Four Year Plan Impact on Education

rainbowtrout

Well, have just watched the two Brians there give their spiel and I'm having a look at the 4 year plan.

The key adjustments in the education sector include some one off measures as well as structural measures with significant medium-term impacts. The key adjustments are:

School Transport
Operational efficiencies and other savings measures in the school transport scheme

School Funding:

5% Reduction in all capitation grants, including grants for Adult Literacy, Community Education, School Completion Programme, Youthreach.

Education Fees:

Replace Student Services Charge with a flat higher education student contribution of €2,000, and introduce €200 charge for PLC students.

Student Support:

Savings in the student support scheme

Third Level:

5% cut in non-pay grant to Universities/IOTs etc.

NEPS:

Cap numbers at current level of 178

FAS/Training Allowances & similar Support Payments

Savings measures

Payroll savings

Reduce teacher numbers by a combination of measures


Supervision and substitution: 3rd class period under Croke Park Agreement & tighten measures in rules for scheme

10% reduction in salary for new entrants and all entrants to start on 1st point

The reduction in teacher numbers by a combination of measures is estimated to save €97.6 million in 2011.
I mentioned here a few weeks ago that I had heard on the grapevine that TY could possibly be scrapped. I estimate that this would cost 1400 jobs which equates to 60m in wages. I assume the pupil teacher ratio will go up as well as was mooted in the papers during the week by 0.5. I'm guessing this is where the rest of the savings would come from. It's not a good time to be getting into teaching.

First point on the scale is €30,904. If this is to be reduced by 10%, it will be €27,813 plus allowances. I assume these will also be hit by the 10% reduction.

freckly

Thats a huge cut to new entrants. 10% and having to start on scale 1. I think I started on scale 3. They will also be up against having to find a job. If S&S is tightened up and class sizes increase they wont have a hope! I hope they cut the dip numbers for next year and dont let people spend a fortune on a worthless piece of paper.

Does anybody know what happens to teachers who have started before now but took a year out. I did a few TWTs and went abroad earlier this year. I was planning to stay until June and come hope to look for some kind of hours in September. Will I have to go back to Scale 1 and be on the new conditions? Im still with the Teaching Council, but got a letter from the Department offerning me a P45. Any ideas?

freire

rainbowtrout wrote: »

10% reduction in salary for new entrants and all entrants to start on 1st point

First point on the scale is €30,904. If this is to be reduced by 10%, it will be €27,813 plus allowances. I assume these will also be hit by the 10% reduction.

I'm uncharacteristically stuck for words on this. It is almost unbelievable. If I heard right on the wireless, open to correction, the allowances are to be done away with also. If this is correct then a NQT can expect to work for about 400 quid a week.

Who is going to spend 4 to 5 years in college to work in a job which pays supermarket wages? I'm not denigrating supermarket workers but you know what I mean.

This is the surest message yet as to what those in power actually think of teachers and the educational profession as a whole.

There are all sorts of comparisons to be made but one is that a NQT can expect to get up and do a solid days grind for marginally more than s/he could expect to earn on the dole with rent allowance.

They talk about the knowledge economy, paying lip service to this lofty idea, when in actual fact they hardly value educators at all.

None of us got into this career to make our fortunes but in fairness, if you do a decent day's work you want paying for it.

People constantly bemoan the quality of teaching in our schools. These latest proposals are not likely to attract the brightest and best to the profession. I'm too infuriated to say any more.

niall3r

This may be an extremely stupid question, but I am a NQT with a maternity leave contract aug-april. This means I am employed by the Dept of Education. . . .will I be considered a new entrant when/if I get another job next year?

rainbowtrout

freckly wrote: »

Thats a huge cut to new entrants. 10% and having to start on scale 1. I think I started on scale 3. They will also be up against having to find a job. If S&S is tightened up and class sizes increase they wont have a hope! I hope they cut the dip numbers for next year and dont let people spend a fortune on a worthless piece of paper.

Does anybody know what happens to teachers who have started before now but took a year out. I did a few TWTs and went abroad earlier this year. I was planning to stay until June and come hope to look for some kind of hours in September. Will I have to go back to Scale 1 and be on the new conditions? Im still with the Teaching Council, but got a letter from the Department offerning me a P45. Any ideas?

The details probably won't be revealed until the budget, but my reading of it would be any new graduate that is taking up a teaching job for the first time. I'd imagine if you came back next September you would resume service from where you left off otherwise they would be saying your previous service counted for nothing.

freire wrote: »

I'm uncharacteristically stuck for words on this. It is almost unbelievable. If I heard right on the wireless, open to correction, the allowances are to be done away with also. If this is correct then a NQT can expect to work for about 400 quid a week.

Who is going to spend 4 to 5 years in college to work in a job which pays supermarket wages? I'm not denigrating supermarket workers but you know what I mean.

This is the surest message yet as to what those in power actually think of teachers and the educational profession as a whole.

There are all sorts of comparisons to be made but one is that a NQT can expect to get up and do a solid days grind for marginally more than s/he could expect to earn on the dole with rent allowance.

They talk about the knowledge economy, paying lip service to this lofty idea, when in actual fact they hardly value educators at all.

None of us got into this career to make our fortunes but in fairness, if you do a decent day's work you want paying for it.

People constantly bemoan the quality of teaching in our schools. These latest proposals are not likely to attract the brightest and best to the profession. I'm too infuriated to say any more.

I didn't see anything about the allowances, and didn't read anything about it in the NRP but that's not to say it won't happen. Also bearing in mind as is said by many experienced teachers on this forum NQTs rarely start on full hours...... the new minimum wage will give an annual income of €15900 so it might well be easier to work in a supermarket.

niall3r wrote: »

This may be an extremely stupid question, but I am a NQT with a maternity leave contract aug-april. This means I am employed by the Dept of Education. . . .will I be considered a new entrant when/if I get another job next year?

I wouldn't say so, are you paying pension levy? If so you are in the scheme and on point 3 of the scale I'd imagine. That's just my take on it though.

rainbowtrout

freckly wrote: »

I hope they cut the dip numbers for next year and dont let people spend a fortune on a worthless piece of paper.

This won't be happening anytime soon unfortunately. I was only reading an article about Hibernia yesterday which was going on about their success in training primary school teachers and how they now have approval to launch a similar course for the PGDE for second level...


http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/education/2010/1123/1224283929126.html

Hibernia is not expected to offer more than 50 places at first, but if the primary programme is anything to go by, they won’t have trouble filling them.....Now that Hetac has given its blessing to Hibernia’s HDip (and the Teaching Council is expected to follow suit), the online teacher-training model has its seal of approval.

irishharper

i'm training to be a secondary school teacher at the moment, just wondering if all NQT get the same rate of pay regardless of if youve completed masters degrees, postgrads etc on top of the b.a , or is this level one pay across the board??
really shocking to see the amount of cuts in education..

rainbowtrout

irishharper wrote: »

i'm training to be a secondary school teacher at the moment, just wondering if all NQT get the same rate of pay regardless of if youve completed masters degrees, postgrads etc on top of the b.a , or is this level one pay across the board??
really shocking to see the amount of cuts in education..

Currently NQTs start on point 3 of the scale and get an allowance for 1. degree or masters and 2. HDip/PGDE. There has been no mention of the allowances in the NRP so I assume they are staying. However NQTs will now start on Point 1 of the scale and that scale will be 10% lower than it is now.

Stark Reality: NQT Sept 2010starting on Point 3 = €33,041
NQT Sept 2011 starting on Point 1 = €27,813

Those figures do not include the allowances. And they are based on full hours which are few and far between for NQTs



Scale 2010 Scale 10% Reduction
1 30,904 27813.6
2 31,972 28774.8
3 33,041 29736.9
4 34,113 30701.7
5 35,775 32197.5
6 36,853 33167.7


Those are my figures, nothing official, so it looks like an NQT (assuming full hours) will have to work for 6 years before they earn the equivalent to what an NQT is starting on this year on Point 3.

jellybeans

niall3r wrote: »

This may be an extremely stupid question, but I am a NQT with a maternity leave contract aug-april. This means I am employed by the Dept of Education. . . .will I be considered a new entrant when/if I get another job next year?

I don't think so are you EPT?

rainbowtrout

jellybeans wrote: »

I don't think so are you EPT?

No he said he was doing a maternity leave.

Dionysus

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Currently NQTs start on point 3 of the scale and get an allowance for 1. degree or masters and 2. HDip/PGDE. There has been no mention of the allowances in the NRP so I assume they are staying. However NQTs will now start on Point 1 of the scale and that scale will be 10% lower than it is now.

Over on the News at One today Seán O Rourke was talking to Jack O Connor and he said that the extra money for qualifications is gone. I'll gladly accept correction on this. If it's true that's €7,376 per annum less in my pocket.

jellybeans

So what effect does today's announcement of the 4 year plan exactly have on us?? I am a teacher with the CDVEC and unfortunately for me I will never get a contract as I am job sharing with another teacher. I was wondering does this mean that I can loose my job??? The other teacher has no intention of coming back full time but can the principal cut me out even though I have been working there for 5 years now

rainbowtrout

Dionysus wrote: »

Over on the News at One today Seán O Rourke was talking to Jack O Connor and he said that the extra money for qualifications is gone. I'll gladly accept correction on this. If it's true that's €7,376 per annum less in my pocket.

I wonder if that's for NQTs or existing teachers, it said on the news that no change was made to the salaries of existing PS workers as it would contravene Croke Park.

I can't find it anywhere in the NRP and neither of the teaching unions have mentioned it on their websites.

However it does say:

The Plan provides for a further reduction in teacher payroll costs, from the school year 2012/13. In advance, the Department of Education and Skills will consult with the education partners and provide them with an opportunity to contribute to the process of identifying a range of measures that Government can consider. If alternative feasible measures to deliver these savings cannot be identified, appropriate increases in the classroom teacher allocation schedule will be introduced.

Pupil Teacher Ratio to go up again next year if we don't come up with more cost cutting measures?

maynooth_rules

Paul Gogarty of the greens had the gaul to come on TV after the 4 year plan and say that the Greens achieved their main aim of protecting Education. I was 90% sure of moving to England in January before today, I am looking at flights over tonight and am 100% sure that I am leaving. Depressing after studying for four years here, and having four years experience. I cant imagine ill come back to Ireland to teach should I leave:(

E.T.

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Paul Gogarty of the greens had the gaul to come on TV after the 4 year plan and say that the Greens achieved their main aim of protecting Education. I was 90% sure of moving to England in January before today, I am looking at flights over tonight and am 100% sure that I am leaving. Depressing after studying for four years here, and having four years experience. I cant imagine ill come back to Ireland to teach should I leave:(

I can't believe he said that! I did vote for the Greens last time, with their promises on education being a big factor for me. I thought they were bad in the last few years, but that's beyond cheek - that's actually insulting to come out and say they've protected education.

freire

If the allowances are gone I'm gone. I literally couldn't afford to work where I'm working. I don't know what I'll do.

These measures are completely devaluing our profession. As much as I love my job I can't see myself going in to my current place of work and working as hard as I do, for the money an increased income tax, levy, elimination of allowances, would leave me. Literally not worth it.

maynooth_rules

E.T. wrote: »

I can't believe he said that! I did vote for the Greens last time, with their promises on education being a big factor for me. I thought they were bad in the last few years, but that's beyond cheek - that's actually insulting to come out and say they've protected education.

I voted Green too, as I considered myself to share their philosophy. Never again. Mary White didnt even return my email when I questioned her about the government bringing in legislation to allow unqualified teachers to teach. They have let down teachers so much. We know what to expect from FF, but the Greens have so let us down

freire

Apparently (it was reported by RTE Education correspondent) resource and support teaching to Traveller kids is to be withdrawn immediately with a gradual phasing out of language support for 'international students'.

I could fking scream.

dory

Tomorrow was going to be the day I finally got around to filling in my PGDE application.

freire

dory wrote: »

Tomorrow was going to be the day I finally got around to filling in my PGDE application.

It could be worse, you could have filled it in 12 months ago. How sick are the current crop of PGDE students today?

dory

Ok, very true. It's not like we ever thought the prospects were bring for us anyway.

Euro_Kraut

I hope current teachers will show solitary by opposing this move and offering to spread the pay cut across the profession rather than allowing young teachers to take up the slack.

Its not fair that a teacher employed in 2011 will be paid 17% less for their entire life than a teacher employed in 2010. Equal work for equal pay anyone?

gaeilgebeo

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I hope current teachers will show solitary by opposing this move and offering to spread the pay cut across the profession rather than allowing young teachers to take up the slack.

Its not fair that a teacher employed in 2011 will be paid 17% less for their entire life than a teacher employed in 2010. Equal work for equal pay anyone?

Surely, you don't blame teachers already in the profession for these cuts announced today?
What about teachers struggling to pay HUGE mortgages and raise a young family and who may be the sole bread winner in a family? We've already taken a massive cut. You want them to offer another pay cut?
I'm all for solidarity but I can't see that happening nor would I agree to it.

delta_bravo

I read some of the recovery plan.

What I read from it:

• Teachers to work 1 hour extra per week doing "various school activities"
• Reduction in teacher numbers
• 10% reduction in salary for new entrants and all entrants to start on 1st point

No mention of the removal of allowances thankfully.

I dont mind the extra hour but if the allowances were removed it would be an absolute insult to the profession.

freire

I think it's beholden upon us to resist these latest measures for a number of reasons. Most selfishly being that it may be us established teachers taking a 10% cut next.

This is just testing the water.

freire

delta_bravo wrote: »

I read some of the recovery plan.

What I read from it:

• Teachers to work 1 hour extra per week doing "various school activities"

I do at least 3-4 hours of 'stuff' completely separate to the curriculum, as do many teachers. I think that 1 hour extra thing is the most insulting of all.

irishharper

Thanks for the reply, hard to believe education has been cut as much as it has today,ive a year to go before my off campus year hoping to get a teaching placement anything really to get the relevant experience etc,sounds like that whole process could get a lot tougher too,with regards schools taking on trainees?

Euro_Kraut

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Surely, you don't blame teachers already in the profession for these cuts announced today?
What about teachers struggling to pay HUGE mortgages and raise a young family and who may be the sole bread winner in a family? We've already taken a massive cut. You want them to offer another pay cut?
I'm all for solidarity but I can't see that happening nor would I agree to it.

No you are not. If you genuinely were you would be advocating that new teachers get paid them same as existing teachers. In the past that was what Union membership was all about. Today is a lobby group to try get a much money as possible for the current members of the club.

Its not fair that young teacher will be effectively subsiding their older colleagues in the years to come. The teaching Unions should be constructive about this and offer a that the required payroll savings be made equally to all teachers. Of course you are right - it won't happen. Teachers, like everyone else on our society, today are been turned in a group of 'mé feiners'

gaeilgebeo

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

No you are not. If you genuinely were you would be advocating that new teachers get paid them same as existing teachers. In the past that was what Union membership was all about. Today is a lobby group to try get a much money as possible for the current members of the club.

Its not fair that young teacher will be effectively subsiding their older colleagues in the years to come. The teaching Unions should be constructive about this and offer a that the required payroll savings be made equally to all teachers. Of course you are right - it won't happen. Teachers, like everyone else on our society, today are been turned in a group of 'mé feiners'

Well if that's your attitude towards teachers then you are not very much for solidarity yourself.

Miss Lockhart

Is this 10% pay cut and move down the pay scale likely to affect teachers already on PRPT contracts when (if) they are being offered a new PRPT contract next year?

Euro_Kraut

freire wrote: »

[/LIST]
I do at least 3-4 hours of 'stuff' completely separate to the curriculum, as do many teachers. I think that 1 hour extra thing is the most insulting of all.

It's nothing new. Its just part of the Croke Park agreement reiterated.

Section 3.2 "The provision, with effect from the start of the 2010/11 school year, of an additional hour per week to be available to facilitate, at the discretion of management, school planning, continuous professional development, induction, substitution and supervision (including supervision immediately before and after school times). This list is not exhaustive."

Page 23 of this document

Depending on your Union you may already have voted for this. Having said that the Govt have effectively thrown the agreement out the window. The spirit if not the letter has been broken. Pensions have been cut and new entrants hit. Allowance will probably be hit in the budget too.

Euro_Kraut

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

Well if that's your attitude towards teachers then you are not very much for solidarity yourself.

Err.. I am a teacher.

Please don't confuse wanting fairness for all teachers with me not liking teachers. I would love if there were no cuts at all, but since there will be I would like them to be as equitable as possible. This arrangement is not.

Fizzical

Can anyone find the contribution of the politicians to the savings?

Any reduction in salary for An Taoiseach, expenses eliminated, cars and drivers gone?

I cant find any mention of it...

freire

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

It's nothing new. Its just part of the Croke Park agreement reiterated.

Section 3.2 "The provision, with effect from the start of the 2010/11 school year, of an additional hour per week to be available to facilitate, at the discretion of management, school planning, continuous professional development, induction, substitution and supervision (including supervision immediately before and after school times). This list is not exhaustive."

Page 23 of this document

Depending on your Union you may already have voted for this. Having said that the Govt have effectively thrown the agreement out the window. The spirit if not the letter has been broken. Pensions have been cut and new entrants hit. Allowance will probably be hit in the budget too.

I'm sure you're not patronising me. I am aware of the provisions as set out in the Croker agreement.

It's the one hour extra per week stipulation that sticks in my craw the most. Like I say, I give that one hour and then some, as do many others.

My problem with it is that it risks eroding the 'good will' of teachers prepared to give this extra, unpaid yet very necessary service.

Who then does the choir, panto, chess club, film club, coaches school teams and all the other things that make a school a fun(ish) place to be?

Edit: I'd forgotten the less fun duties such as supervising detention, lunchtime and after school. I mean 2 of those a week is 1h 20.

dillo2k10

I didnt read the whole tread.

I would just like to say that Im screwed. Im doing my leaving cert this year and am planning to go into teaching. 5 years in University then when I come out I wont get a job a long time, when I do I will be on crappy pay (I think that I would actually be better of on the Current welfare as I wouldn't have to pay rent and health care etc) with a class of about 30-35 Junior and leaving cert students.

Things may get a little better (maby worse) by 2016 but they wont get that much better!!

gaeilgebeo

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

No you are not. If you genuinely were you would be advocating that new teachers get paid them same as existing teachers. In the past that was what Union membership was all about. Today is a lobby group to try get a much money as possible for the current members of the club.

Its not fair that young teacher will be effectively subsiding their older colleagues in the years to come. The teaching Unions should be constructive about this and offer a that the required payroll savings be made equally to all teachers. Of course you are right - it won't happen. Teachers, like everyone else on our society, today are been turned in a group of 'mé feiners'

You have a poor attitude towards your colleagues. Just because teachers have fought for better pay and conditions does not make them "mé féiners".
It is not our fault that the government have introduced the 10% cut today.
We have already taken a major cut.
We are working under increasingly difficult conditions.
I can't see any teacher offering a cut for teachers coming into the profession.
This does not make me a "mé féiner".
I am extremely worried about making ends meet as it is.

Dionysus

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Paul Gogarty of the greens had the gaul to come on TV after the 4 year plan and say that the Greens achieved their main aim of protecting Education. I was 90% sure of moving to England in January before today, I am looking at flights over tonight and am 100% sure that I am leaving. Depressing after studying for four years here, and having four years experience. I cant imagine ill come back to Ireland to teach should I leave:(

I just dropped over to Paul Gogarty's Boards.ie profile and proposed that he drop in to defend his views here.

Euro_Kraut

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

[/B]You have a poor attitude towards your colleagues.

I am the one who is bothered that young teachers will be paid significantly less than their colleagues. That's a positive thing. I am disappointed that you see that as a poor attitude. My girlfreind is a teacher, my mother is a teacher. My gripe is with the Unions and those who run it. The movement (like the country) has lost its way over the years and became fixated on the issue of pay.

Just because teachers have fought for better pay and conditions does not make them "mé féiners".

I agree to an extent. Expect that the Unions interest was purely in existing teachers pay and not future teachers.

It is not our fault that the government have introduced the 10% cut today.

I agree and have never said otherwise.

We have already taken a major cut.

I agree and have never said otherwise.

We are working under increasingly difficult conditions.

Again I agree completely.

I can't see any teacher offering a cut for teachers coming into the profession.

I know. But if teachers really cared about equality in the work place that offer would be made

This does not make me a "mé féiner".

I'm afraid it does in my book. Prehaps we are at crossed wires on our definition of a "mé féiner". How would you define it?

I am extremely worried about making ends meet as it is.

I'm sorry to hear that. Its going to be tough for everyone over the coming years. As I said, ideally there would be no cut at all. But there has to be and I would like it to be as equitable as possible. I don't think that's an unreasonable position.

rainbowtrout

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I hope current teachers will show solitary by opposing this move and offering to spread the pay cut across the profession rather than allowing young teachers to take up the slack.

Its not fair that a teacher employed in 2011 will be paid 17% less for their entire life than a teacher employed in 2010. Equal work for equal pay anyone?

It's not fair, but teachers are not going to take another pay cut. No one group in the PS are going to take a pay cut when the rest aren't.

delta_bravo wrote: »

I read some of the recovery plan.

What I read from it:


Teachers to work 1 hour extra per week doing "various school activities"

That was agreed in Croke Park Agreement. They are just going to enforce it.

irishharper wrote: »

Thanks for the reply, hard to believe education has been cut as much as it has today,ive a year to go before my off campus year hoping to get a teaching placement anything really to get the relevant experience etc,sounds like that whole process could get a lot tougher too,with regards schools taking on trainees?

If you are doing a teacher training course and teaching practice is a part of the course, it won't be a problem, you don't get paid for it anyway. If you were just looking for hours for experience to apply for the PGDE you can probably forget it.

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

Is this 10% pay cut and move down the pay scale likely to affect teachers already on PRPT contracts when (if) they are being offered a new PRPT contract next year?

No, as the agreement reads, it's any new entrants to the public service. If you are already teaching you will continue to be paid on the current pay scale.

Fizzical wrote: »

Can anyone find the contribution of the politicians to the savings?

Any reduction in salary for An Taoiseach, expenses eliminated, cars and drivers gone?

I cant find any mention of it...

Nope. None. But they did all vote (with no objections from either side of the house) to give themselves a raise in their expenses a fortnight ago. Of course expenses aren't taxed or subject to the pension levy. Call me cynical, but I'd call that a pay rise.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/john-drennan/john-drennan-divided-dail-unites-to-give-itself-a-pay-rise-2410792.html

gaeilgebeo wrote: »

[/B]You have a poor attitude towards your colleagues. Just because teachers have fought for better pay and conditions does not make them "mé féiners".
It is not our fault that the government have introduced the 10% cut today.
We have already taken a major cut.
We are working under increasingly difficult conditions.
I can't see any teacher offering a cut for teachers coming into the profession.
This does not make me a "mé féiner".
I am extremely worried about making ends meet as it is.

I agree, and with more cuts coming in the shape of cuts to Traveller children/language support etc and probably a rise in pupil teacher ratio, teaching is not going to get any easier. Not to mind the 1200 teaching jobs that are going according to the news this evening.

Euro_Kraut

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It's not fair, but teachers are not going to take another pay cut. No one group in the PS are going to take a pay cut when the rest aren't.

So if the other Unions agreed to the pay cut would you be in favour of it?

rainbowtrout

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

So if the other Unions agreed to the pay cut would you be in favour of it?

No probably not, and you might call me selfish as well, but you know the reality at the moment is people are going to look after themselves, it's human nature and it doesn't matter if they are teachers, bankers or supermarket workers.

We've lost 5 teachers from our staff in the last few years. I don't honestly think people sat there and thought, 'Yes, I'll take a 10% hit in my wage so Mary or John can keep their job', they're thinking 'I'm glad I didn't get another pay cut, I can still afford to pay the mortgage' or 'I'm glad I didn't lose my job, I don't know how I'd make ends meet if I had'

I had a good read of the NRP earlier today, and like most people I will be paying more tax come January due to the widening of the tax bands and increase in income tax rates. Rural Renewal Allowance and Mortgage Interest Relief are two allowance I currently receive and both are due to be phased out in the plan. Tax relief on pensions too. So I'm currently trying to figure out how I will fare out in January; I'm just glad currently that I don't have to add a pay cut into those calculations for now.

It's not about being a me feiner for most people, it's about trying to keep their heads above water for the most part.

implausible

Correct me if I'm wrong but shouldn't any union's first loyalty be to its present members?

My mortgage, bills and standard of living is based on my salary. A huge drop in it would be catastrophic for me and those who depend on me. A student coming out of college (and excuse me for lapsing into stereotypes here)is used to living on a very small amount of money, so his/her wages will be a huge jump up, no matter how small it may seem in comparison to others' wages. I started teaching during the benchmarking strikes and couldn't understand why teachers were striking. I went from living off £80 per week to £300 and couldn't understand what they were striking about!!!!

If you're going into teaching for the money, then, yes, this news will come as a blow.

Rosita

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I agree to an extent. Expect that the Unions interest was purely in existing teachers pay and not future teachers.

This is a strange criticism of the unions because until today they would have thought that in defending existing teachers' pay they were also defending future teachers' pay as there was no distinction. In those circumstances what do you think they should have done?

awny

I am one of the people currently completing my PGDE at the moment and I am upset at what has happened today. I have to agree with Euro Kraut, it is unfair, that because of the year I am completing my Dip, Im now approx down 17% on my wages. GaeilgeBeo I understand that you have small children etc but if the shoe was on the other foot, you would want existing teachers to stand up for you. There are many people on my course that have mortgages, children etc why should they be paid any less than you for doing the same job because they did the Dip a year later? All we are asking for, is for existing teachers to join with us and show solidarity. I watched Jack O' Connor on RTE today and all he had to say was that, it was outside the terms of the Croke Park Agreement.

Euro_Kraut

Rosita wrote: »

This is a strange criticism of the unions ...

Yeah it is on reflection. I would stand by the other criticism though of Unions (not just teachers) being overly focused on pay to the point where 'defending interests' has become little more than defending pay.

The fact that this pay disparity is now arising should prompt a response from the Unions if they genuinely believe in equal pay. If the Govt announced today that women would have their pay cut I would hope that male teachers would stand up against it and not say 'Great! My pay is not being cut - to hell with those women'

I see a similar principle here - but maybe I'm way off.

I realize that I am not making myself very popular here by proposing a pay cut for a greater good. However I think its useful to challenge the orthodoxy and had we done more of that during the boom we might not be in the awful situation we are in today.

implausible

awny wrote: »

I am one of the people currently completing my PGDE at the moment and I am upset at what has happened today. I have to agree with Euro Kraut, it is unfair, that because of the year I am completing my Dip, Im now approx down 17% on my wages.

How can you be down 17% on wages you haven't earned yet?

implausible

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

The fact that this pay disparity is now arising should prompt a response from the Unions if they genuinely believe in equal pay. If the Govt announced today that women would have their pay cut I would hope that male teachers would stand up against it and not say 'Great! My pay is not being cut - to hell with those women'

I see a similar principle here - but maybe I'm way off.

You are because you're not comparing like with like there. Your example is of two sets of employees, equal in experience, currently doing the same work.

The increment system means that there has always been a disparity between newer and older employees. This cut simply proposes that the disparity be greater for entrants next year.

awny

Instead of starting on point 3 of the scale , Im starting on point 1. 10% being taken off point one. By that comment, I presume you think its OK because I havent starting teaching yet? Should I not get the same as somebody with the same qualifications as me doing the same job? Below is a quote from RainbowTrout on the first page on this thread.

rainbowtrout
Registered User


Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Roscommon
Posts: 2,459
Adverts | Friends


Quote:
Originally Posted by irishharper
i'm training to be a secondary school teacher at the moment, just wondering if all NQT get the same rate of pay regardless of if youve completed masters degrees, postgrads etc on top of the b.a , or is this level one pay across the board??
really shocking to see the amount of cuts in education..

Currently NQTs start on point 3 of the scale and get an allowance for 1. degree or masters and 2. HDip/PGDE. There has been no mention of the allowances in the NRP so I assume they are staying. However NQTs will now start on Point 1 of the scale and that scale will be 10% lower than it is now.

Stark Reality: NQT Sept 2010starting on Point 3 = €33,041
NQT Sept 2011 starting on Point 1 = €27,813

Those figures do not include the allowances. And they are based on full hours which are few and far between for NQTs



Scale 2010 Scale 10% Reduction
1 30,904 27813.6
2 31,972 28774.8
3 33,041 29736.9
4 34,113 30701.7
5 35,775 32197.5
6 36,853 33167.7


Those are my figures, nothing official, so it looks like an NQT (assuming full hours) will have to work for 6 years before they earn the equivalent to what an NQT is starting on this year on Point 3.
rainbowtrout
Registered User


Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Roscommon
Posts: 2,459
Adverts | Friends


Quote:
Originally Posted by irishharper
i'm training to be a secondary school teacher at the moment, just wondering if all NQT get the same rate of pay regardless of if youve completed masters degrees, postgrads etc on top of the b.a , or is this level one pay across the board??
really shocking to see the amount of cuts in education..

Currently NQTs start on point 3 of the scale and get an allowance for 1. degree or masters and 2. HDip/PGDE. There has been no mention of the allowances in the NRP so I assume they are staying. However NQTs will now start on Point 1 of the scale and that scale will be 10% lower than it is now.

Stark Reality: NQT Sept 2010starting on Point 3 = €33,041
NQT Sept 2011 starting on Point 1 = €27,813

Those figures do not include the allowances. And they are based on full hours which are few and far between for NQTs



Scale 2010 Scale 10% Reduction
1 30,904 27813.6
2 31,972 28774.8
3 33,041 29736.9
4 34,113 30701.7
5 35,775 32197.5
6 36,853 33167.7


Those are my figures, nothing official, so it looks like an NQT (assuming full hours) will have to work for 6 years before they earn the equivalent to what an NQT is starting on this year on Point 3.
rainbowtrout
Registered User


Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Roscommon
Posts: 2,459
Adverts | Friends


Quote:
Originally Posted by irishharper
i'm training to be a secondary school teacher at the moment, just wondering if all NQT get the same rate of pay regardless of if youve completed masters degrees, postgrads etc on top of the b.a , or is this level one pay across the board??
really shocking to see the amount of cuts in education..

Currently NQTs start on point 3 of the scale and get an allowance for 1. degree or masters and 2. HDip/PGDE. There has been no mention of the allowances in the NRP so I assume they are staying. However NQTs will now start on Point 1 of the scale and that scale will be 10% lower than it is now.

Stark Reality: NQT Sept 2010starting on Point 3 = €33,041
NQT Sept 2011 starting on Point 1 = €27,813

Those figures do not include the allowances. And they are based on full hours which are few and far between for NQTs



Scale 2010 Scale 10% Reduction
1 30,904 27813.6
2 31,972 28774.8
3 33,041 29736.9
4 34,113 30701.7
5 35,775 32197.5
6 36,853 33167.7


Those are my figures, nothing official, so it looks like an NQT (assuming full hours) will have to work for 6 years before they earn the equivalent to what an NQT is starting on this year on Point 3.
"Currently NQTs start on point 3 of the scale and get an allowance for 1. degree or masters and 2. HDip/PGDE. There has been no mention of the allowances in the NRP so I assume they are staying. However NQTs will now start on Point 1 of the scale and that scale will be 10% lower than it is now.

Stark Reality: NQT Sept 2010starting on Point 3 = €33,041
NQT Sept 2011 starting on Point 1 = €27,813

Those figures do not include the allowances. And they are based on full hours which are few and far between for NQTs



Scale 2010 Scale 10% Reduction
1 30,904 27813.6
2 31,972 28774.8
3 33,041 29736.9
4 34,113 30701.7
5 35,775 32197.5
6 36,853 33167.7


Those are my figures, nothing official, so it looks like an NQT (assuming full hours) will have to work for 6 years before they earn the equivalent to what an NQT is starting on this year on Point 3. "

That Maths equate it to be approx 16%. Apologies.

awny

deemark wrote: »

You are because you're not comparing like with like there. Your example is of two sets of employees, equal in experience, currently doing the same work.

The increment system means that there has always been a disparity between newer and older employees. This cut simply proposes that the disparity be greater for entrants next year.

Deemark, although you are right and that there has been disparity between never and older. There has NEVER been a difference of 16% in salary between teachers who started within a year apart from each other.

Rosita

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

Yeah it is on reflection. I would stand by the other criticism though of Unions (not just teachers) being overly focused on pay to the point where 'defending interests' has become little more than defending pay.

The fact that this pay disparity is now arising should prompt a response from the Unions if they genuinely believe in equal pay. If the Govt announced today that women would have their pay cut I would hope that male teachers would stand up against it and not say 'Great! My pay is not being cut - to hell with those women'

I see a similar principle here - but maybe I'm way off.

I realize that I am not making myself very popular here by proposing a pay cut for a greater good. However I think its useful to challenge the orthodoxy and had we done more of that during the boom we might not be in the awful situation we are in today.

"'defending interests' has become little more than defending pay." - This is hardly revolutionary is it? The raison d'etre of unions is to defend the interests of their members. In teaching this has involved arguing on class sizes, school management issues etc. But let's be honest, defending pay is a staple of any union. Not quite sure what you expect.

No doubt the union will not be happy with the idea that there will now be essentially two grades of teacher based on salary. But no rational person in an organisation charged with defending members' interests would suggest that the way around this is to recommend a 10 per cent drop in salary for existing teachers in order to achieve some kind of abstract solidarity with others. If anything, any such campaign - if it were feasible - would be looking to bring the ones on a lower salary up to the level of others.

Of course you can wallow in self-serving nonsense about challenging orthodoxies and being the brave whistle-blower in the teaching profession who really understands the needs of the nation unhlike the rest of them who got us into this mess, knowing that in practice you'll probably never be called upon to make the decision - it it happens you'll have no choice. But at least be sensible enough to realise that there is a real world out there where people think differently and you are not necessarily superior to them.

rainbowtrout

awny wrote: »

That Maths equate it to be approx 16%. Apologies.

Press the Quote button in the bottom right hand corner of the post to quote.

The 16% you give is because salaries will now start on Point 1 and not on Point 3.