Can anyone explain how reducing Minimum wage is going to help our economic rescue

Dempo1

I can not for the life of me figure out how the hard fought Minimum wage being cut by €1 per hour is going to help this four year plan.

Firstly, the Majority of sectors affected by this rate are highly unlikely to commence employing droves of unemployed, Retail and Hospitality sectors are in melt down and sure, they would like to save on payroll but certainly not increase it.

Secondly it would appear the government seem to be hitting the lowest paid with a second whammy, whereby those who were excluded from the tax net will now fall into the net, so the average person on Minimum wage will loose €40 per week and then pay tax. This appears to be bizarre and at the very least will reduce the spending power of this sector of society a sector we are told account for a substantial amount of consumer spending in our overall economy. As it is, i would suggest a large portion of those on the minimum wage currently have in fact already either faced pay cuts or at the very least reduced hours.

Extremely confused and can only lead to one thing, Deflation. Seems to me to be an illogical argument or part solution to the mess we are in.

mossyc123

Will help companies create new jobs that otherwise might not have been created.

Cookie_Monster

wages are one of the biggest costs to businesses. by cutting min wages by ~12% they can cut costs and lower prices. Also all other wages are based on min wage and in theory should falls also, in practice this will not happen though

westtip

It means the Poles will work for even less, accrue social welfare credits and then sign on after a year or so, and stay here for the rest of their lives on the juice.

It means restaurants can stay open so the teachers and retired teachers can afford to eat out 2 or 3 times a week.

It means the there are two working classes in this country - Private sector workers and public sector workers.

It means the country will not recover.

Is there anyone in the public sector on the minimum wage???????

123balltv

mossyc123 wrote: »

Will help companies create new jobs that otherwise might not have been created.

but they hav'nt really touched the dole it wont work
surely to God they could have slashed the dole by more wallies

bladespin

Pretty sure it's an attempt to lower wage levels overall, through undermining the wage level below you (hope that made sense).

For each step up the wage ladder, if you drop the level below it will make a reduction more accepteble: if you're earning €10 per hour and are asked to take a cut of 10% to €9, you're more likely to accept as employers will now have the option of employing someone else at €7.65.

Mac daddy

No point in going for a job on the minimum wage you might as well claim the dole and all benefits you will be better off.....

They cut the minimum wage but leave the dole makes no sense.

Welease

Dempo1 wrote: »

I can not for the life of me figure out how the hard fought Minimum wage being cut by €1 per hour is going to help this four year plan.

Firstly, the Majority of sectors affected by this rate are highly unlikely to commence employing droves of unemployed, Retail and Hospitality sectors are in melt down and sure, they would like to save on payroll but certainly not increase it.

Secondly it would appear the government seem to be hitting the lowest paid with a second whammy, whereby those who were excluded from the tax net will now fall into the net, so the average person on Minimum wage will loose €40 per week and then pay tax. This appears to be bizarre and at the very least will reduce the spending power of this sector of society a sector we are told account for a substantial amount of consumer spending in our overall economy. As it is, i would suggest a large portion of those on the minimum wage currently have in fact already either faced pay cuts or at the very least reduced hours.

Extremely confused and can only lead to one thing, Deflation. Seems to me to be an illogical argument or part solution to the mess we are in.

I'm not argueing the rights or wrong, but I would imagine their thinking is based along the following lines..

We are uncompetitive in costs as a nation ... We need to be cheaper to attract more investment.

The final cost of a good or service is dictated by the costs of ALL material, labour etc.. The production of a final good or service has a somewhat larger supply line of people than many folks would initially care to factor in..

Every raw material for a product (or service) has to be created, the people who create it, need to be fed, have their company toilets cleaned, water supplied, plastic cups which they drink from made, pens used to write notes made, those pens need to be bought, and delivered etc etc etc.. Have a look around your office (if you work in one) and look at each and every item in that office and work out how many people are involved in design/creation/delivery of that product to your desk..

A lot of those jobs are minimum wage, and if you drop the supply line prices a significant amount, then that could (not will) result in cheaper end goods, which would mean higher wages could (not will) drop accordingly.. etc.. If the whole chain becomes cheaper.. you become more competitive..

Right or wrong... I guess we are about to find out..

Dempo1

mossyc123 wrote: »

Will help companies create new jobs that otherwise might not have been created.

Yes i can see this is what is perceived but I genuinely can not see companies, particularly those who pay the minimum rates (Retail, Hotel & Catering, Security etc) actually employ more people as most of these sectors are struggling as it is. As explained these sectors have already seen a massive reduction in staffing levels and not because of wage rates. It just seems to be bizarre, for example say one new employee is hired, to justify this around 6 existing staff members would have to have their rates cut (based on a 40 hour week), I just can't see any job creation from this measure.

mossyc123

westtip wrote: »

It means the Poles will work for even less, accrue social welfare credits and then sign on after a year or so, and stay here for the rest of their lives on the juice.

Stay here for the rest of there lives living off social welfare?!
You've gotta be joking. In my experience the vast majority of Polish people in Ireland are highly educated and have high aspirations...Ireland is a place to earn a few quid and improve there English while there here. Some will stay, those that don't won't be happy to sit around claiming benefits ad infinitum.

mloc

On it's own it's not much use; social welfare has to be cut by a proportionately greater amount for this to be worthwhile.

Obviously FF are too stupid to realise that though.

mossyc123

Mac daddy wrote: »

No point in going for a job on the minimum wage you might as well claim the dole and all benefits you will be better off.....

They cut the minimum wage but leave the dole makes no sense.

Dole will be cut in December.

mossyc123

123balltv wrote: »

but they hav'nt really touched the dole it wont work
surely to God they could have slashed the dole by more wallies

Dole will be cut in December

Dempo1

Just for the Record, Social welfare is and will be cut, I think to compare the Minumum wage and social welfare levels is unfair.

smokin ace

cutting the min wage wont make things cheaper it will only help big companys to make and do things cheaper only to line there own packets but not take on extra staff or drop prices

what about the companys are going well the place i work for is doing well with 250 employees and only a handful of staff on min wages i am getting €9.50 per hour i am there 7 years and its 5 years ago sense i got a raise and every time i ask i am told straight out no

this will only give employers an excuse to chop and cut employees wages even if there not on min wage if €1 per hour is dropped from min wages can my employer say to me now your getting €8.50 instead of €9.50 because min wage has dropped

PeakOutput

Dempo1 wrote: »

I can not for the life of me figure out how the hard fought Minimum wage being cut by €1 per hour is going to help this four year plan.

let me explain

Firstly, the Majority of sectors affected by this rate are highly unlikely to commence employing droves of unemployed, Retail and Hospitality sectors are in melt down and sure, they would like to save on payroll but certainly not increase it.

its not about increasing employment(in the short term) its about increasing competitiveness. by lowering costs the hospitality industry for example can lower prices and encourage tourism. when business starts to pick up its cheaper to create new jobs

Secondly it would appear the government seem to be hitting the lowest paid with a second whammy, whereby those who were excluded from the tax net will now fall into the net, so the average person on Minimum wage will loose €40 per week and then pay tax.

working 40 hour weeks at the new rate is about 16K a year which is also the level of the new tac credits so people on minimum wage still wont be paying tax

This appears to be bizarre and at the very least will reduce the spending power of this sector of society a sector we are told account for a substantial amount of consumer spending in our overall economy.

it will also bring down the cost of living

As it is, i would suggest a large portion of those on the minimum wage currently have in fact already either faced pay cuts or at the very least reduced hours.

they might have alright.....because it is too expensive to employ them, this makes it easier on the business's to employ them and still be competitive and to create new jobs in the medium term. for their to be any jobs for anyone there must first be viable business's and if the old minimum means that business's are unviable then it needs to be reduced

Extremely confused and can only lead to one thing, Deflation. Seems to me to be an illogical argument or part solution to the mess we are in.

we want deflation of prices because it increases spending which increases business which increases employment opportunities which increases tax income which reduces the deficit

Welease

Dempo1 wrote: »

Yes i can see this is what is perceived but I genuinely can not see companies, particularly those who pay the minimum rates (Retail, Hotel & Catering, Security etc) actually employ more people as most of these sectors are struggling as it is. As explained these sectors have already seen a massive reduction in staffing levels and not because of wage rates. It just seems to be bizarre, for example say one new employee is hired, to justify this around 6 existing staff members would have to have their rates cut (based on a 40 hour week), I just can't see any job creation from this measure.

You are looking for a direct connection, you wont find one.. You need to think in bigger terms..

Take your hotel example.. For a single potato to arrive in the kitchen, maybe 50 people have been involved - guys making the seeds in factories, guys marketing those seeds, people taking the orders in the seed company, guys delivering the seeds to wholesalers, wholesalers sales staff, admins, stock takers etc etc farmer buys seeds and plants then.. but uses fertiliser from companies which need to make it, advertise it, take orders, pack it, deliver it etc.. when the potato is grown it needs to be picked, cleaned, packaged, shipped..to the fruit wholesalers, who has sales, admin, packing, unpacking, deliveries.. etc etc etc ..

Finally a single spud lands in a hotel....

If a large percentage of those jobs now cost less, then the price of a single potato is now less... If you use 1000's of spuds you save a lot more.

Now take that potato and think of all the items and services a hotel needs to run.. from fruit, veg, napkins, dishwasher fluid, rubbish collection, light bulbs, pillow cases, menu's, toilet roll.. each and every couple of cent from each of those items starts to add up, and that could turn into companies staying afloat or hiring new people...

SkepticOne

Dempo1 wrote: »

Yes i can see this is what is perceived but I genuinely can not see companies, particularly those who pay the minimum rates (Retail, Hotel & Catering, Security etc) actually employ more people as most of these sectors are struggling as it is. As explained these sectors have already seen a massive reduction in staffing levels and not because of wage rates. It just seems to be bizarre, for example say one new employee is hired, to justify this around 6 existing staff members would have to have their rates cut (based on a 40 hour week), I just can't see any job creation from this measure.

I think it is unlikely that an individual hotel would employ more people as soon as the minimum wage is lowered. All businesses try to operate using the least amount of staff to get the job done. What is more likely is that a hotel that is on the edge might be able to pull back a bit from the edge and keep employing people rather than shutting down and making them redundant. Perhaps a business might also start up that would not otherwise do so with the high minimum wage.

mossyc123

Dempo1 wrote: »

Yes i can see this is what is perceived but I genuinely can not see companies, particularly those who pay the minimum rates (Retail, Hotel & Catering, Security etc) actually employ more people as most of these sectors are struggling as it is. As explained these sectors have already seen a massive reduction in staffing levels and not because of wage rates. It just seems to be bizarre, for example say one new employee is hired, to justify this around 6 existing staff members would have to have their rates cut (based on a 40 hour week), I just can't see any job creation from this measure.

I see it as part of a gradual process to bring down labour costs throughout the economy. €8.65 is just too high and a lot of businesses just can't cope with it.
Taking €1 off 80,000 people on Min wage (according to Pat Rabbite) for every hour they work x 30 hrs per wk (an average figure i've plucked out of nowhere!) x 52 weeks = €124,800,000 off cost of labour.
I'd reckon the vast majority of those on the Min wage won't have their wages reduced yet or at all.
The effect will be on those who enter the labour market from now on at the new Minimum Wage bracket (€7.65)

Dempo1

Welease wrote: »

You are looking for a direct connection, you wont find one.. You need to think in bigger terms..

Take your hotel example.. For a single potato to arrive in the kitchen, maybe 50 people have been involved - guys making the seeds in factories, guys marketing those seeds, people taking the orders in the seed company, guys delivering the seeds to wholesalers, wholesalers sales staff, admins, stock takers etc etc farmer buys seeds and plants then.. but uses fertiliser from companies which need to make it, advertise it, take orders, pack it, deliver it etc.. when the potato is grown it needs to be picked, cleaned, packaged, shipped..to the fruit wholesalers, who has sales, admin, packing, unpacking, deliveries.. etc etc etc ..

Finally a single spud lands in a hotel....

If a large percentage of those jobs now cost less, then the price of a single potato is now less... If you use 1000's of spuds you save a lot more.

Now take that potato and think of all the items and services a hotel needs to run.. from fruit, veg, napkins, dishwasher fluid, rubbish collection, light bulbs, pillow cases, menu's, toilet roll.. each and every couple of cent from each of those items starts to add up, and that could turn into companies staying afloat or hiring new people...

Believe me, I'm in the Hotel sector (whats left of it), spreading a few spuds is certainly not going to help. As it is 90% of Hotels have laid off or reduced staff hours in the past two years. A reduction in the Minimum wage will at best only increase the amount of staff with even less to do. And i guarantee hotels currently are not looking at increasing staff numbers, if anything they are looking to reduce along with service standards.

Dempo1

SkepticOne wrote: »

I think it is unlikely that an individual hotel would employ more people as soon as the minimum wage is lowered. All businesses try to operate using the least amount of staff to get the job done. What is more likely is that a hotel that is on the edge might be able to pull back a bit from the edge and keep employing people rather than shutting down and making them redundant. Perhaps a business might also start up that would not otherwise do so with the high minimum wage.

Yep agreed and not just the Hotel sector.

the groutch

mossyc123 wrote: »

Will help companies create new jobs that otherwise might not have been created.

no good creating the new jobs if the social welfare cuts are smaller than the minimum wage cut, it just creates more incentive for people to stay on the dole

Welease

Dempo1 wrote: »

Believe me, I'm in the Hotel sector (whats left of it), spreading a few spuds is certainly not going to help. As it is 90% of Hotels have laid off or reduced staff hours in the past two years. A reduction in the Minimum wage will at best only increase the amount of staff with even less to do. And i guarantee hotels currently are not looking at increasing staff numbers, if anything they are looking to reduce along with service standards.

And why is that? Becuase (apart from the obvious oversupply).. this is an expensive country to do business in.. If we were more competitive in prices (indirect prices), then more business would be here, more tourists would be here, the economy grows.. which would all help the service sector to stabilse and potentially grow..

As I said.. you won't find a immediate direct link when you are looking at the economics of a country, but you can get a butterfly effect by changing seemingly unrelated factors.

PeakOutput

Dempo1 wrote: »

Believe me, I'm in the Hotel sector (whats left of it), spreading a few spuds is certainly not going to help. As it is 90% of Hotels have laid off or reduced staff hours in the past two years. A reduction in the Minimum wage will at best only increase the amount of staff with even less to do. And i guarantee hotels currently are not looking at increasing staff numbers, if anything they are looking to reduce along with service standards.

you missed his point completely

lila44

Mac daddy wrote: »

No point in going for a job on the minimum wage you might as well claim the dole and all benefits you will be better off.....

They cut the minimum wage but leave the dole makes no sense.

they are going to cut the dole, they just haven't released any details of it yet. check out www.breakingnews.ie, all details there.

you may be better off on the dole, but you're forgetting about certain people, students.

We can't get the dole, have to work minimum wage jobs to keep us in rent money, our parents are losing their jobs/taking pay cuts, and fees are going up.

Lockstep

westtip wrote: »

It means the Poles will work for even less, accrue social welfare credits and then sign on after a year or so, and stay here for the rest of their lives on the juice.

It means restaurants can stay open so the teachers and retired teachers can afford to eat out 2 or 3 times a week.

It means the there are two working classes in this country - Private sector workers and public sector workers.

It means the country will not recover.

Is there anyone in the public sector on the minimum wage???????

This Chicken Little "Sky is falling on our heads" crap is bad enough but going into xenophobia is completely unacceptable.

Don't do it again.

KindOfIrish

westtip wrote: »

Is there anyone in the public sector on the minimum wage???????

I would like to repeat the question:
Is there anyone in the public sector on the minimum wage???????
NO. NO. NO. So they cut private sector wages and not their owns.

mossyc123

KindOfIrish wrote: »

I would like to repeat the question:
Is there anyone in the public sector on the minimum wage???????
NO. NO. NO. So they cut private sector wages and not their owns.

There not cutting anyone's wages. It's a reduction in the statutory minimum giving employers the opportunity to reduce labour costs.

vonniec

i attempted to read their plan and nearly started to cry so i left it...
can someone just let me know if the politicians took a cut?? i couldn't find it in there...i thought it was odd, but then again...

mossyc123

the groutch wrote: »

no good creating the new jobs if the social welfare cuts are smaller than the minimum wage cut, it just creates more incentive for people to stay on the dole

Hopefully, they get the reductions in Social Welfare in line...we'll have to wait till 7th December.

Sir Oxman

vonniec wrote: »

i attempted to read their plan and nearly started to cry so i left it...
can someone just let me know if the politicians took a cut?? i couldn't find it in there...i thought it was odd, but then again...

I have heard nothing about our so-called leaders leading by example - yes, the savings would be minimal according to some commentators but it is the optics on this particaular expense that matters most.

There is something about a 12% cut on Pensions over 60k - still not enough.


Not a lot of pain there for one of the highest paid group of politicians & higher civil servants in the world.

the groutch

mossyc123 wrote: »

Hopefully, they get the reductions in Social Welfare in line...we'll have to wait till 7th December.

would have to be over 10%, which is very optimistic

i_love_toast

I wonder how many retail shops will be reducing the cost of their products from the budget onwards. Now this has always been their argument for the utter mad prices they charge here compared to their stores in the UK. I for one bet that the prices of items in shops here will not decrease by 1 cent from the 1e/hr wage decrease of its employers!

PeakOutput

KindOfIrish wrote: »

I would like to repeat the question:
Is there anyone in the public sector on the minimum wage???????
NO. NO. NO. So they cut private sector wages and not their owns.

unfortuantely the croke park agreement prevents this happening and it appears that the croke park agreement and public sector reform being torn up was not a condition of the bail out which is amazingly dissapointing

only18

Mac daddy wrote: »

No point in going for a job on the minimum wage you might as well claim the dole and all benefits you will be better off.....

They cut the minimum wage but leave the dole makes no sense.

True I know a guy working 2 part time jobs and earns only €22 euro more than a single person with no kids on the dole??

lucy2010

I dont see how in anyway it will kick start the Joe Soaps economy NOT the Rich economy .

Simplistic view here....
Johnny on minimum wage has €50 idle cash at the end of week.
He now loses €1 per hour. So hes down €40 a week for a 40 hour week . He then has to pay site tax, water rates, etc etc I wont go on. He now has no money to spend in Tescos. So he goes on the dole to get butter vouchers - At least he will be fed !

This is how I a joe soap public can see it. Im not interested in markets, banks, bonds, liars etc etc. Im interested in how much money I will have in my pocket to feed my family. THE MORE YOU TAKE OFF ME THE LESS I HAVE TO SURVIVE. I really thought we had shaved everything off expenditure in this house - looks like ill be having a rethink !!

So why wouldnt Johnny just give up & go on the dole.... & how this is gonna kick start any economy I dont know.

Why isnt there an increase in taxes if you earn over x amount ? Why isnt there a super tax on super rich properties ?

This is turning into a definite 2 tier society. The rich continue getting richer through loop holes that they wont bother to close off as it will effect they who make the rules. They just keep taking from the poor & therefore the poor just get poorer .

& the 25000 job cuts ?? They too will have to join the dole queues adding to those already there. So this time next year will we be looking at half a million people unemployed ...... Thats 500000 with less/ NO money to spend in this economy so how will that kickstart it ?

Im baffled !

IngazZagni

People, today wasn't the budget, it was just a broad overview of what will be happening. Wait until December 7th to post, the "why did they cut that?; why didn't they increase this?" jargain. We don't and won't know the full picture until then.

PeakOutput

lucy2010 wrote: »

I dont see how in anyway it will kick start the Joe Soaps economy NOT the Rich economy .

Simplistic view here....
Johnny on minimum wage has €50 idle cash at the end of week.
He now loses €1 per hour. So hes down €40 a week for a 40 hour week . He then has to pay site tax, water rates, etc etc I wont go on. He now has no money to spend in Tescos. So he goes on the dole to get butter vouchers - At least he will be fed !

a reduction in income does not automatically equal a reduction in spending power thats the whole point. a reduction in the minimum wage = a reduction in the cost of living. things become cheaper

This is how I a joe soap public can see it. Im not interested in markets, banks, bonds, liars etc etc. Im interested in how much money I will have in my pocket to feed my family. THE MORE YOU TAKE OFF ME THE LESS I HAVE TO SURVIVE.

again, the less money you have but not necessarily the less amount of things you can buy. if it works as intended then you might even end up in a better situation then you are now as far as spending power. and if it works as it is intended in 4 years you will be far better off and not living in a country that has just defaulted on its debt and kicked out of the eu

So why wouldnt Johnny just give up & go on the dole.... & how this is gonna kick start any economy I dont know.[/quote

because the dole is going to be cut aswell

Why isnt there an increase in taxes if you earn over x amount ? Why isnt there a super tax on super rich properties ?

both of these things are included in the plan aswell. the upper income tax band is being increased by 1% to 42%, which is 2006 levels. there will be this 'site' tax which everyone has to pay including developers and people who own sites. this is clearly a precursor to a proper property tax based on square footage or something like that. unfortuantely that sort of tax cannot be introduced fast enough to be don in the next two years

This is turning into a definite 2 tier society. The rich continue getting richer through loop holes that they wont bother to close off as it will effect they who make the rules. They just keep taking from the poor & therefore the poor just get poorer

this is FACTUALLY incorrect and complete tabloid bull****

& the 25000 job cuts ?? They too will have to join the dole queues adding to those already there. So this time next year will we be looking at half a million people unemployed ...... Thats 500000 with less/ NO money to spend in this economy so how will that kickstart it ?

i assume your talking about the aimed reduction in the public service?

do you not feel the public service is bloated and innefficient?

those particular reductions in numbers are going to achieved threw natural attrition and voluntary redundancies neither of which increases the number of people on the dole

Im baffled !

so is most of the country that dosnt mean what is happening is the wrong thing to do or shouldnt be happening it is the only option unfortuantely

Kimia

I really don't understand why people don't get this!

Lowering minimum wage = more competitive for foreign investment = more jobs!

I do however agree that they also must lower the dole, big time.

mossyc123

the groutch wrote: »

would have to be over 10%, which is very optimistic

Will come down by at least that over the next 4 years I would imagine...anything up to 20% (down from €196 to €156 by 2014) is possible

godwin

Mac daddy wrote: »

No point in going for a job on the minimum wage you might as well claim the dole and all benefits you will be better off.....

^^ Under-achiever and proud.

PeakOutput

mossyc123 wrote: »

Will come down by at least that over the next 4 years I would imagine...anything up to 20% (down from €196 to €156 by 2014) is possible

according to someone on newstalk just now it looks like the plan is to reduce it by 50euro over the next 4 years

Fore Iron

Surely the reduction in minimum wage is only that, in that it is not a pay cut per se. Someone earning 8.65 (or whatever it is) now will not suddenly be earning a euro less after the budget. Or am I missing something?

Also, I firmly believe reducing minimum wage may not provide immediate reductions in prices, costs, etc, etc, but that it certainly will over time. Hotels laying off staff for example will be under less pressure in the future if their lowest paid staff are earning less. It will also lead to a general gradual depression of wages, since tiers of wages across services sectors in particular are also referenced to minimum wage, which in turn leads to further cost reduction and better competitiveness.

Companies looking for somewhere to base their operation or a section of it, will be generally more likely to choose Ireland if base wage rates are 12% lower leading to investment and growth, again not in the immediate short term but over time.

I really am sick to death of the media in this country which have bought in wholesale to gutter journalism by trying to turn everything into a bad thing, which probably is a poor reflection on the attitude of the general population since they seem to want to listen to it. The opposition (regardless of who they are. I'm sure FF will be as bad next year. ) also seem to be completely immoral and shameless in portraying everything as being bad and detrimental. How many politicians today have said "This plan is a road to nowhere and will only hurt our position further and will sell the souls of Irish citizens to the highest bidder", and then happily give absolutely no evidence of why that might be the case.

As for the wages of politicians? Who cares? It really would not bother me if Brian Cowen was on 1 million per annum. It will make no difference to the recovery prospects of this country. Optics are exactly the same.

Isn't funny how everyone compares the Taoiseachs wages to that of David Cameron or Barrack Obama stating that we are only a tiny country in comparison? It seems the press have managed to have us all believe this country and it's population should be talked down to the floor. We're only a simple minded, somewhat dim and stupid population after all. Looking after us shouldn't be as difficult as a proper country and you shouldn't need to be paid as much surely?

Anyone who loves Ireland and it's people should not be bothered to compare High Level Government salaries to those of anywhere else IMHO.

pH

Fore Iron wrote: »

Surely the reduction in minimum wage is only that, in that it is not a pay cut per se. Someone earning 8.65 (or whatever it is) now will not suddenly be earning a euro less after the budget. Or am I missing something?

You're dead right, people being paid 8.65 an hour now, could possibly have their wages reduced to 7.65 (Ie it would be now legal to pay them that) but it doesn't necessarily mean that will happen, some employees may have contracts at 8.65, other employers might not even want to reduce this pay, or employees might simply decline a 7.65 an hour job and go work elsewhere.

Only 4% of the workforce work for minimum wage, if the plan is that Ireland's future and recovery are based on a large/significant minimum wage economy then we're all truly screwed.

Sir Oxman

Fore Iron wrote: »

As for the wages of politicians? Who cares? It really would not bother me if Brian Cowen was on 1 million per annum. It will make no difference to the recovery prospects of this country. Optics are exactly the same.

Isn't funny how everyone compares the Taoiseachs wages to that of David Cameron or Barrack Obama stating that we are only a tiny country in comparison? It seems the press have managed to have us all believe this country and it's population should be talked down to the floor. We're only a simple minded, somewhat dim and stupid population after all. Looking after us shouldn't be as difficult as a proper country and you shouldn't need to be paid as much surely?

Anyone who loves Ireland and it's people should not be bothered to compare High Level Government salaries to those of anywhere else IMHO .

That is utter, utter rubbish.

Fore Iron

gambiaman wrote: »

That is utter, utter rubbish.

Jaysus. Did you eat a crisp and a sharp bit stick in the roof of your mouth or something? I'm sure you're a nice fella or lassie, but it is simply my opinion. Sorry it doesn't agree with you.

I simply hate hearing people moan about bankers wages and CEO's wages and politicians wages, when they were exactly the same people who at the height of the "boom" were talking about these people earning large sums of money with a air of reverence and wishing they too could earn as much some day.

The idea that if all the politicians took large pay cuts that the rest of the population would unbegrudgedly do the same is utter tripe. So stop talking about Brian Cowerings wages and talk about what will ACTUALLY fix the predicament we find ourselves in.

That's all I was saying....

Sir Oxman

Fore Iron wrote: »

Jaysus. Did you eat a crisp and a sharp bit stick in the roof of your mouth or something? I'm sure you're a nice fella or lassie, but it is simply my opinion. Sorry it doesn't agree with you.

I simply hate hearing people moan about bankers wages and CEO's wages and politicians wages, when they were exactly the same people who at the height of the "boom" were talking about these people earning large sums of money with a air of reverence and wishing they too could earn as much some day.

The idea that if all the politicians took large pay cuts that the rest of the population would unbegrudgedly do the same is utter tripe. So stop talking about Brian Cowerings wages and talk about what will ACTUALLY fix the predicament we find ourselves in.

That's all I was saying....

A double utter was necessary.
And relax, this place is for agreeing/disagreeing with opinion - don't take it as a personal insult.

invinciblePRSTV

A 12.5% cut in the M/W is a ridiculously savage cut. It's completely out of porportion to the decline in cost of living, which is what it should have been based on.

It's absolute nonsense to suggest cutting the M/W alone will encourage new jobs to be created. As has been discussed here and elsewhere a 1000 times over, a cut in the M/W, in tandem with the money taken out of the economy elsewhere, will depress the economy even further, not stimulate it to recover.

As always, the lower rungs of society bare the brunt of government cuts. This savage cut is nothing but a bone thrown to the likes of ISME, who've been howling about the unfairness of it all (without a shred of evidence to back it up), just like the car dealers last year, and just like the Croke Park agreement, special interests who stomp their feet the most get what they want, and the working poor lose out.

It wasn't the M/W that caused the crash, and slashing it won't save the domestic economy, or save Irish business.

dRNk SAnTA

It is so fricken naive to believe that the minimum wage is the primary reason for a high cost of living in Ireland.

There is also the little issue of increase-only rent reviews, utility bills (among highest line rental charges, electricity prices, doubling of carbon tax), and over-protection in the professions (highest paid hospital consultants, expensive dentists, solicitors/barristers etc).

Through more regulation/competition/reform the government could tackle some of these issues.

However they cut minimum wage. It's the easiest, crudest and most cruel of the cuts imaginable. An Irish person on minimum wage working 40 hours a week will earn 16k a year. Christ, put yourself in that position, how are you supposed to live on that, anyone with a family would HAVE to go on the dole.

The real reason they're cutting minimum wage is because it's the rate that many higher paid jobs base their wages on. i.e. something like minimum wage x2 or minimum wage + 10 euro.

When the poorest in society got their puny wage increased, everybody higher up the chain insisted on increases too. By cutting the minumum wage the government is trying to get a reduction in those higher wages. Fine aim, but there are surely ways to achieve this without literally ****ing over the very poorest in society, who bother to get off their ass do work for a living.

Let's not forget, they will also be bringing minimum-wage level people into tax next, and then also adding 2% to the vat rate, simultaneously increasing the cost of living for everyone, another regressive tax.

I'm relatively conservative in my economic views but even I am appalled at this. The top tax rate didn't increase at all! Public sector workers have got themselves guaranteed employment, pensions and protection from anymore salary cuts or compulsory reductions. The old age pension won't be touched.

Anyone in Ireland who said over recent weeks that they would take pain as long as its fair should be horrified at the unequal treatment of groups that do not possess strong political sway.

Brussels Sprout

Cutting the minimum wage (and social welfare) whilst leaving public sector wages (for existing PS workers) untouched seems ridiculously unfair.

Clearly the government are trying to deflate their way back to competitiveness and are doing so by taking on the weakest people in society. If they are serious about everyone in the country 'sharing the pain' then state pensions and public sector wages (including those of the politicians) need to be cut as well.

Given that this government is in it's death throes I was hoping that Lenihan would have the balls to make some tough decisions but no, as per usual he's taken the path of least resistance.

ninty9er

IgnorantPaddy wrote: »

They can't even get basic economics right,i heard the budget and it is going to be a disaster for the next 30 years,even with the ****ing IMF!

If you know what's in the Budget you have a headstart on about 4 and a half million other Irish people.

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

A 12.5% cut in the M/W is a ridiculously savage cut. It's completely out of porportion to the decline in cost of living, which is what it should have been based on.

It was €7.65 at the top of the boom when prices were ridiculously high, surely we can manage on top of the boom income??

This measure is more aimed at protecting employment in the SME sector where wage costs are endangering the survival chances of small businesses.