have been scaring the **** out of the markets by saying they can cut less when they cannot. All the opposition parties, alongside the government parties, have done nothing this week except prove how entirely incompetent they are outside their parishes.

This is way, way bigger then Ireland. This is the entire EU project at stake. The plan is a piece of spin directed at the markets. Having the opposition march out and announce that they would reserve the right to change it was entirely irresponsible. This country is going to suffer, there is no way of avoiding that, but when we start to bring other countries into danger because Noonan wants to get elected...if I was Olli Rehn I would be absolutely furious at every single politician in this country for playing party politics in the middle of the biggest crisis Europe has faced since WWII.

Heaven forbid that FG are trying to get the best deal for the country instead of being railroaded into masses of debt for future generations to come. Just because FF spout the mantra that this is in the interest of the nation and such bilge doen't make them right. Lets face it, they've been wrong about everything else in the last two years, what are the chances of getting this right?

The EU is solely interested in Europe as a whole, they couldn't give a toss about the debt that this country will be left with, their concern is the preservation of the euro, thats all. I think its fair to say that this plan should be re-negotiated.

Such is the confidence of FF in their 4 year plan, they won't even put it to a vote in the House. My my, what a democracy we live in.

Edit: It also looks like the EU / IMF have not endorsed the plan as of yet.
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/report-euimf-do-not-approve-of-four-year-plan-483155.html

I wonder has it anything to do with the corporation tax rate?

K-9

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Sort out what exactly? There has been a global economic collapse and a liquidity crisis (money shortage) pressing every bank and nation on the globe for two years and its is far from over. Its beyond any one nation to "fix" it. Whats happened for two years is a decision to rescue a banking system from debts that MUST be realised and land at lenders bondholders doors. The medicine the EU has decided is worse than the disease. They are willing to lose a limb, us before taking the action thats necessary.

Let the already unsaveable banks fail orderly. Their investors catch losses and start with a trillion euro stimulus (just print the money). Then reorder the rest of the healthy banking sector. I belive they already decided this. We are just being left behind to cover the retreat, fall on some grenades till it hits the big mainland economies.

F*ck that sh*t!

It is effecting us moreso than others, because of problems from before 2 years ago.

That sounds like the Lehman Bros. defence.

steelcityblues

I still won't trust an FG person, and that includes Noonan, when it comes to the issue of Europe.

In the not too distant future and if we are presented with a new European vote, we will hear some guff from Kenny or whoever about the need for 'growth' as a reason to back another measure that will limit our economic and personal freedoms as citizens.

It doesn't really matter what Noonan says on any current affairs show, because like the government , his party were useful idiots to this whole endgame gaining in strength.