ABs and the curse of the yellow card.

Shelflife

Its clear that there is a serious aversion to giving any ab a yellow card. I was at the game on sat and i could only marvel at the way that ire were penalised and the way that abs were penalised. i watched the game again last night and it merely confirmed my suspicions.
at the breakdown there is a serious difference in the way the game was reffed. ire were pinged instantly for every ruck infraction were as the abs were eventually pinged at the ruck, they were allowed to slow the ball down, roll away but still be in the scrumhalfs way and lazy run all day.
ire were "warned" after two pens yet the abs killed the few occasions of quick ball and did so with impunity,
healy was penalised for putting his hand on the ground, it hit the ground and he quicky got his bind up again, but the ref pinged him instantly, he pinged him again for not binding when he clearly had bound properly ( he did go down but thats not what he pinged him for).
he allowed the abs to play advantage yet for earls attempt and cronins attempt we were playing advantage on both occasions yet he said it was over, in the earls case there was at least two occasions of offside that he was playing advantage for.
bods try went to the tmo AFTER he had awarded the try and consulted with the linesman.
fitzgerald was taken out in the air and badly injured it was play on , yet when bowe imo fairly contested for the ball in the air he was penalised and warned.
imo the abs could have got 2 yellows on sat and could have had no real complaints, yet not one was shown.
i think there was a stat recently that international teams get a yellow every 11-12 pens yet the abs stat is one every 48 pens. mccaw in 93 ints has had 1, amazing for a 7.
This isnt a we lost because of the ref rant but it was very clear on sat that there was an ab rule and an ire rule.
something needs to be done about it.

corny

Shelflife wrote: »

Its clear that there is a serious aversion to giving any ab a yellow card. I was at the game on sat and i could only marvel at the way that ire were penalised and the way that abs were penalised. i watched the game again last night and it merely confirmed my suspicions.
at the breakdown there is a serious difference in the way the game was reffed. ire were pinged instantly for every ruck infraction were as the abs were eventually pinged at the ruck, they were allowed to slow the ball down, roll away but still be in the scrumhalfs way and lazy run all day.
ire were "warned" after two pens yet the abs killed the few occasions of quick ball and did so with impunity,
healy was penalised for putting his hand on the ground, it hit the ground and he quicky got his bind up again, but the ref pinged him instantly, he pinged him again for not binding when he clearly had bound properly ( he did go down but thats not what he pinged him for).
he allowed the abs to play advantage yet for earls attempt and cronins attempt we were playing advantage on both occasions yet he said it was over, in the earls case there was at least two occasions of offside that he was playing advantage for.
bods try went to the tmo AFTER he had awarded the try and consulted with the linesman.
fitzgerald was taken out in the air and badly injured it was play on , yet when bowe imo fairly contested for the ball in the air he was penalised and warned.
imo the abs could have got 2 yellows on sat and could have had no real complaints, yet not one was shown.
i think there was a stat recently that international teams get a yellow every 11-12 pens yet the abs stat is one every 48 pens. mccaw in 93 ints has had 1, amazing for a 7.
This isnt a we lost because of the ref rant but it was very clear on sat that there was an ab rule and an ire rule.
something needs to be done about it.

They had two thirds of the ball and way more phases of play. Its only natural we'd infringe more as a result. Although i do believe a SH team is gonna play a SH ref a bit better than us.

Stev_o

The ref refused to resort to YC for both teams. There should of been at least 1 on each side in the bin for repeat infringements plus Healy in the bin for repeat collpases in the scrum 3 meters out from the try line.

toomevara

Richie McCaw has received ONE yellow card in his entire international career. Just let that sink in a minute.......the most illegal player in the world game by a country mile, one yellow card!!!!

It beggars belief. There is no question that something happens to referees when they officiate the All blacks...voodoo, black magic, call it what you will but something is radically, radically wrong and the issue needs to be looked at....

RuggieBear

and guess who gave it to him?

Downtime

RuggieBear wrote: »

and guess who gave it to him?

It must be Roller

RuggieBear

i actually cant remember tbh! lol

But i think it was against Wales in the millenium about 5 years ago

d'Oracle

But we didn't get any yellows either....

Downtime

27 November 2006 - Wales v New Zealand Referee: D Pearson (RFU)

bamboozle

Stev_o wrote: »

The ref refused to resort to YC for both teams. There should of been at least 1 on each side in the bin for repeat infringements plus Healy in the bin for repeat collpases in the scrum 3 meters out from the try line.

he didnt penalise Healy for repeat collapses it was for not binding, which replays cleary showed to be incorrect as he was binding.
he was penalised earlier in game for dropping his hand to the floor during engagement of a scrum.

buck65

He was about to give a yellow card, hand went to pocket as he waited for the bodies to get up and when he saw it was Saint Richie the hand came away from the pocket fairly lively.
As the IRB have changed the game to suit the All Blacks winning the World Cup the refs probably feel if they stay on the right side of the ABs then the IRB will be happy enough with them.
No one wants to be the next Wayne Barnes so the ABs ref themselves for a large part.

theKramer

What happened to Wayne Barnes?

BoarHunter

theKramer wrote: »

What happened to Wayne Barnes?

ah well some people saw a forward passin the quarter finale in 2007 and barnes didn't see it as well as the whole of France

So they are blaming more barnes than themselves for being eliminated ... there was just a drop goal to kick after all

d'Oracle

theKramer wrote: »

What happened to Wayne Barnes?

He became the devil to a nation of 4million for having a poor game in the world cup.

Although nobody ever mentions what spineless idiots the losing team were for the last 15 min of the match.....

thomond2006

Downtime wrote: »

27 November 2006 - Wales v New Zealand Referee: D Pearson (RFU)

Legend.

theKramer

Ah, ok. I forgot about that
I thought ye meant that he yellow carded an All Black and got demoted for it like that ref last year who Paddy O'Brien publicly slated after the AB v Italy game.
From what I remember the ref penalised an AB scrum that was being r@ped by the Italian scrum. How dare he!! :eek:

stejkenny

theKramer wrote: »

Ah, ok. I forgot about that
I thought ye meant that he yellow carded an All Black and got demoted for it like that ref last year who Paddy O'Brien publicly slated after the AB v Italy game.
From what I remember the ref penalised an AB scrum that was being r@ped by the Italian scrum. How dare he!! :eek:

Stuart Dickinson (Australia) and it was Italy against NZ; for about ten minutes he allowed scrum after scrum to be reset on the all blacks try line even though they were quite clearly dropping their bind every time.

Paddy O' Brien or POB as we call him expressed anger that Dickinson did not, actually penalise the Italian tight head Castro Giovanni for "boring" into the NZ hooker Andrew Hore repeatedly in those scrums.

It would seem that "POB" study the hell out of the whole thing from his after statements.

Bizarre incident and the hand bags afterwards.

daveharnett

Shelflife wrote: »

Its clear that there is a serious aversion to giving any ab a yellow card. I was at the game on sat and i could only marvel at the way that ire were penalised and the way that abs were penalised.

I'd agree with that, but not for the cloak and dagger reasons you suggest.

Shelflife wrote: »

at the breakdown there is a serious difference in the way the game was reffed. ire were pinged instantly for every ruck infraction were as the abs were eventually pinged at the ruck, they were allowed to slow the ball down, roll away but still be in the scrumhalfs way and lazy run all day.

Dara O' Briain wrote:

There are three states of legality in Irish law. There is all this stuff which comes under "That's grand", then it moves into "Ah now don't push it", and finally it comes under "Right now you're takin the piss", and that's when the police come in.

Same applies to reffing. At the breakdown, the ABs were more competitive in the 'legal' and 'marginal' categories, and were smarter about where and when to attempt the blatantly illegal.

Shelflife wrote: »

ire were "warned" after two pens yet the abs killed the few occasions of quick ball and did so with impunity

This is all to do with timing. Refs don't actually give general warnings anymore (of the "next offence of this type=yellow card" variety). Now, the 'informal' caution is that any similar offence in the next 5/10 minutes=yellow. When the ref is ready to penalize for a small offence, the ABs stop offending.

Bottom line for me is that rather than some grand conspiracy, the ABs get away with more because they (particularly their captain) play the ref so much better than others.

Podge_irl

Wood made a good point (for once) that refs are unlikely to bin captains. We've benefitted from it too I think, BOD could have seen a yellow or two at times.

subfreq

There is always an open joke about McCaw during the 3N that he gets more last warnings in a game than most teams get in a season.

Refs will give Ritchie two or three last warnings in a game and never ping him.

It's so crazy that you can't but admire what ever super natural powers he has.

Even last weekend the ref kind of chuckles when he gives Ritchie his second last warning like he is powerless to card him and he knows it.

Even when he doesn't get a warning he enters every ruck diagonally from the side. HE is the greatest master of the black arts.

I thought that Conor made a really good point about the AB's and peno's on RTE. It is becoming such a huge issue and focus now that eventually refs will have to back lash.

Shelflife

"This is all to do with timing. Refs don't actually give general warnings anymore (of the "next offence of this type=yellow card" variety). Now, the 'informal' caution is that any similar offence in the next 5/10 minutes=yellow. When the ref is ready to penalize for a small offence, the ABs stop offending.

Bottom line for me is that rather than some grand conspiracy, the ABs get away with more because they (particularly their captain) play the ref so much better than others."

My point is Dave that ire were warned after 2 pens yet the abs killed more quick ball and were not warned. im not suggesting a grand conspiracy at all, but there is a difference. even after multiple offences during one attack there was no card and he reckoned that advantage was over.

im not sure that they were better at the marginal offences either, there were a number of blatent offences that he chose to ignore.

Downtime

Interesting article from Peter Bills in todays NZHerald on the protection of referees

twinytwo

subfreq wrote: »

There is always an open joke about McCaw during the 3N that he gets more last warnings in a game than most teams get in a season.

Refs will give Ritchie two or three last warnings in a game and never ping him.

It's so crazy that you can't but admire what ever super natural powers he has.

Even last weekend the ref kind of chuckles when he gives Ritchie his second last warning like he is powerless to card him and he knows it.

Even when he doesn't get a warning he enters every ruck diagonally from the side. HE is the greatest master of the black arts.

I thought that Conor made a really good point about the AB's and peno's on RTE. It is becoming such a huge issue and focus now that eventually refs will have to back lash.

What ever about healy... how are we ever supposed to beat them if they get away with killing the ball inside their own 22:(

seeing_ie

Matt Williams' ("They're not all blacks, they're bloody kiwis") take on this was that when Ireland infringed, they did it individually, spur of the moment.

The bloody kiwis, he reckoned, infringed systematically, in numbers, as a team, benefiting from a "safety in numbers" effect. He gave a couple of good examples. They sounded good to me anyway.

It was on the Off The Ball rugby show last night, downloadable, well worth a listen as always imo.

SARZY

The NZ rugby authorities are like the Captains at the Ryder cup, who alter the course to suit the strengths of their players.
They are DESPERATE to win the next world cup.
Their national pride and self-worth is at stake here and the rest of the IRB countries are supporting them by agreeing to allow POB alter the rules (laws) on the hoof.
I myself believe that its a clever ploy but it might not work as the evidence is there to show the have choked in the past and they will continue to.
They may win the world cup but France Aus and England and SA will ask the question on the journey and they, the N zealanders ,dont know what the answer will be.
The best laid plans of mice and men oft gang awry.

toomevara

seeing_ie wrote: »

The bloody kiwis, he reckoned, infringed systematically, in numbers, as a team, benefiting from a "safety in numbers" effect. He gave a couple of good examples. They sounded good to me anyway.
.

And he's absolutely spot-on, this is precisely what the AB's do. its part of the game plan and the system is clearly well worked out. Slow ball, whenever possible, take the penalty, take any momentum out of the game for the opposition and make sure you rotate the culprit as often as possible. its organised cheating, lets be frank, but they get away with it. The only answer is to play the game at pace, get penetration through aggression and offload in the tackle, don't let the ruck form if at all possible, particularly in the 22.

twinytwo

toomevara wrote: »

And he's absolutely spot-on, this is precisely what the AB's do. its part of the game plan and the system is clearly well worked out. Slow ball, whenever possible, take the penalty, take any momentum out of the game for the opposition and make sure you rotate the culprit as often as possible. its organised cheating, lets be frank, but they get away with it. The only answer is to play the game at pace, get penetration through aggression and offload in the tackle, don't let the ruck form if at all possible, particularly in the 22.

or get refs with a bit of cop on:pac:

d'Oracle

seeing_ie wrote: »

Matt Williams' ("They're not all blacks, they're bloody kiwis") take on this was that when Ireland infringed, they did it individually, spur of the moment.

The bloody kiwis, he reckoned, infringed systematically, in numbers, as a team, benefiting from a "safety in numbers" effect. He gave a couple of good examples. They sounded good to me anyway.

It was on the Off The Ball rugby show last night, downloadable, well worth a listen as always imo.

I like that.
I like him actually.

smurphy29

d'Oracle wrote: »

I like that.
I like him actually.

Yeah, Matty Williams is a great analyst, really insightful. Thought himself and Liam Toland made for excellent listening last night.

daveharnett

Downtime wrote: »

Interesting article from Peter Bills in todays NZHerald on the protection of referees

Peter Bills wrote:

This alarming inconsistency and refusal to countenance even a word of criticism of the referee is one of rugby union's biggest problems.

Because the authorities have rushed to protect the officials and hush up their obvious inadequacies and blunders, too many of them are not getting any better. In some cases, they are becoming worse.

In any walk of life, yours or mine, if we muck up but are never reprimanded or reminded about it, how on earth can we improve?

This basic truth seems to be beyond the understanding of rugby officials who presumably continue to adhere to the old adage that the referee is always right and to be trusted. Just like all those nice priests in Ireland...

Rugby needs to get its head out of the sand. Poor referees need to be exposed, not covered up and protected from criticism.

The central argument seems to be that refs don't improve because they live in a protective bubble where they never hear any criticism. That's nonsense. At the level he's talking about, refs are assessed at every game, and every single error is highlighted to them in video analysis afterwards. They know when they have had a bad game. If any further conformation is needed, they are free to open a newspaper.

We have enough trouble combating the soccer mentality at underage and club levels without players and management setting a bad example at the top.

dfkorg

McCaw plays the ref very well. Constantly in his ear after every infraction, "what did we do there ref?" "What was that for"

You can't blame them if they get away with it

Shelflife

daveharnett wrote: »

The central argument seems to be that refs don't improve because they live in a protective bubble where they never hear any criticism. That's nonsense. At the level he's talking about, refs are assessed at every game, and every single error is highlighted to them in video analysis afterwards. They know when they have had a bad game. If any further conformation is needed, they are free to open a newspaper.

We have enough trouble combating the soccer mentality at underage and club levels without players and management setting a bad example at the top.

Dave i realise that they are assessed at every game, but that makes the card/penalty ratio even worse, its not as if the pens are in the opposition half , in the irish game they consistantly killed quick ball.

if they are being assessed then the message isnt getting through to the refs or they are unwilling to apply the laws consistantly .

as an aside setting your stall out early and not taking ANY backchat or abuse will kill off the soccer mentality very quickly.

Shelflife

dfkorg wrote: »

McCaw plays the ref very well. Constantly in his ear after every infraction, "what did we do there ref?" "What was that for"

You can't blame them if they get away with it

theres no doubt that mccaw is an excellent captain, he works the ref very well, compare him and rocky and you can see who the ref will listen to more often then not.

you cant blame mccaw, but the refs shouldnt fall into his "honey trap"

[Jackass]

I saw stats from the tri nations before and iirc, New Zealand were given a yellow card for one in every 30+ infringements and Oz and SA were one in 10 or 12 infringements...

off the top of my head, but it was in that region.

And that's only for awarded penalties.

There is absolutely ZERO doubt that NZ are reffed differently at international level and have an unfair advantage. McCaw wouldn't be more than a very good 7 if he was playing the same sport as everyone else, which is kind of annoying when you think that he got Brian O'Driscoll's world player of the year award, in a distinctly average season for him.

It's one of those facts of the sport that some people will choose to never believe, even though it's as clear as day.

New Zealand don't cheat, the Heineken Cup draw isn't rigged and Santa Clause owns a condo in Florida that he spends six months of the year at.

tolosenc

Is it anyone wonder that Heaslip decided to take matters into his own hands over the summer?

If the laws were correctly applied to Richie McCaw, he'd be red carded by half time in 80% of the matches he plays. His tackles are nearly always high, he's nearly always diving in at the side, he doesn't seem to be aware that you're not supposed to use your hands when on the ground at the ruck...

The IRB has set this one up so NZ will have to try really hard not to win the WC next year, but I think they have it in them to implode.

toomevara

tolosenc wrote: »

NZ will have to try really hard not to win the WC next year, but I think they have it in them to implode.

Yep, you'd think, but they've got no God given right to win, the pressure on them is going to be huge and of course everything depends on keeping carter fit. It looks to me like the wallabies are creeping up on the inside and on the basis of the AI's I think England are finally on to something. And of course there's always France....

twinytwo

tolosenc wrote: »

Is it anyone wonder that Heaslip decided to take matters into his own hands over the summer?

If the laws were correctly applied to Richie McCaw, he'd be red carded by half time in 80% of the matches he plays. His tackles are nearly always high, he's nearly always diving in at the side, he doesn't seem to be aware that you're not supposed to use your hands when on the ground at the ruck...

The IRB has set this one up so NZ will have to try really hard not to win the WC next year, but I think they have it in them to implode.

reminds me of the time he got flattened agaisnt france at say half way. Frech winger gets tackled inside AB 22. Richie gets up and instead of running in a straight line to get back on side he runs at an angle and just "happens" to get block the french scrum half as he was about to pass it to the winger for a certain try. Richie throws his hands up looking all innocent. SH gets tackled and ab turn ball over. Ref and lines man say nothing .

bamboozle

daveharnett wrote: »

The central argument seems to be that refs don't improve because they live in a protective bubble where they never hear any criticism. That's nonsense. At the level he's talking about, refs are assessed at every game, and every single error is highlighted to them in video analysis afterwards. They know when they have had a bad game. If any further conformation is needed, they are free to open a newspaper.

We have enough trouble combating the soccer mentality at underage and club levels without players and management setting a bad example at the top.

leave Shannon out of it!!!

Ciaran-Irl

[Jackass] wrote: »

I saw stats from the tri nations before and iirc, New Zealand were given a yellow card for one in every 30+ infringements and Oz and SA were one in 10 or 12 infringements...

off the top of my head, but it was in that region.

And that's only for awarded penalties.

There is absolutely ZERO doubt that NZ are reffed differently at international level and have an unfair advantage. McCaw wouldn't be more than a very good 7 if he was playing the same sport as everyone else, which is kind of annoying when you think that he got Brian O'Driscoll's world player of the year award, in a distinctly average season for him.

It's one of those facts of the sport that some people will choose to never believe, even though it's as clear as day.

New Zealand don't cheat, the Heineken Cup draw isn't rigged and Santa Clause owns a condo in Florida that he spends six months of the year at.

New Zealand was a card for every 41 penalties, whereas South Africa got one every 7 penalties and Australia got one every 9.

buck65

The more I think about it the more the AB's can mess up the RWC next year. With crazy stats like those above hanging around it is a matter of time before there will be a backlash agains the AB's. All it takes is one off day in the knockout stages and the pressure on these guys with perhaps an injury to a key player (Carter, McCaw) could break them.

handsomecake

at first glance that yellow card stat is a signal of clear and utter reffereeing bias.an outrageous discrepency in quantity of penos to yellows.however lets look a little bit further...............

tri nations 2010 yellow cards:

10th july eden park nz vs sa
:bakkies botha killing the ball on south african try line(you could argue that after his headbutt he was a marked man as they repeatedly showed the infringement on the big screen).the ref was in no doubt as to who got away with it.if he sneezed he was going to the bin.

17th july westpac stadium nz vs sa
:dannie roussow kicks richie mccaw

24th july lang park aus vs sa
: jaques fourie spear tackle
:quade cooper spear tackle
:bj botha tackle infingement

31st july docklands stadium melbourne aus vs nz
: owen franks shoulder charge on richard brown
:drew mitchell late hit on mccaw
:drew mitchell slaps ball out of conrads smiths hands after official warning not to prevent quick lineouts-second yellow

4th sep freestate stadium sa vs aus
:faiinga spear tackle

9 games
9 yellows
4 for sa
4 for aus
1 for nz

only 2 of the 9 yellows were for tackle /ruck infringements.1 of them was arguably a retrospective punishment for a headbutt that was missed.

5 of the yellows were for late/spear/shoulder charge tackles

1 was for slapping the ball out of a players hand.
1 was for kicking a player on the ground.

the only backrow forward to be binned was roussow for a kick,so mccaw,pocock,burger,read,juan smith,spies ,kaino,elsom and richard brown your stereotypcal ball winners were not binned in the whole tournament.
it would appear that referrees are not really punishing anyone at ruck time regardless of what colour shirt they are wearing.
the reason new zealand peno stat was not as high s the others is becuase they were not picking players up and dropping them on their heads.although rene ranger should have walked for a shoulder hit on zane kirchner in the interest of balance.

on to the autumn internationals.new zealand have played 3 teams and had 1 player yellow carded, for a ruck infringement-kaino against england.no player has been binned from any of their opposition.mealamu was cited(but not carded) for a headbutt and rightly so.his ban wasnt long enough if you ask me.botha got 9 weeks for the same offence : a 450% longer ban.however dylan hartley was not carded or cited for a fore arm smash on mccaw.hartley's try had three english infringements in the build up ashton ahead of fodens kick,sonny bill tackled off the ball by flood and hartleys double movement. where is this supposed bias? they seemed more sinned against then sinners in that match but i have my black cap on so i digress.
lots of people took issue with this tackle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asi8iQPtZVM

but people had no problem with this a year ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhS1kgZMyzo

in the new zealand ireland match it was a state of lawlessness.4 collapsed scums on irelands own line and no card.black and green jerseys arriving sideways in to rucks,coming in from the oppositions side playing it on the deck.fitzgerald blatant killing of the ball twice in the one ruck-nothing.o callaghan lying pinned on his back playing the ball for about 4 second with the ref just admiring him.depending on who you supported you could point the finger at nigh on every player on the pitch.i thought it was funny that ferris had the gall to mouth off about the ref.he was playing it on the deck all day and scored off a blatant forward pass(although the ref allowed both teams do this).

in summary :a year out from the world cup and refereeing is appaling.someone is going to get done over by a shocker of a decision.you would think the refs would set their stalls out now and hand out yellow cards like hallmark at christmas.the offenders would soon stop.i think the allblacks conspiracy theorey is ridiculous though but im banging my head against a brick wall saying that on here becase of my well documented "turncoatedness".i think if you are objective and maybe re-watch the ire vs all blacks match or any match for that matter you will see they are all at it.its only because when teams get whipped by twenty points they have to find other reasons for losing etc.same with the way no-one criticises the samaon haka.who cares ,sure nobody
ever loses to samoa.


TL: DR refs are rubbish

OldRio

AB cheat and get away with it. The refs let them get away with it.
Most Rugby followers understand that. Latest stats prove it.
But some people don't want to see it.
Never mind, black is/are white to some.

Shelflife

Handsome i think your missing the point somewhat,

The arguement is not that we were beaten because of the ref, noone in their right mind would suggest that.

Its not that ire should have got carded or not (though in healys case his hand had barely touched the ground and he binded again straight away and he was pinged. the second pen was for not binding when he was clearly binding) that aside he was very lucky to stay on the pitch.

we are looking at the Abs and the reluctance of the refs to penalise them for repeat infractions. in the lead up to earls effort there was at least 2 if not three pens that the ref called advantage on but then he decided that advantage had being played.

now explain to me, in that instance, in the red zone AB are pinged for a pen---kill the move, pinged again for a pen ----kill the move , pinged again for a pen kill the move and then call advantage over. explain how the abs suffered there?

thats just one instance, they repeatedly kill quick ball and dont get carded for it.

getting away from particular instances they have a habit of loitering in the way while appearing to move away, in the old days they would have been rucked out of the way and wouldnt have returned. now they dont even get a whistle in their ear.

Ciaran-Irl

http://www.irishtimes.com/sports/rugby/2010/1124/1224284089774.html

Hansen steps in to defend McCaw
New Zealand assistant coach Steve Hansen has described the criticism of captain Richie McCaw’s work at the breakdown as “boring” after Ireland flanker Stephen Ferris became the latest person to accuse the All Blacks of getting away with illegally slowing down opposition ball.

McCaw, 29, has been world rugby’s scavenger supreme at the breakdown since making his debut against Ireland in 2001, with his strong ripping power and ability to rapidly latch on to the ball marking him out as one of the greatest players in his position.

Openside flankers, by their very nature, have to live on the edges of the game’s laws, but McCaw, who along with Mils Muliaina is New Zealand’s most capped player of all time with 93, has come in for plenty of stick during 2010.

South Africa were less than happy during their Tri Nations game in Wellington when McCaw was warned by Irish referee Alain Rolland that if he were to give away another penalty he would be sin-binned, only to infringe just moments later and remain on the pitch.

When McCaw was penalised during a Bledisloe Cup game against Australia later in the tournament, former Wallaby hooker-turned-commentator Phil Kearns joked that it was the first time the Crusaders man had been pinged in his career.

And Ferris, who scored Ireland’s first try in last weekend’s 38-18 defeat in Dublin, has argued that New Zealand were lucky to keep 15 men on the field as they continually slowed Irish possession during the final quarter, singling out McCaw as a key factor in that process.

But an unimpressed Hansen hit back, saying: “That’s becoming quite boring now I think. He is the greatest openside flanker in the game and he probably knows the rules better than the referees.

“If he makes a tackle and ends up on their side of the tackle, he is allowed to be there and compete for the ball until a ruck is formed. A ruck is not formed until two players are bound over the ball so he is not doing anything illegal.

“Every time he goes to speak to a referee about a penalty, which most of the time he has not given away, a commentator will say ‘there is the ref talking to McCaw again, he should have been yellow-carded’.

“It’s quite disrespectful, but all it does is make Richie play better, so I can put up with the boredom if it keeps motivating him. It’s just an excuse really.”

tolosenc

buck65 wrote: »

All it takes is one off day in the knockout stages

Or one ref not reading from the script...

toomevara wrote: »

they've got no God given right to win

Correct. It appears to be an IRB given right.

twinytwo

handsomecake wrote: »

at first glance that yellow card stat is a signal of clear and utter reffereeing bias.an outrageous discrepency in quantity of penos to yellows.however lets look a little bit further...............

tri nations 2010 yellow cards:

10th july eden park nz vs sa
:bakkies botha killing the ball on south african try line(you could argue that after his headbutt he was a marked man as they repeatedly showed the infringement on the big screen).the ref was in no doubt as to who got away with it.if he sneezed he was going to the bin.

17th july westpac stadium nz vs sa
:dannie roussow kicks richie mccaw

24th july lang park aus vs sa
: jaques fourie spear tackle
:quade cooper spear tackle
:bj botha tackle infingement

31st july docklands stadium melbourne aus vs nz
: owen franks shoulder charge on richard brown
:drew mitchell late hit on mccaw
:drew mitchell slaps ball out of conrads smiths hands after official warning not to prevent quick lineouts-second yellow

4th sep freestate stadium sa vs aus
:faiinga spear tackle

9 games
9 yellows
4 for sa
4 for aus
1 for nz

only 2 of the 9 yellows were for tackle /ruck infringements.1 of them was arguably a retrospective punishment for a headbutt that was missed.

5 of the yellows were for late/spear/shoulder charge tackles

1 was for slapping the ball out of a players hand.
1 was for kicking a player on the ground.

the only backrow forward to be binned was roussow for a kick,so mccaw,pocock,burger,read,juan smith,spies ,kaino,elsom and richard brown your stereotypcal ball winners were not binned in the whole tournament.
it would appear that referrees are not really punishing anyone at ruck time regardless of what colour shirt they are wearing.
the reason new zealand peno stat was not as high s the others is becuase they were not picking players up and dropping them on their heads.although rene ranger should have walked for a shoulder hit on zane kirchner in the interest of balance.

on to the autumn internationals.new zealand have played 3 teams and had 1 player yellow carded, for a ruck infringement-kaino against england.no player has been binned from any of their opposition.mealamu was cited(but not carded) for a headbutt and rightly so.his ban wasnt long enough if you ask me.botha got 9 weeks for the same offence : a 450% longer ban.however dylan hartley was not carded or cited for a fore arm smash on mccaw.hartley's try had three english infringements in the build up ashton ahead of fodens kick,sonny bill tackled off the ball by flood and hartleys double movement. where is this supposed bias? they seemed more sinned against then sinners in that match but i have my black cap on so i digress.
lots of people took issue with this tackle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Asi8iQPtZVM

but people had no problem with this a year ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhS1kgZMyzo

in the new zealand ireland match it was a state of lawlessness.4 collapsed scums on irelands own line and no card.black and green jerseys arriving sideways in to rucks,coming in from the oppositions side playing it on the deck.fitzgerald blatant killing of the ball twice in the one ruck-nothing.o callaghan lying pinned on his back playing the ball for about 4 second with the ref just admiring him.depending on who you supported you could point the finger at nigh on every player on the pitch.i thought it was funny that ferris had the gall to mouth off about the ref.he was playing it on the deck all day and scored off a blatant forward pass(although the ref allowed both teams do this).

in summary :a year out from the world cup and refereeing is appaling.someone is going to get done over by a shocker of a decision.you would think the refs would set their stalls out now and hand out yellow cards like hallmark at christmas.the offenders would soon stop.i think the allblacks conspiracy theorey is ridiculous though but im banging my head against a brick wall saying that on here becase of my well documented "turncoatedness".i think if you are objective and maybe re-watch the ire vs all blacks match or any match for that matter you will see they are all at it.its only because when teams get whipped by twenty points they have to find other reasons for losing etc.same with the way no-one criticises the samaon haka.who cares ,sure nobody
ever loses to samoa.


TL: DR refs are rubbish

No but past experiences show they get away with that as well..

daveharnett

Shelflife wrote: »

we are looking at the Abs and the reluctance of the refs to penalise them for repeat infractions. in the lead up to earls effort there was at least 2 if not three pens that the ref called advantage on but then he decided that advantage had being played.

I agree that advantage was used poorly last weekend. A PK within 10 of the line = an almost guaranteed 3 points at that level.

For me, that means it should only be "advantage over" for a drop goal or a very clear try scoring opportunity (3-1 overlap, 50-50 kick over the top etc...)

Shelflife wrote: »

now explain to me, in that instance, in the red zone AB are pinged for a pen---kill the move, pinged again for a pen ----kill the move , pinged again for a pen kill the move and then call advantage over. explain how the abs suffered there?

Just for the record, the elite refs have agreed recently to abandon the 'red zone'. Offences should be treated the same regardless of where they occur. That's not to say that I disagree with your point.

Trojan

Blog post on some of the quotes and stats. I'm hoping Mike Miller gives me a response on it.

handsomecake

Trojan wrote: »

Blog post on some of the quotes and stats. I'm hoping Mike Miller gives me a response on it.

if you read my above post you will see that only two players in the whole tournament were carded for ruck/tackle infingements.bakkies botha, and bj botha.do the irb favour australia aswell? all the other cards were for violent conduct and dangerous tackles.you can dress stats up any way you like to prove any point you want to make.that peno to card ratio proves absolutely nothing.if faiinga, cooper, and mitchell stopped spear tackling and hitting people late their stat would have been comparable to new zealands.rucks are a lottery and a mess of bodies open to all sorts of interpretations and opinions.picking someone up and dropping them from above the horizontal is unmissable and refs are more likely to give it.

how many players in international rugby this calender year have been yellowed for killing/slowing the ball down or being offside?

OldRio

Sand, head and burying comes to mind;)

Trojan

As the IRB are happy to mis-use stats to say that scrums are fine (which they're clearly not), I'm happy to mis-use stats to say that McCaw is getting away with murder at the ruck (which he clearly is).

I don't really care about the stats at the end of the day, but I would like to see NZ getting policed properly. They're good enough when they're playing normally, without giving them a further advantage.