Everything Feels Wrong, But It's Shooting Really Well - What Would You Do?

It wasn't me!

Okay, after speaking with FLOYDSTER at a match in ECSC some time back, he advised me to change some elements of my rifle setup to help out my position, and following on from that, my training scores are up significantly. However, the position that developed around that change is awkward, not particularly comfortable, doesn't feel right and has really quite little going for it, except that it's all going in the ten (Averaging probably closer to 99 than 98 for ten-shot groups at 25 yards for the last few sessions, had a 394/400 with an eight in it a few days ago, every flier called).

The position is lower than I typically like, north of 30 degrees, but not by much, it's very flat, with almost the entire chest on the ground, and due to the above, there's precious little purchase with the trigger hand elbow to balance the position. As such, it's not as solid as I would like. The recoil isn't bad, but isn't as tight as some positions I've had before. The pressure in my hand is decent but not painful. The biggest problem, and the one which is really getting to me, all else being tolerable for the standard of shooting I'm getting with it, is that I have to push my head up and left to sit it on the cheekpiece, and strain to keep it there, as it slips off to the right otherwise. This is making me take ages over shots to get the head position right, resulting in increased fatigue.

My notes for the next training session are to try extend the butt to offset my body a little more - as since shortening up the butt-length I'm extremely straight onto the target, hopefully resulting in the head lying more naturally on the stock, but that brings me back to the original issue which FLOYDSTER corrected, so I'll have to be very careful as to how far I go.

The real question is, is there anything else I should be trying to fix the problem, or would you even mess around with something that shoots that well, even if it's uncomfortable, strained, and plays havoc with your confidence?

dCorbus

Is it a case of just getting used to this new position?
As you say, you're putting them into the ten pretty consistently now....so something is definitely working on that front.

You've tried this new position for, what, about 3 - 4 weeks now?
Maybe more time is needed to "settle in" to what sounds like some radical, albeit minor and effective, adjustments to what was your previously long-held position?

The biggest problem, and the one which is really getting to me, all else being tolerable for the standard of shooting I'm getting with it, is that I have to push my head up and left to sit it on the cheekpiece, and strain to keep it there, as it slips off to the right otherwise

Is there any way of shifting the cheekpiece to allow for this?

Just some thoughts for the evening.....

It wasn't me!

Not really, not while keeping my head behind the sights. Coming off at a slight angle to the rifle is going to make my neck extend left naturally and the head fall on the cheekpiece, but I then lose the whole body behind the rifle effect, which adds huge solidity and is doubtless responsible for a good chunk of the improvement.

dCorbus

Well, my knowledge on this doesn't extend much further than what I already mentioned......

but

even if it's uncomfortable, strained, and plays havoc with your confidence

isn't that the way the shooting gods intended things to be.....?:D;)

FLOYDSTER

Damn!!!, that worked!!!,uuuuummmmmm I meant shoot with both eyes closed and no sling!!..........cant have these young whipper snappers shooting 99's!:D:D:D


If its uncomfortable Dave it maybe isnt right!;), some coaching would deffo help you out, as they say "it takes two"

I see a coaching session coming up!! lol

Sparks

When Matt and Geoff were going for their coaches licence, part of the training was to be shown a shooter on the line training away. They (and all the others in the course) were to watch, walk around, take notes on her position and make recommendations for improvement. Everyone on the course has notes at the end on how this small tweak should be made, or that small tweak, or whatever, all to get closer to the perfect textbook position. Matt says "Nothing. She shot nothing but tens all the time we watched her. How do you improve on that?"*

I guess the question is (unless you're in actual pain anyway), are you there to win the match or are you there to be comfortable? :pac:




*Well. It was Matt, so there were a few more words in there, but none fit for mixed company

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

When Matt and Geoff were going for their coaches licence, part of the training was to be shown a shooter on the line training away. They (and all the others in the course) were to watch, walk around, take notes on her position and make recommendations for improvement. Everyone on the course has notes at the end on how this small tweak should be made, or that small tweak, or whatever, all to get closer to the perfect textbook position. Matt says "Nothing. She shot nothing but tens all the time we watched her. How do you improve on that?"*

I guess the question is (unless you're in actual pain anyway), are you there to win the match or are you there to be comfortable? :pac:




*Well. It was Matt, so there were a few more words in there, but none fit for mixed company

The problem is, I have absolutely no confidence when I pull the trigger, because I'm straining to hold my head up into position. Relax my neck and my head slides right off the cheekpiece, so unless I adopt about eighty degrees of cant, I'm going to have to try something to fix it. Sure, I can get away with that lack of confidence in DURC, and maybe even at a match in Rathdrum, but for a selection shoot or anything higher up the food chain? It'd all fall apart.

Sparks

That's why you train a lot in any setup before taking it to stressful competitions. Right now, you have maybe two hundred rounds downrange from that position and it feels funny - when you have ten thousand rounds downrange from it, anything else will feel funny and you'll trust the position far more.

But basicly, if the group size is smaller and you're not in any actual pain, then it sounds like you just need training time and lead downrange. I mean, my current position went completely against the grain when I first got into it; but you make the mental decision to trust your coach and not second-guess them and commit to the training. Until you can do that, coaching really doesn't work; in fact, it's not even really coaching, it's just fiddling about.

Which only took me about twelve years to figure out

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

That's why you train a lot in any setup before taking it to stressful competitions. Right now, you have maybe two hundred rounds downrange from that position and it feels funny - when you have ten thousand rounds downrange from it, anything else will feel funny and you'll trust the position far more.

But basicly, if the group size is smaller and you're not in any actual pain, then it sounds like you just need training time and lead downrange. I mean, my current position went completely against the grain when I first got into it; but you make the mental decision to trust your coach and not second-guess them and commit to the training. Until you can do that, coaching really doesn't work; in fact, it's not even really coaching, it's just fiddling about.

Which only took me about twelve years to figure out

I've a good deal more than that with it, and a good bit of dry-firing. The thing is, I shouldn't have to force my head sideways onto the stock. That's just not a good prone shooting technique. Anything that forces me to take a minute to position my head for a shot before I'm not even happy to take the shot is not natural. I mean, that's just fundamentally wrong and you certainly would do everything you could to avoid it in a new shooter.

Coronal

Have you tried offsetting the buttplate to bring the rifle closer to your head? That'll rotate the rifle into you while allowing you to keep the same body position with an easier head position.

Also, I'm not sure if you've tried them on this rifle, but raiser blocks could help with it as well. It'd certainly reduce the cant needed to get the rifle to you. Any chance of pics?

Also, just keep shooting with it. You've got something that works, so be very very careful what you do to it! I know you already know it, but small carefully considered changes are key from this point.

It wasn't me!

Coronal wrote: »

Have you tried offsetting the buttplate to bring the rifle closer to your head? That'll rotate the rifle into you while allowing you to keep the same body position with an easier head position.

Also, I'm not sure if you've tried them on this rifle, but raiser blocks could help with it as well. It'd certainly reduce the cant needed to get the rifle to you. Any chance of pics?

Also, just keep shooting with it. You've got something that works, so be very very careful what you do to it! I know you already know it, but small carefully considered changes are key from this point.

I'm currently shooting with no cant and I'd quite like to keep it that way, gives me very nice clean recoil. I was looking at the System Gemini last night to try offset it laterally, but I couldn't figure out an easy way, so going to have another look at it next week. As you say, whatever it is, it is working, so I'm reluctant to change much, but it's just a weird setup, has none of the elements I'd try and get out of a new shooter at all! I'm going to make some more detailed notes on the current setup and then try work out a setup that's easier to get consistent I think, with the facility to come back to the current one.

Coronal

try work out a setup that's easier to get consistent I think, with the facility to come back to the current one.

This is the problem, though. What tends to happen, in my experience, is that you tweak something. This has the desired effect, but you notice something else. So you tweak again. And so on. And after a month or two of tweaking you suddenly have a pile of compromises and it's not working half as well as it was.

I've wasted a year, at least, on such things, only to wind up going back to an old position. Sure, I learned a lot about coaching and diagnosing problems, but that wasn't my goal. When I start again, I'll spend a night, maybe two, setting up and then leave my allen keys at home.

There is certainly a way of offsetting it laterally. You're a lot broader than I am, so that offset would have significant advantages, I imagine. This goes especially if you have a more straight on position. Maybe combine with some neck flexibility exercises also?

It wasn't me!

Coronal wrote: »

This is the problem, though. What tends to happen, in my experience, is that you tweak something. This has the desired effect, but you notice something else. So you tweak again. And so on. And after a month or two of tweaking you suddenly have a pile of compromises and it's not working half as well as it was.

I've wasted a year, at least, on such things, only to wind up going back to an old position. Sure, I learned a lot about coaching and diagnosing problems, but that wasn't my goal. When I start again, I'll spend a night, maybe two, setting up and then leave my allen keys at home.

There is certainly a way of offsetting it laterally. You're a lot broader than I am, so that offset would have significant advantages, I imagine. This goes especially if you have a more straight on position. Maybe combine with some neck flexibility exercises also?

That's kinda the problem. Broad shoulders mean that when straight on, the rifle is over there somewhere <---. Reasonably long neck does let me reach it, but I do have to cock the neck over to get it on. Relax the neck and it comes off and sits with the tip of the cheekbone on the edge of the stock. I agree about not fecking about. It's why I started this thread, to be honest, rather than just starting to change things. I just want to get something nailed down now and start hammering away at it without thinking about whether it's right.

Sparks

Bringing your head over certainly isn't textbook IWM, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work; look at Peter Sidi:




And taking time to set up your head position before a shot isn't bad, it's what most high-level shooters do. Watch video of Jozef Gonci taking a shot at a match sometime; the guy spends 90% of the time in each shot cycle just getting the position right and the head placement; then takes almost four seconds to aim and fire and follow-through. Coronal's right about tweaking - if you have something that works, tweaking can be your worst enemy.

It wasn't me!

Sparks wrote: »

Bringing your head over certainly isn't textbook IWM, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work; look at Peter Sidi:




And taking time to set up your head position before a shot isn't bad, it's what most high-level shooters do. Watch video of Jozef Gonci taking a shot at a match sometime; the guy spends 90% of the time in each shot cycle just getting the position right and the head placement; then takes almost four seconds to aim and fire and follow-through. Coronal's right about tweaking - if you have something that works, tweaking can be your worst enemy.

The problem isn't just taking the time, it's that it's a huge effort to maintain it. I'm not lacking for strength in my neck, but I'm really exerting muscle to keep it there. Not just a little bit, it's a big, big push and a lot of force. The time is just a side issue. Actually getting the head position to work consistently without it being such a massive effort (and still making me very edgy) is the main aim.

intershoot

I think its all becaue of the beard! shave the bloody thing off and quit whinging..........Floydster must have told you how to whinge as well!! :P

Coronal

My long neck and narrow shoulders have no concept of what you're talking about

Maybe forget about what you'd like to do with the cant and try a touch of that with a small lateral movement of the buttplate. Or get a coach to have a look and see what they say before you change anything. They'll probably not tell you anything you haven't read here, or thought of yourself, but having somebody who's opinion you (should) trust and you can come back to in a month for a check-up is nice.

I would change as little as possible. If you're going it alone, pick one change and make it comfortable. I'd say the lateral position. Then apply loctite* and leave to simmer for a few months. Serve.

*almost srsly...

demonloop

Coronal wrote: »

Also, I'm not sure if you've tried them on this rifle, but raiser blocks could help with it as well. It'd certainly reduce the cant needed to get the rifle to you. Any chance of pics?

.

Beat me to it

8mm would allow a fair degree of sight movement towards your loaf, with very little canting. I think Neil Stirton is on 16mm for prone.

Remember that mirrored stock is very shallow, the barrel sits way down in the stock. I'd say 8mm blocks would only raise the sights to a similar level of your old stock.

I took a look on Google Images to see if any of the celeb shooters were using blocks, but as they are all now using Bleikers :rolleyes: its hard to compare, the Bleikers sit a little higher in the stock IIRC.

It wasn't me!

demonloop wrote: »

Beat me to it

8mm would allow a fair degree of sight movement towards your loaf, with very little canting. I think Neil Stirton is on 16mm for prone.

Remember that mirrored stock is very shallow, the barrel sits way down in the stock. I'd say 8mm blocks would only raise the sights to a similar level of your old stock.

I took a look on Google Images to see if any of the celeb shooters were using blocks, but as they are all now using Bleikers :rolleyes: its hard to compare, the Bleikers sit a little higher in the stock IIRC.

So what you're saying is that I should buy a Bleiker, eh? To be honest I want to avoid blocks if at all possible, and I don't see how they're going to help when the natural position of my head leaves the sights and cheekpiece high and away from me anyway, unless I start canting it, which is something else I don't want to do, as I don't have a level, and my recoil is very nice at the moment.

Coronal

So, you're choice is to buy a Bleiker, or experiment with blocks and cant :P The thing with a large amount of blocks is that the amount of cant is very small, as demonloop was saying. Maximises the benefit of a minimal amount of cant, which should have a minimal effect on recoil. Also, stick some horizontal pins in that nice foresight of yours, they're well worth the reference they give!

Also, IIRC, you used a block on the old rifle, so the sights are sitting substantially lower than they used to...

demonloop

Its possible to get the nice recoil back with a bit of tweaking after you get the other problem sorted. A litle cant will help the other problems a lot, especially with blocks. I can't shoot prone without a block, and Sams almost converted too

On an unrelated subject I just managed to get sparks to emit from a 7002 rearsight :eek: Scared the Bejaysus outta me

Coronal

Sparks, as in Sparks, or as in you attacked it with a hammer? Either way, what the hell are you doing to a rearsight!?!

FWIW, I also use blocks for the prone rifle. Only 4mm, but it's nice.

It wasn't me!

demonloop wrote: »

Its possible to get the nice recoil back with a bit of tweaking after you get the other problem sorted. A litle cant will help the other problems a lot, especially with blocks. I can't shoot prone without a block, and Sams almost converted too

On an unrelated subject I just managed to get sparks to emit from a 7002 rearsight :eek: Scared the Bejaysus outta me

Going to have to make a list of notes and possible solutions now...

What the hell did you do to the sights?!

Sparks

You don't *have* to experiment with cant...



Not sure I'd recommend them though

Sparks

demonloop wrote: »

On an unrelated subject I just managed to get sparks to emit from a 7002 rearsight :eek: Scared the Bejaysus outta me

How do you think I felt?!!!

demonloop

Coronal wrote: »

Sparks, as in Sparks, or as in you attacked it with a hammer? Either way, what the hell are you doing to a rearsight!?!

FWIW, I also use blocks for the prone rifle. Only 4mm, but it's nice.

No, I mean real sparks! Was doing a little work with the pliers on my Sog and an allen key

Nothing sinister, doing a 20 click to 10 click 'conversion'

Freaking screws were tight

Coronal

Sparks wrote: »

You don't *have* to experiment with cant...



Not sure I'd recommend them though

How long do you think it'd take to dial them in to not shoot yourself in the arse with that kind of set up? And this is prone we're talking about here!

:P

demonloop

Sparks wrote: »

You don't *have* to experiment with cant...



Not sure I'd recommend them though

Might be a bit much that, these might be a little more subtle

http://intershoot.co.uk/acatalog/Sight_Blocks.html - Tracker blocks

I'd link a photo but it seems someone has blocked linking of images *rollseyes*

Sparks

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Going to have to make a list of notes and possible solutions now...

And video footage, as high-quality as you can get (HD camcorders are pretty cheap on ebay... just sayin'...).

The video footage I got of myself shooting in Kuortane has proven to be really quite useful, as has most of the footage I've taken while training over here. But you do need to allow for the time - you spend an hour shooting on the range, and at least another hour analysing the video, and more likely two to three hours. But, six months later, when you find you didn't write down in your notes exactly what happened at X stage in the shot routine, the video can be invaluable.

Sparks

Coronal wrote: »

How long do you think it'd take to dial them in to not shoot yourself in the arse with that kind of set up? And this is prone we're talking about here!
:P

Hey, I shot prone for years with a periscope; these wouldn't be much worse...

It wasn't me!

This wouldn't be an untypical ten-shot group. The one out on the left was called. The one just in at the bottom was also called, and the sights weren't corrected. Apart from that, the group is small and round. It's just baffling how it's being achieved with the strain I'm using.

FLOYDSTER

Fook all wrong with that Dave!;), whats it going to be like when you get comfortable!!:D

It wasn't me!

FLOYDSTER wrote: »

Fook all wrong with that Dave!;), whats it going to be like when you get comfortable!!:D

All I'm looking for is to be able to sit comfortably and be confident that I can take the shot, remaining relaxed, and get the results.

Sparks

You know it might be the effort involved that's causing the good results - you're so focussed on it that your mental game is upped and the scores go up as well.

Or, you could just be on the learning curve - and those take a while; I only finally hit the comfortable-with-it point tonight on the range for the changes Kimmo made in Kuortane back in November (granted, there was a minor hiatus in there for a little while, but still ).

sbw

Get some time on a Scatt or Noptel and see how the hold compares.

demonloop

This is what you call a cant!!

rrpc

Getting your head properly behind the sights is probably the most important thing you need to do to achieve consistent accurate shooting. If something in your position or your rifle is preventing you from doing this naturally, you'll die of fatigue long before you've finished a match.

I think Coronal suggested offsetting the butt plate to get the cheek piece closer to you and I'd concur with that. Yes, you'll probably get a different recoil, but so long as it's consistent recoil it shouldn't be a problem. Raiser blocks coupled with raising the cheek piece may improve things, but could also add neck strain to the equation.

So make small changes to the lateral offset of the butt plate first and see how that goes.

It wasn't me!

rrpc wrote: »

Getting your head properly behind the sights is probably the most important thing you need to do to achieve consistent accurate shooting. If something in your position or your rifle is preventing you from doing this naturally, you'll die of fatigue long before you've finished a match.

I think Coronal suggested offsetting the butt plate to get the cheek piece closer to you and I'd concur with that. Yes, you'll probably get a different recoil, but so long as it's consistent recoil it shouldn't be a problem. Raiser blocks coupled with raising the cheek piece may improve things, but could also add neck strain to the equation.

So make small changes to the lateral offset of the butt plate first and see how that goes.

That's sort of what I was getting at alright. No way I'd get through a match programme as things stand, certainly not in time to finish it anyway. Should hopefully get a training session in this week and will try offsetting the buttplate then, and hopefully won't suffer a drop in scores as a result.

It wasn't me!

Spent a couple of hours working through stuff this evening. Finally got to apply that tweak. The result is a prone position I've always admired, with a strong drop of the trigger hand elbow, slightly raised shoulder and lots of firm contact between elbow and mat, raised position which stays at the right height more easily, and, though there's some cant now, my head falls naturally on the cheekpiece. Going to need a level for my foresight, but will look into that shortly. Recoil isn't quite as tight, but I'm much more comfortable for longer and I have a better angle on the pistol grip and trigger, so I'm sure with a few more sessions it'll be very clean and easy. Groups were solid, but with flyers, as I hadn't been shooting and wasn't happy with my shot execution. Going to be training again tomorrow. Got a 30-shot competition to shoot, expect it to be pretty solid based on today. Cheers lads, hopefully there'll be a lot to show for this work.