Fianna Fail Supporters

optogirl

A few of my family & friends believe that there is still support for Fianna Fail out there. I find this incredible but am genuinely interested to know if any of you out there still support them and if so, in the name of all that is good, why?

x in the city

sick

every single one of them, like the guy getting 10m for sleeping walking starkers.

they are all just lol. I blame all the people in leinster who had the majority of votes to elect cowen and co at the last election.


nicely done lads

Absurdum

my Dad said to me at the weekend "sure the other crowd are no better"

lost for words :mad:

Liam Byrne

optogirl wrote: »

A few of my family & friends believe that there is still support for Fianna Fail out there. I find this incredible but am genuinely interested to know if any of you out there still support them and if so, in the name of all that is good, why?

Unfortunately there is - about 18% at the last survey.

If it's any consolation, I don't understand it either.

Krusader

Absurdum wrote: »

my Dad said to me at the weekend "sure the other crowd are no better"

lost for words :mad:

He has a point, just listened to Enda Kenny and Shatter moan and winge about the order of business in the dáil this morning getting it adjorned before it's already begun, get on with it lads and stop throwing a hissy fit and work things out :mad:

I still won't be voting FF though, bunch of crooks

And why is the Dáil never even half full, you'd expect it to be packed to the rafters for the week that's in it

optogirl

Crosáidí wrote: »

He has a point, just listened to Enda Kenny and Shatter moan and winge about the order of business in the dáil this morning getting it adjorned before it's already begun, get on with it lads and stop throwing a hissy fit and work things out :mad:

I still won't be voting FF though, bunch of crooks

And why is the Dáil never even half full, you'd expect it to be packed to the rafters for the week that's in it

It's mind boggling - either it's a last days of Rome situation and they know they are screwed so just can't be bothered turning up. Or they think they're doing a great job and just can't be bothered turning up. Either way it's appalling.

Drumpot

I dont support any party as none of them practise the morals, principles and ideals that I believe in.

I agree with your father as the other shower arent much better then FF IMO. I wont use that as a reason to vote for or against either party. I have to just go on whoever is the most credible candidate locally who supports as many of my ideals as possible.

If everybody or even half the country stressed the importance of looking after this country 1st and strong leadership being a desired quality, we would eventually get what we deserve.

Many people wont get into politics simply because we are a nation that loves being told what we want to hear.

You have two guys on front of you during the boom. One says "I will fix your pothole, hell I will get a grant for your estate so you can have a playground in your green", the other guy says "I fear that we could be heading for financial hardship soon and believe we should raise taxes, reduce our reliance on taxes that require people to spend and I want to put money away for a rainy day". . In most cases the first guy will get a majority of the votes.

Of course some people would vote for the latter, but as a society we have to grow up and accept responsibility for our poor judgement in both our government and our opposition.

To me, FF and the opposition are just a parody of the way most Irish People vote.

bamboozle

there's a huge difference between FF and 'the other lot' FF are the crowd who have bankrupted our country and greased the palms of so many of their party donators and buddies. 'the other lot' didnt.

we can never forget what FF, led by Bertie, has done to this country.

Drumpot

bamboozle wrote: »

there's a huge difference between FF and 'the other lot' FF are the crowd who have bankrupted our country and greased the palms of so many of their party donators and buddies. 'the other lot' didnt.

we can never forget what FF, led by Bertie, has done to this country.

The only differance is who pressed the button. .

Opposition parties were not against many of the practises that led us to this crisis. In many regards they were demanding more expenditure.

When I look at Gilemore's wife benefiting from 5 times the end price of property and Kenny reversing a decision to take a paycut (as a PR stunt), I am very cynical of the people who simply didnt have the power to lead us down this road. Things may of been differant and done slightly differant, but there was nothint to suggest that the oppositions strategy in terms of bank regulation would of been any differant.

Would they be less corrupt ? Possibly, nobody can say for sure (as I believe power corrupts people in power as long as FF), but you cannot ignore the performance of the opposition if you want credible progression.

Monty Burnz

It's simple - nobody is saying the opposition are brilliant, but you have to keep voting for whoever is less corrupt and incompetent, otherwise what incentive does anyone have to improve?

I still think the whole system needs a big overhaul, but our political masters will never do it unless forced to - turkeys don't vote for Christmas (unless they are FF turkeys of course, and they think there's a few bob for them in it).

Liam Byrne

Drumpot wrote: »

I dont support any party as none of them practise the morals, principles and ideals that I believe in.

I agree with your father as the other shower arent much better then FF IMO. I wont use that as a reason to vote for or against either party. I have to just go on whoever is the most credible candidate locally who supports as many of my ideals as possible.

If everybody or even half the country stressed the importance of looking after this country 1st and strong leadership being a desired quality, we would eventually get what we deserve.

I agree 100%, but there is one other issue; the if "most credible candidate locally" refuses to buck the ridiculous party whip then they could well vote against your wishes because of what their party represents.

Drumpot wrote: »

Many people wont get into politics simply because we are a nation that loves being told what we want to hear.

Unfortunately true for a larger portion of society, as indicated by the reaction to Ahern's comments a few years back; people believed that bull because they wanted to.

But the other point is that if politicians didn't lie in this manner then no-one would be basing their opinion on how closely "what politicians said" matched their wishes - they'd base it on the truth.

Drumpot wrote: »

You have two guys on front of you during the boom. One says "I will fix your pothole, hell I will get a grant for your estate so you can have a playground in your green", the other guy says "I fear that we could be heading for financial hardship soon and believe we should raise taxes, reduce our reliance on taxes that require people to spend and I want to put money away for a rainy day". . In most cases the first guy will get a majority of the votes.

Of course some people would vote for the latter, but as a society we have to grow up and accept responsibility for our poor judgement in both our government and our opposition.

Oddly enough, I'd vote for the second guy. Hence my non-vote for FF when they started this crap and also my objection to taking responsibility for others' mistakes.

Drumpot wrote: »

To me, FF and the opposition are just a parody of the way most Irish People vote.

Well you may have a point re power corrupting, and it remains to be seen whether FG & Labour would be similarly affected. The fact is, though, that at least for the moment they aren't - at least, not to the same extent, although there have been 2 occasions on which I've emailed Kenny & Gilmore telling them that some actions of their party members were unacceptable and that they wouldn't get a vote if they condoned that and didn't bring them into line - the volcano "expenses" and a recent pay/expenses rise being just two examples.

So FG & Labour aren't by any means the standard required, but they're streets ahead of the shower that are "in charge" at present.

Drumpot

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's simple - nobody is saying the opposition are brilliant, but you have to keep voting for whoever is less corrupt and incompetent, otherwise what incentive does anyone have to improve?

I still think the whole system needs a big overhaul, but our political masters will never do it unless forced to - turkeys don't vote for Christmas (unless they are FF turkeys of course, and they think there's a few bob for them in it).

The lesser of two evils . . In the absence of change and true reform, yes that is what you have to do, if you accept thats the best we can hope for you will be the prophet of our own downfall.

What I am saying is when you accept this as "job done" you will end up with the exact same shower of incompetent, corrupt people who many believe are in power today.

In the next 5 years, the electorate will accept all the lame excuses thrown out whey there hasnt been real reform and the old "it wasnt us, it was FF" will more then likely get them through 4 years of pain relatively unquestioned by an electorate interested more in getting their ounce of flesh (by getting FF out), as opposed to being interested in true change . .

I bet my ass that as soon as Labour/FG get into power a majority of the electorate will think everything is fine now and let these parties do pretty much whatever they want. It appears that few if anybody thinks change is possible which is exactly why we wont get it.

Drumpot

Liam Byrne wrote: »

So FG & Labour aren't by any means the standard required, but they're streets ahead of the shower that are "in charge" at present.

I think we agree on many things (that we still sometimes end up arguing about!). .

I want to see a better society and a better politicial structure and I just dont see voting for a differant government as a solution. I believe it only papers over the cracks.

How to get there is obviously the problem, but we need to fight for a better led country. Whatever about party preferances I believe the problems are the people at the helm as opposed to the party's original ethos.

But this starts from how people vote. I know we cant force people to value their vote properly, but we can educate and encourage people to value the importance and ramifications of voting for local politicians over national interests.

Not just that, I think what we are obviously lacking is a genuine dissenting voice that offers a credible alternative, that offers hope and promises a future government that will do whats best for its country. .

I really do think this is achievable but that we are in many ways the masters of our own downfall by believing its not possible.

oppenheimer1

Absurdum wrote: »

my Dad said to me at the weekend "sure the other crowd are no better"

lost for words :mad:

Its foolish to think that parish pump politics, short sightedness and all the bad things that are associated with FF over the last few years are the sole preserve of FF.

I'm willing to be proved wrong but go and look at the county councils across the country, particularly the non FF controlled ones. You'll see the same patronage, cute hoorism and downright idiotic decisions from all colours and creeds.

While it was FF that took is head first nationally into this mess, go read the election manifestos of the other parties from 2007. They were all promising handing out the goodies. One that particularly struck me was the one laptop per child... auction politics is everywhere.

maynooth_rules

I think a lot of them are in hiding. Everyone I talk to despises everything about FF. Im sure that some of them, when in the polling booth, will vote FF still and this literally turns my stomach. This is a word for people that do this but I cant think of it off heart. In any other country, FF support would be completely decimated by now. We are already a laughing stock, but imagine the world impression of us if FF, the party that have ruined this country and pissed away our sovereignty, were to win the Donegal by election. Even my British friends struggle to understand how the same party that have ruined this country are in power. They laugh at my explanations

irishh_bob

optogirl wrote: »

A few of my family & friends believe that there is still support for Fianna Fail out there. I find this incredible but am genuinely interested to know if any of you out there still support them and if so, in the name of all that is good, why?

a caller on liveline the other day best charechterised the irish electorate , we are like football fans , if your dad was a man utd fan , then you are a man utd fan and will be till the day you die and no matter how sh*t thier manager is and regardless of whether you face relegation due to a disastrous run , you stick with your team

motherriley

optogirl wrote: »

A few of my family & friends believe that there is still support for Fianna Fail out there. I find this incredible but am genuinely interested to know if any of you out there still support them and if so, in the name of all that is good, why?

If some other party gets in after this has settle down, all you will hear is ‘ this is what we were left by FF mess and we have to clean up!! That will be their mantra every time something goes up or changes

That is was is happening in the UK the lib/con collation keep saying every time they are called to explain why they are putting everything for the average working person and taking away welfare benefits from people in need. These politicians will employ spin doctors at a great expense to the tax payer for their spin.

In the UK Cameron employer his own personal photographer and put him on the payroll and tax payer will pay for it. He had to take his own personal photograph off and was only because he was challenged for making tax payer to foot the bill for it. All politicians are tarred with the brush....:mad:

better the devil you know......

but as a FF supporter I hope FG and whoever else prob Labour get in and then people will see how they do, inevitably FF will get back in after that and look a better proposition in everybodys eyes

Liam Byrne

irishh_bob wrote: »

a caller on liveline the other day best charechterised the irish electorate , we are like football fans , if your dad was a man utd fan , then you are a man utd fan and will be till the day you die and no matter how sh*t thier manager is and regardless of whether you face relegation due to a disastrous run , you stick with your team

My dad used to vote FF, but that was back in the days of half-decent people like Dessie O'Malley, and pre-Haughey.

He then switched to the PDs (again, before they lost the run of themselves and laid down with the rats and threw away all the country's assets through privatisation).

I'd vote for neither (even though hopefully both will be extinct next year).

So - yet again - I guess I'm somehow "different" to "the average person"......anyone know of a country where my mindset and objections to corruption and cronyism might actually fit in ?

Drumpot

maynooth_rules wrote: »

I think a lot of them are in hiding. Everyone I talk to despises everything about FF. Im sure that some of them, when in the polling booth, will vote FF still and this literally turns my stomach. This is a word for people that do this but I cant think of it off heart. In any other country, FF support would be completely decimated by now. We are already a laughing stock, but imagine the world impression of us if FF, the party that have ruined this country and pissed away our sovereignty, were to win the Donegal by election. Even my British friends struggle to understand how the same party that have ruined this country are in power. They laugh at my explanations

This is inaccurate. .

In every country this goes on and every country has their own ridiculous achilles heels with regards to politics. Why did the US revote in an obviously incapable Bush for a 2nd term ? Hell, the whole world knows that the only reason he got into power in the first place was that his brother rigged the florida elections to favour him. If the shiniest beacon of democracy is steeped in blatant corruption by its politicians and ignorance by its people, you wont see them laughing at us and we can hardly be judged by those who cant throw stones in their own glasshouse.

In fact, I have a friend who lives in the US and says while things are bad here, the corruption in US politics is on another level. This was backed up in my view by Obama actually commenting on it on the Jon Stewert show recently. He also commented on the filibuster procedure used by differant parties to obstruct progression irrespective of whether or not they agree with what is being proposed.

We are in a cocoon in this country and a majority of people think that FF is a unique party in world politics when in fact they are no differant to many differant parties in many differant countries. People in positions of power in all countries, in most cases, forget themselves and who they serve and are corrupted by their own ignorance.

I am not in anyway defending FF's actions, I am simply stating a fact that their actions are not unique to Ireland and that I believe its a common trait in democracy's.

jmayo

Crosáidí wrote: »

He has a point, just listened to Enda Kenny and Shatter moan and winge about the order of business in the dáil this morning getting it adjorned before it's already begun, get on with it lads and stop throwing a hissy fit and work things out :mad:

I still won't be voting FF though, bunch of crooks

And why is the Dáil never even half full, you'd expect it to be packed to the rafters for the week that's in it

The reason FG and indeed Labour and SF are always arguing about order of business is that it is tied up by the government.
Thus you have to get them to agree to a change in the order of business to discuss such important immediate things as the bank bailouts, the state of the HSE, the IMF coming to town.
They often don't want to discuss and debate such topics so opposition parties are left shouting and having an argument with the Ceannn Chomhairle.

It is a joke of a system and the governmnet would probably rather debate some piece of legislation rather than the immediate problems.

AFAIK ff are running second in the polls to SFin the DSW by election.
I know Donegal people can be odd with theri decisions, but FFS do they hate Kenny so much, not rate McBreaty so much or despise Gilmore that they would give support to a ff guy that hasn't a problem with biffo as his party's and country's leader ?

If DSW give ff a high vote they should be ostracised by the next government to teach them a bloody lessen.

Drumpot

Liam Byrne wrote: »

My dad used to vote FF, but that was back in the days of half-decent people like Dessie O'Malley, and pre-Haughey.

He then switched to the PDs (again, before they lost the run of themselves and laid down with the rats and threw away all the country's assets through privatisation).

I'd vote for neither (even though hopefully both will be extinct next year).

So - yet again - I guess I'm somehow "different" to "the average person"......anyone know of a country where my mindset and objections to corruption and cronyism might actually fit in ?

You should spend more time trying to educate others and challenge their reasoning . .

I am an outcast in terms of what I believe, mainly because people think its too ideologist to think that society can impartially choose a better candidate at the potential expense of their local needs. In terms of galvanising and rising from the ashes, love them or hate them, the Germans are the kind of people we should aspire to be like. Collective responsibility and collective prosperity. They havent a utopian society by any means, but they showed in times of crisis that they can pick themselves up by pulling together.

Im always at loggerheads with friends who conform to the world they know . .

The general logic by most is that getting rid of FF will get rid of corruption , me-fein politics, cute hooers and lead to a better country .

The truth is that we will just replace them with differant kinds of ones. In terms of what I see coming forward, the old lip service "we want radical reform of politics" will be used until they get into power, at which time they will be in crisis management or will always have something more important to do then address their expenses/wages/pensions and the culture that exists in politics.

bonzos

If you feel that a party which in recent times was made of such honourable people as CJH,Bertie,Ray Burke,The Flynn's,JHR,Ivor Callely,John ODonoghue,willie ODea repersents you that says alot about you and your values!

optogirl

Deleted User wrote: »

better the devil you know......

but as a FF supporter I hope FG and whoever else prob Labour get in and then people will see how they do, inevitably FF will get back in after that and look a better proposition in everybodys eyes

Really? I don't think 'Better the Devil you know' is a good mantra for politics or life in general. Would you stay with an abusive partner because of this reason? Why accept shoddy & shady characters who can't even be bothered to turn up to work & who have pi*sed away the money WE pumped into this economy.

Can you give me some reasons as to why you support FF?

Liam Byrne

Drumpot wrote: »

You should spend more time trying to educate others and challenge their reasoning . .

I've tried, but hey....I'm not "perfect" (far from it) and it's tough justifying the high moral ground all the time!

Drumpot wrote: »

In terms of galvanising and rising from the ashes, love them or hate them, the Germans are the kind of people we should aspire to be like.

Believe it or not, I'm edging towards agreeing with that.

Drumpot wrote: »

Im always at loggerheads with friends who conform to the world they know . .

Join the club! And I sympathise, because it's not fun at times!

Drumpot wrote: »

The general logic by most is that getting rid of FF will get rid of corruption , me-fein politics, cute hooers and lead to a better country .

If we could genuinely and appropriately punish their behaviour, it might send a signal to others.....but I agree that just voting them out does nothing to assist with true change. Unfortunately, when this issue is raised, you get shot down by their so-called "mandate" or "contract" (marriage is "til death do us part", and yet if the spouse turns out to be abusive you can get legal recourse from that contract).

Drumpot wrote: »

The truth is that we will just replace them with differant kinds of ones. In terms of what I see coming forward, the old lip service "we want radical reform of politics" will be used until they get into power, at which time they will be in crisis management or will always have something more important to do then address their expenses/wages/pensions and the culture that exists in politics.

Agreed. And an email that I sent to Kenny re the "volcano expenses" fiasco merely highlights that fact.......FG & Labour are better, but they're not good enough if they even allow strokes like that. While the TDs involved did cop themselves on, the fact is that people who thought it OK to claim like that are still FG party members, which is unacceptable to me.

HivemindXX

Another reason I've heard is "none of the others have any experience in government so how can you vote for them?".

Anyone with even the slightest experience with how the world works knows that the new government (assuming it's not FF) will blame the situation on the previous government. Why wouldn't they? Countries don't turn around on the night of the election.

It's also completely obvious that after a few years in opposition FF will be trying to get elected on a platform of blaming all the countries woes on the current government. The current lot will defend themselves by saying everything bad was the old governments fault and everything good is their hard work. Once again, why wouldn't they do that? It's the obvious thing to do, there might even be some truth to it.

Currently what we are telling FF is that it doesn't matter what you do, you're still going to keep getting elected. Governments need to fear the electoral consequences of mismanaging the country.

Monty Burnz

Deleted User wrote: »

better the devil you know......

but as a FF supporter I hope FG and whoever else prob Labour get in and then people will see how they do, inevitably FF will get back in after that and look a better proposition in everybodys eyes

Flynner - if you were indeed born in '87, what the hell have FF done in that time to win your undying support? From 1999 or so (when you were 12) all they did was ride a genuine export-led boom that they had nothing to do with, allowing massive tax-breaks for wealthy developers to make a short-term killing in property. They emasculated the financial regulator, putting a buffoon like Patrick Neary in charge of it - he thought he was working for the banks ffs! They bought 'industrial peace' by caving in to the public sector unions and paying them with the stamp duty from first-time buyers - the same ones who are now in massive trouble due to the property crash!

The whole property bubble has been revealed as a fraud against the Irish people by Fianna Fail. And you still support them?

I'll ask again, what have they done that makes you support them? I'm going to guess that your parents vote FF. And I'll further guess that their parents did.

Completely ridiculous behaviour. And this bankrupt country is the consequence of it - thanks mate.

Monty Burnz

Deleted User wrote: »

better the devil you know......

Wasn't this the Nazi Party's election slogan in Germany, 1946?

Monty Burnz

Monty Burnz wrote: »

Flynner - if you were indeed born in '87, what the hell have FF done in that time to win your undying support? From 1999 or so (when you were 12) all they did was ride a genuine export-led boom that they had nothing to do with, allowing massive tax-breaks for wealthy developers to make a short-term killing in property. They emasculated the financial regulator, putting a buffoon like Patrick Neary in charge of it - he thought he was working for the banks ffs! They bought 'industrial peace' by caving in to the public sector unions and paying them with the stamp duty from first-time buyers - the same ones who are now in massive trouble due to the property crash!

The whole property bubble has been revealed as a fraud against the Irish people by Fianna Fail. And you still support them?

I'll ask again, what have they done that makes you support them? I'm going to guess that your parents vote FF. And I'll further guess that their parents did.

Completely ridiculous behaviour. And this bankrupt country is the consequence of it - thanks mate.

ok ,i'll admit i made that comment very flippantly and cannot be used in this instance.

To answer your question why do I support Fianna Fail?

well as you pointed out im relatively young and FF have been in charge pretty much my whole life and i'll add im not an expert in politics at all. My first reason for supporting FF is do with my local constituency (Dun Laoghaire- Rathdown), now Hanafin and Andrews have directly helped a number of people I know, whereas when my father was looking to get in touch with Gilmore a few years ago now, he was slightly better than useless and I have heard other stories about certain councillors who i wont name.

I'd like to take this oppertunity to inform you that you were incorrect when judging who my parents and their parents voted for. First of all my parents originally come from Ballyfermot, I have no idea who is/was the most popular party, who runs/ran for election etc and who my grandparents voted for in the past.As for my parents, my father has voted for FF,FG and Labour at different times in the past. My mom has no time for any of them and voted Green up unitl the last election and I doubt she will vote in the next one.

Anyway, my second point on my support of FF, the odd time when I watch the dail, the opposition just bitch and moan (ok thats their duty blah blah..) they basically ask a question to the taoiseach and then shout him down barely allowing him start a repsonse. Anytime I have watched any political debate/show FG show me absolutely nothing to make me change my mind, bar Richard Bruton.

Anyway im allowed to have an opinion as is everyone

Essexboy

Deleted User wrote: »

ok ,i'll admit i made that comment very flippantly and cannot be used in this instance.

To answer your question why do I support Fianna Fail?

well as you pointed out im relatively young and FF have been in charge pretty much my whole life and i'll add im not an expert in politics at all. My first reason for supporting FF is do with my local constituency (Dun Laoghaire- Rathdown), now Hanafin and Andrews have directly helped a number of people I know, whereas when my father was looking to get in touch with Gilmore a few years ago now, he was slightly better than useless and I have heard other stories about certain councillors who i wont name.

I'd like to take this oppertunity to inform you that you were incorrect when judging who my parents and their parents voted for. First of all my parents originally come from Ballyfermot, I have no idea who is/was the most popular party, who runs/ran for election etc and who my grandparents voted for in the past.As for my parents, my father has voted for FF,FG and Labour at different times in the past. My mom has no time for any of them and voted Green up unitl the last election and I doubt she will vote in the next one.

Anyway, my second point on my support of FF, the odd time when I watch the dail, the opposition just bitch and moan (ok thats their duty blah blah..) they basically ask a question to the taoiseach and then shout him down barely allowing him start a repsonse. Anytime I have watched any political debate/show FG show me absolutely nothing to make me change my mind, bar Richard Bruton.

Anyway im allowed to have an opinion as is everyone

Andrews? Do you mean that ineffective tw@t who is responsible for child protection, has achieved nothing, done nothing and responds to every fresh scandal with waffle.
Still, if he got someone in Dun Laoire a pension or a grant that is OK, isn't it? :rolleyes:

Essexboy

Essexboy wrote: »

Andrews? Do you mean that ineffective tw@t who is responsible for child protection, has achieved nothing, done nothing and responds to every fresh scandal with waffle.
Still, if he got someone in Dun Laoire a pension or a grant that is OK, isn't it? :rolleyes:

in your opinion...

WebGeek

Drumpot wrote: »

The only differance is who pressed the button. .

Opposition parties were not against many of the practises that led us to this crisis. In many regards they were demanding more expenditure.

When I look at Gilemore's wife benefiting from 5 times the end price of property and Kenny reversing a decision to take a paycut (as a PR stunt), I am very cynical of the people who simply didnt have the power to lead us down this road. Things may of been differant and done slightly differant, but there was nothint to suggest that the oppositions strategy in terms of bank regulation would of been any differant.

Would they be less corrupt ? Possibly, nobody can say for sure (as I believe power corrupts people in power as long as FF), but you cannot ignore the performance of the opposition if you want credible progression.

Agreed - there is no doubt that Labour/FG would have been just as reckless with our finances. labour would have been even more in step with the unions demands. Anyone who thinks things would have been different under them is plain wrong.

So yes, the other side are not much better - we're no longer a nation.

Monty Burnz

Deleted User wrote: »

ok ,i'll admit i made that comment very flippantly and cannot be used in this instance.

To answer your question why do I support Fianna Fail?

well as you pointed out im relatively young and FF have been in charge pretty much my whole life and i'll add im not an expert in politics at all. My first reason for supporting FF is do with my local constituency (Dun Laoghaire- Rathdown), now Hanafin and Andrews have directly helped a number of people I know, whereas when my father was looking to get in touch with Gilmore a few years ago now, he was slightly better than useless and I have heard other stories about certain councillors who i wont name.

I'd like to take this oppertunity to inform you that you were incorrect when judging who my parents and their parents voted for. First of all my parents originally come from Ballyfermot, I have no idea who is/was the most popular party, who runs/ran for election etc and who my grandparents voted for in the past.As for my parents, my father has voted for FF,FG and Labour at different times in the past. My mom has no time for any of them and voted Green up unitl the last election and I doubt she will vote in the next one.

Anyway, my second point on my support of FF, the odd time when I watch the dail, the opposition just bitch and moan (ok thats their duty blah blah..) they basically ask a question to the taoiseach and then shout him down barely allowing him start a repsonse. Anytime I have watched any political debate/show FG show me absolutely nothing to make me change my mind, bar Richard Bruton.

Anyway im allowed to have an opinion as is everyone

Ok, thanks for the answer . I certainly agree that you are entitled to your opinion.

To deal with your points:

1. The help that people have received from TDs: it is NOT a TD's job to help people with passports or social welfare or anything like that. A TD's job is to make legislation. A minister's job is to manage a department. They can't do their job properly if they are helping folks in their constituencies all the time. They should be helping EVERYBODY by doing their jobs correctly. Look at it this way: how many more people are now looking for help from social welfare because FF politicians did not do their jobs in managing the economy? And the funny thing is those folks who get a little bit of help from a TD will then vote for them, even though it's the TD's fault that they need the help!


This is a problem with the Irish political system that needs to be addressed.

2. The opposition just bitch and moan: yes, they do. That is the system! What do you think FF did when they were in opposition? If I were a Martian, and I came to Ireland and saw that there were 3 main parties I could vote for, but I wasn't sure who should get my vote, how would I decide? I'd perhaps think, if a government is completely corrupt, useless and incompetent, what's the worst thing that could possibly happen? Probably either have the country conquered in a war, or go bankrupt. Now one party has already done on of those things - so we know that they are the worst possible party. How could I not vote for one of the other guys??

I hope you read more about how government works and learn more about what has happened to our country. Seriously, anybody who would vote for Fianna Failure after what they have done to the country should be made a ward of court.

Monty Burnz

WebGeek wrote: »

Agreed - there is no doubt that Labour/FG would have been just as reckless with our finances. labour would have been even more in step with the unions demands. Anyone who thinks things would have been different under them is plain wrong.

So yes, the other side are not much better - we're no longer a nation.

We will never know that, will we? Perhaps if the party in charge was not in the pockets of the builders, economic common sense would have have shown that the tax breaks were crazy, the level of borrowing and development was crazy, and that the lack of regulation was crazy? If the opposition parties had access to the same info the government has, and if they could instruct the regulator to actually do his job, perhaps this all could have been avoided? (note:the last election was too late to do anything about the boom, but we could probably have avoided the NAMA disaster, and the Anlgo guarantee disaster).

The big problem as I see it is that if FG or Lab had got in in 2002ish, they might have seen that the bubble was going a bit crazy, but if they did anything to slow it down the ****ing moron voters would have booted them out again. Fianna Failure have been a cancer in this country, but stupid voters have played a huge part in this too. They kept voting for a party that was known to be corrupt and led be corrupt people (Bertie "the money was just resting in my safe" Ahern ) and now they are astonished that the country is ruined...

murphaph

HivemindXX wrote: »

It's also completely obvious that after a few years in opposition FF will be trying to get elected on a platform of blaming all the countries woes on the current government.

We could make sure that FF aren't even in opposition, if we wanted to. I'd prefer a larger FG and Labour and even SF on the sidelines and a completely extinct FF party. They don't deserve to exist, so why give them a single preference at the next election? I will be voting for FG and somewhere down the line Labour (much as I don't want them in government, they're a better prospect to me than FF). FF simply must be obliterated for all that's good and holy. The levels of corruption and back scratching within that party are streets ahead of anyone else, though of course it goes on within FG too. We have to start somwehere though.

Essexboy

Deleted User wrote: »

in your opinion...

Name one solid, national achievement by Barry Android and I might change my opinion.

jmayo

HivemindXX wrote: »

Another reason I've heard is "none of the others have any experience in government so how can you vote for them?".

Anyone with even the slightest experience with how the world works knows that the new government (assuming it's not FF) will blame the situation on the previous government. Why wouldn't they? Countries don't turn around on the night of the election.

And the next government will be right in blaming all our problems on the governments from 2002 to today November 2010.
Indeed the government from 1997 started the seeds of over expenditure in the public sector with creation of quangoes, etc.
And the problems these governments created will be with us for the next 20 to 30 plus years.

WebGeek wrote: »

Agreed - there is no doubt that Labour/FG would have been just as reckless with our finances. labour would have been even more in step with the unions demands. Anyone who thinks things would have been different under them is plain wrong.

So yes, the other side are not much better - we're no longer a nation.

Spoken like a good ffer whether you are one of not.
When all else fails ff try and absolve themselves of blame by either telling people that they asked for it or that the other crowds would be just the same.

I can't wait to see that excuse being used by a defendant in a rape or murder trial. :rolleyes:

Fact is we don't what the others would have done exactly, but one can piece together enough to know they would not have done all that ff did.
FG and Richard Bruton gave numerous budget speeches decrying the benchmarking, Labour gave enough speeches lambasting the tax breask beeing dished out for construction of one type or another.

If these parties were in power together is it a stretch to think that their believes would have cancelled out the extremes of the other.

Thus putting the two of them together one can surmise that benchmarking would not be as bad, tax breaks like section 23, 50s would not have continued as long as they did.

One can surmise that a lot easier than the standard hypothesis made by ffers that they would have been just as bad.

Oh and I will back the opinion of another poster who labels barry andrews, yet another one of the andrews/tubridy pigsty, as a useless twat who has nothing for his remit in government.
In fact childcare is a total disgrace in this country. :mad:

Monty Burnz

jmayo wrote: »

Oh and I will back the opinion of another poster who labels andrews, yet another one of the andrews/tubridy stable, as a useless twat who has nothing for his remit in government.
In fact childcare is a total disgrace in this country. :mad:

Andrews doesn't have time to be managing children's welfare, he's too busy doing stuff for constituents that is not his job, because he knows he can pick up more votes and continue to make a fortune off us.

It's not like children's welfare is important, is it?

Floppybits

WebGeek wrote: »

Agreed - there is no doubt that Labour/FG would have been just as reckless with our finances. labour would have been even more in step with the unions demands. Anyone who thinks things would have been different under them is plain wrong.

So yes, the other side are not much better - we're no longer a nation.

I don't agree with this statement at all. The last time that Labour were in Government we had one of the best Finance ministers ever in Rurai Quinn and it was the decisions made by that finance minister in 91 or 92 to set the corporation tax rate to 12.5% that created what I would call the proper boom from about 95 till 99. This was when the country was on the right track, yes we were growing but the foundations were solid, it was based on exports but unfortunately for us FF and PD's got in 97 and stayed in for 10 years and destroyed all the good work of the Rainbow government before that with their Galway tent. This is where the problems started.

To me all the parties are as bad as each other but I have to say the better people are in the opposition parties. To me there is not one good TD in the whole of FF, can someone correct me on this?

murphaph

Floppybits wrote: »

I don't agree with this statement at all. The last time that Labour were in Government we had one of the best Finance ministers ever in Rurai Quinn and it was the decisions made by that finance minister in 91 or 92 to set the corporation tax rate to 12.5% that created what I would call the proper boom from about 95 till 99. This was when the country was on the right track, yes we were growing but the foundations were solid, it was based on exports but unfortunately for us FF and PD's got in 97 and stayed in for 10 years and destroyed all the good work of the Rainbow government before that with their Galway tent. This is where the problems started.

To me all the parties are as bad as each other but I have to say the better people are in the opposition parties. To me there is not one good TD in the whole of FF, can someone correct me on this?

As far as I'm concerned, just being in FF is enough to make you a bad TD, regardless of what you've done. This is a party totally beyond reform. It must be destroyed as it only exists for it's own ends. It has always been that way IMO.

oppenheimer1

jmayo wrote: »

Fact is we don't what the others would have done exactly, but one can piece together enough to know they would not have done all that ff did.
FG and Richard Bruton gave numerous budget speeches decrying the benchmarking, Labour gave enough speeches lambasting the tax breask beeing dished out for construction of one type or another.

If these parties were in power together is it a stretch to think that their believes would have cancelled out the extremes of the other.

Thus putting the two of them together one can surmise that benchmarking would not be as bad, tax breaks like section 23, 50s would not have continued as long as they did.

Thats one hell of an assumption to make. The money existed at the time to placate both extremes (wrt tax breaks and benchmarking) as what happened in the FF government. It would never have been a case of either or but rather both projects can be afforded so we'll buy off our supporters.

I do not think the assumption that the extremes would have cancelled each other out is valid. Such cancellations would only have occurred in straightened times which the period we're talking about was not.

The Volt

WebGeek wrote: »

Agreed - there is no doubt that Labour/FG would have been just as reckless with our finances. labour would have been even more in step with the unions demands. Anyone who thinks things would have been different under them is plain wrong.

So yes, the other side are not much better - we're no longer a nation.

Labour and FG weren't in power so unless you've some sort of supernatural brain, you can't possibly tell what either would have been like in power.

oppenheimer1

Voltwad wrote: »

Labour and FG weren't in power so unless you've some sort of supernatural brain, you can't possibly tell what either would have been like in power.

You can, from their manifestos.

Monty Burnz

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Thats one hell of an assumption to make.

But assuming that FG and Labour - parties NOT owned by the developers - would also have bankrupted the country is not one hell of an assumption?

The Volt

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

You can, from their manifestos.

So you're basically saying that the other two main parties are in every way as crooked as Fianna Fail are? Would love to see some proof

Panrich

A politician is rated in this country on his/her 'constituency work'. You will hear all about the great work that Willie O'Dea etc. do when they top the polls after every election.

People show up at these politicians clinics to get something that they are not entitled to in the main. Could you get my mother that hip operation (and push others down the queue) please? It's no wonder that we get a collection of chancers representing us when we elect them on that very basis.

Monty Burnz

Panrich wrote: »

A politician is rated in this country on his/her 'constituency work'. You will hear all about the great work that Willie O'Dea etc. do when they top the polls after every election.

People show up at these politicians clinics to get something that they are not entitled to in the main. Could you get my mother that hip operation (and push others down the queue) please? It's no wonder that we get a collection of chancers representing us when we elect them on that very basis.

Agreed. Our useless politicians are a symptom of our useless electoral system and a useless electorate.

Liam Byrne

Panrich wrote: »

You will hear all about the great work that Willie O'Dea etc. do

As someone from Limerick you will never hear me suggest that that idiot does any worthwhile work, let alone "great work".

oppenheimer1

Voltwad wrote: »

So you're basically saying that the other two main parties are in every way as crooked as Fianna Fail are? Would love to see some proof

And that there is plenty of, just look at the county councils. You can also look at the 2007 manifestos of the parties, handing out the goodies

Its ridiculous to suggest otherwise

delta720

Monty Burnz wrote: »

The big problem as I see it is that if FG or Lab had got in in 2002ish, they might have seen that the bubble was going a bit crazy, but if they did anything to slow it down the ****ing moron voters would have booted them out again.

FG and Labour shouldn't have needed to be in government to see that. As opposition they should have continuously raised the subject in the dail. And as for trying to slow things down, FG were attacking the government for not spending enough!!

At the end of the day I want a party that tells me what realistically needs to be done, and how to do it, not just 'everything they're doing is wrong, so vote for us we're better'. Although at this stage it looks like we're going down an unavoidable path.

At this stage I'll have to vote backwards, with SF on the bottom working up to who I hate least at that particular time.

Quandary

Liam Byrne wrote: »

As someone from Limerick you will never hear me suggest that that idiot does any worthwhile work, let alone "great work".

Maybe not but there are those that will still speak well of him and would prob vote for him again.

Me, im from John O'D country in Kerry and trust me, it wouldnt matter if he killed the pope - a large chunk of people in his constituency would vote for him because of the lovely library/road/school/whatever he brought into the area. IT sickens me but its a fact. I'm feel ashamed to be from the same part of the country as him.

JOD, Ahearn and the rest of FF should be dragged before the courts and held accountable for what they have done to the country. People are slamming Cowen and Lenihan, and rightly so after the inept toothless actions of the last 3 years, but lets hope to god the country never forgets what the current FF govt and their precursors have allowed to happen