If this ends in a bailout, should Cowen resign???

HellFireClub

Simple enough question, Cowen et al are telling us to basically keep our noses out of this whole episode. This is like the property bubble, everyone knew it wasn't right, every right minded citizen knew it was all going to end in tears, but if you stated your view that the property thing was a giant pyramid scheme, you were demonised and told to commit suicide.

Yet we have come to find that everyone who had concerns about the way our property industry was going, was in fact completely correct.

Yet here we are back in the same place again, we feel that we are not being fully informed, that we are feeling collectively extremely uneasy about what is unfolding before us, loss of control over our affairs, others making the decisions for us, but yet again though, we are being told that we are speaking out of turn and basically do not know what we are talking about.

So, if it turns out that on this occasion, that yet again we have been right, that the common sense view was yet again the right one to hold, and that we are right in thinking that we are heading for a bail out, despite the fact that we are being informed to the contrary, should Brian Cowen resign???

Sardonicat

It seems to me that "we" have not been in control of our own affairs for a long time. FF/PDs sold us a pig in a poke. IMF/FF, really what difference does it make now?

HellFireClub

For my own part, I'll put a 20 Euro wager on here on the forum, (if I lose, I'll make a 20 Euro donation to charity and will scan in the receipt and post it up here on the thread), that we will have agreed in principle, to a bail out for Ireland by the end of this year, if not before the budget...

Anyone else want to place a punt???

Sardonicat

It's a pretty safe bet, Hellfire!

HellFireClub

Sardonicat wrote: »

It seems to me that "we" have not been in control of our own affairs for a long time. FF/PDs sold us a pig in a poke. IMF/FF, really what difference does it make now?

You are dead right, proof of this is the fact that we have signed up to get our deficit below 3% of GDP by 2014. This is clearly something that, (rightly in my view), we are being legally held to. If we were truly independent in the fiscal sense, we could make up the rules to suit ourselves...

My issue is not with the fact that we are having greater fiscal discipline forced upon us, you couldn't but argue that this is something that is long overdue.

My issue is with the fact that a pattern of behaviour is now very evident, whereby we are being consistently talked down to and lied to by those that we have elected.

jimmycrackcorm

HellFireClub wrote: »

So, if it turns out that on this occasion, that yet again we have been right, that the common sense view was yet again the right one to hold, and that we are right in thinking that we are heading for a bail out, despite the fact that we are being informed to the contrary, should Brian Cowen resign???

If you are playing poker then you are hardly going to show all your cards up front.....

If we can get a bank bailout without any extraneous conditions such as upping CT then C & L will have played a blinder.

HellFireClub

It seems very bizarre to me that Cowen does not have to nail his flag to his mast on an issue of such national importance. He can come out and lie, mislead, blur, and confuse, but if he is proven to have been misleading the Irish people, there are no consequences that follow for him. By the end of this week he will be arguing that another very sudden change of circumstances has occured that will have caused him to have to change his position again from what it was at the start of the week, when strangely and bizarely, all along, everyone in the country could read the signs and the situation that he was trying to cover up, they will have made up their own minds about it and they will YET AGAIN, have been proven to have been 100% correct, while Cowen will have signed off on another 10-20 milion to Arthur Cox for legal advice...

Sardonicat

Yup, we've been lied to for a very long time. Seemingly, the grey suits in DoF have been lying to them as well! We are a quiet bunch. Cowen, in fact FF, should have gone of their own volition a long time ago. It's a sorry state of affairs when it comes to this to realise that for the best part of 17 years we have repeatedly voted for and accepted a bunch of idiots, crooks and liars to run our affairs for us.

I hate to say it again, but it's too late now!

Maybe "Ireland" will eventually emerge from this with a mature, responsible approach to politics. But, the typical, passive response to the last couple of days does not bode well.

Revolution9

If the IMF come in Fianna Fail should be wiped out altogether for failing the state by giving away our sovereignty

dRNk SAnTA

Once the budget it passed I will personally be out protesting for an election.

HellFireClub

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

If you are playing poker then you are hardly going to show all your cards up front.....

If we can get a bank bailout without any extraneous conditions such as upping CT then C & L will have played a blinder.

Well if you are playing poker, and you have 10 Euro in chips in front of you, after having p*ssed away the rest of your chips through crap play, and you now have jack sh*t in your hand in terms of playing cards and 98% of your stack is sitting across the table from you, you can go all in if you want, (called bluffing), but if you are playing poker with someone who knows the game and who has 5,000 chips in front of them, you're irrelevant in terms of the game, you're a nuisence and nothing more and nothing less.

Now you might get lucky and of course your 2-9 hand could connect with 999 on the flop. But the chances are, it won't pan out that way and you'll have to leave the table without your chips and review your poker strategy and come back when you have improved your game...

gandalf

If a bailout happens then in reality if the Government had any honour at all they should stand down because by requesting the bailout they will be saying publicly that they are incapable of running our economy.

However given the past history of the main party in this Government I believe they will try to hang on for dear life. As has been noted on a lot of other threads the Greens bar the odd tweeted whimper from Dan Boyle have been very absent from the political stage over the last week or so. So I would reckon your best bet for a General Election occurring after a bailout is via the Green route.

SkepticOne

They don't feel the buck stops with them. They are quite happy to point out that the opposition were not providing credible alternatives to the policies put forward by the government. Also, they feel, the banks should accept some of the blame.

oppenheimer1

HellFireClub wrote: »

For my own part, I'll put a 20 Euro wager on here on the forum, (if I lose, I'll make a 20 Euro donation to charity and will scan in the receipt and post it up here on the thread), that we will have agreed in principle, to a bail out for Ireland by the end of this year, if not before the budget...

Anyone else want to place a punt???

If you really want to make a bet I'd say its 50:50 there'll be a bailout in place by the time the markets open on Monday morning

Scofflaw

HellFireClub wrote: »

It seems very bizarre to me that Cowen does not have to nail his flag to his mast on an issue of such national importance. He can come out and lie, mislead, blur, and confuse, but if he is proven to have been misleading the Irish people, there are no consequences that follow for him. By the end of this week he will be arguing that another very sudden change of circumstances has occured that will have caused him to have to change his position again from what it was at the start of the week, when strangely and bizarely, all along, everyone in the country could read the signs and the situation that he was trying to cover up, they will have made up their own minds about it and they will YET AGAIN, have been proven to have been 100% correct, while Cowen will have signed off on another 10-20 milion to Arthur Cox for legal advice...

It's probably important to remember that one plays poker against everybody at the table.

cordially,
Scofflaw

oppenheimer1

C&L's red lines in the negotiations should be no touching the CT rate and a 5% rate maximum on the loans. Anything else and its not worth tapping the EU fund.

The other conditions I'm thinking that will be imposed such as pay reductions etc may have a long term positive effect even if its painful in the short term.

yoshytoshy

Keep cowen until the budget ,otherwise fianna fail will be looking for second chances. Get rid of them all at the budget I think!
Happy new year and all that jazz!

HellFireClub

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

If you really want to make a bet I'd say its 50:50 there'll be a bailout in place by the time the markets open on Monday morning

I'm inclined to agree with you, only the terms of this bailout that we will be taking, I imagine will be adjusted to appear as if there are no really meaningful terms & conditions attached to it that will apparently impact on us, (for example Corporation Tax, we must be allowed to continue our pathethic drumbeating for the US Multinationals operating here, half of whom have already left this country), there will be a deliberate blurring of the material facts, not unlike what happened during the Lisbon I and II referendums. But you can bet your bottom Dollar that the middle class worker will be hit for paying back what will be a loan, as opposed to a bail out, (when you are bailed out in the normal conventional sense, you might not have to repay the debt).

HellFireClub

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

C&L's red lines in the negotiations should be no touching the CT rate and a 5% rate maximum on the loans. Anything else and its not worth tapping the EU fund.

The other conditions I'm thinking that will be imposed such as pay reductions etc may have a long term positive effect even if its painful in the short term.

Under every other tax heading, we know exactly what we would take in if we increased the tax heading, for example, VAT, PAYE or PRSI.

But in the case of Corporation Tax, the discussion is not allowed to get past the argument that we might upset some US MNC's, for example Dell who have already departed these shores, Intel, who have a lot to say on ths subject of Corporation Tax, have closed down one of their fabrication plants in Ireland (FAB14)...

If the unemployed on 196 Euro a week can take a hit, and the pensioner on 230 Euro a week is going to take a hit, and the lowest paid are now going to be taking a hit, well then it is very hard to argue that a business that is in profit, cannot take a hit as well. If a business is loss making, then the issue of CT tax does not arise, only insofar as the loss can be carried forward into the next business year.

alang184

There won't be a bailout, officially. It will be "assistance", "agreement" etc. FF will spin to the death. They will never admit that it is a bailout, nor that they have done anything wrong.

My big fear is that the conditions of the IMF/EU will be masked, and delivered by the government as if they came up with it.

Cowen will never resign. He's not man enough to do it. The likely thing is a bankbench revolt which forces a leadership vote, all for the sake of the party.

I've been talking to my partner about this a lot; she is from Japan. She is just shocked at how far Cowen/FF are allowed to go in this country. She says in Japan, the PM commonly resigns so quickly and easily over much smaller things.

Inquitus

HellFireClub wrote: »

Under every other tax heading, we know exactly what we would take in if we increased the tax heading, for example, VAT, PAYE or PRSI.

But in the case of Corporation Tax, the discussion is not allowed to get past the argument that we might upset some US MNC's, for example Dell who have already departed these shores, Intel, who have a lot to say on ths subject of Corporation Tax, have closed down one of their fabrication plants in Ireland (FAB14)...

If the unemployed on 196 Euro a week can take a hit, and the pensioner on 230 Euro a week is going to take a hit, and the lowest paid are now going to be taking a hit, well then it is very hard to argue that a business that is in profit, cannot take a hit as well. If a business is loss making, then the issue of CT tax does not arise, only insofar as the loss can be carried forward into the next business year.

The MNCs can up sticks and move to a more favourable tax environment quicker than you can say Multinational Company. Ireland is no longer a manufacturing country, costs are far too high compared to Eastern Europe, India, China or Latin America. All major MNC factories here will move elsewhere as they have been doing when they reach end of life. Its no surprise at all that Dell and Intel are moving on, especially the likes of dell whos factories dont even really require skilled employees.

There are circa 300k jobs here tied up in MNCs and people dependent on those working for MNCs, if we raise Corp tax they can up and leave within a couple of years, and if you think things are bad now, wait until that happens.

Raising Corp Tax will make less money not more in the long run, due to the highly mobile nature of MNCs.

mrgaa1

NO - he should stay and lead us through this part of our history. And then when the election comes a complete wipe out of his party will take place and the humiliation should be enough as history will record this. Also the entire list of all the bank officials should be noted alongside who orchestrated, lied and betrayed their countrymen

Buford T Justice

Sardonicat wrote: »

Yup, we've been lied to for a very long time. Seemingly, the grey suits in DoF have been lying to them as well! We are a quiet bunch. Cowen, in fact FF, should have gone of their own volition a long time ago. It's a sorry state of affairs when it comes to this to realise that for the best part of 17 years we have repeatedly voted for and accepted a bunch of idiots, crooks and liars to run our affairs for us.

I hate to say it again, but it's too late now!

Maybe "Ireland" will eventually emerge from this with a mature, responsible approach to politics. But, the typical, passive response to the last couple of days does not bode well.

And whats shocking about this, is that I know a few die hard FF'ers that will still vote for them come election time, with some guff about thats the way my father voted. Thats one of the problems in this country. It really is scary that it doesn't matter what they do, ie overseeing ruination of a sovereign country and yet people will still vote FF

alang184 wrote: »

There won't be a bailout, officially. It will be "assistance", "agreement" etc. FF will spin to the death. They will never admit that it is a bailout, nor that they have done anything wrong.

My big fear is that the conditions of the IMF/EU will be masked, and delivered by the government as if they came up with it.

Cowen will never resign. He's not man enough to do it. The likely thing is a bankbench revolt which forces a leadership vote, all for the sake of the party.

I've been talking to my partner about this a lot; she is from Japan. She is just shocked at how far Cowen/FF are allowed to go in this country. She says in Japan, the PM commonly resigns so quickly and easily over much smaller things.

Indeed, the bailout is looking ever more likely Link

I too wonder what spin they will try to put on this to deny the fact that its a bailout and that its only a loan. Something about it being cheaper than the bond markets to borrow from or that kind of guff. But rest assured, they will wholeheartedly believe whatever waffle they spout off.

I agree that Cowen will never resign. The key to being in power in this country is to hold on to it for as long as you possibly can regardless. He's doing a sterling job of that at the minute and it'll need to be wrenched from his cold incompetent hands.

DrumSteve

He should resign anyway.

BeeDI

DrumSteve wrote: »

He should resign anyway.

He should resign anyway. Correct. So also should all current cabinet ministers on the basis of tainted by collective responsibility.

None of them should ever again put their names on a ballot paper:mad:

Buford T Justice

BeeDI wrote: »

He should resign anyway. Correct. So also should all current cabinet ministers on the basis of tainted by collective responsibility.

None of them should ever again put their names on a ballot paper:mad:

Yes, to answer the original question, the should unquestionably resign, along with Lie-nehan. Then again, resign or be removed, I don't mind which.
Nither of them are capable of running a race, nevermind a country. And that's just the start of it.

Lando Griffin

If i am not mistaken at the beginning of this crises Cowen said
"We will dig our way out of it"
and true to his word thats exactly what they are doing.
Cowen wont resign because he keeps telling us to forget what has happened in the past and concentrate on the future, and no doubt this is exactly what he is doing.
It looks like FF are more concerned with their own political welfare than the well being of this country.
As FF say, its important to show the markets that there is political stability and that calling an election would be damaging.
Hence, no Cowen should not resign, more to go down in history as the man who led FF to their worst general election.
Having said that, the other Jackasses in the opposition dont fill me with confidence either and the way people vote in this country it wouldn't surprise me that the will do quite well in an election.

Guramoogah

Listening to Cowen telling us that the IMF are not coming reminded me of Comical Ali (Mohammed Said al-Sahaf) telling the world's media that the American tanks were nowhere near Baghdad. Resignation is not an option. If he were an honourable individual he would fall on his own sword.

Liam Byrne

Fingers McGee wrote: »

I too wonder what spin they will try to put on this to deny the fact that its a bailout and that its only a loan. Something about it being cheaper than the bond markets to borrow from or that kind of guff. But rest assured, they will wholeheartedly believe whatever waffle they spout off.

Apparently Tony Killeen did precisely that this morning on Clare FM; didn't hear the interview but Today FM ran the clip @ 10am on the news.

BeeDI

Directors of private companies can face very serious consequences for wreckless or illegal prectices in the running of their companies, through the office of the director for corporate affairs.
Questions arising are. 1. Why no equivalent consequences for senior civil servants, in the various departments of government?
2. Ditto ministers as heads of the various departments!

thebman

HellFireClub wrote: »

Under every other tax heading, we know exactly what we would take in if we increased the tax heading, for example, VAT, PAYE or PRSI.

But in the case of Corporation Tax, the discussion is not allowed to get past the argument that we might upset some US MNC's, for example Dell who have already departed these shores, Intel, who have a lot to say on ths subject of Corporation Tax, have closed down one of their fabrication plants in Ireland (FAB14)...

If the unemployed on 196 Euro a week can take a hit, and the pensioner on 230 Euro a week is going to take a hit, and the lowest paid are now going to be taking a hit, well then it is very hard to argue that a business that is in profit, cannot take a hit as well. If a business is loss making, then the issue of CT tax does not arise, only insofar as the loss can be carried forward into the next business year.

The problem with what you ask is that you are essentially asking a foreign company to pay more tax here because we are in a bit of a bind.

If we introduced an extra tax on non-Irish citizens, many people would leave.

These companies have no loyalty to Ireland, they are here because it is financially beneficial for them to be here. If they can get more benefits elsewhere in the EU, they will move to those countries.

It is also important to remember that these large MNC don't just create the jobs for the people they hire. There are thousands of small Irish companies whose bread and butter is their contracts to these MNC.

You need to look at the full impacts of what you are suggesting.

Bob_Latchford

Should have resigned 2 years ago along with his party and people could have given a mandate to a government to clean up their mess.

People in the street dont believe what they are saying, its untenable position and has been for a while

HellFireClub

thebman wrote: »

The problem with what you ask is that you are essentially asking a foreign company to pay more tax here because we are in a bit of a bind.

If we introduced an extra tax on non-Irish citizens, many people would leave.

These companies have no loyalty to Ireland, they are here because it is financially beneficial for them to be here. If they can get more benefits elsewhere in the EU, they will move to those countries.

It is also important to remember that these large MNC don't just create the jobs for the people they hire. There are thousands of small Irish companies whose bread and butter is their contracts to these MNC.

You need to look at the full impacts of what you are suggesting.

What I'm arguing is that it is very hard to come across as a credible nation when you are offering an extremely low rate of Corporation Tax, walking around the world with a big swinging d*ck saying how great you are as a country, how superior and intellectual we are with a special rate of CT, and then the IMF having to come along and bail you out because you can't take in enough tax to run the country that you are inviting people to...

We are in this situation because we let one industry in Ireland (construction), put a saddle on us. We appear to not have learnt a single thing here from this. I'm not arguing along the Sinn Fein line that we should ramp it up to 30% or whatever, but to say it is untouchable when we are putting people to poverty in this country who have no hope of finding work in the short term, that's just plain wrong in my view...

Inquitus

HellFireClub wrote: »

I'm not arguing along the Sinn Fein line that we should ramp it up to 30% or whatever, but to say it is untouchable when we are putting people to poverty in this country who have no hope of finding work in the short term, that's just plain wrong in my view...

The reason its untouchable is because, in the long run, raising it will lower the tax take not increase it, and in doing so put the country deeper in the mire, not help us out of it.

thebman

HellFireClub wrote: »

What I'm arguing is that it is very hard to come across as a credible nation when you are offering an extremely low rate of Corporation Tax, walking around the world with a big swinging d*ck saying how great you are as a country, how superior and intellectual we are with a special rate of CT, and then the IMF having to come along and bail you out because you can't take in enough tax to run the country that you are inviting people to...

We are in this situation because we let one industry in Ireland (construction), put a saddle on us. We appear to not have learnt a single thing here from this. I'm not arguing along the Sinn Fein line that we should ramp it up to 30% or whatever, but to say it is untouchable when we are putting people to poverty in this country who have no hope of finding work in the short term, that's just plain wrong in my view...

As the other poster said, raising it will most likely lead to a lower intake of tax.

We aren't swinging any **** by keeping it low. Those statements were made in the past by different people in different economic circumstances.

There is nothing illegitimate about having an optimal tax rate on corporation tax. Other countries can claim we have it wrong and are welcome to ask us to change it but if they are, we can just as easily suggest that Germany should introduce VRT and their cars are artifically cheap to prop up their domestic car industry.

Don't see other EU countries crying out for VRT to be introduced who have manufacturers.

At the end of the day, there is nothing wrong with trying to maximise your tax intake particularly from MNC that would otherwise not be paying tax in your country. If they don't get their cheap rate here, they will find it elsewhere.

Slozer

Inquitus wrote: »

The reason its untouchable is because, in the long run, raising it will lower the tax take not increase it, and in doing so put the country deeper in the mire, not help us out of it.

This is true and the reason we are seeing good returns on corporate tax is because multinationals based here are transfering their profits to Ireland to avail of the excellent CT as we have seen with the likes of Oracle France. I have a feeling that there are also a number of other companies doing this. Raising the CT would be a major blow to our economy and the last thing we need is to scare away companies who can bring in valuable jobs.

Buford T Justice

BeeDI wrote: »

Directors of private companies can face very serious consequences for wreckless or illegal prectices in the running of their companies, through the office of the director for corporate affairs.
Questions arising are. 1. Why no equivalent consequences for senior civil servants, in the various departments of government?
2. Ditto ministers as heads of the various departments!

1) Because this gombeen Government is primarily interested in self preservation, and whatever else comes after that. Look at the independent report on the HSE, (Can't remember which one) It implicitly stated that they were only interested in Self preservation. Since nothing has been done since, I think it is logical to conclude that the Govt are the same.

2) See 1.

Lando Griffin wrote: »

It looks like FF are more concerned with their own political welfare than the well being of this country.
As FF say, its important to show the markets that there is political stability and that calling an election would be damaging.
Hence, no Cowen should not resign, more to go down in history as the man who led FF to their worst general election.

In the interests of self preservation it would probably be more suitable for him to be remember for this rather than taking the country to near complete ruination.

ravensswoop1

I've covered a lot on this on www.ottosbunker.com. check it out.

KidKeith89

HellFireClub wrote: »

For my own part, I'll put a 20 Euro wager on here on the forum, (if I lose, I'll make a 20 Euro donation to charity and will scan in the receipt and post it up here on the thread), that we will have agreed in principle, to a bail out for Ireland by the end of this year, if not before the budget...

Anyone else want to place a punt???

Yep, a pretty safe bet!
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1118/breaking1.html

It's inevitable at this stage ...

Leiva

Cowen ? ...Whos Cowen ?


If the past 48hrs does not make it crystal clear (to the doubters) of what sort of leader is at the helm of Ireland then nothing will .

His Ciúnas during this crisis is frightening .

Somebody tell him to come out from behind the Dail bench when the IMF have gone home .

Brian Lenihan may aswell be running the country as he is the face of Ireland currently .

Will the real Brian Cowen please stand up !

KidKeith89

ravensswoop1 wrote: »

I've covered a lot on this on www.ottosbunker.com. check it out.

SPAM! You're gonna get booted

thebman

How can he possibly remain leading the country and how the government possibly hold power when they have failed the state to the point that we have to go to the lender of last resort?

Seriously, think about this and throw out all parties and forget its Ireland. If we were bailing out a country and they didn't even change the ruling party that brought them to the point of requiring our help, what would you think of them?

I'd be thinking twice about ever getting my money back!

ambid

I understand the point about lost sovreignty. But honestly I trust the IMF to run this country better than this failed Fianna Fail government.

Leiva

ambid wrote: »

I understand the point about lost sovreignty. But honestly I trust the IMF to run this country better than this failed Fianna Fail government.

Stockholm Syndrome

Bob_Latchford

ambid wrote: »

I understand the point about lost sovreignty. But honestly I trust the IMF to run this country better than this failed Fianna Fail government.

if it gets to the bottom of it all it must be for the best. For 2 years we have had false bottom after false bottom.

When Argentina defaulted a by product was reducing corruption and incompetance in those who ran the country. fingers crossed

xflyer

He should but he won't resign, he and his cronies and the Greens are men and women without honour. His performance last night on the six o'clock news was pathetic, more pathetic than his drunken performance in Galway.

They have essentially handed what little independance we had to the rest of Europe who have quite rightly got sick of the lies and incompetance particularly now that it threatesn stability across Europe.

To be honest I had been expecting this. Just not as soon as this. I think most of us who thought about it knew it would happen eventually.

So today we have the boots of the occupying army from the IMF, ECB and the Commission are marching the streets of Dublin while their puppet government wrings it's hands and splutters more lies.

It's pathetic and shameful for this country. We should strike the tricolour from government buildings and raise the blue European flag instead because we have just become the first vassal state of the Union.

RobbieTheRobber

xflyer wrote: »

We should strike the tricolour from government buildings and raise the blue European flag instead because we have just become the first vassal state of the Union.

We already fly the EU flag from government buildings, as for being a vassal i dont know if thats how the eu works but ok

westtip

xflyer wrote: »

He should but he won't resign, he and his cronies and the Greens are men and women without honour. His performance last night on the six o'clock news was pathetic, more pathetic than his drunken performance in Galway.

They have essentially handed what little independance we had to the rest of Europe who have quite rightly got sick of the lies and incompetance particularly now that it threatesn stability across Europe.

To be honest I had been expecting this. Just not as soon as this. I think most of us who thought about it knew it would happen eventually.

So today we have the boots of the occupying army from the IMF, ECB and the Commission are marching the streets of Dublin while their puppet government wrings it's hands and splutters more lies.

It's pathetic and shameful for this country. We should strike the tricolour from government buildings and raise the blue European flag instead because we have just become the first vassal state of the Union.

+1 he won't resign though and he won't say sorry my god did anyone see Prick Roche on C4 news tonight, it gets worse.

Laminations

westtip wrote: »

+1 he won't resign though and he won't say sorry my god did anyone see Prick Roche on C4 news tonight, it gets worse.

Yeah I saw th Dick getting has ass handed to him and coming across as a complete bluffer. Jon Snow (and I'm paraphrasing): 'Your governments policies havent worked'...'Sorry minister but when will anyone from FF admit that the country is being bailed out?'.

Ned O Keefe has called for Lenihan to resign

ragg

Something very strange going on. Apparently cowen is being kept at more than arms length away from the talks with the IMF.

He isn't meeting them in any official capacity... Bizarre, absolutely Bizarre

hobochris

ragg wrote: »

Something very strange going on. Apparently cowen is being kept at more than arms length away from the talks with the IMF.

He isn't meeting them in any official capacity... Bizarre, absolutely Bizarre

The IMF don't do bull****, and Brian Cowen is bull**** personified. explanation in itself.