The Socialist Party's 10 Point Plan to fix the economy.

Lockstep

From here

Shut down Anglo Irish Bank
The bailout of Anglo Irish Bank is set to cost the taxpayer between €29.3 billion and €34.3 billion according to the Government and up to €40 billion according to some economists. The bank should be closed down immediately and the losses should be taken by bondholders, private banks who lent to Anglo and wealthy depositors. The same applies to the Irish Nationwide Building Society.

Nationalise the banks under the democratic control of working people
AIB, Bank of Ireland and other banks should be nationalised. The banks should be amalgamated into one state bank with jobs guaranteed and employment provided for Anglo and INBS staff. The boards should be sacked. A new board under the democratic control of working people should be established including elected representatives from the workplace and representatives elected from society as a whole.
End the bank bailouts which could end up costing as much as €90 billion - redirect this investment to job creation and protecting social services. Bondholders and private lenders from the banking world should be given no guarantee of repayment. The bank should gear its resources and future profits towards reducing mortgages (all mortgages should be brought in line with current house valuations), defending jobs and providing cheap credit to small business and individuals.

For an emergency programme of socially useful public works
Under capitalism schools are unbuilt, communities are left without centres, health, sport and youth facilities and masses of homes are uninsulated at the same time as huge numbers of construction workers languish on the dole. End this contradiction by launching a socially useful programme of public works to employ construction workers at trade union rates of pay.

For a 35 hour week without loss of pay
It makes no sense to have people working 39 hours a week plus overtime at the same time that 450,000 people are on the dole. Cut the working week to 35 hours without loss in pay and share out the work among the unemployed. This would create 165,000 jobs. It costs an average of €20,000 per annum in dole payments and lost income tax revenue to keep a person unemployed for a year. Measures which take a quarter of a million people off the dole could save the taxpayer up to €5 billion and this money should be used to finance the emergency programme of socially useful public works.

For a progressive tax system
33,000 Irish millionaires own €133 billion wealth. The taxation system should be changed, not by bringing the lowest paid into the tax net, but by forcing this elite to pay their fair share. A hefty wealth tax should be introduced; tax loopholes for the rich abolished and corporation tax significantly increased. No to property tax on the family home and to water charges.

Abolish sky-high pay rates
The Taoiseach is paid €228,000 per annum. A government minister is paid €191,000 per annum. A Supreme Court judge is paid €257,872 per annum. These sky-high wages and others should be abolished along with perks such as the ministerial car fleet. This should be done, not to “set an example” to encourage ordinary people to accept austerity, but to strike a blow at a viciously unequal capitalist society.

Reverse the cuts
Not only are massive cutbacks an assault on the “social wage”, striking hardest at working people and the poor, they are also severely deflationary with the potential to cripple the economy as pointed out recently by the ESRI. Every €1 billion in cuts is estimated to shave €500 million off economic growth for the following year. Use the new tax revenues accruing from the introduction of a progressive tax system to stop the flow of cutbacks and reverse all the cuts of recent years.

No to privatisation
The author of the An Bord Snip Nua report, right-wing economist Colm McCarthy, has been put in charge of a review of state assets and this is, no doubt, a prelude to proposals for privatisation on a massive scale. It makes no sense whatsoever to privatise when the private sector is responsible for the crisis in the first place. We need more nurses, teachers, doctors andsocial workers. Public sector employment should be increased not cut!

End the rule of the market
Capitalism has failed spectacularly - 450,000 on the dole, a banking disaster and €15 billion in cuts on the way. If capitalism cannot afford to provide jobs, decent living standards, decent social services and a future then the working class cannot afford capitalism. This system needs to be ended. Nationalise the banks, the building industry and all the major companies which dominate the economy under the democratic control of working people and use their profits to meet the needs of the people.

For a socialist plan of production, in Ireland and internationally
Gear the economy towards meeting the needs of ordinary people not the superprofits of the capitalist elite. Match unused resources with social need - e.g. finishing “ghost estates” to tackle massive social housing waiting lists. Instead of bailing out banks use state funding and state industry to end unemployment.
End the rule of capitalism internationally and the power of unelected financial “markets” to bully millions of people, and entire countries. For a socialist Europe instead of a capitalist European Union. Instead of the anarchy of the market with its catastrophic rollercoaster of boom and slump, plan the world economy rationally to end poverty, starvation, mass unemployment and vicious social inequality.

Was reading the SP plan to get us out of the recession.
A couple of good ideas; ending the support of Anglo-Irish, reducing pay for highly paid politicians and the closing of tax-loopholes for example.

And some utterly bizarre ones: raising corporation tax and paying workers the same to do less, with the unemployed taking up the extra hours.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

sdanseo

This isn't a socialist solution, this is a socialist attack on capitalism, they're attempting to use the current crisis to further their own agenda.

Capitalism works just fine for Ireland, it was the way in which the economy was administered which was the problem and not the fact that we have a free market. The SP need to think about getting real and less extremist if they want to have any support, because at the moment they're not far from anarchists.

Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

"And remember... a shiny new donkey for whoever brings me the head of Colonel Montoya."

I've always wondered what it'd be like, living in a banana republic.

PeakOutput

and that ladies and gentlemen is why these clowns will never ever win any sort of a significant number of seats

and we can all count our blessings on that one

Rabble Rabble

A hefty wealth tax should be introduced; tax loopholes for the rich abolished and corporation tax significantly increased. No to property tax on the family home and to water charges.

Gosh. Thats not even socialism.

mike65

Actually in most European countries that is considered socialism. Paying for what one uses, for the "common" good.

Manach

1/10 is not too bad - ie Shutting down Anglo Irish.

Colonel Sanders

I loved the one about nationalising and amalgamating banks yet not trying to achieve any economies of scale.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

senordingdong

sdonn wrote: »

This isn't a socialist solution, this is a socialist attack on capitalism, they're attempting to use the current crisis to further their own agenda.

Capitalism works just fine for Ireland, it was the way in which the economy was administered which was the problem and not the fact that we have a free market. The SP need to think about getting real and less extremist if they want to have any support, because at the moment they're not far from anarchists.

I do agree with your point about the attack, but there are one or two things on that list that I would like to see in a capitalist government.

Panrich

Although I wouldn't be a socialist, I don't think adherents of right wing parties and policies can afford to sneer this morning.

Wibbs

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Yep and the hiking up of corporation tax. Support the workers indeed. Easy to do when you've only a few left. That's a common problem with the left in general and the extreme left in particular. Great at apportioning money wisely, utterly bloody useless at earning it in the first place. The only extreme socialist that could make this kinda thing work was Mr Christ of Galilee, but he could turn a few loaves and fishes into thousands to be fair.

Lockstep

I'm not a fan of the SP and they sure as hell wouldn't be a fan of me (I was accused of being a class traitor at one point) but there are a few decent proposals there.

However, things like raising corporation tax just seem like economic suicide.

HarryPotter41

PeakOutput wrote: »

and that ladies and gentlemen is why these clowns will never ever win any sort of a significant number of seats

and we can all count our blessings on that one

The sad thing is they may. Do ya ever see the likes of Joe Higgins put out the more ridiculous parts of that in the media, no, hes too cute for that. He says all the right things to get the attention of the angry and disaffected before they realise the other policies are insane. So expect there to be a few of them in the Dail after the next election.

Apart from that fear, that manifesto gave me a good laugh on a depressing morning for this country.

Wibbs

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

The sad thing is they may. Do ya ever see the likes of Joe Higgins put out the more ridiculous parts of that in the media, no, hes too cute for that. He says all the right things to get the attention of the angry and disaffected before they realise the other policies are insane. So expect there to be a few of them in the Dail after the next election.

I agree and it does worry me. Now I like Joe as a person. He's certainly one of the few that is what he is and corrupt is not a word you would come near him with(unlike too many), but a large chunk of his policies and those of his party? Daft isn't in it. You would end up with a workers paradise with no workers, nor an incentive to create more.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Inverse to the power of one!

Once again, the socialists remind us of their complete lack of knowledge around modern economics and reassert their unwillingness to abandon the sillyness of spent politics from the last century.

It's not as if they don't have modern models of socialism to look towards on the continent. It's not as if society or people are against social improvement.....In fact Ireland has done a very good job of at least pretending to worry about the impoverished.

They just can't move away from the past, an attribute they would no doubt access the other parties of: Spanish war as opposed to Civil war one might say.

Time to put this working class malarkey to rest, one people, one economy, As a democratic society it is in all our interests to ensure accountability, transparency, and a lack of exploitation in our economy.

This isn't Marxism, this is the baseline for any country hoping to attract foreign investors in the modern world.

Boskowski

sdonn wrote: »

The SP need to think about getting real and less extremist if they want to have any support, because at the moment they're not far from anarchists.

Whatever about the feasibility of this plan, but....what?!?!

Boskowski

I guess some of the stuff just wouldn't work. Also, no mentioning of said teachers and nurses crippling the budget by being one of the highest paid in the eurozone.

However.

There is no denying the fact that the current approach has failed. How can people come out here and continue to blow the trumpet of capitalism and the sacred cow, 'the free market', when the mess it got us into is so obvious.

Especially when now all of a sudden the market doesn't apply to the main players anymore and their idiotic and reckless and greedy behaviour is going to be socialised.
Socialism always seems to apply when a mess needs cleaning up. Funny how socialism never applies when record profits are made. Profits they couldn't get quick enough out of the country and no effort is being spared avoiding to pay tax on them.

I don't care what anyone says about the current crowd that calls themselves 'socialists' and their concepts, there can be no doubt that what's currently happening is a shocker by anyones standards and even by the rules of the so-called free market.

Rabble Rabble

mike65 wrote: »

Actually in most European countries that is considered socialism. Paying for what one uses, for the "common" good.

No, I mean their opposition to those taxes is not even socialist.

P. Breathnach

sdonn wrote: »

... Capitalism works just fine for Ireland, it was the way in which the economy was administered which was the problem and not the fact that we have a free market....

Yeah. And communism is also a perfect system: it's just that it wasn't implemented correctly.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Fianna Downfall

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

But would they have bankrupt the country?

Fussgangerzone

9/10 for me, so I'd accept the whole programme. (I'm not sure about the 35 hour week plans).

Right now, we're looking at being serfs to the financial sector for the next few decades, at the cost of infrastructure, health, education and justice. Broadly speaking, **** that for a game of soldiers.

Don't forget, it was socialists that got us a country in the first place. It's not their fault that the new country ended up being run by a shower of crooks and wasters for for most of it's existence.

Sleepy

Wow. Would that even achieve an E in Oridnary Level Leaving Certificate Economics?

Wibbs

Fianna Downfall wrote: »

But would they have bankrupt the country?

Maybe not, but the country would have been so dirt poor it wouldn't have much of a difference.

Fussgangerzone

Sleepy wrote: »

Wow. Would that even achieve an E in Oridnary Level Leaving Certificate Economics?

No probably not, but then, our existing approach has been given the gold star and a kiss on the cheek by corporate economists and free market advocates, nation and world-wide. And look where that got us.

So f**k the consensus.

c_man

For a 35 hour week without loss of pay
It makes no sense to have people working 39 hours a week plus overtime at the same time that 450,000 people are on the dole. Cut the working week to 35 hours without loss in pay and share out the work among the unemployed. This would create 165,000 jobs. It costs an average of €20,000 per annum in dole payments and lost income tax revenue to keep a person unemployed for a year. Measures which take a quarter of a million people off the dole could save the taxpayer up to €5 billion and this money should be used to finance the emergency programme of socially useful public works.

Cut the amount of hours a person works, while presumably cutting their wages by the appropriate amount, to bring in an outsider. So have a job that requires one person being done by two. Wow!

Not to mention the sheer idiocy of this in relation to various industries. Say I work in computer programming. The project I'm on involves detailed knowledge of the problem area, not to mention that I've no doubt been involved in the requirements gathering, system design and specification... Now I presume I'd have to drag in someone, train them up on everything and off they go. You can't just place a brickie into a lawyers office or a scientist into a garage. Typically socialist thinking, we all don't work in big factories guys!

Fussgangerzone

c_man wrote: »

Cut the amount of hours a person works, while presumably cutting their wages by the appropriate amount, to bring in an outsider. So have a job that requires one person being done by two. Wow!

Not to mention the sheer idiocy of this in relation to various industries. Say I work in computer programming. The project I'm on involves detailed knowledge of the problem area, not to mention that I've no doubt been involved in the requirements gathering, system design and specification... Now I presume I'd have to drag in someone, train them up on everything and off they go. You can't just place a brickie into a lawyers office or a scientist into a garage. Typically socialist thinking, we all don't work in big factories guys!

I work in web, and even do some programming. Unpaid overtime is endemic. At the same time, there are thousands of graduates out there, crying out for work and not getting it, despite their enthusiasm, relative knowledge, and increasingly, more up-to-date skill-set.

If I could work a 35 hour week and have some graduate pick up the shortfall, I would. I have enough common sense to identify what parts they'd be able for, to leave them accordingly. And a good coder writes in a way where anybody can come in, read the code, and understand it. If they get stuck, let them ring me, I'll answer the phone.

Nobody is talking about putting a brickie into a lawyers office, don't be silly. The country is full of qualified people without jobs, where their sector is overworking the people they do employ. Top to bottom, pick a sector, it's happening.

southsiderosie

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

The sad thing is they may. Do ya ever see the likes of Joe Higgins put out the more ridiculous parts of that in the media, no, hes too cute for that. He says all the right things to get the attention of the angry and disaffected before they realise the other policies are insane. So expect there to be a few of them in the Dail after the next election.

Apart from that fear, that manifesto gave me a good laugh on a depressing morning for this country.

I first came to Ireland during the MEP campaign in 2009 and I remember walking around Dublin and laughing at his 1980-s style campaign posters, which contrasted sharply with the slick glossy color posters from the main parties. Yet he won. And what I heard afterwards to a (wo)man was that people may not agree with him, but at least they knew he would be honest.

I think that 80% of what is on that list is a disaster. But at least Higgins and the socialists are not talking out of their asses about what they want to do with the government. Labour may be laughing today, but the dogs in the street know that the Croke Park agreement will have to be shredded, and they are going to have to take a realistic position on it sooner or later. After the shower of bull**** coming from the government this week (or over the last two years, to be accurate), I think the electorate may be at a point where they can appreciate honesty, even if they disagree with it. I don't think Labour is up to the task.

Higgins wants to get back into the Dail, and it will be interesting to see what happens in the GE.

coolemon

Donegalfella:

In a genuinely free-market environment, the banks would have been a lot more cautious about who they lent to, and for what. The property bubble was a classic case of crony capitalism, not free-market economics—and contrary to popular representations, the two are not the same.

Nonsense. Tens of thousands of small to medium size developers operated during the celtic Tiger period and now find themselves without a 'bailout' and heavily in debt.

Their decisons were made within the contextual realm of the free market (nobody to bail them out/state intervention) and they made a balls of it. They were not 'a lot more cautious' - rather, they were as reckless as anyone. They anticipated continuous inflation of property and its demand and they got it wrong. Thats a religion your holding onto there donegallfella.

What we need is the rational planning of economic resources and the coordination of production, and in particular with fundamental needs such as housing. Not market anarchy. An anarchy that has Ireland, and indeed the world, on a road to self destruction and environmental catastrophe.

More state intervention (or indeed, market subversion without state intervention), and not less!

southsiderosie

coolemon wrote: »

Nonsense. Tens of thousands of small to medium size developers operated during the celtic Tiger period and now find themselves without a 'bailout' and heavily in debt.

Their decisons were made within the contextual realm of the free market (nobody to bail them out/state intervention) and they made a balls of it. They were not 'a lot more cautious' - rather, they were as reckless as anyone. They anticipated continuous inflation of property and its demand and they got it wrong. Thats a religion your holding onto there donegallfella.

What we need is the rational planning of economic resources and the coordination of production, and in particular with fundamental needs such as housing. Not market anarchy. An anarchy that has Ireland, and indeed the world, on a road to self destruction and environmental catastrophe.

More state intervention (or indeed, market subversion without state intervention), and not less!

Ah-ha, but here is where local government, not national government fell down. Zoning and planning are local functions. Certainly loose credit was an issue, but how many development permits were actually turned down during the boom? And how many local councils raised serious concerns about infrastructure or sustainable development?

Honestly, 90% of people in banking, local, and national government completely lost their minds over the last ten years. I don't believe in an unfettered free market, but the issue for Ireland is that there were existing laws and tools that could have been used to curb some of the excesses of the last decade, but nobody could be arsed to haul the toolbox out of the attic.

Manach

I'm agreeing with Dongelfella. It is the epitome of market driven companies - the MNCs- present in Ireland that are driving the export sector. State intervention shows up their ineffective use of public money and their support of out-dated modes of production which are Union heavy but effeciency light.

Fussgangerzone

HarryPotter41 wrote: »

The sad thing is they may. Do ya ever see the likes of Joe Higgins put out the more ridiculous parts of that in the media, no, hes too cute for that. He says all the right things to get the attention of the angry and disaffected before they realise the other policies are insane. So expect there to be a few of them in the Dail after the next election.

Apart from that fear, that manifesto gave me a good laugh on a depressing morning for this country.

Joe Higgins is unequivocally an outspoken socialist, and all his campaign media was a lot redder than the 10 point plan above. And he got a seat in the EP.

He does go into great detail in debates on policy when it's called for. The rest of the time he's cagey, because FF think if they can accuse him of trying to take everyone's cars away, they've won the argument, no matter what was being argued.

Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I laid this out in my opening post.

kickoutthejams wrote:

A couple of good ideas; ending the support of Anglo-Irish, reducing pay for highly paid politicians and the closing of tax-loopholes for example.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Boskowski

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I don't think I follow.

Are you saying if the market had been more free this wouldn't have happened? Are you saying less state intervention?

southsiderosie

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

They deserve credit for raising the issue of politicians pay, since nobody else in the Irish political system seems willing to. When Latvia made cuts of over 25% in the public sector, at least their PM was willing to say that the cuts should start at the top, and he slashed his pay and that of the legislature. Call it populism if you want, but there is both social and moral (and political) value in public representatives subjecting themselves to the same processes - even if from a much loftier position - as everyone else.

Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I know you see me as little different from these guys but I'm not going to decry a valid point, merely because it's part of the Socialist Party manifesto.

They might not be things which the SP came up with, but they are still extremely valid points. Our politicians are overpaid and one of the reasons you have endorsed a flat tax in the past, is the need to end tax loopholes and their exploitation.
Ensuring the need for some form of banks is a grand idea but not in the areas of commercial banking and property-lending like Anglo-Irish. Bank bailouts are an economic black hole and really isn't something the State should be having much involvement with, would you agree with this?

I know you're on the political right but I'm surprised that you can just give a blanket dismissal of these policies. There are a couple of things which pretty much any sensible person can agree with.

Keep in mind I find 90% of the plan to be hogwash.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Boskowski

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Look , I'm all for this free market idea extending to failure. I say either one way or the other. But not one way (capitalism) when it suits (profits) and the other (state intervention) when things go sour (losses). So I'm all with you on this.

But...

I think your idea of the implicit state bailout is all wrong though. There is no implicit state bailout as in 'our buddies will look after us'.

There is an implicit state bailout because the banks are basically providing the infrastructure for the free market and with the banks failing it would put the functioning of the free market itself in jeopardy.

It's this concept of 'too big to fail'.

Less state intervention is not going to change that. Once the banks become so big that they basically run the show they are holding as vital a position in society as - say - ESB does. Would not be more state intervention what's required here?

Amhran Nua

Wibbs wrote: »

Great at apportioning money wisely

Utterly bloody useless at that, too.

kaiser sauze

Panrich wrote: »

Although I wouldn't be a socialist, I don't think adherents of right wing parties and policies can afford to sneer this morning.

True.

Boskowski wrote: »

I don't think I follow.

Are you saying if the market had been more free this wouldn't have happened? Are you saying less state intervention?

State intervention or proper regulation, there is a big difference.

southsiderosie

Boskowski wrote: »

Look , I'm all for this free market idea extending to failure. I say either one way or the other. But not one way (capitalism) when it suits (profits) and the other (state intervention) when things go sour (losses). So I'm all with you on this.

But...

I think your idea of the implicit state bailout is all wrong though. There is no implicit state bailout as in 'our buddies will look after us'.

There is an implicit state bailout because the banks are basically providing the infrastructure for the free market and with the banks failing it would put the functioning of the free market itself in jeopardy.

It's this concept of 'too big to fail'.

Less state intervention is not going to change that. Once the banks become so big that they basically run the show they are holding as vital a position in society as - say - ESB does. Would not be more state intervention what's required here?

Or more competition. If Santander, BBVA and JP Morgan Chase had easy access to the Irish market, then AIB could have gone down with less fuss.

However, I do think there needs to be state intervention in terms of capital requirements and tighter lending standards. After Hong Kong's real estate market imploded, their government implemented these kinds of requirements, and although they are still subject to boom and bust cycles, it has not affected mortgage repayment, because nobody is in a position to buy more than they can afford. And Hong Kong is widely considered to be the "freest" economy in the world. (I linked a great article about this a while ago, but can't seem to find it now)

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

Boskowski

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I think we're going in circles. I mean REAL state oversight & regulation.

I think we can all agree that what happened here is neither 'free market' nor proper oversight. It's the worst of both worlds.

Lockstep

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I'm open for correction on this but don't you have to be earning an fairly low amount to be ineligable for income tax.

IIRC, it's only if you're earning around €18k a year that you start paying income tax (personal tax credits and PAYE tax credits mean a single person gets €3600 of tax credits). This is something like full time, single work for a year at €9 an hour (assuming they get 2 weeks holiday and are working a 40 hours a week without any overtime)

If I remember rightly, under your flat tax scheme, you want to give each person a tax free allowance of around €15k so it's not that much of a jump.

Regardless, I can see the logic behind cutting tax loopholes.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

I know, sucks that.

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

You agree with something on the SP 10 point program? You'll be growing a goatee and sharpening your hammer and sickle next. :pac:

southsiderosie

Boskowski wrote: »

I think we're going in circles. I mean REAL state oversight & regulation.

I think we can all agree that what happened here is neither 'free market' nor proper oversight. It's the worst of both worlds.

Well I think that is the problem in a nutshell. The government sold an American-style investor-friendly Ireland abroad and a (low cost) Swedish-style welfare state at home. This was never bound to end well.

sarumite

kaiser sauze

Off topic