Will the IMF take the chainsaw to the Croke Park Agreement???

HellFireClub

It seems that the game is up for this other pathethic instance of people pleasing and pandering that we are so fond of doing in Ireland, namely the Croke Park Agreement.

I reckon we will now start seeing widespread mobilisation of unions and their members members out into public protests, now of course that their members interests are going to have to be diminished in the national interest...

And they were like mice for the last two years, in the full knowledge that a floor had been placed under their "contribution"...

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

dvpower

HellFireClub wrote: »

I reckon we will now start seeing widespread mobilisation of unions and their members members out into public protests, now of course that their members interests are going to have to be diminished in the national interest...

Sawing off the branch they're sitting on.

RichardAnd

The IMF haven't got the power to tamper with state agreements so no, they will not be taking a chain saw to the Croke Park Deal nor anything else. However, as to whether or not the CPD will be re considered by the state in light of what it seems will happen in the coming months, well in my opinion the answer is yes.

You see, I believe the CPD was nothing but filling a crack in the wall with pulped newspaper; it bought some time but it was never going to last. Look at it in detail, it promised no wage cuts, no redundancies and (most absurd of all) it promises that staff on wages below a certain level will actually get money from any savings made as "reimbursements".

No one could expect something like that to last when the state is broke. The CPD was made to shut the unions up and give PS workers something to distract them for a few months. It won't make it past the budget without being revised in some way. Expect strikes in the new year.

HellFireClub

RichardAnd wrote: »

The IMF haven't got the power to tamper with state agreements so no, they will not be taking a chain saw to the Croke Park Deal nor anything else. However, as to whether or not the CPD will be re considered by the state in light of what it seems will happen in the coming months, well in my opinion the answer is yes.

You see, I believe the CPD was nothing but filling a crack in the wall with pulped newspaper; it bought some time but it was never going to last. Look at it in detail, it promised no wage cuts, no redundancies and (most absurd of all) it promises that staff on wages below a certain level will actually get money from any savings made as "reimbursements".

No one could expect something like that to last when the state is broke. The CPD was made to shut the unions up and give PS workers something to distract them for a few months. It won't make it past the budget without being revised in some way. Expect strikes in the new year.

The IMF seem to operate on the basis of releasing agreed funds in traches, and waiting for reform in very particular areas, before transfering a particular trache of money to the country in question. So while they cannot specifically do away with the CPD, then can target it as something that is flagged for reform and wait for that reform to take place before they hand over funds.

Personally I think we should be throwing palm branches out in front of these guys as they walk around the city, they might just be able to save us from ourselves I think...

spyderski

Hope so....

ardmacha

I am sure some sociologist will be able to analyse this schadenfreude, which hopes that the government representing them will break an agreement made only a few months ago. Public expenditure and taxation returns etc are proceeding pretty much exactly as predicted at the time of the agreement. The main change is in relation to banks liabilities, and the likelihood is that FF knew full well about these when making the agreement. Yet when their lies are exposed and the democratic government is beholden to foreigners there is not condemnation of the government crooks or empathy for those deceived by them but rather glee that others will now suffer as a consequence. Is it any wonder than people have given up on this State.

spyderski

I'm afraid a lot of people in the private sector have given up on seeing the public sector face up to reality.

Before you blow up, I accept that this is a generalisation, and there are some public sector workers who should be getting a raise, however Croke Park is a blanket agreement, which is unsustainable & unreasonable in the present economic climate.

Dempo1

Hopefully and i will gladly supply the petrol, while they are at it, no harm to cut a floor or two of Liberty Hall.

oppenheimer1

Dempo1 wrote: »

Hopefully and i will gladly supply the petrol, while they are at it, no harm to cut a floor or two of Liberty Hall.

While it might be nice to see the unions get their comeuppance there would be a real human tragedy if pay and numbers were slashed. Not to mention lots and lots of mortgage defaults. PS workers are more vulnerable as when they took out loans it would have ben seen as highly unlikely they would ever suffer a loss in income let alone job losses.

jimmycrackcorm

Isn't it ironic that the government feel they can play high stakes poker with the EU/IMF but they cannot stomach standing up to our unions?

markesmith

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Isn't it ironic that the government feel they can play high stakes poker with the EU/IMF but they cannot stomach standing up to our unions?

Not ironic - just really, really Irish.

WalterMitty

Garrett Fitzgerald summed it up on newstalk yesterday by saying he couldnt understand ICTU , maximising unemployment in order to keep our public servants so overpaid by EU standards.

DeVore

The unions control people who vote here. The IMF don't.

DeV.

Poly

The end is nigh for PS clip board carrying busy bodies. 30 mins off to cash a non-existent cheque FFS!

I would imagine the CPD is first thing the IMF will look at . If they are lending us money they want to see spent productively.
Union bosses can bluster all they want, this is their Waterloo.

TheUsual

IMF ?!?!?!? :rolleyes:

Why are so many idiots bringing up the IMF ???

First the European Union (this is the simple version for slow people) has stated it will step in before the IMF are necessary in Ireland. And Europe will never let the IMF take over the financial controls of a European country.

Second we do not even need the EU to step in. And even though our banks are bust, and our idiot greedy citizens with 300,000 euro mortgages are crying for buying something they can't afford, we as still viable as a country.

mistermouse

Hope they do and hope they have the power to do so. I am sure the government hoped this would get them off the case

Everyone in the country respect frontline staff such as Nurses etc. Most in the country know the PS unions are using these staff as pawns and are acting beyond selfish and unpatriotic.

If the public sector dont reform and reform their unions too then they are all culpable and then deserve to eat their crumbs rather than cake.

The Croke Park Agreement and those who negotiated it on both sides hold no credibility

Poly

TheUsual wrote: »

Why are so many idiots bringing up the IMF ???

Because they are sitting in Merrion st. sharpening their axes. What do you think they're for?

Count Dooku

No details yet

Public servants face pay and job cuts as the IMF moves in

TheUsual

Poly wrote: »

Because they are sitting in Merrion st. sharpening their axes. What do you think they're for?

If you knew anything about politics you would know the EU will step in before the IMF and the EU have not been called in. Neither will will called in ... ever. End of class children.
I am getting tired explaining the real world to kids.

Poly

TheUsual wrote: »

If you knew anything about politics you would know the EU will step in before the IMF and the EU have not been called in. Neither will will called in ... ever. End of class children.
I am getting tired explaining the real world to kids.

I see what you’re doing, you’re using cowen speak, just to point out, right now the IMF are having their breakfast in the Merrion hotel.

Poly

TheUsual wrote: »

If you knew anything about politics you would know the EU will step in before the IMF and the EU have not been called in. Neither will will called in ... ever. End of class children.
I am getting tired explaining the real world to kids.

still in denial?

"BRIAN LENIHAN last night admitted Ireland would need an EU-IMF bailout after the Government spent the best part of a week firmly downplaying the possibility."

http://www.irishexaminer.com/home/proclamation-of-dependence-136950.html

Mister men

Croke park is finished. It's only a matter of how much the PS lose in jobs and pay now. They should have made proper cuts whilst they had the chance.

P. Breathnach

DeVore wrote: »

The unions control people who vote here....

It's the other way round: the unions are democratically organised, and are controlled by their members.

CiaranC

TheUsual wrote: »

If you knew anything about politics you would know the EU will step in before the IMF and the EU have not been called in. Neither will will called in ... ever. End of class children.
I am getting tired explaining the real world to kids.

lol

STILL in denial

Nody

TheUsual wrote: »

If you knew anything about politics you would know the EU will step in before the IMF and the EU have not been called in. Neither will will called in ... ever. End of class children.
I am getting tired explaining the real world to kids.

You are aware that the EU bailout for Greece involved IMF as well right? Any new bailout will involve IMF but not as a 100% bailout; why? Because that gives a nice scapegoat for EU (and the local government) to point to for all the hard cuts that needs to be done (with or with out IMF). Oh we don't want to but the big bad IMF makes us do it so please vote for us again!

wellboytoo

Yes it will mean the end of the CPA thank God and hopefully we will get some decisions made on good solid economic grounds , rather than the pressure group driven decisions this country has been run by since Christ was a young fella. I for one welcome the EU/IMF in the hope we will see some logical decision making albeit painful and get rid of the enormous waste in this country.

sunshinediver

Poly wrote: »

Because they are sitting in Merrion st. sharpening their axes. What do you think they're for?

The Bailout if we get one will be from a JOINT EU/IMF fund whereby the majority of funds will come from the EU

As previously stated the EU have asked the IMF to be involved in discussions as they have no experience in dealing with matters like this before.

A quick read of todays papers will show that a large EU/IMF team are in Dublin, it's not solely IMF.

Some people should really do some more background reading before posting on here.

sunshinediver

Mister men wrote: »

Croke park is finished. It's only a matter of how much the PS lose in jobs and pay now. They should have made proper cuts whilst they had the chance.

You do realise that cuts will affect you too? IF there was a sole IMF intervention funding for all state agencies would be slashed by up to 30%. Yes public service wages will be reduced and probably a lot of redundancies which i'm sure will delight you, However you will also see...

A direct reduction in the quality of education your kids receive due to over crowded classrooms and no funding to hire more teachers.

A direct reduction in the quality of healthcare you recieve as hospitals become even more overcrowded.

Your car will be destroyed from driving over streets full of potholes as the councils don't have money for repair.

Less money for public transport,

Less money for community projects/local sports clubs.

the list goes on,

Yes the CPA would be done away with but thats not all, You shouldn't cut off your nose to spite your face.

Avgas

Is Croke Park Toast?

Yes would be my guess BUT remember public sector salaries will be cut anyhow by higher income and other taxes. And unlike people in the private sector, the scope for most state workers to dodge/fiddle tax through endemic private sector creative accounting is rather more limited (unless your senior management level and then you are in the Rolls Royce/untouchable class anyhow)

Rather than looking for more cuts in basic PS pay and salaries, perhaps to make a long term dent in public finances what the IMF will want to see are a mix of compulsory/voluntary redundancies-as the UK are rolling out. That is were the game has moved on to.

Finally, if Irish people want to scapegoat the public sector and fire thousands of teachers, nurses, guards, etc., then that is really fine by me. It will add thousands to the dole, and it will likely increase the number of mortgage defaults.....but sure so what?

If the ship is going down, lets see those Public Servants drown first, eh?

If Irish people don't want to pay for public services (which I admit are often poorly delivered, represent bad value, and need a massive dose of restructuring)...then really that is fine.

You can pay for massively expensive American style private health care-think what your paying for VHI (et al.) doubled or tripled (if you can afford it)
You can pay for private security firms (or thugs) to police your gated estates
You can pay tens of thousands of Euros (or Puntnuas or Gold coins) to American style private universities which is what they would charge you for a basic undergraduate degree.
You can pay hundreds if not thousands of euros just to send your kids to private primary and secondary schools.

It is all fine really. :rolleyes:

ei.sdraob

Avgas wrote: »

Is Croke Park Toast?

Yes would be my guess BUT remember public sector salaries will be cut anyhow by higher income and other taxes. And unlike people in the private sector, the scope for most state workers to dodge/fiddle tax through endemic private sector creative accounting is rather more limited (unless your senior management level and then you are in the Rolls Royce/untouchable class anyhow)

Rather than looking for more cuts in basic PS pay and salaries, perhaps to make a long term dent in public finances what the IMF will want to see are a mix of compulsory/voluntary redundancies-as the UK are rolling out. That is were the game has moved on to.

Finally, if Irish people want to scapegoat the public sector and fire thousands of teachers, nurses, guards, etc., then that is really fine by me. It will add thousands to the dole, and it will likely increase the number of mortgage defaults.....but sure so what?

If the ship is going down, lets see those Public Servants drown first, eh?

If Irish people don't want to pay for public services (which I admit are often poorly delivered, represent bad value, and need a massive dose of restructuring)...then really that is fine.

You can pay for massively expensive American style private health care-think what your paying for VHI (et al.) doubled or tripled (if you can afford it)
You can pay for private security firms (or thugs) to police your gated estates
You can pay tens of thousands of Euros (or Puntnuas or Gold coins) to American style private universities which is what they would charge you for a basic undergraduate degree.
You can pay hundreds if not thousands of euros just to send your kids to private primary and secondary schools.

It is all fine really. :rolleyes:

Fancy having the Public average earnings come down from the current average of 904 to 650 average of the private sector? :rolleyes:

yee lot still have a long way to go

go on da IMF :P