Fianna Failure: how do we prevent them doing this again?

Monty Burnz

I am sure FF will take a drubbing at the next election, but voters' memories are short and in all probability the party/parties that come in next to try to clean up the disaster that Fianna Failure have created will take the bulk of the blame for the cuts/unemployment/mental health problems etc. etc. (just as Obama is blamed for Bush's recession in the US).

The question is this: how do we prevent a resurgent Fianna Fail from coming back into power and destroying us all over again in 10-20 years with their parish pump politics, corruption and incompetence?

Dannyboy83

I don't believe we can.

This is a repeat of a 25-30year cycle we are stuck in, FF destroy the country every 25-30 years.

The Volt

Demand a public enquiry. Ignore cries from Lienihan that it's all in the past. If we fail to learn from history we'll repeat the same mistakes. It must never be forgotten that Fianna Fail committed economic terrorism.

Yitzhak Rabin

Voltwad wrote: »

Demand a public enquiry. Ignore cries from Lienihan that it's all in the past. If we fail to learn from history we'll repeat the same mistakes. It must never be forgotten that Fianna Fail committed economic terrorism.

Yes, that'll work!

As you know, the (still ongoing) planning tribunals have been a roaring success in bringing people to justice.

Liam Byrne

yekahs wrote: »

Yes, that'll work!

As you know, the (still ongoing) planning tribunals have been a roaring success in bringing people to justice.

Speaking of which, where the hell is the verdict on Ahern ? It must be 8 months late at this stage !!!!! :mad:

The Volt

Look who's in charge of them!


It's the responsibility now of every person affected by this FF government to remind people regularly how badly they've messed up. They deserve a reputation something along the lines of the Nazis. Their supporters should be treated as holocaust deniers.

Monty Burnz

yekahs wrote: »

Yes, that'll work!

As you know, the (still ongoing) planning tribunals have been a roaring success in bringing people to justice.

Yes. Better of just handing another billion to the legal profession. Is there any way at all our 'police' would investigate political corruption on this scale?

What we really need of course is a new constitution and electoral reforms. I don't want culchie morons like Jackie Healy Rae rubber stamping the addition of €100,000,000,000 of debt to the Irish taxpayer so that he can get a new swimming pool in Sneem or whatever nonsense his ilk get up to.

Monty Burnz

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Speaking of which, where the hell is the verdict on Ahern ? It must be 8 months late at this stage !!!!! :mad:

I think we all know the verdict - but I bet 40% of people in this country would vote for him again tomorrow... "oh, everyting was great altogedder win Bertie wuz in chaarge..."

jimmycrackcorm

You cannot prevent them from doing it again because it was the people who chose to vote them in. Until you have a situation where people vote for the national good over having their potholes fixed then it's goign to happen again.

Monty Burnz

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

You cannot prevent them from doing it again because it was the people who chose to vote them in. Until you have a situation where people vote for the national good over having their potholes fixed then it's goign to happen again.

So we've got to engineer a system that prevents that?

jimmycrackcorm

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So we've got to engineer a system that prevents that?

Bring in the BORG -you will assimilate.

No system can change the Irish psyche.

Sardonicat

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Bring in the BORG -you will assimilate.

No system can change the Irish psyche.

I think we are about to discover the curative properties of the IMF.

n97 mini

FF are the ultimate Mé Féin party. As long as people vote in their own personal interest then FF will continue to be a major political party.

Clanket

Monty Burnz wrote: »

So we've got to engineer a system that prevents that?

Basically yes. I'm sick of the shít I listen to every time I hear people moaning about the state of the country. And don't even mention about when out for a few pints.

What we need is a completely new model. It might sound like clap trap but the foundations of this model need to be in honesty, responsibility, efficiency, and value for money. I'm sure there's several others but I haven't got the head for it at the moment.

People can talk all they want about what's wrong with the country. But are they willing to put the effort into fixing it? Other than pointless marches and mindless blabbering? No. And that's the problem. What we need to do is start a new political party. With the right thinking behind it. There's no easy answers to anything, but what we need is a party willing to accept this and come up with various solutions to the various problems and then decide on what's best. And that's willing to take the hard decisions when needed. Leadership from the top, that inevitably seeps down to the levels of government below.

We need the best of the best in the places where they are needed. Think about running Ireland as an effiecent business model. What's best for us and how do we achieve it? It will certainly be better than what's there at the moment. No one can deny this.

I'm very willing to invest my time in this. But is anyone else?

Overheal

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I am sure FF will take a drubbing at the next election, but voters' memories are short and in all probability the party/parties that come in next to try to clean up the disaster that Fianna Failure have created will take the bulk of the blame for the cuts/unemployment/mental health problems etc. etc. (just as Obama is blamed for Bush's recession in the US).

The question is this: how do we prevent a resurgent Fianna Fail from coming back into power and destroying us all over again in 10-20 years with their parish pump politics, corruption and incompetence?

Quite simply with Democracy. Democracy voted them in; Democracy can keep them out.

While you're at it I would install constitutional limits on how long a seat can remain empty before election must be held to fill it.

CDfm

You get the politicians you elect.

I am bemused at the mock horror of posters for electing politicians who supported the same policies Fianna Fail did.

I am equally bemused that the Corporate Estate/Public Service/Unions/Interest Groups and Social Partnership with its unelected power wielding participants are all quiet as to their part in the mess.So you cant blame anyone until you sort these bunch out.

The politicians were puppets.

Did the electorate get what it asked for in all the spending increases which redelivered FF to power. Would it have been different under others . Not from their manifesto's in the last budget.

So we need a real appraisal of what we want from politicians and public servants.

Cavehill Red

I think the current cabinet should be facing treason charges.

kaiser sauze

Simple, we don't vote for them.

When they come to your constituency and 'turn a sod' on some local pet project: ignore it.

If they come to your grandfather's funeral, unless they knew him personally: ignore it.

If they try to bribe you with promises of economy busting wage increases and welfare rises: ignore it.

nesf

Join an Opposition party and help them in elections. That's the most direct way you can try to keep FF out of power.

Cavehill Red

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Simple, we don't vote for them.

When they come to your constituency and 'turn a sod' on some local pet project: grab the shovel and beat them with it.

If they come to your grandfather's funeral, unless they knew him personally: boot them into the grave and bury them alive.

If they try to bribe you with promises of economy busting wage increases and welfare rises: put them on trial for treason against the state.

Some alternative suggestions. Perhaps I'm a little more irked about them than you are.

kaiser sauze

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I think the current cabinet should be facing treason charges.

Can I ask on what grounds?

(Serious question)

Cavehill Red

kaiser sauze wrote: »

Can I ask on what grounds?

(Serious question)

Under the terms of Article 39 of the constitution it is treason to assist any other State or person in the overthrow of the State.

It seems to me, though I am no lawyer, that assisting the EU in bankrupting the state for the benefit of those outside the state (bank bondholders such as Swiss banks and Abramovich) complies with the terms of treason.

stanley 2

nesf wrote: »

Join an Opposition party and help them in elections. That's the most direct way you can try to keep FF out of power.

will they be any better

Cavehill Red

stanley 2 wrote: »

will they be any better

Could they possibly be any worse?

kaiser sauze

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Under the terms of Article 39 of the constitution it is treason to assist any other State or person in the overthrow of the State.

It seems to me, though I am no lawyer, that assisting the EU in bankrupting the state for the benefit of those outside the state (bank bondholders such as Swiss banks and Abramovich) complies with the terms of treason.

OK, now I know you have no idea what you are talking about.

bringitdown

One thing I think and as strange as this might seem ... but FF must stay in power to pass the budget and see the ECB/IMF in the door.

The temporal memories of Irish voters scares me.

Once the budget/bailout measures are passed and in place (afraid it needs to be) make them take their medicine of a general election.

run_Forrest_run

over time I think people will learn to avoid FF like the plague but that won't happen overnight. Listen, the reason why this bunch of pricks was elected so many times is that a lot of the electorate were in bed with them.
They had the unions on their side due to blunders such as benchmarking (the latest reincarnation being the Croke Park agreement).

A lot of people did well out of FF, between land rezoning, property development, basically anything that would fit nicely in the Galway tent!
There were (and still are) a lot of greedy people in this country who feel they are above the common man and hence are invincible.
Only time can sort this out, it takes time to lean the lesson of a lifetime.

Monty Burnz

bringitdown wrote: »

One thing I think and as strange as this might seem ... but FF must stay in power to pass the budget and see the ECB/IMF in the door.

The temporal memories of Irish voters scares me.

Once the budget/bailout measures are passed and in place (afraid it needs to be) make them take their medicine of a general election.

I tend to agree. Remember that most of our 'best and brightest' :eek: the 'highly educated' people of Ireland were watching X-Factor while Comical Lenny and Biffo were announcing they had bankrupted the country. With voters like that, we deserve incompetent morons in government.

CDfm

stanley 2 wrote: »

will they be any better

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Could they possibly be any worse?

The alternatives are exactly the same as what is there now.

The idea that the EU/IMF facilities are a bad thing is fairly flawed and that it has affected our sovereignty is flawed too. Joining the EU & the Euro did that. The Euro has been a disaster, not just for Ireland, but for the EU.

You have had a Union call for Civil disobedience from a Union.. That is wrong.

The irish liquidity issue is an issue that reverbs around Europe via the banking system and the British & German banks that lent to Irish banks are equally affected.

IMHO - until you have Public Service reform and cross party support for that - you will have a repeat.

dan_d

Excellent, an important question.

I think the only way really, is to change our system. I don't see any other way around it. The public memory is very short. I know my mother (who is in her mid 50s) occasionally refers to things that politicians did, how one party did this thing or the other thing, when she was younger - stuff that I've just never heard of, because I wasn't around then and it's never mentioned any more. The kind of thing that would make me think twice about voting for a particular party.

So the way I see it, we have to change the voting system. We have to put more of an emphasis on voting a politician in based on country-wide campaigning, rather than the local GAA-type campaigning. We have to get out of the parochial mindset - voting people in because of what they'll do for us and our local area.

It's all very well to say you get what you vote for, but the system in place enables this. We have to alter the system. I also think we need more parties....an alternative. We certainly need a prosecution system of some sort, to prevent the kind of behaviour that went on in the last few years.

But something has to change....we can't just keep going the way we are.

yermanoffthetv

Ok heres an idea. How about that each government minister is bound to a social contract. Targets are set each budget and if ministers proformance falls conciderably short of those targets they would be forced to resign the ministerial post. They can feck off to the back benches or whever they want but it woud keep the front bench from getting too cozy otherwise there out on their arse.

luckylucky

My two cents: It should be built into the constitution that when the economy is growing that there should be no budget deficit, i.e. we don't need and didn't need massive growth, steady growth of 2-3% a year or thereabouts is just fine - if money had been taken out of the economy when it had been growing and set aside for the inevitable rainy day (understatement I know) then this economic meltdown could have been a mere minor recession.

CDfm

dan_d wrote: »

Excellent, an important question.

I think the only way really, is to change our system. I don't see any other way around it. The public memory is very short. I know my mother (who is in her mid 50s) occasionally refers to things that politicians did, how one party did this thing or the other thing, when she was younger - stuff that I've just never heard of, because I wasn't around then and it's never mentioned any more. The kind of thing that would make me think twice about voting for a particular party.

Mary Harney was known for getting natural gas installation grants payments for her constituents and haughey for the free bus passes for OAP's.

But something has to change....we can't just keep going the way we are.

All the Presidents Men about Nixon and Watergate was on the telly over the weekend. Public servants got jailed.

yermanoffthetv wrote: »

Ok heres an idea. How about that each government minister is bound to a social contract. Targets are set each budget and if ministers proformance falls conciderably short of those targets they would be forced to resign the ministerial post. They can feck off to the back benches or whever they want but it woud keep the front bench from getting too cozy otherwise there out on their arse.

That is fine in theory but the public service do the execution of the policies.

Its grand to have policies but they have to be put in place and how do you fire a Civil or Public Servant. Think regulators and think the Child Abuse Scandals where public servants did not act. Nothing happened them.

The other issue is that when a politician does not behave he is f*****

I do not like the man, but, Ivor Callelly proposed radical changes at the Dept of Health and was trying to run his area along business lines. However , he was shunted out of office over something relatively trivial. A house getting painted and the rumour is that someone went to a lot of trouble to get him.

So what politician in their right mind would take the Ivor trail if the wanted to be re-elected.

luckylucky wrote: »

My two cents: It should be built into the constitution that when the economy is growing that there should be no budget deficit, i.e. we don't need and didn't need massive growth, steady growth of 2-3% a year or thereabouts is just fine - if money had been taken out of the economy when it had been growing and set aside for the inevitable rainy day (understatement I know) then this economic meltdown could have been a mere minor recession.

Constitutions can only do so much and we live in a democracy.

The electorate decide how they are going to be governed.

An election is a beauty parade in giving people what they want rather than doing what is right.

caseyann

We should have put in place police to police the Government like they police the police like the The Garda Ombudsman

Oh and vote their wages aswell for them.We choose what to pay them not them choosing for themselves.Must be nice to decide own wages.

T runner

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I am sure FF will take a drubbing at the next election, but voters' memories are short and in all probability the party/parties that come in next to try to clean up the disaster that Fianna Failure have created will take the bulk of the blame for the cuts/unemployment/mental health problems etc. etc. (just as Obama is blamed for Bush's recession in the US).

The question is this: how do we prevent a resurgent Fianna Fail from coming back into power and destroying us all over again in 10-20 years with their parish pump politics, corruption and incompetence?

We must change the structure of politics in Ireland where the best local TD is not the one who can pull most strokes for his constituents.

We need more representative politicians. That may mean hard to swallow changes like gender quotas.


People must educate themselves and their children about politics.
We need to decise what type of country we want to live in. We are not helpless.

irishh_bob

run_Forrest_run wrote: »

over time I think people will learn to avoid FF like the plague but that won't happen overnight. Listen, the reason why this bunch of pricks was elected so many times is that a lot of the electorate were in bed with them.
They had the unions on their side due to blunders such as benchmarking (the latest reincarnation being the Croke Park agreement).

A lot of people did well out of FF, between land rezoning, property development, basically anything that would fit nicely in the Galway tent!
There were (and still are) a lot of greedy people in this country who feel they are above the common man and hence are invincible.
Only time can sort this out, it takes time to lean the lesson of a lifetime.

spot on , fianna fail operates like some masonic cult , those who vote for them are afforded special treatment and opportunitys , i know a pensioner who despite being quite well of is getting her roof entirely replaced and her house insulated for free , she sent in an application under some scheme and it was passed without even an on site inspecton , what ever QUANGO queen or civil servant examined the form simply told her , we,l take you at face value , this woman has a farm of land , drives a 2010 car , is over 66 and black fianna fail

dont think that your vote is secret , the party know who their own people are and they reward them for thier loyalty

CDfm

irishh_bob wrote: »

spot on , fianna fail operates like some masonic cult , those who vote for them are afforded special treatment and opportunitys ,

All political parties and politicians operate the same way, the idea that they do not is ludicrous.

You only have to look at the appointment of judges and garda sergeants and semi-state body board appointments or any discretionary appointments.

If you think that Fine Gael, Labour or the Greens do not operate the same way ,you are not dealing with reality.

Also, if you think that Unions and Public Servants do not use their powers and influence appointments then you are also not dealing with facts.

Politicians help other politicians and if TD X has a nephew a Garda then he will ask his opposite number to use his influence and vice versa.