Brian Cowen lost his marbles?

femur61

Do you trust Brain Cowen to negotiate on behalf of the Irish people. He seems to have his own personal agenda, what that is I don't know. Some of his ministers say they weren't aware there were discussions going on at the weekend. The Eurozone seems to be very nervous because of Ireland. http://www.spiegel.de/international/ I'm very nervous that Brian Cowen is meeting the EU and IMF tomorrow on my and all the citizens of Irelands behalf. He seems to be disregarding all the expert advice, has he lost his marbles? That is a very genuine concern that I have.

Kristopherus

You could be right. His incompetence is beyond belief. He had some of his ministers out over the week-end vehemently denying that Ireland was in discussion with EU/ECB/IMF. Then he rants at Leaders Questions this morning. Truly unbelievable !!! No way could Enda be that bad.

RockinRolla

Hes a loose cannon

RobAMerc

No he hasn't - he knows exactly what he is doing, lying. Cowen is in it up to his neck. He is lying through his teeth in a vain effort to save a) himself and b) "the party", remember everything FF does is in that order of importance. We the people come a very long way down the priorities of this lot of scum.

FF have ran us aground, they failed us terribly and now are trying to spin it anyway possible to make it sound like its not a bail out. I bet they'll spin it to us that its a bank dig out, but not a country bail out.

the game is up - r.i.p. ireland as we know it - the IMF are here, we've joined the banana republic brigade - Argentina, Hungry, Latvia etc
well done Cowen et al.

alang184

His interview on Six-One news was particularly alarming. For once, RTE showed some balls towards the establishment; Brian Dobson was fairly pressing about how the Irish people have been misled.

Cowen kept accusing Dobson/RTE of "playing on words". But this is exactly what the government are doing now - playing on words - by refusing to admit the ongoing "bailout talks". They insist on not calling it a bailout. It's such a disgrace; pathetic. And the cheek of this clown, who is supposed to be our leader, claiming that no bailout talks are on the way, when we all know it's happening.

Succumbing to foreign financial aid would be the ultimate humiliation for Fianna Fail, the "Republican" party. So they will go to great length to prevent it being called a "bailout".

later12

Brian Cowen comes from a republican family.

His constituency is a strong republican constituency.

More than anything, I would imagine he is deeply embarrassed about his own personal failure as finance minister and as taoiseach, about his party's failure, and embarrassed about the inevitable loss of our ability to govern our own affairs under his watch. Enda Kenny's words to him of this effect in Leinster House yesterday when he talked about the loss of our independence under Cowen's watch clearly smarted with the Taoiseach.

I would imagine what you are seeing here is a man whose immense professional failure is just beginning to dawn upon him.

BeeDI

At this stage, Jackie Healy Rea, would be a safer pair of hands, negotiating with the IMF. At the very least, south Kerry might remain independent. With Cowan the whole country is sunk.

femur61

I am seriously worried.

alang184

femur61 wrote: »

I am seriously worried.

Why.

southsiderosie

femur61 wrote: »

Do you trust Brain Cowen to negotiate on behalf of the Irish people. He seems to have his own personal agenda, what that is I don't know. Some of his ministers say they weren't aware there were discussions going on at the weekend. The Eurozone seems to be very nervous because of Ireland. http://www.spiegel.de/international/ I'm very nervous that Brian Cowen is meeting the EU and IMF tomorrow on my and all the citizens of Irelands behalf. He seems to be disregarding all the expert advice, has he lost his marbles? That is a very genuine concern that I have.

I think the problem for the government is that the way they are used to dealing with a crisis is by saying everything is fine, and then having six men make midnight wink-wink-nod-nod decisions that are then imposed on the rest of the country. Well, they can't do that now because they are playing with other people's money.

The foreign press coverage of this has been fascinating: the rest of the world is stunned by the behavior of the Irish government. The headline of the Spanish news tonight was "Ireland Says No" (oh, the irony!). It is patently obvious to everyone else in Europe that Ireland is teetering on the precipice, and the fact that only about 8 FFers could be arsed to shop up to the Dail yesterday afternoon about says it all, really.

irishh_bob

later10 wrote: »

Brian Cowen comes from a republican family.

His constituency is a strong republican constituency.

More than anything, I would imagine he is deeply embarrassed about his own personal failure as finance minister and as taoiseach, about his party's failure, and embarrassed about the inevitable loss of our ability to govern our own affairs under his watch. Enda Kenny's words to him of this effect in Leinster House yesterday when he talked about the loss of our independence under Cowen's watch clearly smarted with the Taoiseach.

I would imagine what you are seeing here is a man whose immense professional failure is just beginning to dawn upon him.

lots of people in ireland are failures , that we had a weak loser at the helm is a big part of our tragedy

BeeDI

Don't any single one of us forget, that we kept putting FF back in power, election after election, for decade now. We are culpable as a nation of people.

touts

femur61 wrote: »

Do you trust Brain Cowen to negotiate on behalf of the Irish people. He seems to have his own personal agenda, what that is I don't know. Some of his ministers say they weren't aware there were discussions going on at the weekend. The Eurozone seems to be very nervous because of Ireland. http://www.spiegel.de/international/ I'm very nervous that Brian Cowen is meeting the EU and IMF tomorrow on my and all the citizens of Irelands behalf. He seems to be disregarding all the expert advice, has he lost his marbles? That is a very genuine concern that I have.

We are witnessing history in the making and the man knows it. He finally recognises that his judgement in history books will be as either a villain or a fool. He was promoted way beyond his ability. He was a broken man when he left the Health department and as his mistakes in finance and the Taoiseach's office demonstrate it is clear now that he neither learned nor recovered from that failure. It would not surprise me if he is the first Taoiseach not to have his portrait hanging in the halls of Leinster house.

He is engaged in a last desperate struggles of a man who refuses to accept his complete and utter defeat. It reminds me of Hitler moving fictional armies around on a map as the red army moved in. The delusional hope of a miracle is all that Cowen has left.

His time in public office is now down to days if not hours. Ireland will survive this crisis. We may even come through this trial stronger. Cowen will not. We are witnessing his downfall.

Liam Byrne

BeeDI wrote: »

Don't any single one of us forget, that we kept putting FF back in power, election after election, for decade now. We are culpable as a nation of people.

I don't know if you're speaking for yourself, but I certainly never put, or even assisted putting, FF in power, ever the original Haughey corruption era.

two wheels good

later10 wrote: »

Brian Cowen comes from a republican family.

His constituency is a strong republican constituency.

More than anything, I would imagine he is deeply embarrassed about his own personal failure as finance minister and as taoiseach, about his party's failure, and embarrassed about the inevitable loss of our ability to govern our own affairs under his watch. Enda Kenny's words to him of this effect in Leinster House yesterday when he talked about the loss of our independence under Cowen's watch clearly smarted with the Taoiseach.

I would imagine what you are seeing here is a man whose immense professional failure is just beginning to dawn upon him.

republican family? republican constituency?
Do you just mean patriotic?

This country is cursed with the mindset of civil war, pro\anti treaty politics. That why we still have blind allegiance to FF or FG.

If what you surmise about Cowen is true the only honourable course of action for him is to resign.

ICE HOUSE

Bailout, What bailout?
I thought they were over here on a stag weekend.

Scofflaw

touts wrote: »

We are witnessing history in the making and the man knows it. He finally recognises that his judgement in history books will be as either a villain or a fool. He was promoted way beyond his ability. He was a broken man when he left the Health department and as his mistakes in finance and the Taoiseach's office demonstrate it is clear now that he neither learned nor recovered from that failure. It would not surprise me if he is the first Taoiseach not to have his portrait hanging in the halls of Leinster house.

He is engaged in a last desperate struggles of a man who refuses to accept his complete and utter defeat. It reminds me of Hitler moving fictional armies around on a map as the red army moved in. The delusional hope of a miracle is all that Cowen has left.

His time in public office is now down to days if not hours. Ireland will survive this crisis. We may even come through this trial stronger. Cowen will not. We are witnessing his downfall.

Interestingly enough, that's not what some people think:

The Irish are a nation of gamblers. ... it would be dangerous to bet against Dublin winning its high-stakes game of poker with the European Union over a possible bailout.

Ireland's aim is to secure a deal on the most favorable terms, including crucially the retention of its ultralow corporate-tax rate, a potent symbol of economic sovereignty that the minority Fianna Fail government is determined to protect at all costs ahead of next year's likely elections.

Dublin still has the strongest hand. The first thing in its favor is that no one can force it to accept a bailout; Ireland has to ask the European Union for help. And given the Irish government is fully funded until the middle of next year, it can in theory drag this situation out for months. If it did that, of course, contagion would likely spread quickly across the euro zone, as Tuesday's stock and bond selloffs showed, threatening the survival of the common currency. In that sense, Ireland is armed with a nuclear weapon.

In response, the EU is armed only with bows and arrows. There is very little it can do to force Dublin to seek an early bailout. The one pressure point is Ireland's banks, now only able to survive thanks to European Central Bank funding. But so long as the banks are still able to post eligible collateral, the ECB has little option but to continue accepting it, even though its lending to Ireland now totals €130 billion, equivalent to 80% of Irish GDP.

Source: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704648604575620251565111376.html

I can't help but recall two things - first, this is the same guy who finally got the European Constitution negotiated; and second, that nobody has ever profited by underestimating Fianna Fáil when they think their political survival is at stake.

cordially,
Scofflaw

westtip

two wheels good wrote: »

If what you surmise about Cowen is true the only honourable course of action for him is to resign.

Tonight would be good. He should not only resign but grovel with an apology.

My god did anyone hear Prick Roche on Newstalk today....a real embarrassment to the nation.

BeeDI

BeeDI wrote: »

Don't any single one of us forget, that we kept putting FF back in power, election after election, for decade now. We are culpable as a nation of people.

Many of the "we" you speak of didn't actually, but there was enough fu**tards left over from the Haughey and Aherne eras to keep the f**kers in government.

lmaopml

alang184 wrote: »

His interview on Six-One news was particularly alarming. For once, RTE showed some balls towards the establishment; Brian Dobson was fairly pressing about how the Irish people have been misled.

Cowen kept accusing Dobson/RTE of "playing on words". But this is exactly what the government are doing now - playing on words - by refusing to admit the ongoing "bailout talks". They insist on not calling it a bailout. It's such a disgrace; pathetic. And the cheek of this clown, who is supposed to be our leader, claiming that no bailout talks are on the way, when we all know it's happening.

Succumbing to foreign financial aid would be the ultimate humiliation for Fianna Fail, the "Republican" party. So they will go to great length to prevent it being called a "bailout".

In fairness he couldn't have answered Dobsons question without jeopardising talks. The media know this, it's obvious, but keep asking anyway, and so does Enda and Gilmore....( such concern )

He did say he has been in 'talks' all along but has not made an 'application', this is most likely the truth - In other words Europe came to us.

I'm more worried that there isn't a single one of em worth trusting completely, but at the moment it's best to wait and see what transpires after the budget announcement..

The frenzy is contageous..and there's always the bandwagon brigade.

Whether it's bailout or budget, or the people pulling the strings are our Government or the IMF the figures are all the same. I would have preferred the no bailout option - I'm holding my breath till budget day.

*Keels over*

stepbar

Cowan is clearly leading us up the path of "De Nile".....

themadchef

RoverJames wrote: »

he looks like an alcoholic pastry chef.

On a good day

Back on topic. As much as i disrespect the man i wouldint want to be in his shoes right now. How can he sleep, eat, or rest. The future of many rests in the hands of few. If he's not a little bit crazy by now then he's not human.

peasant

Scofflaw wrote: »

I can't help but recall two things - first, this is the same guy who finally got the European Constitution negotiated; and second, that nobody has ever profited by underestimating Fianna Fáil when they think their political survival is at stake.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Indeed, this might be the one (and pretty much only) time where we could actually use that hard-necked FF gombeenism in the country's favour.

If the governement were to topple tomorrow, Inda or Gilmore would just hand it over to the EU, lock, stock and barrel...with a ribbon and flowers.

Let Cowen do a Healy-Rae style deal with the EU/IMF, sell them a real stinker ...and then he can feck off

EDIT: FF right now certainly are more motivated than anyone else to save even the tiniest shred of advantage out of this whole affair ...they couldn't possibly sink any lower, these negotiations are their last chance for a bit of glory for months (and possibly years) to come

dan_d

Wholeheartedly agree with themadchef.How either of the Brians can have a minute's rest I don't know - if I was Brian Lenihan I'd have thrown in the towel long ago and be spending some time with my family (I'm sorry, the man just looks sick)

Don't underestimate Brian Cowen. They are playing with words, but they are doing it because they've been shoved into a corner by the EU. The rest of the world may be looking on by the way, but a lot of Europeans are supporting us in our "no" response - many seem more worried about Portugal than us. I think there is a feeling that we are being shoved into this and that the Eurozone is not necessarily a good thing (esp after Greece), so they are quite happy to not have to bail us out, regardless of what their leaders want.

A cornered animal is vicious and right now, our 2 leaders (not counting Mary Coughlan, she's a nonentity right now) are, to an extent, cornered. We're playing with the big boys, but we don't play the game the way they do. I know this sounds completely ridiculous, but I think there's a whole lot of people out there looking at this through a "screw FF, they're all dumb" coloured haze, and I'd be careful of that.No matter how you look at it, we have ticked a lot of the EU's boxes - we "saved" our banks, rather than let them go bust, we brought in budget cuts quickly, and we're heading for a whole lot more, we're giving them their 4 year austerity plan in detail and our first budget will frontload a lot of the cuts. Dress it up how you will, call it right or wrong, we've done a lot more than some of the other countries out there - and we're not asking. We're being pushed.

I don't think they're lying. I think they are making their advantage very, very clear....shouting it from the roof tops that if we DO have to take a bailout it will only be because we are being forced into it.And that looks pretty bad for the EU, which is not helped by statements like this....

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/barroso-ireland-making-enormous-efforts-482209.html

And, should we be forced into it, they want to be playing with the upper hand - getting the best deal possible for Ireland's reputation, whatever about it's actual banking system.

Just my 2 cents - I wouldn't write the 2 of them off. There's a lot more going on there than meets the eye.

smokin ace

first of all i dont support any political party and i did not fall into the trap of the trap of the good times because i was listening to the people that knew what was going to happen

i feel a bit sorry for biffo because people is fully pointing the finger for all the countrys mess he was not the only one that ruined this country everybody did as the pure greed in this country was unreal in the good times everyone was greedy pigs and always wanted more and more the banks the government the people of this country everyones to blame and not just biffo alone i know he and his government party created and turned a blind eye to let the mess happen but its not just him alone

would this country be in such a mess if people listened to the economists that were warning of the property crash nobody listened and part of society thought the good times would never end the banks were shovelling money out to everyone and anyone
people lied about there income to get un-believe sums of money for houses cars holidays and still went back to the bank for more not thinking of the future people thought they would have a job for life THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS JOB FOR LIFE and people forgot that

if the banks were not falling apart to be honest i dont think the mess would be as bad as what it is now

but back to biffo and the current government they made mistakes and some big ones the likes of anglo-nama(i dont think will make money)-and total waste of tax payers money(not unlike the people who got all the money out of the banks and wasted it)

BUT THE PEOPLE THAT THOUGHT THE PARTY WOULD LAST FOREVER ARE TO SHOULDER SOME OF THE BLAME ASWELL

BRIAN LENIHAN SHOULD HAVE BEEN TAOISEACH AFTER BERTIE NOT BRIAN COWAN

Kristopherus

RoverJames wrote: »

Slob of a man, disgraceful that he is representing the country in any capacity, he looks like an alcoholic pastry chef.

Hey!Hey!Hey! Don't be insulting the Pastry Chefs :D:D

RealityCheck

Ah don't worry people they are negotiating with the Department of Finance, the Financial Regulator and the Central Bank. Cowen won't be around.

ashleey

Bear in mind that these brilliant negotiators got legged over by the banks so they can't be that proficient

Liam Byrne

smokin ace wrote: »

he was not the only one that ruined this country everybody did as the pure greed in this country was unreal in the good times everyone was greedy pigs and always wanted more and more the banks the government the people of this country everyones to blame

Incorrect.

smokin ace wrote: »

would this country be in such a mess if people listened to the economists that were warning of the property crash nobody listened and part of society thought the good times would never end the banks were shovelling money out to everyone and anyone
people lied about there income to get un-believe sums of money for houses cars holidays and still went back to the bank for more not thinking of the future

Firstly : The then Taoiseach rubbished the warnings, giving less informed people some misdirected peace of mind.

Secondly : Some people did what you said above.

I turned down a loan that was twice the size of what I could afford. I have NEVER lied about my income and have NOT gone back to the bank for more.

smokin ace wrote: »

BUT THE PEOPLE THAT THOUGHT THE PARTY WOULD LAST FOREVER ARE TO SHOULDER SOME OF THE BLAME ASWELL

And what of the people who didn't view it as a party and didn't think it would last forever ? Your phrase blames those who did, which appears fair enough, but since you earlier suggested that this was "everyone" you have negated your point by being incorrect earlier.

two wheels good

dan_d wrote: »

There's a lot more going on there than meets the eye.

I heard that repeatedly around the time of the bank guarantee and then about the bailout and the implication was: .
"Oh, they know what they're doing. Just trust them. How could you or I understand the complexity of the problem".

Come to think of it, I heard it many times in the UK to claim the justify the Iraq invasion in 2003 and hoodwink the public about WMD.

Dyr

later10 wrote: »

Brian Cowen comes from a republican family.

His constituency is a strong republican constituency.

Really? I thought he was fianna fail.

smokin ace

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Incorrect.



Firstly : The then Taoiseach rubbished the warnings, giving less informed people some misdirected peace of mind.

Secondly : Some people did what you said above.

I turned down a loan that was twice the size of what I could afford. I have NEVER lied about my income and have NOT gone back to the bank for more.


And what of the people who didn't view it as a party and didn't think it would last forever ? Your phrase blames those who did, which appears fair enough, but since you earlier suggested that this was "everyone" you have negated your point by being incorrect earlier.

why is this incorrect

but people had there own choice to decide for themselves if it was rubbish or not

well good for you as you realised that you could not afford to get such unrealistic amounts of cash knowing you could not pay it back but many thousands of people did not realise what you did

i for one knew it would not last and the bubble had to burst so i did not join the party and get into debt up to my ears like i said before many people knew it was not going to last but still decided to get mental amounts of money from the banks not thinking of the future
everyone is to blame as the people of this country let this happen and that includes me and you because we did not try and do anything about it but now me and you and all our friends and family will have to pay for it

Liam Byrne

smokin ace wrote: »

ieveryone is to blame as the people of this country let this happen and that includes me and you because we did not try and do anything about it but now me and you and all our friends and family will have to pay for it

How do you know that I "did not try to do anything about it" ?

You can't lay blame on me and then spout rubbish like that - you haven't a clue what I did or didn't do! :mad:

You made claims earlier about "everyone" and were proven wrong; please don't backpedal having been shown up on that and make more claims about other people when you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

BeeDI

BeeDI wrote: »

Don't any single one of us forget, that we kept putting FF back in power, election after election, for decade now. We are culpable as a nation of people.

have you seen the poll in Donegal South West??

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2010/1117/breaking48.html

there is no hope until we change these peoples minds!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

smokin ace

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How do you know that I "did not try to do anything about it" ?

You can't lay blame on me and then spout rubbish like that - you haven't a clue what I did or didn't do! :mad:

You made claims earlier about "everyone" and were proven wrong; please don't backpedal having been shown up on that and make more claims about other people when you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

well what ever you were doing clearly did not succeed

Scofflaw

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How do you know that I "did not try to do anything about it" ?

You can't lay blame on me and then spout rubbish like that - you haven't a clue what I did or didn't do! :mad:

You made claims earlier about "everyone" and were proven wrong; please don't backpedal having been shown up on that and make more claims about other people when you haven't a clue what you're talking about.

Liam, if you don't stop fighting with everyone who uses the word "we" or "our" when it comes to national problems, I will really have no choice but to ban you for persistent thread derailment and monomania.

Give. It. A. Rest.

moderately,
Scofflaw

dixiefly

Interesting comparison between Cowen and Angela Merkel in todays Indo. Well worth reading.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/thomas-molloy-gulf-between-cowen-and-merkel-not-easily-bridged-2423739.html?service=Print

Independent.ie
Thomas Molloy: Gulf between Cowen and Merkel not easily bridged
By Thomas Molloy
Wednesday November 17 2010

IN times of crisis, personality, instinct and personal history matter. Brian Cowen and Angela Merkel, the two people at the centre of this week's drama, are divided by a gulf in belief and upbringing that is almost impossible to bridge.

It goes a long way to explaining why the leaders of two long-term allies are so unable to find common ground.

Merkel is the daughter of a Lutheran pastor who was discriminated against by the authorities for her father's religious beliefs. She trained as a scientist and then became a dissident, fighting the system in East Germany when few thought the communist government would ever fall.

She then fought the backwoodsmen within Germany's conservative CDU party and became her country's first woman leader and first East German leader.

Every turn in Merkel's life has taught her to believe in her own instincts, distrust received wisdom and to fight injustice. The received wisdom said the Cold War would continue indefinitely. The received wisdom said no woman and no East German could lead Germany. The received wisdom said that Germany was the sick man of Europe and was doomed to stagnation and decline.

Cowen's life experience has been very different. He grew up in a midlands pub rather than an East German vicarage, the son of a politician who was part of the governing elite. After attending one of the most expensive private schools in the country, he happily slipped into politics and the law where he was seen as a safe pair of hands who could steady a rocking boat.

Cowen is the consummate insider who spent his formative years in the comfort of the Dail while Merkel is an outsider who spent her formative years dodging the KGB. He is an instinctive conservative whose legal training and Catholic beliefs give him an exaggerated respect for the rule of law and the rules of finance.

....

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Laminations

smokin ace wrote: »

why is this incorrect

but people had there own choice to decide for themselves if it was rubbish or not

Of course people have a choice to believe their government or not but there is a trust there and we should be able to believe our government.

If a man goes to his doctor for reassurance about a pain in his chest and his doctor tells him it is heart burn but two months later he dies of cancer, who do you hold responsible? The doctor for incompetence and/or mistruths or the man for being so silly as to actually trust his doctor and not go get multiple opinions (all of which of course, according to your logic, he'd be naive to trust). People were fed bullsh1t, yes more shame them for believing it all but their is an expectancy there that you can believe your government. We need that expectancy.

This government mismanaged the economy and lied to the electorate. Now you may expect the electorate to be very clued in and politically aware, questioning every move their elected representatives make, but thats fairytale stuff. Reality is people elect a government so they don't have to worry about these things, they entrust these individuals with looking after national issues. They betrayed our trust (and if you cant trust your own government, kiss goodbye to democracy). They need to be severely punished for bringing politics into disrepute. We have to be able to trust our government again, and so we need a new government pronto quick. The markets have to be able to trust our government again. Having a credible trustworthy government is important if we wanna drag ourselves out of this. And any greedy individuals who bought multiple homes will be held accountable by their creditors, we are responsible for holding the government to account - its become so obvious now that it is not, and never was heart burn that was the ill of this country, it was cancer, so we cant trust this government.

Monty Burnz

Scofflaw wrote: »

Liam, if you don't stop fighting with everyone who uses the word "we" or "our" when it comes to national problems, I will really have no choice but to ban you for persistent thread derailment and monomania.

Give. It. A. Rest.

moderately,
Scofflaw

I think it is valid though when someone claims 'we all went mad', 'we all spent too much' etc. We all didn't. Probably a majority did, but an awful lot of people didn't. It seems that there is a campaign to create a narrative that everybody lost the head, and the feeble minded and those with a vested interest (of whatever type) are quick to accept and propagate it. Even our friend Smokin Ace says he wasn't fooled and didn't go mad, and the very next sentence he tells us that everyone did.

I think it's important to call 'bull****' on this nonsense before it gains any more traction in the popular imagination.

Liam Byrne

Scofflaw wrote: »

Liam, if you don't stop fighting with everyone who uses the word "we" or "our" when it comes to national problems, I will really have no choice but to ban you for persistent thread derailment and monomania.

Give. It. A. Rest.

moderately,
Scofflaw

I'm sorry, but why, exactly ?

Surely it would be more neutral and more appropriate to pull people up on misuse of those misleading words ?

Why ban someone who's merely trying to get people to state actual facts and let those who are trying to create a misleading "colloquial" use off scot-free ?

I'll acknowledge the above and lay off a little where possible, but in return I would like to see a reciprocal arrangement by boards mods where those who use such misleading phrases as justification are pulled up on it.

Also - they're not using the words to describe "national problems", they're using them to allocate blame to one of the causes of national problems. We (collectively) have a problem; we, however, didn't cause it. If someone uses it in the former meaning (which you alluded to in your post) then I have no problem. If someone uses it in the latter meaning, it doesn't relate to what you posted, and is misleading.

After all, I'm not the one misrepresenting the facts through careless (or deliberately misleading) use of language.

virmilitaris

RockinRolla wrote: »

Hes a loose cannon

Like McBain ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgMqc-eSrzQ

[MOD]Ask yourself - is this a post that contributes to political discussion, or is it a piece of silly sophomore humour? That question is rhetorical, by the way.[/MOD]

Scofflaw

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm sorry, but why, exactly ?

Surely it would be more neutral and more appropriate to pull people up on misuse of those misleading words ?

Why ban someone who's merely trying to get people to state actual facts and let those who are trying to create a misleading "colloquial" use off scot-free ?

I'll acknowledge the above and lay off a little where possible, but in return I would like to see a reciprocal arrangement by boards mods where those who use such misleading phrases as justification are pulled up on it.

After all, I'm not the one misrepresenting the facts through careless (or deliberately misleading) use of language.

I don't care what the reason is - I only care that you repeatedly derail threads into personal battles with other posters.

If you want to discuss this further, it has to go off thread.

moderately,
Scofflaw

smokin ace

Laminations wrote: »

Of course people have a choice to believe their government or not but there is a trust there and we should be able to believe our government.

If a man goes to his doctor for reassurance about a pain in his chest and his doctor tells him it is heart burn but two months later he dies of cancer, who do you hold responsible? The doctor for incompetence and/or mistruths or the man for being so silly as to actually trust his doctor and not go get multiple opinions (all of which of course, according to your logic, he'd be naive to trust). People were fed bullsh1t, yes more shame them for believing it all but their is an expectancy there that you can believe your government. We need that expectancy.

This government mismanaged the economy and lied to the electorate. Now you may expect the electorate to be very clued in and politically aware, questioning every move their elected representatives make, but thats fairytale stuff. Reality is people elect a government so they don't have to worry about these things, they entrust these individuals with looking after national issues. They betrayed our trust (and if you cant trust your own government, kiss goodbye to democracy). They need to be severely punished for bringing politics into disrepute. We have to be able to trust our government again, and so we need a new government pronto quick. The markets have to be able to trust our government again. Having a credible trustworthy government is important if we wanna drag ourselves out of this. And any greedy individuals who bought multiple homes will be held accountable by their creditors, we are responsible for holding the government to account - its become so obvious now that it is not, and never was heart burn that was the ill of this country, it was cancer, so we cant trust this government.

i fully agree with some of your points but look back at all the so called dig outs and the Political corruption and greed in the government in the good times and they were still voted back into power so someone had to vote them back in and it was not the english french or germans(no offence to any of these)

we turned a blind eye to all of it even back in the party times when bertie was at the fore front and us as a nation could have changed it way back then knowing of all the waste of money and corruption that was going on but we decided not to because the country was awash with money the banks were giving anyone money talking up peoples income to get more of a loan
people getting loans for way over priced houses two cars on the drive expensive holidays the government is not to blame for this it was the peoples choice to sign the dotted line

some people did not decide to get get up to there ears in debt and i was one of them along with a lot of other people here and that was our choice not to do so

i personally believe cowan was shafted with the job as bertie ran for the hills when he knew what was coming down the line and the damage was already done at that stage i know cowan was in finance and knew the numbers but i believe he did not know who bad the banks were correct me if i am wrong but was david drumm not fiddling anglos books to make it look like anglo had more cash reserves

this thread is about if cowan has lost his marbles but i dont think he has i believe cowan and lenihan are holding back from a full ecb/imf bail out as to try and keep some of this countrys important decisions be made by the irish government not by some one in the eu

Liam Byrne

smokin ace wrote: »

this thread is about if cowan has lost his marbles but i dont think he has i believe cowan and lenihan are holding back from a full ecb/imf bail out as to try and keep some of this countrys important decisions be made by the irish government not by some one in the eu

I actually believe it's the exact opposite, that Cowen & Lenihan are actually trying to make it seem like the EU are to blame for the cuts so that they can wash their hands of it.

Even today's phrasing implies that, with the EU saying that "Ireland can get help if it asks" and Cowen - when asked whether there would be a bailout - not saying "no", but instead claiming "we haven't formally asked".

Cowen & FF do not want to be viewed as responsible for anything; the crisis, the bank bailouts, or even the cuts required to fix things.

Which begs the question why the hell we're paying their wages.

lmaopml

Liam Byrne wrote: »

Which begs the question why the hell we're paying their wages.

Lenihan is pretty sick; money is possibly not the motivator?

Cowen is ridiculed on a regular basis and doesn't look like he's exactly taking time out to enjoy rolling in the dosh and sleeping well since he took office.

I wouldn't like the job anyways, and whatever they are - we're stuck with them for the time being. We can blame it all on the OAP's and the greedy people who bought property later..

There are plenty of people who would have been too young to vote too, and it's certainly not their fault, but sh*t happens.

Laminations

smokin ace wrote: »

i fully agree with some of your points but look back at all the so called dig outs and the Political corruption and greed in the government in the good times and they were still voted back into power so someone had to vote them back in and it was not the english french or germans(no offence to any of these)

In 2007 the cancerous bulge in our chest could maybe have passed for heart burn, some people may have still been fooled (40% was it?) and they may have let themselves be fooled as they didn't want to confront the reality. The government still held credibility for many back then but times have changed - it is obvious even to a child that our chest pain is not merely heart burn and that the government cant be trusted.

Hmmmm, I'll put it this way. A woman slowly lifts her trouser leg and some in the audience see immediately that she is revealing a fake prosthetic leg. Its not 100% obvious but those clued in start to see it. But the majority shout them down because they want to see more of this leg and the woman on stage promises them more. That was 2007. By now the woman has no trousers left, the crap is obvious, the mask has slipped, everyone in the audience is fuming that they were conned, they expected some nice can can. They want the woman gone but there are still some (family, friends and loyal beneficiaries that protect the fraud, and castigate the audience blaming them for believing in the first place.

Eventually we all stop believing in Santa Claus, doesn't make people stupid for at one time being fooled by an overweight alcoholic promising you presents.

hinault

I'm not sure that Cowen has started to realise just how serious the crisis facing this country actually is.

I watched his interview on the Six One news tonight and it would appear that he thinks everything will be sorted out!

P. Breathnach

hinault wrote: »

I'm not sure that Cowen has started to realise just how serious the crisis facing this country actually is.

I watched his interview on the Six One news tonight and it would appear that he thinks everything will be sorted out!

I think so, too. That is why I am not trying to acquire a gun.

There will be costs, enormous costs, but we will be back here next year and the year after and the year after that, still bitching about how awful things are, and complaining about how incompetent our FG/Lab coalition is.

hinault

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think so, too. That is why I am not trying to acquire a gun.

There will be costs, enormous costs, but we will be back here next year and the year after and the year after that, still bitching about how awful things are, and complaining about how incompetent our FG/Lab coalition is.

err, FG/Lab didn't put us in the position we now find ourselves in.

Cowen appears to ignore the fact that his policies have landed us in this utter mess.

The man is clearly delusional in my view.

Scofflaw

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I think so, too. That is why I am not trying to acquire a gun.

There will be costs, enormous costs, but we will be back here next year and the year after and the year after that, still bitching about how awful things are, and complaining about how incompetent our FG/Lab coalition is.

Most crises result in very small changes in society and politics. Even catastrophes result in surprisingly little.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Amhran Nua

Scofflaw wrote: »

ISource: http://online.wsj.com

Not a great idea to be quoting a Murdoch mouthpiece as a source, the WSJ is not a reliable publication any more.

Cowen is far out of his depth, as is the entire FF party. I don't hold a great antagonism towards them, despite their many failures, rather I feel pity for the most part. Their greatest strength is in counting on getting lucky, and so their existence as a force in Irish politics is by their own nature going to be short lived in the grand scheme of things.

This is the man the thread refers to: