UK offers direct loan to irish republic

thetonynator

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11807769

They want to ''Help a friend in need'' apparently . . .

:rolleyes:

In the ''low billions''.


In before someone asks why they didnt do that in the famine . . .:rolleyes:

Dannyboy83

thetonynator wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11807769
In before someone asks why they didnt do that in the famine . . .:rolleyes:

Simples.........coz we owe them £150billion (RBS are exposed for £50billion alone) and they want to make sure we pay it back, not default
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/8141618/British-banks-have-140-billion-exposure-to-Irelands-economic-crisis.html

Not so much an act of kindness, as an act of desperation.

thetonynator

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Simples.........coz we owe them £150billion (RBS are exposed for £50billion alone) and they want to make sure we pay it back, not default
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ireland/8141618/British-banks-have-140-billion-exposure-to-Irelands-economic-crisis.html

Not so much an act of kindness, as an act of desperation.

The bit about the famine was a joke . . and 150m is nothing compared to the billions they're offering us. Can't see where they are going to get the money though. And if the IMF bailout is EU funded, then they will be paying for it anyway . . .

Dannyboy83

They offered 7bill

Where did you get 150mill from?

johndaman66

thetonynator wrote: »

and 150m is nothing compared to the billions they're offering us..

£150bn is the figure Dannyboy83 mentioned I would have thought...hardly a small figure?

jmayo

thetonynator wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11807769

They want to ''Help a friend in need'' apparently . . .

:rolleyes:

In the ''low billions''.


In before someone asks why they didnt do that in the famine . . .:rolleyes:

To all ff members and ff supporters,
I would like to thank fianna fáil "The Republican Party" for arranging the ever so symbolic event where we as an independent nation and former British colony have to accept a loan from Britain in order to survive as a "somewhat" legitimate economic entity.

"A lot done, more to do" was a very prescient statement. :mad:

Well "soldiers of dysentery" you have outdone yourselves this time, you tried to drag the country into oblivion in the past, but this time you really took it a whole new level.
Your economic failures in the dark days of the 30s and 50s were bad, but at least people could escape to Britain and the US.
Somehow we managed to survive without asking for foreign aid.

Your spending splurges in the late 70s resulted in 10 odd years of some of us "tightening our belts" with yet more emigration, although thankfully that time some of us had a decent education to fall back on when we arrived in our new countries.
We just about managed to not have to request some foreigner to come in to bail us out that time.

Then in the 90s we managed to create a country where there was hope, there was real growth. Hell people envied us, foreigners held us up as a good example and we were for once thriving.

But that wasn't good enough for you, your friends were not doing well enough, they needed a bigger slice of the action.
Of course to do this you needed a little bit of luck and you got it when we joined the Euro and credit became cheap.
Then you managed to turn a brilliant lauded economy into the world's biggest one trick pony economy which was dependent, not on our hard work and exports, but on the importation of cheap money.
Then when the money stopped flowing the world found out what they had always known, we had nothing but we owed everyone.

You have outdone yourselves this time.
Now we have to go with a begging bowl to Europe, we have to accept a loan from Britain, because you basically have told the world the Irish can't look after themselves.
Your glorious leader has single handedly even manged to resurrect the old Irish sterotype of the drunken paddy.

I can't wait for your next election slogan.
Perhaps it will be a "Nation once again - under the crown" ?

Regards,
A non soldier of destiny.

RealityCheck

Also don't forget Sweden have offered us bilateral loans aswell according to the minister!!

dan_d

As I understand it we are accepting a loan from the EU/IMF.Possibly some of this is contributed by the UK..
Can we retain a bit of perspective here.The UK are not responsible for bailing us out and never were,They offered, and it has not been accepted;can we stop invoking DeV and republicanism in that direction...it's not necessary.

declanx

Hang on....the gov who wasted our hard work and money are getting the bail out money also? Really?

P.S. Thanks to the UK. We have a glimmer of hope that FF base support wil die once the UK money flows and the Greedy party will go back to their roots.

Declan.

johndaman66

Further to and in addition to jmayo's post and I mentioned it on another thread already we really really need to move away from the backward parochial, you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours style of politics that is so prevalent in this country. And I appreciate I am going of the topic in discussion too. For example its highly counter productive when an elected representative whos mandate is transport is pushing for a sports facility on his home turf just to obtain support and votes in the next election. Or the like of that fat arse gom that is Jackie Healy Ray holding the country to ransom just because he wants to get a few backroads around Kenmare resurfaced, again ultimately in his own self interest. If somebody went over to Germany or Holland with this general ethos of politics I'm sure they would be saying to themselves where the fu*k did he come from.

ashleey

Where will the uk get the money? The bank of England will make it up of course. Let's face it we're all humiliated. Don't get defensive. Take the money. Tell the eu that your banks are ruined. No one can ever pay back what the eu are proposing. Either we make money up or it's default. There is no other solution. The IMF loan would double the national debt overnight.

johndaman66

Jesus, reading through these threads its apparent that the die hard gombien Fianna Fail supporters are still alive and well and among us. What will it take like...

RealityCheck

ashleey wrote: »

Where will the uk get the money? The bank of England will make it up of course. Let's face it we're all humiliated. Don't get defensive. Take the money. Tell the eu that your banks are ruined. No one can ever pay back what the eu are proposing. Either we make money up or it's default. There is no other solution.

I believe there is a significant chance of that and may rerquire restructuring down the road, probably leaving us in the throws of the IMF for longer than the standard 3 years. Hopefully the economy bounces back as soon as possible as this is the only thing that can save us from that fate. That is what everyone is hoping for all across Europe and Ireland. Unfortunately a lot of that will depend on external factors and will be out of our control.

ashleey wrote: »

The IMF loan would double the national debt overnight.

It won't happen overnight. It won't be drawndown all at once, but I suspect much of the banks money will, so they can gear up to restructure and sell them asap.

Cavehill Red

thetonynator wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11807769

They want to ''Help a friend in need'' apparently . . .

:rolleyes:

In the ''low billions''.


In before someone asks why they didnt do that in the famine . . .:rolleyes:

It wasn't a famine, ffs! (Seriously, go read history!)
Anyway, the Swedes are offering us bilateral loans too. I'd rather have their money, to be honest. The Brits are only bailing us for the same reason the EU and IMF are - to look after their own banks.

ashleey

Exactly right. The fundamental problem though, is that as soon as debt exceeds 100% of GDP the economy needs to grow faster than the interest rate. Currently the Irish banks borrow at 1% from the ecb. Soon it will be at 5% from the IMF. Can't see a long term improvement for Irish taxpayers there

hotmail.com

I think we should leave out talking about the Famine tonight.

What I want to know is how this will break down...How much will get off the IMF, the ECB and Britian and Sweeden?

What is the point of these bilateral loans if the IMF is willing to provide the bailout?

Cavehill Red

hotmail.com wrote: »

I think we should leave out talking about the Famine tonight.

What I want to know is how this will break down...How much will get off the IMF, the ECB and Britian and Sweeden?

What is the point of these bilateral loans if the IMF is willing to provide the bailout?

That's what the 'talks' are supposed to be about.
Seeing as I'm on a roll, prediction-wise, I'm going to suggest the following:-
70-80 billion from the EU via the fund they set up after Greece.
6-7 billion from Britain.
And we'll say thanks but no thanks to the one set of people offering money without conditions of paying off their banks - the Swedes.

murphy93

dan_d wrote: »

As I understand it we are accepting a loan from the EU/IMF.Possibly some of this is contributed by the UK..
Can we retain a bit of perspective here.The UK are not responsible for bailing us out and never were,They offered, and it has not been accepted;can we stop invoking DeV and republicanism in that direction...it's not necessary.

Good points there are lots of Irish in the UK and there interest in Genuine.
Many large organisations in the Uk are run by Irish people with great sucess

luckylucky

If we accept a loan off the Uk - we will never hear the end of it. Even talk about it seems to be resurrecting the old or below the surface Anti-Irish sentiment of the past in a certain element in the UK (I realise before anyone starts that plenty in the UK would genuinely want to help out if they could). If we accept money from the UK and it's not absolutely necessity i.e. we can get the money elsewhere at more or less the same interest rate I think it would be yet another massive mistake in this ongoing debacle. Such a loan would not imo improve relations between our countries - rather it would set it back.

kippy

luckylucky wrote: »

If we accept a loan off the Uk - we will never hear the end of it. Even talk about it seems to be resurrecting the old or below the surface Anti-Irish sentiment of the past in a certain element in the UK (I realise before anyone starts that plenty in the UK would genuinely want to help out if they could). If we accept money from the UK and it's not absolutely necessity i.e. we can get the money elsewhere at more or less the same interest rate I think it would be yet another massive mistake in this ongoing debacle. Such a loan would not imo improve relations between our countries - rather it would set it back.

Its nothing to do with "below the surface Anti-Irish sentiment", it's got to do with the fact that the brits themselves are pretty screwed financially and some politiciains over there are asking why they fcuk are we throwing away another 7 billion.

Great post jmayo.

getz

luckylucky wrote: »

If we accept a loan off the Uk - we will never hear the end of it. Even talk about it seems to be resurrecting the old or below the surface Anti-Irish sentiment of the past in a certain element in the UK (I realise before anyone starts that plenty in the UK would genuinely want to help out if they could). If we accept money from the UK and it's not absolutely necessity i.e. we can get the money elsewhere at more or less the same interest rate I think it would be yet another massive mistake in this ongoing debacle. Such a loan would not imo improve relations between our countries - rather it would set it back.

anti-irish sentiment in the UK,you must be joking, there is plenty of anti-british sentiment in ireland ,thats for sure,the UK is offering ireland money because they have a vested interest in a stable irish economy,the UK exports more to ireland than it does to india or china,the EU is in crisis,first greece,spain,italy,portugal,now ireland,and the next one is going to be belgium,germany is also having a slow down in its economy,people are no longer buying their expensive cars,take the british money ireland,its only a matter of time before the EU collapses,then it will every man for himself, at least ireland will have britain to back them up.

luckylucky

getz wrote: »

anti-irish sentiment in the UK,you must be joking, there is plenty of anti-british sentiment in ireland.

There is both - albeit less so than decades ago. There is also a lot of pro-Irish sentiment in the Uk and pro-British sentiment in Ireland also. On a lighter note - one of the few countries that both countries can respectively be virtually guaranteed to get a vote from in the eurovison.

I just fear that this potential British loan which would only be a fraction of the overall loan will have many negative repercussions. It's not going to go down well with people in the UK even if it makes economic sense for them when the man in the street there is already getting hit by their own cutbacks.

getz

luckylucky wrote: »

There is both - albeit less so than decades ago. There is also a lot of pro-Irish sentiment in the Uk and pro-British sentiment in Ireland also. On a lighter note - one of the few countries that both countriescan respectively be virtually guaranteed to get a vote from in the eurovison.

I just fear that this potential British loan which would only be a fraction of the overall loan will have many negative repercussions. It's not going to go down well with people in the UK even if it makes economic sense for them when the man in the street there is already getting hit by their own cutbacks.

most people in the UK are happy with it,remember nearly one third of us have a irish family or irish ancestor,the only ones i could imagine who may be against it would be in northern ireland,so far in the british news media ,its gone down well,

luckylucky

getz wrote: »

most people in the UK are happy with it,remember nearly one third of us have a irish family or irish ancestor,the only ones i could imagine who may be against it would be in northern ireland,so far in the british news media ,its gone down well,

Maybe it's as you say but that wasn't the vibe I was getting from the comments on the news stories on www.skynews.com

Beefy78

luckylucky wrote: »

Maybe it's as you say but that wasn't the vibe I was getting from the comments on the news stories on www.skynews.com

Don't mistake a reluctance to see any British money go abroad at a time when hundreds of thousands of public sector workers are being made redundant, kids are being told they'll need to find the best part of £50,000 to go to University and benefits are being slashed across the board with any significant anti-Irish feeling. The reaction would be exactly the same were this Belgium, France, Holland or anyone else.

As unpopular an opinion as it tends to be when aired over here, most Brits feel pretty positively towards their neighbours to the West.

Bob_Latchford

luckylucky wrote: »

Maybe it's as you say but that wasn't the vibe I was getting from the comments on the news stories on www.skynews.com

Would not take skynews as representative of UK public opinion. As others have said the links, family, economic and cultural run deep between the 2 countries.

UK are acting in self interest but would take the "friend in need" comment at face value.

getz

luckylucky wrote: »

Maybe it's as you say but that wasn't the vibe I was getting from the comments on the news stories on www.skynews.com

big problem i have with [political] sky news is rupert murdoch,[american citizen]has never been a EU lover,notice only the posts against the loan offer on his web has been posted,and even then there is only three, considering there is 60 million of us and only the anti-brigade make all the noise, i will settle for three,

SharpshooterTom

The Daily Mail has gone absolutley ballastic.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1331870/IRELAND-BAILOUT-Every-family-Britain-pay-300.html#comments

A lot anti-irish sentiments, a few bringing up the troubles. Yep.

Most of them all little englanders anyway and would equally have go at Scots (which they do regularly) and the Welsh if somehow could happen to them.

Fianna Downfall

Gnobe wrote: »

The Daily Mail has gone absolutley ballastic.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1331870/IRELAND-BAILOUT-Every-family-Britain-pay-300.html#comments

A lot anti-irish sentiments, a few bringing up the troubles. Yep.

Most of them all little englanders anyway and would equally have go at Scots (which they do regularly) and the Welsh if somehow could happen to them.

Incredible stuff.

PCros

Gnobe wrote: »

The Daily Mail has gone absolutley ballastic.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1331870/IRELAND-BAILOUT-Every-family-Britain-pay-300.html#comments

A lot anti-irish sentiments, a few bringing up the troubles. Yep.

Most of them all little englanders anyway and would equally have go at Scots (which they do regularly) and the Welsh if somehow could happen to them.

The Daily Mail is a rag of a paper which runs headlines about the X Factor etc.

The people reading that are so thick they dont realise we will be paying that 7bn back with interest therefore they will be making money.

Beefy78

Jesus. The Daily Mail, and the lowest-common denominator that they attract, are an embarrassment to the UK.There is plenty of ammo for them to use in terms of attacking this move, and it makes great headlines for them. The fact remains though that this would be the case whichever country it was who had been offered this loan.

ctrl-alt-delete

jmayo wrote: »

To all ff members and ff supporters,
I would like to thank fianna fáil "The Republican Party" for arranging the ever so symbolic event where we as an independent nation and former British colony have to accept a loan from Britain in order to survive as a "somewhat" legitimate economic entity.

Ahh come on now,

You really think this loan is being offered to help just us? The British are offering us this money, because if we go bust, they go bust, simple as that.

PCros

jmayo wrote: »

I can't wait for your next election slogan.
Perhaps it will be a "Nation once again - under the crown" ?

Hmm you do realise all they are doing is giving us a loan?

You seem to imply that they are invading us.....

spank_inferno

whatever about the "Little englanders" in the Daily Mail there is an awafull lot of "little Irelanders" spouting nonsence here!

SharpshooterTom

spank_inferno wrote: »

whatever about the "Little englanders" in the Daily Mail there is an awafull lot of "little Irelanders" spouting nonsence here!

Agreed. There's mutual hatred.

jmayo

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

Ahh come on now,

You really think this loan is being offered to help just us? The British are offering us this money, because if we go bust, they go bust, simple as that.

Oh I know damm well it is to help themselves not us.
Did I say anywhere it was to help just us ?
I am lamenting the fact that we need Britain to come and help save us and indirectly themselves due to us.

Check out my posts elsewhere and you will see I notice for instance how RBS, affectively owned by British state, has huge exposure to Ireland and then factor in level of trade that UK does with Ireland.

If Ireland goes bust it will not alone hit Britain, but the entire Eurozone, the entire EU and probably the entire bloody world at this stage.

But how does that take away from the fact that they have to offer us a loan to try and keep our economy and our banking infrastructure afloat ?


I must ask why are you trying to SPIN this that it is UKs problem and not just ours.

Who created the environment that makes it necessary for our nearest neighbour to offer us loan to help us stay afloat ?
Are you saying it is their fault ?

PCros wrote: »

Hmm you do realise all they are doing is giving us a loan?

You seem to imply that they are invading us.....

I know it is a loan, but loans in the real world and not the ff world where they are digouts or dumped on the unconnected taxpayers, have to repaid.
It is not a loan we are taking by choice, it is a loan we have to take out of necessity and that is big difference.

Oh and I know you may not spin this that we don't have to take a loan form Britain we can get it elsewhere which is true.
But that does not take away from my ultimate point that we are now so scrwewed by ff that we have to take loans from somewhere in order to stay alfoat.

Never said they were invading us.

But I thought I would drop that last comment in just to remind all those out there who vote for ff based on their republican credentials.

They no longer should be termed a Republican Party since they have sold out the republic to such an extent that our economic decisions and destiny is now decided by outsiders including the UK.


BTW before anyone starts complaining I am anti British I am definetly not in this case.
I know they are doing this for their own reasons, but they appear to be damm generous if anything.
And I know damm well if the boot was on the other foot we would be laughing at them and there would be huge calls for us to tell them to efff off.

dublinjock

I just dont get you lot in Ireland. What is it with you?
It seems too me that Ireland is bankrupt and you have been offerd a loan yet you complain about the people giving it to you.
Well what can be done instead?
The Uk loaning you 7 Billion and people are going on about the famine and the war 88 years go.
Ok all the eu and uk are evil and after your money to destroy you all more.
So please do tell me your options with out taking out a loan?
Please what can you do id love to know?

luckylucky

dublinjock wrote: »

I just dont get you lot in Ireland. What is it with you?
It seems too me that Ireland is bankrupt and you have been offerd a loan yet you complain about the people giving it to you.
Well what can be done instead?
The Uk loaning you 7 Billion and people are going on about the famine and the war 88 years go.
Ok all the eu and uk are evil and after your money to destroy you all more.
So please do tell me your options with out taking out a loan?
Please what can you do id love to know?

Hardly the overall direction of this thread in all fairness. I think it would be generally acceptable to most Irish people that Ireland and in particular the banking institutions, the government and let's be honest at least to some extent as a people in general are to a large extent to blame for our own problems. I'm not a raving red socialist or anything but it also shows the flaws of unchecked capitalism also.

What looks certain alright is Ireland needs a hefty loan. My specific worry about taking a loan from the UK is how it would affect what in recent years have been good relations between both countries. Some people have suggested it won't be a problem - I'm not so sure either way.

dermo88

The civil war and the famine are long gone. Get over it. Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand all took loans from the Japanese, and they are'nt down the pub singing about Hirohito and his henchmen are they?

It could also be the British way of getting rid of Northern Ireland, and by stealth, causing unification. I know this much, its hardly out of charitable goodness. Its because if Ireland goes down, then they will be dragged into the mess also.

The only risk is that it is a Sterling denominated loan, and the Sterling Euro rate is around 85 pence today. If the contagion in the Eurozone spreads to Portugal (definitely next), then Spain, then Sterling will recover to upwards to 75 pence to the Euro (its pre crisis rate). The difference on 7 Billion Euro is at least 1.1 Billion, and thats before interest rates are factored in.

I suspect the hand of Peter Sutherland, chairman of Goldman Sachs is involved in this somewhere. Destroy the Euro, ensure continued US Dollar hegemony.

luckylucky

dermo88 wrote: »

The civil war and the famine are long gone. Get over it.

Looks like you need to get over it!
The famine has not actually been a factor whatsover in this thread. So if you had bothered to read the 3 comments which mentioned the famine.

One was 'in there before someone mentions the famine', the second was some sort of a famine-denial comment and the third was a statement to say let's not talk about the famine.

That was it!
So please just coz you see the word famine - don't just think that old chestnut again.

sunshinediver

If you want to know what countries have the most to lose if our banks default then simply look at those offering us loans. The top 4 are

Germany (via EU bailout) Many german banks exposed - Possibly via wreckless lending

France (via EU bailout) Primarily BNP Paribas exposed

UK (Primarily RBS exposed - which would become UK tax payers problem thanks to nationalisation) We're also they're biggest trading partner, a drop in domestic consumption in Ireland will mean people in UK lose jobs.

Sweden (numerous smaller banks exposed) Already supporting iceland.

They're not doing it because they like us. It's very easy to overlook how interconnected European banking is. When one has a problem they all do.

Dorcha

If the EU and the IMF are offering us a “bailout”, then I presume they are offering enough money for the purpose (to bolster confidence in the banks, basically). Why then would we need extra loans from Sweden and Britain? Something is happening here that I just don’t understand.

And after all their denial of a “bailout” being needed, the government have now gone even further in the other direction and are more or less saying that they will accept the loans from Britain and Sweden as well. Someone please explain it to me.

LordSutch

luckylucky wrote: »

If we accept a loan off the Uk - we will never hear the end of it. Even talk about it seems to be resurrecting the old or below the surface Anti-Irish sentiment of the past in a certain element in the UK (I realise before anyone starts that plenty in the UK would genuinely want to help out if they could). If we accept money from the UK and it's not absolutely necessity i.e. we can get the money elsewhere at more or less the same interest rate I think it would be yet another massive mistake in this ongoing debacle. Such a loan would not imo improve relations between our countries - rather it would set it back.

If we accept a loan off the Uk - we will never hear the end of it. Huh?

I suspect that refusing the bilateral loan from Mr Osborne will not be an option (if cleared by Westminster), the UK banks are so mixed up in this mess that the UK has no option but to inject the £7 Billion, otherwise the contagion could spread to Britain, which in turn would then be an even bigger disaster for her closest trading partner 'Ireland'. Britain & Ireland need each other economically, and they need to help out each other in this crisis, for the greater good of both economies & (interlinked) banking sectors.

kaiser sauze

Osborne making a statement about this right now on SkyNews.

I believe we will get a definitive figure for The UK element of the plan.

mojesius

UK Chancellor's Commons speech is on Sky News right now.

kaiser sauze

Under €100Bn...

1/3 IMF...2/3 EU

kaiser sauze

Bilateral loan, outside the EFSF...

kaiser sauze

Feck, no figure, Cowen and his muppets are determined to make sure we don't hear the figure until they want us to.

ArtSmart

Ireland spend 16 billion on British goods/services, a year.

it's not a loan, it's a 'facility'.

their exposure is 5 billion through RBS.

Brenireland

this is all so very sad,the British government want to give us a loan..But the thing is if they are willing to help us they are also helping this joke we call "europe".

Many of England's conservatives have made the argument that the english people should not have to fork out to save the Euro when clearly it would be much better for everyone if the euro with bang!,then we would be back with our lovely british pounds!

I feel this current financial episode is proof that we don't have the ability to control what small country we have and that perhaps we should go back under english rule and back under the common wealth

luckylucky

LordSutch wrote: »

If we accept a loan off the Uk - we will never hear the end of it. Huh?

I suspect that refusing the bilateral loan from Mr Osborne will not be an option (if cleared by Westminster), the UK banks are so mixed up in this mess that the UK has no option but to inject the £7 Billion, otherwise the contagen could spread to Britain, which in turn would then be an even bigger disaster for her closest trading partner 'Ireland'. Britain & Ireland need each other economically, and they need to help out each other in this crisis, for the greater good of both economies & (interlinked) banking sectors.

Why the confusion. You honestly telling me that for years to come it won't be something that the Irish, particularly the Irish in Britain will not hear time and time again.

There's already fury being demonstrated by at least some of the British public as can be seen on the Sky News and Dailymail threads (although I haven't bothered to look at the dailymail stuff - so I am taking other peoples word for it) and rants aside about how we didn't help during WW2 etc etc I'm not even saying a certain amount of fury is unjustified.

Although a large sum. Britain's 7 billion is only about 10% of the overall sort of sum being talked about. I hear what your saying nonetheless that refusal might not really be an option. Nonetheless I have a feeling that if it's sorted out within the Eurozone perhaps it's for the best for all concerned, if the people of Britain aren't clearly behind this loan and I'm not seeing much evidence that they are then perhaps it shouldn't happen.