What does "losing our sovereignty" actually mean?

wylo

Hi, I keep hearing this been thrown about as if we are giving up our constitution in the case of a bailout which is certainly not the case. So when people refer to losing our sovereignty what do they actually mean? Just that we will have no control over our own finances any more? Its just annoying hearing that phrase, as if the Germans are coming along and banning us from speaking irish,etc

If this thread is going to be locked will you PLEEEASE link me to another thread that discusses this topic directly? Its just my last one was locked on the grounds that it is being discussed in all other threads (fair enough), but its very difficult to go through loads of threads to find a direct answer to the question when most people discussing it are gone well passed that topic itself if you get me.

CCCP

Losing our soveriegnity means the Irish government transferring any policy making power to a foreign leadership.

Xiney

CCCP wrote: »

Losing our soveriegnity means losing any decision making power

we don't really have that now though do we?

thirtythirty

"Losing our sovereignty" is a buzz phrase that is being thrown around by people who enjoy trying to look like they know a lot about the topic, and are trying to come across as philosophical about the matter.

later12

Losing our sovereignty has two aspects to it.

First, there is the most serious aspect in many peoples eyes - the immediate repercussions. This means that outsiders (subject to negotiations) influence our domestic agenda - welfare spending, taxes and other matters relating to public finances. These outsiders may be less sympathetic to the citizens than elected representatives, so draw from that what you will.

Secondly, and very seriously, there is the issue of principle.

This country endured an uprising, a war of independence and a civil war based on the principle that it was in our best interests that we govern ourselves. Irish men and women died for the cause of autonomy. They believed that we had the capability and the intelligence to manage our own affairs, and they paid dearly, many with their lives, for that belief.

This has now been severely jeaprodised. The Irish Times Editorial says it much better than I can say it. The link is below.

Was it for this?

Scofflaw

As CCCP said, it means the government transferring any policy making power to an external power. Obviously, there are lots of degrees of that - the question, in terms of usage, is whether one means "any" in the sense of "any part of policy making power" or in the sense of handing it all over.

To say that we are "losing our sovereignty" should mean that the government literally has no power to make policy any more. That's not the case here - what there will be instead are conditions, which means that the government doesn't have complete freedom to set policy. That's only "losing our sovereignty" if you think that losing any part of our freedom of action is the same as losing it all - that sovereignty is somehow sacred and indivisible. It isn't, though - it's something we've been trading for years against things like access to the common market, joint tax arrangements, neutrality (the Triple Lock means the government isn't free to send troops abroad without the consent of the UN), etc - which is fair enough, because 'complete freedom of action' is pretty meaningless to a small open economy anyway. We've always been at the mercy of outside forces.

So the answer is largely that it's a phrase that sounds more dramatic than saying "we don't want to lose some of our freedom of action". The government is using it to drum up support for their current stance, other people are using it as a stick to beat the government with. None of them are making meaningful use of it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

28064212

If, in the morning, our great and glorious elected representatives decide "f*ck it, lets see what happens if we lower the corporation tax to zero", the EU/IMF/ can't stop them. They can kick Ireland out of their clubs and refuse to loan any money, but they can't stop them. Sure, we'll end up in an economic situation worse then Zimbabwe's, but what the hell.

We have not lost any sovereignty.

Liam Byrne

Scofflaw wrote: »

To say that we are "losing our sovereignty" should mean that the government literally has no power to make policy any more. That's not the case here - what there will be instead are conditions, which means that the government doesn't have complete freedom to set policy.

If it means that this government can't foist any more corrupt ****e on us, as well as ensuring that the public service and government pay & expenses get reformed, then I welcome it.

It might be nice to have someone on the purse-strings who isn't beholden to the local parish pump vote and/or former Galway tent cronies.

Chuchoter

Maybe this will sound awful, but maybe it would be better if somebody else took over. We obviously can't do this.

KERSPLAT!

If they do come it'll be tough on everyone, serious cuts in all sectors. We are going to have a dark few years ahead either way

Mac daddy

I'm more than likely going to get shot for saying this.

Honestly do any of you believe this government or opposition are really fit to sort out this country?

I firmly don't believe we are, ireland has behaving like a bunch of spoilt brats for the past couple of years, we have been lying to ourselves and to others for years.

We had a chance to play with the big boys and we couldn't control ourselves, everyone got greedy and started to snap up mortages, 100% mortgages goverment went on a self spending spree, public services pay went up and up and up, the cost of living went up and up.

And now we are awake from this big party called the celtic tiger and we have a serious hangover from the money that we spent in las vegas.

We need rid of this government and we need a government put in by the germans and the IMF and we should not be in control of our money as cleary we can't help spend that money.

What I'm wondering now is, if we accept the bailout or whatever you call say a couple of months down the line BOI or AIB go tits up what then do we have to go back and say " Can we have some more money please??"

Ireland had its chance and blew it instead of actually doing something with the money we made several years ago putting it into proper broadband and schools, and roads ect we spent it on crap and more housing estates without schools or decent facilities.

People are now stuck because of there own greed in a crumy town that they didn't really want to move to in the first place, why because they thought they would make a killing from selling it in a year or two because everyone else was doing the exact same.

I for one welcome the Germans and the IMF I hope they can sort out the mess this country is in, as we ourselves clearly can't.

sorry for the typo's, english is not my native language.

cml387

Scofflaw wrote: »

As CCCP said, it means the government transferring any policy making power to an external power. Obviously, there are lots of degrees of that - the question, in terms of usage, is whether one means "any" in the sense of "any part of policy making power" or in the sense of handing it all over.

To say that we are "losing our sovereignty" should mean that the government literally has no power to make policy any more. That's not the case here - what there will be instead are conditions, which means that the government doesn't have complete freedom to set policy. That's only "losing our sovereignty" if you think that losing any part of our freedom of action is the same as losing it all - that sovereignty is somehow sacred and indivisible. It isn't, though - it's something we've been trading for years against things like access to the common market, joint tax arrangements, neutrality (the Triple Lock means the government isn't free to send troops abroad without the consent of the UN), etc - which is fair enough, because 'complete freedom of action' is pretty meaningless to a small open economy anyway. We've always been at the mercy of outside forces.

So the answer is largely that it's a phrase that sounds more dramatic than saying "we don't want to lose some of our freedom of action". The government is using it to drum up support for their current stance, other people are using it as a stick to beat the government with. None of them are making meaningful use of it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

To an extent I agree.
However,where our sovereignty was seen to be reduced (e.g. various European treaties) we have had an opportunity to accept or reject the possibilty.

The problem is that the perception will be that the four year plan and December budget will have adjudicated on and approved first by the IMF.
And it constrains any other future government from following a different policy.
So whatever the electorate do, the outcome will be the same.

If sovereignty means anything,it implies self determination,and that 's been removed by todays events.

RichardAnd

Mac daddy wrote: »

I'm more than likely going to get shot for saying this.

Honestly do any of you believe this government or opposition are really fit to sort out this country?

I firmly don't believe we are, ireland has behaving like a bunch of spoilt brats for the past couple of years, we have been lying to ourselves and to others for years.

We had a chance to play with the big boys and we couldn't control ourselves, everyone got greedy and started to snap up mortages, 100% mortgages goverment went on a self spending spree, public services pay went up and up and up, the cost of living went up and up.

And now we are awake from this big party called the celtic tiger and we have a serious hangover from the money that we spent in las vegas.

We need rid of this government and we need a government put in by the germans and the IMF and we should not be in control of our money as cleary we can't help spend that money.

What I'm wondering now is, if we accept the bailout or whatever you call say a couple of months down the line BOI or AIB go tits up what then do we have to go back and say " Can we have some more money please??"

Ireland had its chance and blew it instead of actually doing something with the money we made several years ago putting it into proper broadband and schools, and roads ect we spent it on crap and more housing estates without schools or decent facilities.

People are now stuck because of there own greed in a crumy town that they didn't really want to move to in the first place, why because they thought they would make a killing from selling it in a year or two because everyone else was doing the exact same.

I for one welcome the Germans and the IMF I hope they can sort out the mess this country is in, as we ourselves clearly can't.

sorry for the typo's, english is not my native language.

I agree that neither FF nor the opposition are really suited to fixing this mess and perhaps it's best that someone does take charge of things. However, I firmly believe that all we will ever get in Ireland is a half arsed government because we are only capable of electing a representation of ourselves. We have the government we deserve.

Your comment about this recession being a hangover is an interesting one and one I agree with. The boom saw Ireland go out on the town to get absolutely wasted. It's now monday morning and we've just woken up with a mother of hangovers. However, like many people who are taken to this pass time, it's likely that the words "never again" will pass our lips...

Give it 20 years and we'll be right back in bust land once again.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

eeloe

I've been following this forum for a number of weeks as I enjoy reading it, this will be my first post here:

When people say 'dark years ahead' what have the past two years been? Sunshine and lollipops?

If the IMF step in, what's going to happen? Are we all gonna go to live in mud huts, with no electricity? Doubt it!

RichardAnd

eeloe wrote: »

I've been following this forum for a number of weeks as I enjoy reading it, this will be my first post here:

When people say 'dark years ahead' what have the past two years been? Sunshine and lollipops?

If the IMF step in, what's going to happen? Are we all gonna go to live in mud huts, with no electricity? Doubt it!

A good point and you're quite right, the IMF aren't going to trash ireland and put us back in the 1920s just for kicks. What will happen is probably no different than what would have happened anyway under the governments four year plan.

later12

RichardAnd wrote: »

A good point and you're quite right, the IMF aren't going to trash ireland and put us back in the 1920s just for kicks. What will happen is probably no different than what would have happened anyway under the governments four year plan.

That strategy assumes that the four year plan, including its projections on economic growth and unemployment is realistic and achievable.

It might be, but would you bet on it?

In reality, that plan is probably quite complex and may have some 'best case scenario' clauses in there. What is certain is that the budgetary plan will be designed to spread pain and cause as little social upset (protecting pensions and tax rates for example) as possible, possibly allthewhile being cumbersome and possibly inefficient.

Now if you were the IMF, why would you care about such procedure. Just come in and cut spending. Forget about niceties and cumbersome social equities. Slash welfare! Raise corporation tax! Raise income tax! It's probably much more efficient than what the government have designed anyway.

noxqs

These outsiders may be less sympathetic to the citizens than elected representatives

Haha.

wylo

Tbh, from hearing responses it is a little worrying or upsetting. I know theres the argument that we gave up our economic sovereignty once we joined the euro but i dunno if I buy that one, did we really to this extent? Obviously not if we were allowed to get carried away with our PS spending. Do we now have someone looking over our shoulder every during budget "advising" us.
I HATE bringing it up , because its been done to death, but there is an element of it being a slap in the face to the 1916 volunteers etc. It feels cringy writing it but there is an element of truth in it.

28064212

wylo wrote: »

Tbh, from hearing responses it is a little worrying or upsetting. I know theres the argument that we gave up our economic sovereignty once we joined the euro but i dunno if I buy that one, did we really to this extent? Obviously not if we were allowed to get carried away with our PS spending. Do we now have someone looking over our shoulder every during budget "advising" us.

What do you want so? The ECB/IMF to just hand us a massive wad of cash, tell us we can spend it whatever way we like? Or they give us nothing, and the country goes completely bankrupt?

wylo wrote: »

I HATE bringing it up , because its been done to death, but there is an element of it being a slap in the face to the 1916 volunteers etc. It feels cringy writing it but there is an element of truth in it.

That's ****ing ridiculous. If accepting outside help and owning up to our responsibilities in an international market is a slap in the face, then joining the EU in the first place is a bigger one, as is being a UN member, and being a signatory to a hundred and one other international treaties

dan_d

I suupose the best we can hope for is the IMF/EU will put in place systems and standards for money spending and governance, and after time (and a number of successive governments), these will be accepted as the norm.....hopefully putting us in a position where we can say 'well look what happened last time' if a politician looks like stepping outside of them.We have no standards for our politicians behaviour - it's about time somebody set a few.
We can learn from this, even if it means someone else holds the purse strings for a few years.With any luck we can come out of this a better country.....

monkfish

Got this email from a colleague in Athens today. They've had the IMF for a while. Their case is different, but...

Have been following the rotten news. How are you faring in all this? Any problems for the university and lecturers? Here it's getting worse---one in 10 now on breadline daily and the Medecins Sans Frontiere have opened up permanent offices in Athens to deal with what in their words is a humanitarian crisis...

Taxes, VAT on food, and public utility bills keep on going up and up, and heating bills doubled. We are hanging on, and are lucky to still have jobs (although I am owed several months again)...but who knows what will happen to any of us, especially if they move us to a "soft" euro or the drachma!

wylo

28064212 wrote: »

What do you want so? The ECB/IMF to just hand us a massive wad of cash, tell us we can spend it whatever way we like? Or they give us nothing, and the country goes completely bankrupt?

Ive already resigned to our faith, i dont 'want' anything else. I was just simply stating its upsetting.

28064212 wrote: »

That's ****ing ridiculous. If accepting outside help and owning up to our responsibilities in an international market is a slap in the face, then joining the EU in the first place is a bigger one, as is being a UN member, and being a signatory to a hundred and one other international treaties

I dont like those comparisons, there is massive difference between us having outsiders having control (lets call a spade a spade) over our annual budget to the things you have mentioned there.

wylo

monkfish wrote: »

Got this email from a colleague in Athens today. They've had the IMF for a while. Their case is different, but...

Have been following the rotten news. How are you faring in all this? Any problems for the university and lecturers? Here it's getting worse---one in 10 now on breadline daily and the Medecins Sans Frontiere have opened up permanent offices in Athens to deal with what in their words is a humanitarian crisis...

Taxes, VAT on food, and public utility bills keep on going up and up, and heating bills doubled. We are hanging on, and are lucky to still have jobs (although I am owed several months again)...but who knows what will happen to any of us, especially if they move us to a "soft" euro or the drachma!

Just wondering is there any articles floating about here about how Greece is fairing out in general.

PeterIanStaker

They did so, let us recall, from a period when Irish sovereignty had never been stronger. Our national debt was negligible. The mass emigration that had mocked our claims to be a people in control of our own destiny was reversed. A genuine act of national self-determination had occurred in 1998 when both parts of the island voted to accept the Belfast Agreement. The sense of failure and inferiority had been banished, we thought, for good.To drag this State down from those heights and make it again subject to the decisions of others is an achievement that will not soon be forgiven. It must mark, surely, the ignominious end of a failed administration.

- from the IT article. Makes some good points.

rumour

later10 wrote: »

Now if you were the IMF, why would you care about such procedure. Just come in and cut spending. Forget about niceties and cumbersome social equities. Slash welfare! Raise corporation tax! Raise income tax! It's probably much more efficient than what the government have designed anyway.

The IMF are not going to jeopardise having their loans repaid. They'll figure this one out. But don't be surprised in a few years when you hear Labour and Sinn Fein calling for it to be raised appealing to their voting base which will expand as the money dries up.

The Unions will be hard on the heals of this one.

28064212

wylo wrote: »

I dont like those comparisons, there is massive difference between us having outsiders having control (lets call a spade a spade) over our annual budget to the things you have mentioned there.

How is it different? Ireland has zero control over its immigration policy when it comes to EU immigrants (which I'm all for btw). How much of our fishing rights have we given up? There are massive areas of policy that we have "given up control" of because of international treaties. In return, we get many, many benefits. How is this any different?

johnnyjb

Mac daddy wrote: »

I'm more than likely going to get shot for saying this.

Honestly do any of you believe this government or opposition are really fit to sort out this country?

I firmly don't believe we are, ireland has behaving like a bunch of spoilt brats for the past couple of years, we have been lying to ourselves and to others for years.

We had a chance to play with the big boys and we couldn't control ourselves, everyone got greedy and started to snap up mortages, 100% mortgages goverment went on a self spending spree, public services pay went up and up and up, the cost of living went up and up.

And now we are awake from this big party called the celtic tiger and we have a serious hangover from the money that we spent in las vegas.

We need rid of this government and we need a government put in by the germans and the IMF and we should not be in control of our money as cleary we can't help spend that money.

What I'm wondering now is, if we accept the bailout or whatever you call say a couple of months down the line BOI or AIB go tits up what then do we have to go back and say " Can we have some more money please??"

Ireland had its chance and blew it instead of actually doing something with the money we made several years ago putting it into proper broadband and schools, and roads ect we spent it on crap and more housing estates without schools or decent facilities.

People are now stuck because of there own greed in a crumy town that they didn't really want to move to in the first place, why because they thought they would make a killing from selling it in a year or two because everyone else was doing the exact same.

I for one welcome the Germans and the IMF I hope they can sort out the mess this country is in, as we ourselves clearly can't.

sorry for the typo's, english is not my native language.

Thats alright , my childrens native tongue will be "zee jerman" thanks to the shower running the country into the ground

johnnyskeleton

IMF/EU/Britain are lending us money and telling us how best to pay it back.

The bond markets require the same thing, only they have no clear voice.

So any loss of soverignty is minor at best.

Technically, we might have regained some of our soverignty. That is because we have a (tiny) share in the IMF and have voting rights in the EU. We have no such control over the private individuals who lend us money.

So it's a bit of a red herring in real terms.

However, it's great politics and it is making Irish people sit up and listen. Therefore, I'm happy to perpetuate the myth that we are losing soverignty.

cml387

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

IMF/EU/Britain are lending us money and telling us how best to pay it back.

The bond markets require the same thing, only they have no clear voice.

So any loss of soverignty is minor at best.

Technically, we might have regained some of our soverignty. That is because we have a (tiny) share in the IMF and have voting rights in the EU. We have no such control over the private individuals who lend us money.

So it's a bit of a red herring in real terms.

However, it's great politics and it is making Irish people sit up and listen. Therefore, I'm happy to perpetuate the myth that we are losing soverignty.

No.

The markets don't have voters to vote them out of office.The money ths time comes from German and French and British taxpayers directly.
Their governments have to persuade their respective constituents that we the Irish will buckle down and take our cuts (and no doubt will be comparing what our OAP's and teachers and civil servants etc. get paid compared to theirs).

Your complacency is surprising to say the least.

CCCP

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

However, it's great politics and it is making Irish people sit up and listen. Therefore, I'm happy to perpetuate the myth that we are losing soverignty.

I can see your point, one good thing that may come of this is that the Parish voters who consistently voted For fianna fail simply because of family loyalty's, tradition etc may actually begin to THINK about who they are voting for and choose representatives with the policies and ideals they agree with.

SkepticOne

Once you are dependent on the kindness of others (e.g. you can't raise money on the open market) you have lost effective sovereignty even though you might still have it in a legal sense. The reason is that because once you are dependent on others' kindness, they are entitled to supervise you to make sure you spend the money wisely.

Raising money on the bond markets like most countries do is a different thing. The bond markets aren't lending us money out of the goodness of their heart. They are doing so in order to maximise return on their investment. Although they can refuse future loans, they have no say in how the money they have already used and nor do they expect to have that say.

That is the big difference. The IMF are genuinely entitled to veto decisions of the Irish government prior to them being implemented.

johnnyskeleton

cml387 wrote: »

No.

The markets don't have voters to vote them out of office.The money ths time comes from German and French and British taxpayers directly.
Their governments have to persuade their respective constituents that we the Irish will buckle down and take our cuts (and no doubt will be comparing what our OAP's and teachers and civil servants etc. get paid compared to theirs).

The markets don't have voters, but they vote with their money, and they voted against the proposed running of the country. The EU/IMF are voting in favour of the country but giving specific advice on how the country should be run.

That we now have a specific voice telling us what we need to do in order to borrow money is in no way any greater loss of soverignty than having to come up with a policy and if the bond markets don't believe it, they won't lend us money. From the point of view of our soverignty it remains the same - either we do what is demanded of us or we don't borrow money externally. Those are the two choices at all times. The fact is that we didn't do what the money markets wanted us to do so they effectively stopped lending to us and now we have the choice of doing what the EU/IMF wants of us or else we balance our books. At all times, there is the same level of soverignty - we can do what we want, but if we want external money we have to meet certain conditions.

cml387 wrote: »

Your complacency is surprising to say the least.

Just because I understand the issues better than you doesn't mean I'm complacent with it or that I don't mind the IMF coming in. But the problems did not arise this week, they arose years ago and the failure to do anything then makes it pretty much too late to do anything about it now. So its not complacency when you voiced concerns at the time something could be done and, now that our fate is inevitable, to accept that inevitability.

What would you have us do exactly? Turn back time, or never borrow any money for the short-medium term?

SkepticOne wrote:

Once you are dependent on the kindness of others (e.g. you can't raise money on the open market) you have lost effective sovereignty even though you might still have it in a legal sense. The reason is that because once you are dependent on others' kindness, they are entitled to supervise you to make sure you spend the money wisely.

They provide loans with conditions attached. Not significantly different to the bond markets. Except while the bond markets have a general requirement that they money be paid somehow, the IMF/EU will tell us what has to be done to repay it. They do not have control; just as the bond markets will not lend to us if we don't look like we will repay, so too the IMF/EU will not lend to us if we don't agree to certain budgetary measures. But in terms of our control of our own destiny, there is no real loss of soverignty. If at any stage during the IMF/EU lending to us we want out, we can do so, but we will experience economic and political repercussions. But we still have that choice.

The soverignty argument IMO is based on the misguided notion that in normal market conditions we are entitled to borrow an almost unlimited amount of money and spend it howsoever we please.

The argument is kinda like someone who is heavily indebted going to his bank for a loan to cover christmas and then gets offended that the bank will only give him money for christmas if he sells his car and repays his car loan, or if he stops using his credit card, or if he works extra hours. Such a person may well blame the bank for making him sell his car or some such or claim that the bank are curtailing his freedom, but it is a nonsensicle argument. In reality, he lost his freedom when he acted irresponsibly by borrowing too much without being able to repay it.

SkepticOne wrote:

Raising money on the bond markets like most countries do is a different thing. The bond markets aren't lending us money out of the goodness of their heart. They are doing so in order to maximise return on their investment. Although they can refuse future loans, they have no say in how the money they have already used and nor do they expect to have that say.

Equally, the IMF/EU aren't doing it out of the kindness of their heart. They want to restore Ireland to a position where we can manage our debts and they do so by attaching conditions to the loans. But those conditions are similar to what the bond markets would implicity require Ireland to do in order to ensure that it can pay its debts.

SkepticOne wrote:

That is the big difference. The IMF are genuinely entitled to veto decisions of the Irish government prior to them being implemented.

Please explain how, especially as you accept that we retain full legal soverignty. Any power of the IMF to veto the government would require an amendment to Article 29 of the Constitution, and any budgetary measures it requires must still be passed by the Dail.

CCCP

Just noticed this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Ireland

Someone has changed the Irish flag to the EU flag.

PCros

Question:

When this IMF/Euro loan is up in four years I take it we get all control back on finances?

28064212

PCros wrote: »

Question:

When this IMF/Euro loan is up in four years I take it we get all control back on finances?

Yes.

Provided we take a completely isolationist stance and never need to borrow from anyone

Digitaljunkie

Well, me I think the euro is failing full stop, its only a matter of time. One currency works best in one duristiction not 28 individual ones. Self determination if you want to be in the euro properly will not work. You can think sovereignty all you like but that is the only way a single currency will work.

To think as some people do that little Ireland is the cause of all this is like when some people in our media misinterpreted the difference between how rich we were and what per capita really ment!!!

The ECB played a very large part in causing this crisis playing with interest rates or not at all,
bliddering politicians in other euro zone countries "not just little old Ireland" were allowed to finish the job.

Because each state had its own government and central bank ment their was no over all power from one central government or bank in europe, each state could do what it liked regarding their eternal finances.

The EU giving loans with conditions attached is an other reason why its not working. The central bank in each state should be shut down and the ECB have full control.

Two choices :

(A) Euro zone as a state answering to central government in Brussels. "Your in or out"

(B) Or self determination sovereignty and our own currency & central bank.

Digitaljunkie

And Constantin Gurdgiev just tweeted Spain is next!!!! Hope he's wrong or dark days ahead my friends!:eek:

Lil2010

Mac daddy wrote: »

I'm more than likely going to get shot for saying this.

..........People are now stuck because of there own greed in a crumy town that they didn't really want to move to in the first place, why because they thought they would make a killing from selling it in a year or two because everyone else was doing the exact same.

I for one welcome the Germans and the IMF I hope they can sort out the mess this country is in, as we ourselves clearly can't.

sorry for the typo's, english is not my native language.

Start reading this post and thought to myself this person cant not be Irish how right I was. I do agree with some of your comments though about how we wasted so much money etc but come on if you were Irish you would not be making statements like welcoming the Germans and the IMF it a real shame whats happening to Ireland. We have lost our independance that people fought so hard to win...

KERSPLAT!

Lil2010 wrote: »

Start reading this post and thought to myself this person cant not be Irish how right I was. I do agree with some of your comments though about how we wasted so much money etc but come on if you were Irish you would not be making statements like welcoming the Germans and the IMF it a real shame whats happening to Ireland. We have lost our independance that people fought so hard to win...

Well it's quiet clear we, as a nation, in general, can't handle our own finances so if bringing in the IMF can sort out the country then so be it.

We blame the government for this yet it was the people who voted them in. We blame the banks for their over lending, we weren't complaining when looking for 110% mortgages and buying things we clearly could not afford

If/when I go through any hardship financially I will blame 1 person... Myself

RichardAnd

IPAM wrote: »

Well it's quiet clear we, as a nation, in general, can't handle our own finances so if bringing in the IMF can sort out the country then so be it.

We blame the government for this yet it was the people who voted them in. We blame the banks for their over lending, we weren't complaining when looking for 110% mortgages and buying things we clearly could not afford

If/when I go through any hardship financially I will blame 1 person... Myself

Wise words. I'm stuck in a job I hate because I choose to leave a better one four years ago to attend college. My reasoning at the time was that, with the degree, I'd get a better job and have an easier life. I most certainly do not but is that the bankers fault or FF's? No it's mine.

zig

IPAM wrote: »

If/when I go through any hardship financially I will blame 1 person... Myself

unless you were a developer who got a loan to build ten houses, and you were not sure if you were ever going to sell them or pay back the bank, then you shouldnt blame yourself, this 'its our fault' theme is already out of fashion.
We didnt chose to intertwine tax money with bank failures, we didnt chose to receive a bailout so the gambles that european banks made with our own banks could be paid back. Yes we all spent a little more, and partied a little harder , but we did NOT cause this crisis to the extent it is now.
Lets not forget , yes we voted FF, but this was BEFORE the crisis. I think people have to stop blaming themselves for huge failures by our Government.

melekalikimaka

zig wrote: »

unless you were a developer who got a loan to build ten houses, and you were not sure if you were ever going to sell them or pay back the bank, then you shouldnt blame yourself, this 'its our fault' theme is already out of fashion.
We didnt chose to intertwine tax money with bank failures, we didnt chose to receive a bailout so the gambles that european banks made with our own banks could be paid back. Yes we all spent a little more, and partied a little harder , but we did NOT cause this crisis to the extent it is now.
Lets not forget , yes we voted FF, but this was BEFORE the crisis. I think people have to stop blaming themselves for huge failures by our Government.

taking a 110% morgage, even 100% tbh was utter stupidity in an housing market that was clearly ready to crash... I feel these people have themselves to blame for their own debt, no one else

zig

melekalikimaka wrote: »

taking a 110% morgage, even 100% tbh was utter stupidity in an housing market that was clearly ready to crash... I feel these people have themselves to blame for their own debt, no one else

Yes I definitely agree, they hold full responsibility for their own debt , i.e. their mortgage in negative equity, but this is far from holding responsibility for the debt the country now faces for generations to come.

Its not your responsibility when you buy a house to make sure the bank isnt making stupid investments and getting itself in a world of dangerous debt, its your responsibility to just make sure YOU can pay your own debt. So yes I agree with you on that end, but no way do we deserve to be paying back debts of Irish and European banks.

Scofflaw

zig wrote: »

unless you were a developer who got a loan to build ten houses, and you were not sure if you were ever going to sell them or pay back the bank, then you shouldnt blame yourself, this 'its our fault' theme is already out of fashion.
We didnt chose to intertwine tax money with bank failures, we didnt chose to receive a bailout so the gambles that european banks made with our own banks could be paid back. Yes we all spent a little more, and partied a little harder , but we did NOT cause this crisis to the extent it is now.
Lets not forget , yes we voted FF, but this was BEFORE the crisis. I think people have to stop blaming themselves for huge failures by our Government.

It was, on the other hand, at a time when Fianna Fáil were completely failing to rein in the banks' lending, failing to regulate the banks, stoking up the bubble with tax cuts for property development and purchase, and shifting our tax base over to property-related transaction taxes in order to spare the voter the pain of income tax, while blowing up both the numbers and the pay of the CS along with the minimum wage and social welfare.

People say "how could we have spotted that?" - the answer, it seems to me, is by paying more than virtually zero attention. Let's take Fianna Fáil's boasts from the preamble to the 4 year plan again:

From the late 1990s, the benefits of our booming economy were felt across every section of the population. Working-age social welfare rates are now more than twice their rate in 2000. Over the same period, the State pension almost doubled. These increases were well ahead of the cost of living.

Public service pay also increased well ahead of inflation. From 2000 to 2009 average public service salaries increased by 59%. At the same time, taxation was reduced. During the period after 2000, the entry point to income tax increased from €7,238 to €18,300 for PAYE earners and since 2000, bands have widened by 105% for the single person and married two earners. Credits have increased by 92% since their introduction in 2001. The standard and higher tax rates fell from 26% and 48% in 1997/98 to 20% and 41% by 2007.

As a result of these changes, the proportion of income earners exempt from income tax increased from 34% in 2004 to an estimated 45% in 2010. It is now estimated that for the current year, 42% of income earners will pay tax at the standard rate and just 13% will be liable at the top rate.

The substantial reductions in tax and increases in welfare were made possible by the very high level of property-related tax receipts taken in by the Exchequer during the boom years. The property boom also swelled VAT and other receipts. In 2007, capital taxes and stamp duty yielded €6.7 billion. This year, that figure is expected to fall to as low as €1.6 billion. In these dramatically changed circumstances, it is clear the State can no longer afford the current levels of social provision and personal taxation.

Now let's replace "property" with "bananas" in the last bit:

The substantial reductions in tax and increases in welfare were made possible by the very high level of banana-related tax receipts taken in by the Exchequer during the boom years. The banana boom also swelled VAT and other receipts. In 2007, capital taxes and stamp duty yielded €6.7 billion. This year, that figure is expected to fall to as low as €1.6 billion. In these dramatically changed circumstances, it is clear the State can no longer afford the current levels of social provision and personal taxation.

That's exactly what "banana republics" do - when there's a banana boom, they swell the civil service payroll and cut everybody's taxes for the sake of electoral gain. And that's what results in IMF intervention when the banana boom ends.

People are rejecting the IMF medicine because it tastes bitter - but they would have been wiser to realise we were contracting the disease that requires it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

zig

Scofflaw wrote: »

It was, on the other hand, at a time when Fianna Fáil were completely failing to rein in the banks' lending, failing to regulate the banks, stoking up the bubble with tax cuts for property development and purchase, and shifting our tax base over to property-related transaction taxes in order to spare the voter the pain of income tax, while blowing up both the numbers and the pay of the CS along with the minimum wage and social welfare.

People say "how could we have spotted that?" - the answer, it seems to me, is by paying more than virtually zero attention. Let's take Fianna Fáil's boasts from the preamble to the 4 year plan again:



Now let's replace "property" with "bananas" in the last bit:



That's exactly what "banana republics" do - when there's a banana boom, they swell the civil service payroll and cut everybody's taxes for the sake of electoral gain. And that's what results in IMF intervention.

People are rejecting the IMF medicine because it tastes bitter - but they would have been wiser to realise we were contracting the disease that requires it.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Maybe but i think you may be a bit unfair on the general population, going back to my original point , everything you mentioned above still wouldnt be nearly as bad if we didnt have a guarantee, moreso, have the guarantee extended, these were the decisions that were the key to the extent of the collapse.
Also , people dont vote against a party because they are getting tax cuts and PS rises, its not their responsibility to make sure the finances are in order for the future(potential crash).

kaiser sauze

cml387 wrote: »

No.

The markets don't have voters to vote them out of office.The money ths time comes from German and French and British taxpayers directly.
Their governments have to persuade their respective constituents that we the Irish will buckle down and take our cuts (and no doubt will be comparing what our OAP's and teachers and civil servants etc. get paid compared to theirs).

Your complacency is surprising to say the least.

The highlighted part is incorrect and I am surprised to see you so uninformed about such things.

The EFSF is going to borrow on the international markets-mainly Asian-and it is underwritten by German, French, and British taxpayers, et al.

kaiser sauze

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