Are the Irish Left as right as will we go?

The Waltzing Consumer

I always thought that in times of recession and uncertainty, right-wing groups prey on the fear of the public and use this as a marketing tool for their success.

In the USA, we see the Tea Party as a lunatic fringe group whipping up socialist fears around health care, welfare and the current administration.

In Britain, we see the BNP and anti-European groups preying on peoples fear of immigrants, integration and jobs.

Britain and the US are two countries closely linked to Ireland, yet the most similar parties to these groups in Ireland, in my view, are the left wing parties. People will call the PDs and FG right-wing, but they have very little similarities to these fringe groups.

When I read their literature or talk to people from Eirigi or SWP or SP, they seem startling similar to the right-wing groups often mocked and parodied in media, using the same tactics, rhetoric and propaganda methods.

So simple question, do you think the leftist groups in Ireland use similar methods to right-wing groups, and, do you think that these groups will be as right as Irish parties go?

Arfan

What most people don't realise is the political spectrum is a circle. You start at Center and no matter which way you go you end up in the same place.

28064212

Eh, right-wing refers to where their policies lie, not just how far they are from the center. PDs and (to a lesser extent) FG are most definitely on the right. "On the right" does not equal fringe extremists. Eirigí and the Tea Party are both on the fringe, but they are on opposite sides of the political spectrum.

If you're asking are Eirigí/Youth Defence/SWP etc as extreme as they'll come in Ireland, then probably, but that doesn't mean that we won't have an equally extreme party on the right (whatever happened to the Irish Nationalist Party?)

28064212

Arfan wrote: »

What most people don't realise is the political spectrum is a circle. You start at Center and no matter which way you go you end up in the same place.

Really? So an authoritarian country where everything is done by and everybody works for the state is the same as an anarchic country with no government at all and everything is privatised?

Arfan

28064212 wrote: »

Really? So an authoritarian country where everything is done by and everybody works for the state is the same as an anarchic country with no government at all and everything is privatised?

I'm afraid I couldn't comment since the latter doesn't exist.

Cool Mo D

It depends. Left and right in Ireland are very mixed up.

Traditional right wing politics aspire to:
Law and Order.
One "True" National Identity - based blood links to a glorious past.
Distrust of foreigners/outsiders
Nationalism, and territorial gain.
Traditional morality.
Deference to authority.
Economic policies that preserve the wealth of those that currently hold it.
Social hierarchies.

Traditional left wing politics aspire to:
An egalitarian society - in income and social rights creating this if necessary by taking from the wealthy.
Tightly controlling industry, finance, and promoting government intervention in economic choices.
Income equality throughout society.
Secularisation, and equal rights for women and minorities.
Opposition to Nationalism and Imperialism - global unity of workers.
Society over the individual.

Obviously, these positions are a caricature of left/right views, but you can see that left wing parties in Ireland wrap the flag around themselves pretty tightly in general, and that has squeezed out a lot of potential right wing movements.

28064212

Arfan wrote: »

I'm afraid I couldn't comment since the latter doesn't exist.

The former doesn't exist either. And "doesn't" isn't the same as "couldn't". So hypothetically, do you think an authoritarian country where everything is done by and everybody works for the state is the same as an anarchic country with no government at all and everything is privatised?

LordSutch

Are the Irish Left as right as will we go?

Can you please translate the above^

Arfan

28064212 wrote: »

The former doesn't exist either. And "doesn't" isn't the same as "couldn't". So hypothetically, do you think an authoritarian country where everything is done by and everybody works for the state is the same as an anarchic country with no government at all and everything is privatised?

Hypothetically? Yes they're the same.

28064212

Arfan wrote: »

Hypothetically? Yes they're the same.

In what sense are they the same? One has no laws (and, consequently, no protections), the other has no freedoms. They are fundamentally opposing, incompatible, contradictory systems. How are they the same?

Arfan

28064212 wrote: »

In what sense are they the same? One has no laws (and, consequently, no protections), the other has no freedoms. They are fundamentally opposing, incompatible, contradictory systems. How are they the same?

Why are they different in freedoms? You said everything was privatised. Therefore whoever has the most power will dictate terms.

28064212

Arfan wrote: »

Why are they different in freedoms? You said everything was privatised. Therefore whoever has the most power will dictate terms.

Until someone with a bigger stick comes along. And how is that private company going to keep their power when all of their human capital has just upped and left for their competitor? Or just stopped working altogether?

You're saying that the extreme right and left societies are identical because in a right-wing society, one private company can become a de facto government. Except that either won't happen, or if it does happen, can be overturned within the bounds of the society.

Arfan

28064212 wrote: »

Until someone with a bigger stick comes along. And how is that private company going to keep their power when all of their human capital has just upped and left for their competitor? Or just stopped working altogether?

You're saying that the extreme right and left societies are identical because in a right-wing society, one private company can become a de facto government. Except that either won't happen, or if it does happen, can be overturned within the bounds of the society.

I suppose that's what I'm saying, I think I'm looking more at what I see as the end result. I don't see how governments have any special immunities over a single person or a company or any other organization. By the same reasoning any political unit who decides the policy of a country is a government. This is why I don't believe an anarchic country exists.

And I've really spun off from my original comment that right-wing and left-wing end up meeting each other coming the other way. Sorry, I'll stop.

Fussgangerzone

As a socialist, I disagree.

The tea party movement campaigns on what most people consider groundless fears.

If the Socialist Party have one fear it's that we all be subjugated to the banks and private interests, that the infrastructure of the state suffers for this, and we lose democratic control of our state to non-democratic foreign interference, whose goal is not human welfare but the service of their own member-states financial interests.

I'd say that particular hen has come home to roost.

You may disagree with our solutions, but the problem we're highlighting is very real indeed.