Heavy handed Gardai

Forcefield

Has anyone noticed the heavy handedness of the gardai recently?
Since when has it been ok to engage protestors with Batons as we saw on yesterdays news with Sinn Feins protest outside the dail.

I'm not a big Sinn Fein fan and yes they did go through the gates (which were open anyway), but does that warrant a baton attack from a Garda.

If there ever was a day when the people of this country decided to go on mass protest and get rid of the crooks in the dail, at least they would know that they need plenty of padding for the beatings!!

hobochris

Surely breaching the gates of Leinster house like that constitutes an attack on the state, therefore what the Garda did(I assume you are referring to the motorcycle garda) was minor in comparison.

Notice how the Army were out keeping an eye on things(the officer flanked by soldiers), its not something that would happen for most protests.

DubiousV

Well polite invitations to leave seemed not to have done the job, so an escalation would seem to be quite a natural progression. As for the gates being open Aengus O Snodaigh said on the radio last night that they "just pushed the gates and they opened". So the question becomes if someone pushed your window open at night and entered your house what would YOU do? Remember you can't call the Gardai and risk them using batons on the intruder!

Uriel.

Forcefield wrote: »

Has anyone noticed the heavy handedness of the gardai recently?
Since when has it been ok to engage protestors with Batons as we saw on yesterdays news with Sinn Feins protest outside the dail.

I'm not a big Sinn Fein fan and yes they did go through the gates (which were open anyway), but does that warrant a baton attack from a Garda.

If there ever was a day when the people of this country decided to go on mass protest and get rid of the crooks in the dail, at least they would know that they need plenty of padding for the beatings!!

To be fair, it appeared to me to be only one Garda - the Traffic Corps Motorcyclist. The other Gardai on scene seemed to handle the matter with level heads. However, I do agree that this was a very over the top reaction from the Garda in question.

I was also not impressed by their handling of the individual who stood in front of (i think) Mary Hanafin's Ministerial Car on Sunday night. The man, if memory serves me right looked to be middle aged (45+). The way they threw him to the ground was completely uncalled for. He could have been moved out of the way without undertaking the take down maneuver that was performed on him. They were luck not to have broke his hip/arm or cracked his skull.

danbohan

hobochris wrote: »

Surely breaching the gates of Leinster house like that constitutes an attack on the state, therefore what the Garda(I assume you are referring to the motorcycle garda) was minor in comparison.

Notice how the Army were out keeping an eye on things(the officer flanked by soldiers), its not something that would happen for most protests.

the real attack on the state has been perpetuated by the individuals inside leinster house not the ones trying to break in

nesf

If a Garda orders you to move, which he/she has a legal right to, and you refuse it is perfectly acceptable to me that they pick you up and move you forcibly. They shouldn't smash your head in or anything but for instance those protestors had absolutely no genuine right to be on the grounds of Leinster House and should not have entered.

MagicSean

Uriel. wrote: »

What in God's name has your post got to do with the topic of the thread?

Jeez is it alright for Gards to craic open heads just because someone is a member of a particular political party?

What a joke of a post.

Was someones head cracked open?

Colm R

Its a difficult situation, and its only going to get worse. Nobody wants to see this kind of thing happening, but I think we have to remember a few things.

Gardai are civil servants too. They will also suffer in the cuts.

Gardai are under orders to keep the peace.

Protestors have to understand that any attempts to forcefully occupy or damage public or private property will be met with force. There is no choice in this matter.

Dublin (and the other cities and towns) are still trading. Yes things have changed, but business (public and private) still needs to continue.

I read over the weekend that the unions are worried about their protests being hijacked and hence they are hiring in stwerards to help keep some order. I'm guessing the Unions will work with the Gardai in order to make their protest as effective as possible. I think other groups such as Sinn Fein should do so as well.

For the first time in my life, I probably will join a protest. But I will walk away at the first sign of trouble.

Uriel.

k_mac wrote: »

Was someones head cracked open?

Are you being pedantic or just acting the idiot?

nesf

Uriel. wrote: »

Are you being pedantic or just acting the idiot?

Less of the idiot stuff please.

Uriel.

nesf wrote: »

Less of the idiot stuff please.

I think it is a fair point to be honest. What did the post I quoted serve to achieve?

r3nu4l

Given the history of Sinn Féin and it's past failure to recognise the Irish Governmental system as the true Government of Ireland, Sinn Féin breaking through the gates of Leinster House brings about echoes of the Republic's troubled birth.

It's far more serious in my mind than some random protesters doing it. It was also a bad move by Sinn Féin imo as it just brings back memories of what the party stands for/stood for (depending on your opinion)...subversion of the State. We should remember that some members of Sinn Féin were also at one time members of the IRA and were members of active service units (ASUs) or supported ASUs in their activities. Again, this shows that Sinn Féin are a 'lawless' party and believe that they still believe in overthrowing the Government to achieve their means, rather than using the democratic process. Basically Sinn Féin's actions yesterday gave the truth to their lie.

So with all that in mind, I think that the Garda was right to draw his baton. According to the papers, the army corporal also drew his baton because he feared for his safety.

delta_bravo

What do you think would have happened in Westminster if this happened?

It was a big oversight to not man the gate or have it locked but as soon as they entered the grounds they posed a fairly serious threat. The Military Police are on the grounds for a reason.

I do think that the Gardai in the incident with the lone man were unecessarily heavy handed as 2 Gardai should have been able to cuff him without tackling him to the ground.

MagicSean

Uriel. wrote: »

Are you being pedantic or just acting the idiot?

I was asking a question. I thought some people had been struck on the legs but you claimed there was people struck on the head. They are two different levels of force.

hobochris

delta_bravo wrote: »

I do think that the Gardai in the incident with the lone man were unecessarily heavy handed as 2 Gardai should have been able to cuff him without tackling him to the ground.

From what I have herd from someone in AGS is that the RTE footage was carefully edited so you do not see the man taking a swing at the ban Garda before being put to the floor.

Uriel.

k_mac wrote: »

I was asking a question. I thought some people had been struck on the legs but you claimed there was people struck on the head. They are two different levels of force.

Sigh. I didn't claim that anyone was hit on the head. Although, I think that their is a good possibility that someone did get a head hit (unintentionally perhaps). Cracking heads is a common phrase/terminology for physical violence etc...apologies if that terminology caused confusion.

nesf

Uriel. wrote: »

I think it is a fair point to be honest. What did the post I quoted serve to achieve?

Don't rise to what could potentially be bait. You were either being trolled or the person didn't recognise the saying.

Sleepy

I honestly wish the Gardaí had more freedom to be heavy handed. Half the "crimelords" in this country wouldn't exist if the Gardaí were still in a position where they could give little scrotes the thrashing they deserve when they act out of line.

The principle that "it's better to let 100 guilty men go free than to imprison 1 innocent man" is the very reason the Mafia thrived in America.

oscarBravo

Uriel. wrote: »

I was also not impressed by their handling of the individual who stood in front of (i think) Mary Hanafin's Ministerial Car on Sunday night. The man, if memory serves me right looked to be middle aged (45+). The way they threw him to the ground was completely uncalled for. He could have been moved out of the way without undertaking the take down maneuver that was performed on him. They were luck not to have broke his hip/arm or cracked his skull.

That didn't look like a "take down manoeuvre" to me. Two Gardaí were holding his arms and walking him backwards - albeit firmly - when he planted his feet and his momentum took him over backwards. Sure, he hit the ground pretty hard, but it's not like he was thrown to the ground.

danbohan

r3nu4l wrote: »

Given the history of Sinn Féin and it's past failure to recognise the Irish Governmental system as the true Government of Ireland, Sinn Féin breaking through the gates of Leinster House brings about echoes of the Republic's troubled birth.

It's far more serious in my mind than some random protesters doing it. It was also a bad move by Sinn Féin imo as it just brings back memories of what the party stands for/stood for (depending on your opinion)...subversion of the State. We should remember that some members of Sinn Féin were also at one time members of the IRA and were members of active service units (ASUs) or supported ASUs in their activities. Again, this shows that Sinn Féin are a 'lawless' party and believe that they still believe in overthrowing the Government to achieve their means, rather than using the democratic process. Basically Sinn Féin's actions yesterday gave the truth to their lie.

So with all that in mind, I think that the Garda was right to draw his baton. According to the papers, the army corporal also drew his baton because he feared for his safety.

if you care to notice the real subversion of this state has taken place by our current fianna fail politicians bringing this country to a situation where it has had to bring in IMF , perhaps sinn fein are a ''lawless party'' but then so too are the elite in fianna fail who have no respect for democracy or they would be long gone from office

oscarBravo

Line in the sand: enough with the "murderers" comments. No more warnings.

pah

http://www.rte.ie/news/av/2010/1122/media-2858931.html#

Struck on the legs? struck on the head?

Storm a Govt building in any other country and you'd be greeted with a line of armed security/cops/army and in some countries you WOULD be shot if you advanced.

This was not heavy handed, if anything the lack of force used is what is likely to encourage people to do it again.

I must say though the way the gates were just opened was ridiculous, surely Govt buildings should be secure?

Uriel.

oscarBravo wrote: »

That didn't look like a "take down manoeuvre" to me. Two Gardaí were holding his arms and walking him backwards - albeit firmly - when he planted his feet and his momentum took him over backwards. Sure, he hit the ground pretty hard, but it's not like he was thrown to the ground.

I am not so sure to be honest. The rear and top (i.e. Garda taking the high position - top of shoulder) Garda (male) moved in a twisted motion on the fall back and finished with an immediate knee pin. It could be argued that it was all just due to momentum but a number of the movements of both Garda suggested it was part of of normally executed take down procedure. WE'll never know for sure what was going on in the Garda's mind but to me it definitely looked like fairly standard take down.

r3nu4l

danbohan wrote: »

if you care to notice the real subversion of this state has taken place by our current fianna fail politicians bringing this country to a situation where it has had to bring in IMF , perhaps sinn fein are a ''lawless party'' but then so too are the elite in fianna fail who have no respect for democracy or they would be long gone from office

Don't get me started on Fianna Fáil, seriously, they are a disgrace to this country but the history of Sinn Féin makes them no better and a credible threat to Ireland (not a saviour by any stretch of the imagination!) and as a result their actions have only served to highlight that they haven't strayed as far from their past as they would like us to think.

As such, the Garda was right to draw his baton. A party who were the political support for a proscribed subversive organisation, who would like us to believe that they support peace, were involved yesterday in a VERY symbolic gesture towards the 'overthrow' of the State and our democratically elected leaders*. That deserved to be clamped down on heavily by the State and the drawing of a baton was a symbolic gesture too. We didn't see Gardaí laying into SF members and that's a credit to those that were there.
Was it heavy handed? Not in my opinion.


*The fact that I despise those current leaders and the people who consistently voted them in time and again is for another thread, not this one.

Dempo1

Forcefield wrote: »

Has anyone noticed the heavy handedness of the Gardai recently?
Since when has it been OK to engage protesters with Batons as we saw on yesterdays news with Sinn Feins protest outside the dail.

I'm not a big Sinn Fein fan and yes they did go through the gates (which were open anyway), but does that warrant a baton attack from a Garda.

If there ever was a day when the people of this country decided to go on mass protest and get rid of the crooks in the dail, at least they would know that they need plenty of padding for the beatings!!

Yep, I thought it looked a little heavy handed, you got to ask the question WTF where the gates left UN locked as reported on the news last night, hardly inspiring security measures at the dail. The Gard with the helmet n had the sinn fein TD by the throat at one stage.

I was curious to note the amount of Traffic Corps involved? could it be they have little else to do with the these new and ludicrous mobile speed camera units?

eamo12

oscarBravo wrote: »

Line in the sand: enough with the "murderers" comments. No more warnings.

Why do you censor posts that have the word "Murderers" and "shin fein" in the same sentence?? Does this inherent truth offend your political sensibilities? Do you want to erase the past and ignore what the shinners have done in our name?

fryup

well sinn fein and their "mates" didn't mind handing out pain during the troubles, so no harm in them getting a taste of their own medicine

Uriel.

pah wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/av/2010/1122/media-2858931.html#

Struck on the legs? struck on the head?

Storm a Govt building in any other country and you'd be greeted with a line of armed security/cops/army and in some countries you WOULD be shot if you advanced.

This was not heavy handed, if anything the lack of force used is what is likely to encourage people to do it again.

I must say though the way the gates were just opened was ridiculous, surely Govt buildings should be secure?

To be fair though, I don't think the building was stormed

ILA

nesf wrote: »

If a Garda orders you to move, which he/she has a legal right to, and you refuse it is perfectly acceptable to me that they pick you up and move you forcibly. They shouldn't smash your head in or anything but for instance those protestors had absolutely no genuine right to be on the grounds of Leinster House and should not have entered.

Its our national parliament. WE own it!

oscarBravo

ILA wrote: »

Its our national parliament. WE own it!

We own the national mint as well. Good luck wandering in there whenever you feel like it.

scruttox

ILA wrote: »

Its our national parliament. WE own it!

Can I push the door of your house in and barge in? Dont think so mate.

Bosco boy

Are people suggesting the gardai should let protestors do what they like and damage state property or assault people in theses buildings, the same people who are whinging about heavy handedness would be blaming the gardai for poor policing. O snodaigh is a disgrace and his pack of vigilantes, do you think the gardai are not as pissed off as anyone else with what's happened and is going on, however they know they are defending democracy flawed an all as it is, the alternative is o snodaigh and his vigilantes and we know their Partys past!!!

Lockstep

eamo12 wrote: »

Why do you censor posts that have the word "Murderers" and "shin fein" in the same sentence?? Does this inherent truth offend your political sensibilities? Do you want to erase the past and ignore what the shinners have done in our name?

Don't rail against moderation inside a thread, this is specifically laid out in the Charter. If you have a problem with the moderation, post in the Help Desk
Thanks.

ILA

scruttox wrote: »

Can I push the door of your house in and barge in? Dont think so mate.

My house is private property. Leinster House is a public building. There's no comparison whatsoever.

Uriel.

Bosco boy wrote: »

Are people suggesting the gardai should let protestors do what they like and damage state property or assault people in theses buildings, the same people who are whinging about heavy handedness would be blaming the gardai for poor policing. O snodaigh is a disgrace and his pack of vigilantes, do you think the gardai are not as pissed off as anyone else with what's happened and is going on, however they know they are defending democracy flawed an all as it is, the alternative is o snodaigh and his vigilantes and we know their past!!!

I don't think anyone is suggesting that to be fair.

But that doesn't mean there should be an inappropriate level of action taken.

If someone undertakes a Car on the Motorway, should they be shot by the ERU? - Extreme example I know. Law and order can be and should be kept in as reasonable and as sensible a way as possible.

scruttox

ILA wrote: »

My house is private property. Leinster House is a public building. There's no comparison whatsoever.

ok fair point, but you cant just storm a building like that. This is a democratic state and thats not the way to do business.

bmaxi

Whether we like them or not, (and personally there are quite a few I do not), the people on the other side of those gates are our representatives, an attack on them is an attack on us. The Gardaí are charged with protecting the institutions of the state, of which Dáil Eireann is one.
Having said that, when people are given leave by the law to use force, you will always get a few who will exceed their remit and the Gardaí have been guilty of this on a few occasions. Contrary to the OP, heavy handedness by the Gardaí is not a new phenomenon, I recall several instances after the Beatles concert in 1962 and that was just enthusiastic teenagers, not a riot.

pah

ILA wrote: »

My house is private property. Leinster House is a public building. There's no comparison whatsoever.

So Leinster House, Áras an uachtráin etc are public buildings I would imagine?

Think a crowd should be allowed to rush the grounds and building?

Whether they intended sitting in the lobby or smashing up the windows it doesn't matter. You can't do it!

Is the White House a public building? Would you fancy your chances as an American citizen, rushing the gates of the White House with a group of 50 people?

danbohan

eamo12 wrote: »

Why do you censor posts that have the word "Murderers" and "shin fein" in the same sentence?? Does this inherent truth offend your political sensibilities? Do you want to erase the past and ignore what the shinners have done in our name?

oscar bravo been deemed a sinn fein supporter i have seen it all now !, you can put murderers in front of any sentence of any political party in this country dont be too selective in your timescale it has nothing to do with the discussion here

PCPhoto

k_mac wrote: »

Was someones head cracked open?

no offence intended towards the poster but that comment is in my opinion just wrong !!!

its not about if someone was injured or not ... its the potential for injury ..... this is why we have charges like attempted murder, or dangerous driving .... but sure no one was killed so its ok , or there wasn't a crash ...so no harm done.

if a member used excessive force they should be reprimanded - however - in saying that - I believe that the gardai should be permitted to be a lot more heavy handed on the likes of protesters and criminals while in the line of duty - people who goto protests with the intention of causing hassle should be treated strongly - these people incite others to violence (in a mob rule way) - if they are dealt with swiftly the possibility of a riot can be stopped.

unfortunately we have a spineless government who are reactive instead of proactive - we need thousands of more gardai on the streets in order to catch the criminals who regularly break the law - and we need more jail spaces ASAP - to keep them off the streets.

scruttox

When the Spanish government told the public that ETA were responsible for the Madrid Bombings, and it turned out to be Al Queada, there was no storming of public / government buildings. They just wiped them out at the ballot box for their lies.

The "patriots" who storm buildings are only interested in bringing about social unrest and chaos.

Any true Irishman or Irishwoman would use democratic means to change the leadership of our Nation. And by Democratic means which we hold dear.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0428/gardai.html

Remember that

pah

Deleted User wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/0428/gardai.html

Remember that

yes.... how are you relating it to this?

scruttox

Gardaí are investigating following an attack on the Minster for Transport Noel Dempsey’s constituency office in Trim, Co Meath last night.

The word traiter was spray-painted on the outside of the building and three windows were smashed.

A Garda spokesman said the attack happened sometime between 2.30am and 7.30am and nobody was in the building at the time.

The office is one of a number the Minsiter has in the constituency.

manta356

scruttox wrote: »

Gardaí are investigating following an attack on the Minster for Transport Noel Dempsey’s constituency office in Trim, Co Meath last night.

The word traiter was spray-painted on the outside of the building and three windows were smashed.

A Garda spokesman said the attack happened sometime between 2.30am and 7.30am and nobody was in the building at the time.

The office is one of a number the Minsiter has in the constituency.

The person who wrote that would've been better spending more time in school.:o

scruttox

manta356 wrote: »

The person who wrote that would've been better spending more time in school.:o

Irish Time Jouno.:eek:

scruttox

scruttox wrote: »

Irish Time Jouno.:eek:

Sarcasm by the way.... Irish Times Journo;)

Dempo1

scruttox wrote: »

Gardaí are investigating following an attack on the Minster for Transport Noel Dempsey’s constituency office in Trim, Co Meath last night.

The word traiter was spray-painted on the outside of the building and three windows were smashed.

A Garda spokesman said the attack happened sometime between 2.30am and 7.30am and nobody was in the building at the time.

The office is one of a number the Minsiter has in the constituency.

Not sure what all the fuss is about, this smiling buffoon will have ample time to repaint his constituency office after the next election.

scruttox

Dempo1 wrote: »

Not sure what all the fuss is about, this smiling buffoon will have ample time to repaint his constituency office after the next election.

And then claim expenses....:rolleyes:

Dempo1

scruttox wrote: »

And then claim expenses....:rolleyes:

LOL:D and more besides. This is one Politician who really gets up my Goat

delta720

Having just seen a video of the incident in question, and having only heard about it this morning (after a weekend of having my head in college books), I think calling the garda response heavy-handed is an utter joke, but sadly predictable at this stage.

If I was to charge my local nightclub like that I would expect a feckin beating from the bouncers, but charge government buildings and there's uproar over people being pushed out and a fwe swings of a baton. This country has gone soft, SF members are tough guys, I'm sure they were expecting alot worse.

There seems to be a consistant group of people now, who wait for the 'establishment' to slip slightly out of line, and they then leap on it blaming all the worlds problems on some rediculous situation.

Lets get real here for a second, this traffic guard got up that morning, probably had breakfast, said goodbye to the kids, went into work and got sent out by his skipper on the bike. Gets a call a few hours later that there's a SF protest going to be heading up to LH.

He takes a spin around and next thing he knows there's 50 angry SFers charging through the gates and he's standing in the path by himself and he knows he can't let them through. He thinks "Oh s**te!", draws the baton and trys to push people away. There's pushing and shoving and he swings the baton a few times when the crowd start going a bit mad. Some fella trys to grab the baton off him, the bloods rushing, its noisy, he's struggling to get it back...you get the point.. It's not a FF plot to forever hold onto power, it's not the government flexing their muscles, people need to get off the internet (and out of books!) and see how the world actually works!

Now reading comments like:

If there ever was a day when the people of this country decided to go on mass protest and get rid of the crooks in the dail, at least they would know that they need plenty of padding for the beatings!!

Its our national parliament. WE own it!

If this represents the current views and opinions our society has, then it doesn't matter if the country will ever get back on track, we are just going to f**k ourselves up again.