Class Discipline

barleybooley

Hi Guys, feel free to tell me if this isn't the right place but here goes:

I'm supervising at the moment in a secondary school where my mother is deputy principal. I'm supervising students in subjects that I haven't done in years but have been instructed to give out work. In each class there are one or two students who insist on rocking the boat despite being moved, notes in journals to get signed and so forth. It's obviously very disruptive behaviour and very unfair on those who want to work.

Any tips from actual teachers on class control? These kids' names are constantly being mentioned in the staff room so they play up in every class. They are from all years and it is solely boys that are giving me grief, the girls don't.

freire

Back of the class, all together and ignore them as you would any pariah. It's tough but it's worth it. Cut off the oxygen.

I'm feeling cynical today for some reason.

On the other hand you could try engaging with them on some level, offer to help them with assigned work, keep them busy in one way or another, preferably productively. Could be they're weaker kids, bored because they're unable and therefore unwilling to do the work.

It's a rare kid that's all bad, there's usually a reason for annoying you. And in fairness you're fresh meat, won't help if they know you're the son of someone either.

But don't bring the prejudices of the staff room to the classroom, as kids can often sense this.

If all else fails tell them they're boring and give them a thousand lines.

Kohl

barleybooley wrote: »

Hi Guys, feel free to tell me if this isn't the right place but here goes:

I'm supervising at the moment in a secondary school where my mother is deputy principal. I'm supervising students in subjects that I haven't done in years but have been instructed to give out work. In each class there are one or two students who insist on rocking the boat despite being moved, notes in journals to get signed and so forth. It's obviously very disruptive behaviour and very unfair on those who want to work.

Any tips from actual teachers on class control? These kids' names are constantly being mentioned in the staff room so they play up in every class. They are from all years and it is solely boys that are giving me grief, the girls don't.

put them out of the classroom? who cares whether these idiots get an education or not. they obviously don't want to learn or they'd shut the **** up

freckly

Are you a teacher? You can use what you learned from your own subjects. If youre not a teacher, you really shouldnt be supervising. Not meant as a personal attack, but there are so many NQTs looking for subbing and a vice principals son or daughter should not be there. You really do need training and experience to know what to do in any classroom, be it teaching or supervising.

delta_bravo

Confidence in your subject: Brush up and be confident. If they know you are a sub you are immediately on the back foot.

Proximity: Stay near the students throughout the class. Stay standing and maintain a good presence.

Choice: Say to them "you can start working now or you will have punishment work etc.". If they say to you punishment work to be funny just dish it out at the end of class.

One on one: A one on one chat at the end of class when the audience isn't around can help.

delta_bravo

Kohl wrote: »

put them out of the classroom? who cares whether these idiots get an education or not. they obviously don't want to learn or they'd shut the **** up

Thats fairly rubbish advice. Has that ever worked in your class?

Fizzical

A main function of the Deputy Principal is maintenance of discipline within the school.

The DP also supports individual teachers in maintaining discipline within their own classes.

Ask your mother for advice and active help during school time.

And if you are not a trained teacher, you should NOT be there.

implausible

Kohl wrote: »

put them out of the classroom? who cares whether these idiots get an education or not. they obviously don't want to learn or they'd shut the **** up

Methinks the poster isn't a teacher....:rolleyes:

Dionysus

Kohl wrote: »

put them out of the classroom?

One word: insurance.

barleybooley

freckly wrote: »

Are you a teacher? You can use what you learned from your own subjects. If youre not a teacher, you really shouldnt be supervising. Not meant as a personal attack, but there are so many NQTs looking for subbing and a vice principals son or daughter should not be there. You really do need training and experience to know what to do in any classroom, be it teaching or supervising.

Fizzical wrote: »

A main function of the Deputy Principal is maintenance of discipline within the school.

The DP also supports individual teachers in maintaining discipline within their own classes.

Ask your mother for advice and active help during school time.

And if you are not a trained teacher, you should NOT be there.

I'm hardly going to turn down work at a time when I'm not entitled to *ANYTHING* from the state and my only source of income is a few hours at the weekend in a pub. Also, my mother tried to get someone in for the week that this particular teacher is out for but to no avail. I didn't ask for advice on whether I was entitled to be there or not, I merely asked how to get control of a class.

Thanks to everyone else. I've started to take up journals when people are acting up and I tell them if they've to be warned again, they're getting a note home (their journals have to be signed every evening). This seems to work for most kids but there are some who don't give a damn if I do that. It doesn't matter where I put them, they just keep disrupting other students, throwing stuff at them kicking the other kids' tables, NIGHTMARE. They just seem to be proud that they're not going anywhere. I know it's awful to say but they even tell me themselves they don't care about school, which in itself is fine but they insist on trying to drag others down with them. I know it's in every school everywhere and has gone on for years but I'd just love to know how I keep it to a minimum.

evolving_doors

Have you tried turning the rest of the class on them?

freire

barleybooley wrote: »

It doesn't matter where I put them, they just keep disrupting other students, throwing stuff at them kicking the other kids' tables, NIGHTMARE.

I feel your pain. This is unfortunately part and parcel of learning the trade. If you're fairly green it's going to happen, no amount of advice or 'book learning' will sort it out for you.

It really helps to be assertive and project confidence, have some kind of presence. Believe in yourself. This is corny but very true. You're the one in charge, the only one, you're the boss, what you say goes.

Give them no quarter. They don't argue. They don't question your instruction, ever. You have to be consistent on this and it's tough at the start with little experience but it's fundamental.

Have you tried phoning parents? Arranging a meeting? Going to year head?
Most parents will not like having to come to the school to discuss Sean or Mary's appalling lack of manners and respect. If only because it messes up their day.

Your code of conduct provides for this sort of thing, it's usually a staged thing, persistent disruption and misbehaviour has sanctions, it has to otherwise the lunatics would be running the asylum. Don't be afraid to ask for help.

Kids can be very tough customers, they can spot any weakness very quickly and work on it. And work on it. And the worst is that you could lose the entire class as that behaviour is like a disease, it infects and changes class dynamic to an alarming degree.

We all see it and some of the most experienced teachers in school see it and have to deal with it. And learn from it.

Every day's a school day.

kermitpwee

barleybooley wrote: »

I'm hardly going to turn down work at a time when I'm not entitled to *ANYTHING* from the state and my only source of income is a few hours at the weekend in a pub. Also, my mother tried to get someone in for the week that this particular teacher is out for but to no avail. I didn't ask for advice on whether I was entitled to be there or not, I merely asked how to get control of a class.

Thanks to everyone else. I've started to take up journals when people are acting up and I tell them if they've to be warned again, they're getting a note home (their journals have to be signed every evening). This seems to work for most kids but there are some who don't give a damn if I do that. It doesn't matter where I put them, they just keep disrupting other students, throwing stuff at them kicking the other kids' tables, NIGHTMARE. They just seem to be proud that they're not going anywhere. I know it's awful to say but they even tell me themselves they don't care about school, which in itself is fine but they insist on trying to drag others down with them. I know it's in every school everywhere and has gone on for years but I'd just love to know how I keep it to a minimum.

Follow my advice and you will be fine.

These kids think your not going to "hang them". Now when they act up detail the incident on paper and give it to the year head. They will then have sanctions imposed on them by the year head and they will cop on. It's the only way forward for you. Writing in their journal will not work for the hardcore offender.

Keep at it, it will get better if you follow what i have detailed. Don't be worried because your mam is vice, you have to take action for your own sanity and the students education.

Good luck.

evolving_doors

DEfinitey keep an exact record of everything that happens, if things escalate further you may be asked to outline the incidents and the more you have the better, ... It happened to me before ..after every class I just blotted it out of my mind,,, eventually when I went to the vice she asked for a record and I just mumbled and bumbled...make a list..follow the chain of discipline from tutor to year head to vice principal..

In the end i refused to teach that class till they stopped,, the rest of the class turned on the students (verbally).. it was amazing to hear them speak up for the class while I stood back for a change. (just took 2 days too)
I think you need to get at least a 75% majority of students on your side for this to work though.

seriouslysweet

Have you been given no guidelines? As for supervising, surely you should do something with them. I'd be frustrated if a non-teacher came into us and just sat there twiddling their thumbs!

doc_17

Ring home and speak to someone - won't work for all of them but it might work for one. But be warned - ask other staff members if they have done this cos there's a chance you might be told to go and get f******!

naoimikid

everything you have said is so true. I have recently entered teaching as a NQT. I have been teaching full-time since September (all boys). It is only after three months that I am starting to really get anywhere with disruptive students. I think the biggest mistake NQTs make is that they try to be liked by their students - this can be a big mistake as they start to see you as being on their level and forget that you are in charge. I have one particular class that are very difficult in terms of behaviour - they constantly talk, mess, argue, throw things around the room, ask ridiculous and personal questions etc throughout the lesson. It is extremely frustrating as I have tried several different methods of discipline to little avail. I write notes in journals, send students to their year head, issue detentions, phone parents and the issue is not improving too much. it is particularly difficult because about 70% of the class are disruptive and it is difficult to pin-point any one or two students who are a problem. Sometimes you can get everyone paying attention for a few minutes (bliss) and then all of a sudden some smartass makes a comment or joke and I lose the attention of the students again. I then ask for the student's journal or ask them to go to the year head and they put up a fight. I refuse to argue or discuss the issue but time gets wasted on the student who actually doesn't care about their education. This bothers me beyond belief! To make the situation worse, the teacher they had last year did not get enough work covered with the class and they are an exam class. I am now under severe pressure to get the course covered and am actually gettin guff from parents because of that. Some parents do not realise that their kids are not studying and presume that when the student gets a bad result, its the teacher's fault. It is a very difficult job!

superdooper

doc_17 wrote: »

Ring home and speak to someone - won't work for all of them but it might work for one. But be warned - ask other staff members if they have done this cos there's a chance you might be told to go and get f******!

While I wouldnt use those exact words, you would get a fairly short shrift from me. REAL teachers wouldnt but the one who does a few weekend shifts down the local bar suddenly playing teacher and then giving out about behaviour because she hasnt a clue what shes at would. I would seriously advise you not to ring the parents- I would imagine that most parents would have this reaction. Those who dont will probably give out behind your back. You cant expect respect if the students know your not a teacher...sure its hard enough for the real teachers to get respect. Im not saying its right, but it is the way it is!

funkt

kermitpwee wrote: »

Follow my advice and you will be fine.

These kids think your not going to "hang them". Now when they act up detail the incident on paper and give it to the year head. They will then have sanctions imposed on them by the year head and they will cop on. It's the only way forward for you. Writing in their journal will not work for the hardcore offender.

Keep at it, it will get better if you follow what i have detailed. Don't be worried because your mam is vice, you have to take action for your own sanity and the students education.

Good luck.

not a great idea kids will lose any bit of respect they may have had for you if you go running to a higher power
best thing to do is get them on your side
a good way to do this is chat and a bit of a joke with the class and be sure to include the messers aswel
before long all the students will get bored of the work sheets the teacher has left and will cop on that the chances are the teacher wont even correct them
so roll along with the students youl be less stressed and u will come out with more controle aswel

Sardonicat

barleybooley wrote: »

Hi Guys, feel free to tell me if this isn't the right place but here goes:

I'm supervising at the moment in a secondary school where my mother is deputy principal. I'm supervising students in subjects that I haven't done in years but have been instructed to give out work. In each class there are one or two students who insist on rocking the boat despite being moved, notes in journals to get signed and so forth. It's obviously very disruptive behaviour and very unfair on those who want to work.

Any tips from actual teachers on class control? These kids' names are constantly being mentioned in the staff room so they play up in every class. They are from all years and it is solely boys that are giving me grief, the girls don't.

Is this even legal?

gaeilgebeo

Sardonicat wrote: »

Is this even legal?

It is legal. Why would it be illegal?

barleybooley

Armelodie wrote: »

Have you tried turning the rest of the class on them?

Don't think this is fair? A little ostracising? Bullying maybe? Wouldn't sit right with me...

seriouslysweet wrote: »

Have you been given no guidelines? As for supervising, surely you should do something with them. I'd be frustrated if a non-teacher came into us and just sat there twiddling their thumbs!

I was told by the principal to do work with them but that was as far as the instructions went so I gave them loads of exams questions to do with the book and have done for the next class. They then told me when I was collecting them that they didn't think I was serious, that they never had to hand up work before and I'd well believe it seeing as I myself had the teacher I was filling in for and they were beyond useless.

doc_17 wrote: »

Ring home and speak to someone - won't work for all of them but it might work for one. But be warned - ask other staff members if they have done this cos there's a chance you might be told to go and get f******!

Em, wouldn't really be comfortable with that, surely that's for the higher powers to do in more serious cases?

superdooper wrote: »

While I wouldnt use those exact words, you would get a fairly short shrift from me. REAL teachers wouldnt but the one who does a few weekend shifts down the local bar suddenly playing teacher and then giving out about behaviour because she hasnt a clue what shes at would. I would seriously advise you not to ring the parents- I would imagine that most parents would have this reaction. Those who dont will probably give out behind your back. You cant expect respect if the students know your not a teacher...sure its hard enough for the real teachers to get respect. Im not saying its right, but it is the way it is!

Eh, do you know me?! I feel like you're having a personal dig at me in that post! Seeing as I actually *do* work in a pub at the weekends and I am female?

Sardonicat wrote: »

Is this even legal?

I'm pretty sure it is because I have an honours degree. I'm exactly as qualified as someone doing the PGDE and they're allowed to be there are they not?

Now, as it happens I'm not needed this week due to there being quite a bit of snow and ice. So next time I'm in, it'll be for an entirely different set of classes I'd say and the whole rigmarole begins again

implausible

doc_17 wrote: »

Ring home and speak to someone - won't work for all of them but it might work for one. But be warned - ask other staff members if they have done this

Do not do this without checking with other teachers first. Only form teachers are allowed to ring home in my school and in other schools.

funkt wrote: »

not a great idea kids will lose any bit of respect they may have had for you if you go running to a higher power
best thing to do is get them on your side
a good way to do this is chat and a bit of a joke with the class and be sure to include the messers aswel
so roll along with the students youl be less stressed and u will come out with more controle aswel

This was obviously written by a student. Trying to get them to like you is not the way to go (initially anyway).

As others have said, make notes of everything. I find that even taking out a bit of paper and writing students' names on it can be enough to quieten them, if they know that you are willing to go to a form teacher or year head.

Fuinseog

Kohl wrote: »

put them out of the classroom? who cares whether these idiots get an education or not. they obviously don't want to learn or they'd shut the **** up

you cannot put a child out of the classroom. the gurrier has rights and they are well versed in them.

Fuinseog

Fizzical wrote: »

A main function of the Deputy Principal is maintenance of discipline within the school.

The DP also supports individual teachers in maintaining discipline within their own classes.

Ask your mother for advice and active help during school time.

And if you are not a trained teacher, you should NOT be there.

the OP is talking about supervising, not teaching and the school is interested in having a body in the class.
a lot of teachers are teaching subjects they are not remotely qualified to teach.

Sardonicat

barleybooley wrote: »

I'm pretty sure it is because I have an honours degree. I'm exactly as qualified as someone doing the PGDE and they're allowed to be there are they not?

Now, as it happens I'm not needed this week due to there being quite a bit of snow and ice. So next time I'm in, it'll be for an entirely different set of classes I'd say and the whole rigmarole begins again

I was asking if it is legal fo a parent to decide to hire her child? Did you interview?

kermitpwee

barleybooley wrote: »

Don't think this is fair? A little ostracising? Bullying maybe? Wouldn't sit right with me...



I was told by the principal to do work with them but that was as far as the instructions went so I gave them loads of exams questions to do with the book and have done for the next class. They then told me when I was collecting them that they didn't think I was serious, that they never had to hand up work before and I'd well believe it seeing as I myself had the teacher I was filling in for and they were beyond useless.



Em, wouldn't really be comfortable with that, surely that's for the higher powers to do in more serious cases?



Eh, do you know me?! I feel like you're having a personal dig at me in that post! Seeing as I actually *do* work in a pub at the weekends and I am female?



I'm pretty sure it is because I have an honours degree. I'm exactly as qualified as someone doing the PGDE and they're allowed to be there are they not?

Now, as it happens I'm not needed this week due to there being quite a bit of snow and ice. So next time I'm in, it'll be for an entirely different set of classes I'd say and the whole rigmarole begins again

Why are you so sad? I have outlined to you in a previous post the solution to your problems.

superdooper

First of all, Ill start by saying Im not making personal digs at you. I do find the system insane and have NQT friends who cant get any work at the moment. They are under the impression that people with pull and connections are getting the subbing in a lot of cases and you are an example here.


I was told by the principal to do work with them but that was as far as the instructions went so I gave them loads of exams questions to do with the book and have done for the next class. They then told me when I was collecting them that they didn't think I was serious, that they never had to hand up work before and I'd well believe it seeing as I myself had the teacher I was filling in for and they were beyond useless.

This quote worries me and should worry you. Its a very naive thing to post on a forum. How many vice principals children are subbing in Mayo (if thats where the school is) and having difficulty? This leaves you open to identification as critiscising a teacher. If you can delete that section, do.




Eh, do you know me?! I feel like you're having a personal dig at me in that post! Seeing as I actually *do* work in a pub at the weekends and I am female?

Working in a pub is a perfectly valid job. My point is that students and parents could know you from the pub. They therefore have a good idea that
you are not a teacher (although Im sure many of the out of work NQTs are working in other jobs) and will find it hard to respect you as a teacher. When we all read about serious job shortages for teachers, how can you expect parents and children to respect you in a school? Cases like yours highlight the major problems in the system.

I'm pretty sure it is because I have an honours degree. I'm exactly as qualified as someone doing the PGDE and they're allowed to be there are they not?
Having a degree does not make you a teacher or a PGDE. PGDE students are Garda vetted. I would imagine you (or other unqualified subs) are not. They are also training, have cooperating teachers and supervised visits. They are trainee teachers and have been accepted onto a course as such. You are a person with a degree. This should not allow you into a school in the capacity of a teacher or supervisor.



[/QUOTE]

peanuthead

barleybooley wrote: »

Don't think this is fair? A little ostracising? Bullying maybe? Wouldn't sit right with me...

No I agree with previous poster who said to turn them against one another.

Fair enough, the wording isn't great but here's how I use it:

I let the class know that they have plenty of rights as students. Students love their rights. But with each right comes a responsibility.

If we don't take our responsibilities seriously, we are infringing the rights of the class. You would be amazed at how this works.

Each time you have to interrupt the lesson, you say "John, you have a responsibility to listen to me and allow the rest of the class to hear me. They have the right to be taught here, you know?"

John eventually gets the message.


Also, another tip I would give is to NEVER speak over a student. Don't get into the habit of talking over them, having to constantly raise your voice to the point you're shouting. Demand silence before you speak. I demand silence in a very simple way. I wont speak until they're quiet.

The first time I did that I was 5 minutes in front of the class staring at them. 5 MINUTES! A long time to be just standing there saying nothing. I eventually looked at my watch and then at the clock. They got the message then and now all I have to do is roll up my sleeve, look at my watch and someone is bound to actually take on the task of getting the rest of the class to quieten down for me.


Another thing that I feel works particularly well is positive reinforcement. A lot of students are bold for attention. If you give them that attention first thing , eg: as John is walking in the door say "Good morning John, and how are you today? Good I hope?" He may be less likely to kick off for said attention 5 minutes into class.

Please do try these. I worked in a seriously disadvantaged school where fcuk u was the order of the day and this worked. Not all the time, and mostly with juniors, but it worked nevertheless.

barleybooley wrote: »

Eh, do you know me?! I feel like you're having a personal dig at me in that post! Seeing as I actually *do* work in a pub at the weekends and I am female?

Don't take it personally, poster had a 50-50 chance of getting your sex right and you mentioned the pub yourself earlier!

Sardonicat wrote: »

I was asking if it is legal fo a parent to decide to hire her child? Did you interview?

It's not necessary to interview for such short term positions - not in VEC schools anyway, don't know if that is all across board but I would imagine it is.

Sardonicat

peanuthead wrote: »

It's not necessary to interview for such short term positions - not in VEC schools anyway, don't know if that is all across board but I would imagine it is.

So the only criteria needed to be fulfilled is an honours degree in anything?How is their suitability for keeping control of a room full of teens established? Are these supervisors garda vetted?

I am a graduate and I had absolutely no idea it would be possible for me to walk into a secondary school and supervise.

peanuthead

Sardonicat wrote: »

So the only criteria needed to be fulfilled is an honours degree in anything?How is their suitability for keeping control of a room full of teens established? Are these supervisors garda vetted?

I am a graduate and I had absolutely no idea it would be possible for me to walk into a secondary school and supervise.

Well, I think the desired criteria would be that they had an honours degree in the subject they were subbing for.

To be fair, it's a little naive to not know that at this stage - that has been going on for so long!

This is my first year teaching qualified, but my fifth year in total and I kid you not when I say that this is also my first year being garda vetted.

I even brought it to the attention of my last employer that I was not garda vetted and he told me I would be fine. Now I know I've done nothing odd but it was a little too trusting on his part don't you think.

Now that is probably not the procedure you will find in any Dep of Ed documentation or policies, but I can tell you that it absolutely happens.

In addition to that, if someone calls in sick and a sub is needed for a week and you can't find a qualified teacher to fill in for that week - the week would have come and gone before the sub was garda vetted, although I know they should be vetted in advance if they wish to work as subs.