Will the IMF take the chainsaw to the Croke Park Agreement???

HellFireClub

It seems that the game is up for this other pathethic instance of people pleasing and pandering that we are so fond of doing in Ireland, namely the Croke Park Agreement.

I reckon we will now start seeing widespread mobilisation of unions and their members members out into public protests, now of course that their members interests are going to have to be diminished in the national interest...

And they were like mice for the last two years, in the full knowledge that a floor had been placed under their "contribution"...

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dvpower

HellFireClub wrote: »

I reckon we will now start seeing widespread mobilisation of unions and their members members out into public protests, now of course that their members interests are going to have to be diminished in the national interest...

Sawing off the branch they're sitting on.

RichardAnd

The IMF haven't got the power to tamper with state agreements so no, they will not be taking a chain saw to the Croke Park Deal nor anything else. However, as to whether or not the CPD will be re considered by the state in light of what it seems will happen in the coming months, well in my opinion the answer is yes.

You see, I believe the CPD was nothing but filling a crack in the wall with pulped newspaper; it bought some time but it was never going to last. Look at it in detail, it promised no wage cuts, no redundancies and (most absurd of all) it promises that staff on wages below a certain level will actually get money from any savings made as "reimbursements".

No one could expect something like that to last when the state is broke. The CPD was made to shut the unions up and give PS workers something to distract them for a few months. It won't make it past the budget without being revised in some way. Expect strikes in the new year.

HellFireClub

RichardAnd wrote: »

The IMF haven't got the power to tamper with state agreements so no, they will not be taking a chain saw to the Croke Park Deal nor anything else. However, as to whether or not the CPD will be re considered by the state in light of what it seems will happen in the coming months, well in my opinion the answer is yes.

You see, I believe the CPD was nothing but filling a crack in the wall with pulped newspaper; it bought some time but it was never going to last. Look at it in detail, it promised no wage cuts, no redundancies and (most absurd of all) it promises that staff on wages below a certain level will actually get money from any savings made as "reimbursements".

No one could expect something like that to last when the state is broke. The CPD was made to shut the unions up and give PS workers something to distract them for a few months. It won't make it past the budget without being revised in some way. Expect strikes in the new year.

The IMF seem to operate on the basis of releasing agreed funds in traches, and waiting for reform in very particular areas, before transfering a particular trache of money to the country in question. So while they cannot specifically do away with the CPD, then can target it as something that is flagged for reform and wait for that reform to take place before they hand over funds.

Personally I think we should be throwing palm branches out in front of these guys as they walk around the city, they might just be able to save us from ourselves I think...

spyderski

Hope so....

ardmacha

I am sure some sociologist will be able to analyse this schadenfreude, which hopes that the government representing them will break an agreement made only a few months ago. Public expenditure and taxation returns etc are proceeding pretty much exactly as predicted at the time of the agreement. The main change is in relation to banks liabilities, and the likelihood is that FF knew full well about these when making the agreement. Yet when their lies are exposed and the democratic government is beholden to foreigners there is not condemnation of the government crooks or empathy for those deceived by them but rather glee that others will now suffer as a consequence. Is it any wonder than people have given up on this State.

spyderski

I'm afraid a lot of people in the private sector have given up on seeing the public sector face up to reality.

Before you blow up, I accept that this is a generalisation, and there are some public sector workers who should be getting a raise, however Croke Park is a blanket agreement, which is unsustainable & unreasonable in the present economic climate.

Dempo1

Hopefully and i will gladly supply the petrol, while they are at it, no harm to cut a floor or two of Liberty Hall.

oppenheimer1

Dempo1 wrote: »

Hopefully and i will gladly supply the petrol, while they are at it, no harm to cut a floor or two of Liberty Hall.

While it might be nice to see the unions get their comeuppance there would be a real human tragedy if pay and numbers were slashed. Not to mention lots and lots of mortgage defaults. PS workers are more vulnerable as when they took out loans it would have ben seen as highly unlikely they would ever suffer a loss in income let alone job losses.

jimmycrackcorm

Isn't it ironic that the government feel they can play high stakes poker with the EU/IMF but they cannot stomach standing up to our unions?

markesmith

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Isn't it ironic that the government feel they can play high stakes poker with the EU/IMF but they cannot stomach standing up to our unions?

Not ironic - just really, really Irish.

WalterMitty

Garrett Fitzgerald summed it up on newstalk yesterday by saying he couldnt understand ICTU , maximising unemployment in order to keep our public servants so overpaid by EU standards.

DeVore

The unions control people who vote here. The IMF don't.

DeV.

Poly

The end is nigh for PS clip board carrying busy bodies. 30 mins off to cash a non-existent cheque FFS!

I would imagine the CPD is first thing the IMF will look at . If they are lending us money they want to see spent productively.
Union bosses can bluster all they want, this is their Waterloo.

TheUsual

IMF ?!?!?!? :rolleyes:

Why are so many idiots bringing up the IMF ???

First the European Union (this is the simple version for slow people) has stated it will step in before the IMF are necessary in Ireland. And Europe will never let the IMF take over the financial controls of a European country.

Second we do not even need the EU to step in. And even though our banks are bust, and our idiot greedy citizens with 300,000 euro mortgages are crying for buying something they can't afford, we as still viable as a country.

mistermouse

Hope they do and hope they have the power to do so. I am sure the government hoped this would get them off the case

Everyone in the country respect frontline staff such as Nurses etc. Most in the country know the PS unions are using these staff as pawns and are acting beyond selfish and unpatriotic.

If the public sector dont reform and reform their unions too then they are all culpable and then deserve to eat their crumbs rather than cake.

The Croke Park Agreement and those who negotiated it on both sides hold no credibility

Poly

TheUsual wrote: »

Why are so many idiots bringing up the IMF ???

Because they are sitting in Merrion st. sharpening their axes. What do you think they're for?

Count Dooku

No details yet

Public servants face pay and job cuts as the IMF moves in

TheUsual

Poly wrote: »

Because they are sitting in Merrion st. sharpening their axes. What do you think they're for?

If you knew anything about politics you would know the EU will step in before the IMF and the EU have not been called in. Neither will will called in ... ever. End of class children.
I am getting tired explaining the real world to kids.

Poly

TheUsual wrote: »

If you knew anything about politics you would know the EU will step in before the IMF and the EU have not been called in. Neither will will called in ... ever. End of class children.
I am getting tired explaining the real world to kids.

I see what you’re doing, you’re using cowen speak, just to point out, right now the IMF are having their breakfast in the Merrion hotel.

Poly

TheUsual wrote: »

If you knew anything about politics you would know the EU will step in before the IMF and the EU have not been called in. Neither will will called in ... ever. End of class children.
I am getting tired explaining the real world to kids.

still in denial?

"BRIAN LENIHAN last night admitted Ireland would need an EU-IMF bailout after the Government spent the best part of a week firmly downplaying the possibility."

http://www.irishexaminer.com/home/proclamation-of-dependence-136950.html

Mister men

Croke park is finished. It's only a matter of how much the PS lose in jobs and pay now. They should have made proper cuts whilst they had the chance.

P. Breathnach

DeVore wrote: »

The unions control people who vote here....

It's the other way round: the unions are democratically organised, and are controlled by their members.

CiaranC

TheUsual wrote: »

If you knew anything about politics you would know the EU will step in before the IMF and the EU have not been called in. Neither will will called in ... ever. End of class children.
I am getting tired explaining the real world to kids.

lol

STILL in denial

Nody

TheUsual wrote: »

If you knew anything about politics you would know the EU will step in before the IMF and the EU have not been called in. Neither will will called in ... ever. End of class children.
I am getting tired explaining the real world to kids.

You are aware that the EU bailout for Greece involved IMF as well right? Any new bailout will involve IMF but not as a 100% bailout; why? Because that gives a nice scapegoat for EU (and the local government) to point to for all the hard cuts that needs to be done (with or with out IMF). Oh we don't want to but the big bad IMF makes us do it so please vote for us again!

wellboytoo

Yes it will mean the end of the CPA thank God and hopefully we will get some decisions made on good solid economic grounds , rather than the pressure group driven decisions this country has been run by since Christ was a young fella. I for one welcome the EU/IMF in the hope we will see some logical decision making albeit painful and get rid of the enormous waste in this country.

sunshinediver

Poly wrote: »

Because they are sitting in Merrion st. sharpening their axes. What do you think they're for?

The Bailout if we get one will be from a JOINT EU/IMF fund whereby the majority of funds will come from the EU

As previously stated the EU have asked the IMF to be involved in discussions as they have no experience in dealing with matters like this before.

A quick read of todays papers will show that a large EU/IMF team are in Dublin, it's not solely IMF.

Some people should really do some more background reading before posting on here.

sunshinediver

Mister men wrote: »

Croke park is finished. It's only a matter of how much the PS lose in jobs and pay now. They should have made proper cuts whilst they had the chance.

You do realise that cuts will affect you too? IF there was a sole IMF intervention funding for all state agencies would be slashed by up to 30%. Yes public service wages will be reduced and probably a lot of redundancies which i'm sure will delight you, However you will also see...

A direct reduction in the quality of education your kids receive due to over crowded classrooms and no funding to hire more teachers.

A direct reduction in the quality of healthcare you recieve as hospitals become even more overcrowded.

Your car will be destroyed from driving over streets full of potholes as the councils don't have money for repair.

Less money for public transport,

Less money for community projects/local sports clubs.

the list goes on,

Yes the CPA would be done away with but thats not all, You shouldn't cut off your nose to spite your face.

Avgas

Is Croke Park Toast?

Yes would be my guess BUT remember public sector salaries will be cut anyhow by higher income and other taxes. And unlike people in the private sector, the scope for most state workers to dodge/fiddle tax through endemic private sector creative accounting is rather more limited (unless your senior management level and then you are in the Rolls Royce/untouchable class anyhow)

Rather than looking for more cuts in basic PS pay and salaries, perhaps to make a long term dent in public finances what the IMF will want to see are a mix of compulsory/voluntary redundancies-as the UK are rolling out. That is were the game has moved on to.

Finally, if Irish people want to scapegoat the public sector and fire thousands of teachers, nurses, guards, etc., then that is really fine by me. It will add thousands to the dole, and it will likely increase the number of mortgage defaults.....but sure so what?

If the ship is going down, lets see those Public Servants drown first, eh?

If Irish people don't want to pay for public services (which I admit are often poorly delivered, represent bad value, and need a massive dose of restructuring)...then really that is fine.

You can pay for massively expensive American style private health care-think what your paying for VHI (et al.) doubled or tripled (if you can afford it)
You can pay for private security firms (or thugs) to police your gated estates
You can pay tens of thousands of Euros (or Puntnuas or Gold coins) to American style private universities which is what they would charge you for a basic undergraduate degree.
You can pay hundreds if not thousands of euros just to send your kids to private primary and secondary schools.

It is all fine really. :rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

Avgas wrote: »

Is Croke Park Toast?

Yes would be my guess BUT remember public sector salaries will be cut anyhow by higher income and other taxes. And unlike people in the private sector, the scope for most state workers to dodge/fiddle tax through endemic private sector creative accounting is rather more limited (unless your senior management level and then you are in the Rolls Royce/untouchable class anyhow)

Rather than looking for more cuts in basic PS pay and salaries, perhaps to make a long term dent in public finances what the IMF will want to see are a mix of compulsory/voluntary redundancies-as the UK are rolling out. That is were the game has moved on to.

Finally, if Irish people want to scapegoat the public sector and fire thousands of teachers, nurses, guards, etc., then that is really fine by me. It will add thousands to the dole, and it will likely increase the number of mortgage defaults.....but sure so what?

If the ship is going down, lets see those Public Servants drown first, eh?

If Irish people don't want to pay for public services (which I admit are often poorly delivered, represent bad value, and need a massive dose of restructuring)...then really that is fine.

You can pay for massively expensive American style private health care-think what your paying for VHI (et al.) doubled or tripled (if you can afford it)
You can pay for private security firms (or thugs) to police your gated estates
You can pay tens of thousands of Euros (or Puntnuas or Gold coins) to American style private universities which is what they would charge you for a basic undergraduate degree.
You can pay hundreds if not thousands of euros just to send your kids to private primary and secondary schools.

It is all fine really. :rolleyes:

Fancy having the Public average earnings come down from the current average of 904 to 650 average of the private sector? :rolleyes:

yee lot still have a long way to go

go on da IMF :P

ntlbell

Pat carey was asked this morning was a producitvity plan in place for croke park

he answered, yes.

when asked for examples e.g. a teacher, what should we expect to see.

"you'll see it in 4 years"

WTF???

ixoy

Avgas wrote: »

If Irish people don't want to pay for public services (which I admit are often poorly delivered, represent bad value, and need a massive dose of restructuring)...then really that is fine.

So aren't you saying here that we can actually get a more effecient PS for a lot better value?

Digipass

IMF?, personally, I have every faith in Tom Cruise sorting us out.
http://missionimpossible.wikia.com/wiki/Impossible_Mission_Force

BeeDI

sunshinediver wrote: »

You do realise that cuts will affect you too? IF there was a sole IMF intervention funding for all state agencies would be slashed by up to 30%. Yes public service wages will be reduced and probably a lot of redundancies which i'm sure will delight you, However you will also see...

A direct reduction in the quality of education your kids receive due to over crowded classrooms and no funding to hire more teachers.
Funny how even during the height of the spending on education, my kids come home from school and announce we have all our home work done in school, because we had 3 free classes :eek: Efficiency in the schools does not exist. With a bit of private sector style management, education quality could increase by 30% with 30% less money going in.

A direct reduction in the quality of healthcare you recieve as hospitals become even more overcrowded. Ditto education.

Your car will be destroyed from driving over streets full of potholes as the councils don't have money for repair. Round my area potholes never really got fixed anyway, so nothing changes there. We managed before. We will manage now.

Less money for public transport,. . Last time I saw a bus or used one was in London. No change there

Less money for community projects/local sports clubs. The GAA, will go from strength to strength .......... community spirit, volunteer soldiers on the ground, will be stronger in a recession than in a BOOM. Government and public service, could learn from the work ethic, organisational ability, financial nous, etc of the GAA.

the list goes on, What about the list of cock ups, failures, mismanaged projects of public administration in the boom?

Yes the CPA would be done away with but thats not all, You shouldn't cut off your nose to spite your face.

Sad part is that public service workers at the low end of the salary spectrum will get it in the neck, whils the fat cat, ineffectual public service managers, will somehow get away with less damage.

Thedogsgone

The IMF will insits on cuts public service wages/numbers.

The IMF will insist on cuts in welfare rates

The IMF will insist that a certain number of hospitals will close (historically this has been in rural areas where the numbers being treated are lower)

The IMF will insist on large numbers of schools close

The IMF/EU will insist on an increase in Corporation Tax leading to an exodus of foreign multinationals from the country.

The IMF will insist on significant tax increases including Income tax but ,perhaps most significantly given our proximity to the north, they will also insist on a large increase in VAT.



This will not end well for anyone...........

Nody

sunshinediver wrote: »

You do realise that cuts will affect you too? IF there was a sole IMF intervention funding for all state agencies would be slashed by up to 30%. Yes public service wages will be reduced and probably a lot of redundancies which i'm sure will delight you, However you will also see...

A direct reduction in the quality of education your kids receive due to over crowded classrooms and no funding to hire more teachers.

A direct reduction in the quality of healthcare you recieve as hospitals become even more overcrowded.

Your car will be destroyed from driving over streets full of potholes as the councils don't have money for repair.

Less money for public transport,

Less money for community projects/local sports clubs.

the list goes on,

Yes the CPA would be done away with but thats not all, You shouldn't cut off your nose to spite your face.

Most of this list would be greatly reduced further because of the deal since the cuts would still have to be as high BUT they could not come in terms of salaries or headcount reductions! So the number of potholes, money for community projects etc. will actually be HIGHER because the inflated salaries and headcount can be cut to free up money instead of cutting it from non headcount part of the budgets.

dan_d

Jaysus. Jumping on a bandwagon here folks.

Where does it say the CPD will be axed? Where does it say that thousands of PS workers will lose their jobs?

That article is completely contradictory...can you actually stop and read it for a second???

Firstly the IMF and the EU are here - they are conveniently omitting the EU from their opening paragraph.

Secondly this:
At the same time, the International Monetary Fund will sanction emergency cash for the banks in a massive effort to restore confidence in the sector.
We have absolutely no confirmation of this at all. We don't know what deal will be struck. There will be a deal, but we don't know who it will be with or whether the IMF will be involved at all.

Then there's this

A draconian €6bn Budget is already on the cards, with tax hikes and savage spending and welfare cuts.
But these will not be enough to meet the harsh measures demanded by the IMF and ECB.



Followed by this


Earlier yesterday Central Bank governor Patrick Honohan spelt out the details in a frank interview when he said an IMF loan worth tens of billions was inevitable. But he said he believed influential IMF/EU experts would not demand any radical alteration of the Government's savings plans after they inspected Exchequer and bank books.



I'm sorry - those 2 paragraphs are completely contradictory.


Yesterday the media was full of the story that it took the GOVERNOR OF THE CENTRAL BANK (the more hysterically you say this, the more impressive it sounds, btw) to tell us, the Irish people, the real truth about what was going on. Now today, they're saying that was okay for yesterday's news, but today, it sounds better if we know that the IMF are imposing cuts, and on the PS too, rather than acknowledging that the cuts that are intended making will probably be enough for the EU - in other words, FF may have done/be doing one little thing right.



Sells way more papers that way.


And the rest of the article is completely disjointed from the headline or the first few paragraphs - and is just a rehash of older stuff.


Actually, on re reading, it's a very badly written article, and as for the content...:eek:


Let me add - because I'll inevitably be attacked by the screaming mob brigade - that I do believe something has to be done with the PS, and particularly it's unions, and I do believe that the CPD is a complete waste of the paper it's written on, and I do think there will be a bailout/loan of sorts. But I prefer to reserve my judgement until I actually see a solid outcome. And I also prefer to read every word of an article, and form my own opinion as opposed to swallowing everything that's blared from all sides.


We have no idea what will happen other than the the fact that it is likely that we will receive aid from the EU/IMF. And, in the words of Porky Pig.....th-th-th-that's all Folks!!!:D

Welease

sunshinediver wrote: »

You do realise that cuts will affect you too? IF there was a sole IMF intervention funding for all state agencies would be slashed by up to 30%. Yes public service wages will be reduced and probably a lot of redundancies which i'm sure will delight you, However you will also see...

A direct reduction in the quality of education your kids receive due to over crowded classrooms and no funding to hire more teachers.

A direct reduction in the quality of healthcare you recieve as hospitals become even more overcrowded.

Your car will be destroyed from driving over streets full of potholes as the councils don't have money for repair.

Less money for public transport,

Less money for community projects/local sports clubs.

the list goes on,

Yes the CPA would be done away wwith but thats not all, You shouldn't cut off your nose to spite your face.

If we continue to run our public services in the current manner then true.. But one would hope with the efficiencies we were supposed to gain from the CPA, AND a realisation that we need to deliver value for money in public services, the effect of direct cuts in spending could be minimised..

BeeDI

ntlbell wrote: »

Pat carey was asked this morning was a producitvity plan in place for croke park

he answered, yes.

when asked for examples e.g. a teacher, what should we expect to see.

"you'll see it in 4 years"

WTF???

Yeah, but after the pummeling he got on Primetime, last night from Pat Rabbitte, he couldn't have been thinking straight.
Have to say, it was one hell of a cringe moment watching him being viscerated on live TV. :cool:

HellFireClub

Welease wrote: »

If we continue to run our public services in the current manner then true.. But one would hope with the efficiencies we were supposed to gain from the CPA, AND a realisation that we need to deliver value for money in public services, the effect of direct cuts in spending could be minimised..

I think in order to expect any hope of reform, people have to agree on what the phase, "efficiencies" actually means, and the people who we need to take ownership of reform in our public sector, do not even know the meaning of the word at the present time, at least not as I understand the meaning of the word in the context of private sector employment.

Also, reform and change requires strong local/workplace leadership as well as national leadership, when you are dealing with a culture where everything has to be run past a union and every change has to be weighed up to see if it can be used as an instrument to lever out some improvement in terms & conditions, then you are ultimately going nowhere.

Avgas

ixoy wrote: »

So aren't you saying here that we can actually get a more effecient PS for a lot better value?

Yes Ixoy, I would be in the 'reform the hell out of the PS camp'. And I'm Public sector.

But I would not be in the camp says: just fire 30,000-50,000 of them like that and cut a further 20% off their basic salaries and pensions. The McCarthy report is a reasonable basis for making savings and bringing an end to loads of absurd inefficiencies in the PS....some of it maybe is a bit wrong headed/extreme. Much of it makes sense more or less.

We allowed our overall PS to grow too big in terms of size...this means we need ongoing recruitment freezes and especially a de facto end to most promotion 'games' for the next 3-5 years (at a minimum). It also means creative and large-scale redeployment and retraining: you might have joined the PS in the Army, but you should expect to be offered a choice of either redundancy or you can be redeployed to the Gardai....or even switch to being a teacher....

That sort of stuff.

Slash and burn 'reform' probably sounds great to friends I know who are private sector and now unemployed. But its not a sensible approach for either the short or long term.

ei.sdraob

Avgas wrote: »

Yes Ixoy, I would be in the 'reform the hell out of the PS camp'. And I'm Public sector.

But I would not be in the camp says: just fire 30,000-50,000 of them like that and cut a further 20% off their basic salaries and pensions. The McCarthy report is a reasonable basis for making savings and bringing an end to loads of absurd inefficiencies in the PS....some of it maybe is a bit wrong headed/extreme. Much of it makes sense more or less.

We allowed our overall PS to grow too big in terms of size...this means we need ongoing recruitment freezes and especially a de facto end to most promotion 'games' for the next 3-5 years (at a minimum). It also means creative and large-scale redeployment and retraining: you might have joined the PS in the Army, but you should expect to be offered a choice of either redundancy or you can be redeployed to the Gardai....or even switch to being a teacher....

That sort of stuff.

Slash and burn 'reform' probably sounds great to friends I know who are private sector and now unemployed. But its not a sensible approach for either the short or long term.

You wouldn't have to fire anyone if the average wage comes down same level as private sector, if anything you be able to hire more new people, plenty of nurses and teachers out there not able get a job and be happy to work for something

sensibleken

Ah yes. Its the Unions fault.

Why are so many Irish people incapable of concentrating on who actually caused this unprecedented ****storm?

Welease

HellFireClub wrote: »

I think in order to expect any hope of reform, people have to agree on what the phase, "efficiencies" actually means, and the people who we need to take ownership of reform in our public sector, do not even know the meaning of the word at the present time, at least not as I understand the meaning of the word in the context of private sector employment.

Also, reform and change requires strong local/workplace leadership as well as national leadership, when you are dealing with a culture where everything has to be run past a union and every change has to be weighed up to see if it can be used as an instrument to lever out some improvement in terms & conditions, then you are ultimately going nowhere.

Exactly.. Change is required..

Our public services are NOT drastically underfunded.. We just have high levels of waste..

We are not cutting our noses off to spite our faces as a previous poster suggested, we are asking for more accountability and value for money.

If budgets cuts hit service levels at maximum levels then the PS has failed the people of Ireland not the other way round...

ei.sdraob

sensibleken wrote: »

Ah yes. Its the Unions fault.

Why are so many Irish people incapable of concentrating on who actually caused this unprecedented ****storm?

Yes it partly was

David Begg was on the board of directors of the central bank earning another tidy salary while the banks were going about committing fraud and not being supervised by the CB/Regulator

And then there was benchmarking :rolleyes:

amacachi

sensibleken wrote: »

Ah yes. Its the Unions fault.

Why are so many Irish people incapable of concentrating on who actually caused this unprecedented ****storm?

Wanting to be paid as others' average wages went up and then not accepting cuts when others' average wages went down I think did contribute to the huge blackhole we're facing.

fatboypee

Pat Carey on Newstalk this morning was asked specifically if the government would (or should), (given the new financial developments) revisit the Crok Park agreement.

The Rhetoric about it being an agreement entered into.. blah.. blah.. blah was, to my mind the biggest pointer yet that we're wholly screwed.

THE COUNTRY HAS GONE TO HELL IN A HANDBASKET and the government are actually considering taking money off welfare and pensioners yet WILL NOT tackle the Vise-Grip of Public Sector Unions citing "this was an agreement entered into..." WTF ?

On another note, my brother was onto me yesterday (he lives in London), telling me everyone over that side is laughing incredulously at the muppetry going on here. They simply cannot believe the government. His words: "the arrogance is simply incredible".

Says it all really.

RobbieTheRobber

ei.sdraob wrote: »

Yes it partly was

David Begg was on the board of directors of the central bank earning another tidy salary while the banks were going about committing fraud and not being supervised by the CB/Regulator

And then there was benchmarking :rolleyes:

David Begg is not The union he is a part of it, anything he does or does not do as an individual should not be reflected upon memeber of unions. :rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

David Begg is not The union he is a part of it, anything he does or does not do as an individual should not be reflected upon memeber of unions. :rolleyes:

Wait what? thats like saying O'Leary doesnt represent Ryanair.


The unions had their heads in the trough too, don't forget that.

sealgaire

Everyone is entitled to their point of view!

Just because you don't agree with it and obviously have a vested interested in the Croke Park agreement

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Original Post:
[post]69100320[/post]

I hope ye all get your pay SLASHED!

All the best,
boards.ie