Irish Sovereignty ( British Bail Out??)

ntpm

We are arguing about the IMF coming in and Bailing Out our Banks etc.

Latest news says the British Government may help the Irish Government with Bail Out.:eek:
What will they want in return???:rolleyes:

What happens to Irish Sovereignty if the British Government are involved!!!!!

Inquitus

ntpm wrote: »

Latest news says the British Government may help the Irish Government with Bail Out.:eek:
What will they want in return???:rolleyes:

Us to take back the 6 counties :P

Dirk Gently

ntpm wrote: »

What will they want in return???:rolleyes:

To protect their own exports (to us) and a nice percentage on the loan.
All this "help" the Irish government business is really just people helping themselves and saddling the Irish tax payer with debt. I wouldn't get too worked up about accepting "handouts" and our pride being hurt etc. We pay for thee "bailouts" with interest and protect other economies in the process.

dan_d

Haven't a notion!!! Seems like a very strange suggestion.....I can imagine the reaction there would be in both countries if the money was offered...:eek:

Dannyboy83

If an alcoholic owes you 10k and just became homeless, chances are you'll probably give him a bed to sleep in, if the alternative means he'll die.

Chances you'd see your money again are rather slim otherwise.

The British are more exposed to us than the Germans.

silverharp

The last time the British government tried to help Ireland was when Dev was burning the country to the ground in the 1920's. Funny that they are on hand again now that FF are at it again. :pac:

flutered

is there not quite a lot of sterling invested in the banks, they are helping to protect their own.

galway2007

ntpm wrote: »

We are arguing about the IMF coming in and Bailing Out our Banks etc.

Latest news says the British Government may help the Irish Government with Bail Out.:eek:
What will they want in return???:rolleyes:

What happens to Irish Sovereignty if the British Government are involved!!!!!

They will want the end of the low corporation tax
They are sick of company moving the headquarters from the UK to Ireland

Amhran Nua

ntpm wrote: »

What happens to Irish Sovereignty if the British Government are involved!!!!!

Ireland is a country, not a company.

That is all.

SkepticOne

flutered wrote: »

is there not quite a lot of sterling invested in the banks, they are helping to protect their own.

The British post office's banking service is run by, oh dear, Bank of Ireland.

All those pensioners with post office accounts. All those pensioners with votes.

Tabnabs

Bail out-schmail out, this is not free money! This is an extremely expensive loan. We are not getting free B&B as another poster said.

From the BBC website

The arguments in favour of this are not hard to understand. David Cameron's favourite fact on his recent trips to India and China is that Britain does more trade with Ireland than with the so-called BRIC (that's Brazil, Russia and the two he visited) countries.

Add to that the fact that British banks are heavily exposed to Ireland and the economy of Northern Ireland is heavily influenced by that in the South and you can see why ministers are so concerned.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/nickrobinson/2010/11/irish_stew.html

They are taking their slice of the cake and shoring up their exposure at the same time.

dan_d

Definitely not, I'd imagine this would come with many, many strings attached.

Contributors or not, I wonder why Britain feels it has the right to single-handedly offer to bail us out, and what makes them feel we'd accept it...
Given that they're not even in the euro. I know the Germans are massive contributors to the ECB, but it's not like Angela Merkel is turning around to us with an open checkbook and saying "how much do you need?" by herself. Regardless of how closely intertwined Britain and Ireland are it's a bizarre offer. To be honest, I think the EU should politely tell them to get lost - Ireland is a Eurozone country, and answerable to the EU, and no other country is individually offering their aid, so why should Britain? The EU and the IMF are involved in this, and I'd say that's more than enough people to be involved.

I know that sounds bitter on my part, but it genuinely isn't. I just think it's an odd offer to make, no matter how exposed they are to us.

maxwell smart

It does not matter who bails us out. Whatever source we get it from has money from England. They have a 4.5% stake in the IMF so regardless of the EU or the IMF some of it comes from England.
It's the ultimate irony for Finna Fail.

Bob_Latchford

Could set up a bitting war for low rates. Britain, IMF & ECB.

If they want to keep AIB/BOI afloat to, Irish could sell them some equity in them as a sweetener

Tora Bora

:D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1maOiysZe-4

snow ghost

ntpm wrote: »

We are arguing about the IMF coming in and Bailing Out our Banks etc.

Latest news says the British Government may help the Irish Government with Bail Out.:eek:
What will they want in return???:rolleyes:

What happens to Irish Sovereignty if the British Government are involved!!!!!

The country will have to change its name to Terry Wogan Land with Sir Geldof as the Lord of Ireland.

LordSutch

dan_d wrote: »

Contributors or not, I wonder why Britain feels it has the right to single-handedly offer to bail us out, and what makes them feel we'd accept it...

I know that sounds bitter on my part, but it genuinely isn't. I just think it's an odd offer to make, no matter how exposed they are to us.

They are very exposed to us economically, our economies are inextricably linked as our our banking sectors, two islands off the coast of Europe connected in many ways > hence the need for Britain to keep Ireland afloat if they see fit, otherwise the contagen could spread not only to other mainland european countries, but it could spread to Britain too!

ntpm

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Ireland is a country, not a company.

That is all.

I remember the term UK PLC INC.... back in the 80's and early 90's when they were selling off their ASSEST'S...like British Telecom, Electricity Companies. etc..:rolleyes:

Are we not doing the same thing here???:(
What about our off sea oil, Telecom, etc.

jmayo

ntpm wrote: »

We are arguing about the IMF coming in and Bailing Out our Banks etc.

Latest news says the British Government may help the Irish Government with Bail Out.:eek:
What will they want in return???:rolleyes:

What happens to Irish Sovereignty if the British Government are involved!!!!!

i find it unbelieveble that people fid it surprising that the British have offered us a bailout.
A bailout is not a gift or a digout as bertie would consider it.
It is a loan with T&Cs.

Also in case anyone hasn't noticed British banks including the one (RBS) owned by the British taxpayers have big exposure to the Irish market.
Thus it is not in there interests to see a total meltdown in Ireland.
Also the health of the republic has knock on affects on Northern Ireland.
Ireland is a massive trading nation with the UK and it doesn't help their exports or their retail chains if we are in total meltdown.

Nothing happens to our soverignty, even with IMF arriving.
We still are a republic, we still have our own elections and our own government, but the plus side for a lot of us is that the government's hands are tied economically, so that they can't make really stupid mistakes and waste lots of our money.
The negative side is that we have to pay back lots of money that most of us never gained any benefit.

The only positive thing about the Brits having to help bail us out is that we can remind every effing sleeveen traitorous ffer come election time how their party, the republican party, left the nation in such a state that we had to get the ould enemy to bail us out.

Remember that election poster, "A lot done, a lot more to do".

Scofflaw

Tora Bora wrote: »

:D http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1maOiysZe-4

Tora Bora, I think you've made it quite flagrantly clear that you can't tell the difference between Politics and AH, or can't be bothered to distinguish before you post.

Either way, banned for a month.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Dannyboy83

Dyflin wrote: »

Bail out-schmail out, this is not free money! This is an extremely expensive loan. We are not getting free B&B as another poster said.

You misunderstood my point.

I wasn't suggesting they were offering a good will gesture; I was suggesting that they are merely facilitating our ability to pay them back.

Dannyboy83

Besides, Britain is on the verge of meltdown herself anyway, even without us collapsing.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/britains-trillion-pound-horror-story/4od#3139408

Euro_Kraut

I'm not sure why the British are getting involved. Its not like they need to or like they are particularly flush at the moment.

The only real motive I can think if is that the UK would like a say in the Terms & Conditions of the bailout - specifically our Corporation Tax. While people talk about Germany and France wanting to get there hands on our MNCs the reality is that the UK are our greatest competitor for American companies. They would love to have Irish Corp Tax raised. Getting involved in the bailout may make bring that a step closer.

Saadyst

Dannyboy83 wrote: »

Besides, Britain is on the verge of meltdown herself anyway, even without us collapsing.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/britains-trillion-pound-horror-story/4od#3139408

I think Britain is farther away from that than might be portrayed in that film (haven't seen it)... from the summary it seems it is primarily focused on national debt; that's just one factor amongst many.

dan_d

I understand all that. I understand why it's not in their interests to see us fail, I understand all the points people have made on my posts. What I'm trying to say is it's a bit odd to see the Brits offering us a bailout off their own bat, as an individual country. How can they ask that of their taxpayers???They've enough problems of their own. France isn't offering Spain a bailout......it's even stranger because they aren't a Eurozone country.Technically they should probably just leave it to the IMF/EU, and hope to God we accept (for their business). If we say no to an EU bailout, there's a fairly definite likelihood we'd say no to a UK bailout. It's just - odd.

That's all.:D

Saadyst

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

I'm not sure why the British are getting involved. Its not like they need to or like they are particularly flush at the moment.

The only real motive I can think if is that the UK would like a say in the Terms & Conditions of the bailout - specifically our Corporation Tax. While people talk about Germany and France wanting to get there hands on our MNCs the reality is that the UK are our greatest competitor for American companies. They would love to have Irish Corp Tax raised. Getting involved in the bailout may make bring that a step closer.

I'd suspect that making sure the UK can get back the 200+ billion at some point is a big enough reason - on an aside, people are talking a lot about the corporation tax here - how much does the corporation tax actually bring in to Ireland? How much % of the GDP is from MNCs?

Saadyst

dan_d wrote: »

I understand all that. I understand why it's not in their interests to see us fail, I understand all the points people have made on my posts. What I'm trying to say is it's a bit odd to see the Brits offering us a bailout off their own bat, as an individual country. How can they ask that of their taxpayers???They've enough problems of their own. France isn't offering Spain a bailout......it's even stranger because they aren't a Eurozone country.Technically they should probably just leave it to the IMF/EU, and hope to God we accept (for their business). If we say no to an EU bailout, there's a fairly definite likelihood we'd say no to a UK bailout. It's just - odd.

That's all.:D

I don't think it's odd - bear in mind that there's not been any terms or conditions bought to light. It could quite simply be: "look mr. cowen, if the IMF/EU bailout is too harsh, come talk to us, and we can try to do better".

There's no indication (and would make NO sense) for them to offer a worse deal for Ireland.

I don't think the fact that they're not an eurozone country has anything to do with it. Huge trading partner and sheer proximity probably has a lot more to do with it. There's a lot of knock-on effects from Ireland if it has to go down the pan.

fifth

They'll be after our low corporation tax then.

The Sparrow

If it was a straight choice in taking a loan from the EU/ IMF and the UK... I'd take the UK option. Obviously UK would also be looking for a return on the loan, but better the devil that you know and all that.

It is in the interests of the IMF/ EU to make sure that our debt crisis doesn't contaminate the rest of the EU even if that means we do worse. Whereas it is in the interests of the UK for us to do well as we are one of their biggest trading partners and they have huge interests here.

Not sure I ever thought I would see myself saying this, but the UK would be a much better option than the EU/ IMF.

Dirk Gently

The only real motive I can think if is that the UK would like a say in the Terms & Conditions of the bailout - specifically our Corporation Tax.

Tbh we should be naming the T&C at this stage seen as how everyone is trying to force Irish citizens into taking on more debt. You know the old saying, if Ireland owes bills its Irelands problem, but if Ireland owes Europes bills then its europes problem. :pac:

All joking aside though I do hope this is what FF's stuttering is all about, i.e negotiating as good a deal as possible. If exposed euro banks want they're money back then a few years at 5% corpo tax should create enough jobs for us to reduce social welfare and raise enough tax to start paying them back. No point getting locked into owing more debt and purposely stagnating our economy while we do it. Anyone demanding us to raise our corpo tax in the short term should be told where to go. Medium to long term we will of course need to develop our indigenous economy for sustainability.

Dirk Gently

Saadyst wrote: »

- on an aside, people are talking a lot about the corporation tax here - how much does the corporation tax actually bring in to Ireland? How much % of the GDP is from MNCs?

It's more about the jobs they provide tbh. I'm not a fan of the MNC economy as its ultimately not a secure source of either tax or jobs but in the absence of anything else its our only ace card at the moment. If and when we can develop our own home grown industries then I'd be all in favour of raising the corpo tax, but in the mean time MNC's are papering over the cracks in employment figures.

sollar

They may fear that if we truely go belly up then in a few short years we could be working for less than workers in NI. Add this to our 12.5% corp tax and they could see the cost of Northern Ireland increasing for them.

Better to loan us money and try and keep things as is (give or take)

Euro_Kraut

Saadyst wrote: »

I'd suspect that making sure the UK can get back the 200+ billion at some point is a big enough reason

What ever amount is required to keep our banking system afloat the EU/IMF can stump up. IF we require €80billion we will get €80billion. The UK are not offering additional funding, rather they are voluntarily asking to pay a share of the bailout.

There has to be more to this.

Scofflaw

Euro_Kraut wrote: »

What ever amount is required to keep our banking system afloat the EU/IMF can stump up. IF we require €80billion we will get €80billion. The UK are not offering additional funding, rather they are voluntarily asking to pay a share of the bailout.

There has to be more to this.

Good point - I don't think I've ever heard of the IMF saying "sorry, we don't have that much".

Domestic bank pressure? Being seen to be part of Europe? Believing that the Irish are more likely to take a loan from the UK than the EU? Being unwilling to see Ireland drift further towards Europe compared to our old position closer to the UK? Goodwill?

I find it hard to decide which of those very unlikely options is the least unlikely. Probably #4.

puzzled,
Scofflaw

ntpm

clown bag wrote: »

It's more about the jobs they provide tbh. I'm not a fan of the MNC economy as its ultimately not a secure source of either tax or jobs but in the absence of anything else its our only ace card at the moment. If and when we can develop our own home grown industries then I'd be all in favour of raising the corpo tax, but in the mean time MNC's are papering over the cracks in employment figures.

+1 Re MNC.

Many MNC setup here with IDA support ( hand outs) and get tax breaks for 10years and pay little or low coroprate Tax.
Fair enough they give employment but ultimatley pull the plug when things get tough.

Ireland was always the gateway to Europe regarding manufacturing ( especially pharma)..... The lower corporate tax was the main reason....
The UK didn't like this.

Production cost are getting lower in other countries and they will always look at the bottom line when deciding which country to stay in.

mike65

Lest anything think the corporation tax is a "UK thing" the Austrian finance minister has already talked about the rate being jacked up to an acceptable level as a quid pro quo.

Fentdog84

I wish people would stop going on about this sovreignty nonsense. We have been gradually giving that away since we joined the EU in 1973 and in every treaty thereafter. We are a satellite state of the EU now in more or less the same way that Texas is to the US. We are allowed to make our own laws and run our own affairs but if we(or the govt) keep messing up like we have been doing lately they have the right to come in and make sure we start putting our house in order. The only reason Cowen & Lenihan etc are desperate to prevent the IMF coming in is because they know their own salaries & freebies will be cut. They dont give a toss about the man on the street or sovreignty

RockinRolla

dan_d wrote: »

I understand all that. I understand why it's not in their interests to see us fail, I understand all the points people have made on my posts. What I'm trying to say is it's a bit odd to see the Brits offering us a bailout off their own bat, as an individual country. How can they ask that of their taxpayers???They've enough problems of their own. France isn't offering Spain a bailout......it's even stranger because they aren't a Eurozone country.Technically they should probably just leave it to the IMF/EU, and hope to God we accept (for their business). If we say no to an EU bailout, there's a fairly definite likelihood we'd say no to a UK bailout. It's just - odd.

That's all.:D

Have you for one moment not thought of the simple fact that the UK and Ireland are forever linked. We were in bed together for hundreds of years and because of some piece of paper, a piece of cloth and a song now we are all different.....I want whatever youre smoking!

For crying out loud, until 911 you didnt even need a bloody passport to visit ould Maggie. Havent you not heard that the British threw money at us, the roudy and violent Irish, in a bid to shut us up and live like morons thinking we controlled ourselves all along....how simple minded are we...

Scofflaw

Fentdog84 wrote: »

I wish people would stop going on about this sovreignty nonsense. We have been gradually giving that away since we joined the EU in 1973 and in every treaty thereafter. We are a satellite state of the EU now in more or less the same way that Texas is to the US. We are allowed to make our own laws and run our own affairs but if we(or the govt) keep messing up like we have been doing lately they have the right to come in and make sure we start putting our house in order. The only reason Cowen & Lenihan etc are desperate to prevent the IMF coming in is because they know their own salaries & freebies will be cut. They dont give a toss about the man on the street or sovreignty

And I wish people would understand the way the EU works, and that we do make our own laws as well as our own disasters - but, there we go, it appears I can't have what I want either.

regards,
Scofflaw

murphaph

I don't know if it's already been said, but fair play to the United Kingdom. Just as they always give us 12 points in the Eurovision and we give 'em nothing, people on this thread are looking for the very worst in our nearest neighbour (as is so often the case).

The British obviously have a vested interest here. Our banks are heavily intertwined. I bank with UB. The UK post office banking is run by BoI. There's a lot at stake for the UK should Ireland go under, but I genuinely wouldn't write off their goodwill so quickly.

We may need it yet!

And as has been noted already, the ultimate irony for the so-called Republican Party. I realllly hope this all leads to at least one positive outcome: the obliteration of that gombeen party once and for all.

chops1990

IMO it'd be good for Ireland to be "taken over" we evidently can't run our own country, let someone else do it.... meh

shadowninty

chops1990 wrote: »

IMO it'd be good for Ireland to be "taken over" we evidently can't run our own country, let someone else do it.... meh

While the UK has its own vested interests, I think they just feel sorry for us
awwww how sweet

Chist we are all fecked aren't we

Fratton Fred

Saadyst wrote: »

I'd suspect that making sure the UK can get back the 200+ billion at some point is a big enough reason - on an aside, people are talking a lot about the corporation tax here - how much does the corporation tax actually bring in to Ireland? How much % of the GDP is from MNCs?

There is an interesting (but a bit dated) article on finfacts.ie about a couple of Microsoft subsidiaries. I think one is called Round Island One ltd.

It also explains why Ireland has a distorted gdp. Probably explains why Ireland technically came out of recession at the same time as Windows 7 wad launched.

Regards UK offer, I think.there are numerous reasons for it, including the small matter of unemployment figures as well. The UK could probably do without thousands of Irish job seekers bumping up unemployment figures.

Amhran Nua

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The UK could probably do without thousands of Irish job seekers bumping up unemployment figures.

That and the enormous numbers of English people employed in exporting to Ireland, more than the BRIC states put together.

CCCP

Ireland is UK's biggest customer, simple as that.

Also, they kind of owe us one....:P

Daniel S

Wouldn't it be better for Europe to give Fianna Fáil the 80billion just to have a general election?

Inquitus

mtb_kng wrote: »

Wouldn't it be better for Europe to give Fianna Fáil the 80billion just to have a general election?

Just how is a General Election going to improve things? I don't disagree FF have been utterly ruinous to the country, but Labour are in the pockets of the Unions and even less likely to tackle the PS Wage bill and Social Welfare than the incumbents are. I really wish there was a brilliant shining party out there ready to take up the reigns and do whats needed, but the sad reality is that the next Government could be even worse for the country than if FF kept going, and that is a damning inditement of the Irish political class.

Daniel S

Inquitus wrote: »

Just how is a General Election going to improve things? I don't disagree FF have been utterly ruinous to the country, but Labour are in the pockets of the Unions and even less likely to tackle the PS Wage bill and Social Welfare than the incumbents are. I really wish there was a brilliant shining party out there ready to take up the reigns and do whats needed, but the sad reality is that the next Government could be even worse for the country than if FF kept going, and that is a damning inditement of the Irish political class.

Because anyone else is better than FF. Another thing I don't understand is why large corperations don't come together and employ people become a party representing their intrests, eg low corp tax. Surely this would be beneficial to the economy and they could just have a few policies to keep the avarage voter happy. It's kinda like the Republicans in America though, isn't it?

P. Breathnach

mtb_kng wrote: »

Because anyone else is better than FF.

Does your "anyone else" include Sinn Féin and Joe Higgins's Socialist Party and People Before Profit?

I am quite willing to agree that FF have to accept great blame for their role in bringing us to this point but I am not convinced that the main opposition parties could do any better in addressing our problems in the very short term. We might as well let the current government finish their current work: get a four-year plan in place; bring in a budget linked with that plan; make the best possible arrangements for our rescue package. Then we can look for an election sometime early next year, and say goodbye to FF as a party of government for the foreseeable future.

Another thing I don't understand is why large corperations don't come together and employ people become a party representing their intrests, eg low corp tax. Surely this would be beneficial to the economy and they could just have a few policies to keep the avarage voter happy. It's kinda like the Republicans in America though, isn't it?

Lots of reasons why this is not a runner. The one that would persuade me is that I have a fundamental distaste for plutocracy. Many Irish voters would reject such a party because it would probably not keep local hospitals open.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

thebman

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Does your "anyone else" include Sinn Féin and Joe Higgins's Socialist Party and People Before Profit?

I am quite willing to agree that FF have to accept great blame for their role in bringing us to this point but I am not convinced that the main opposition parties could do any better in addressing our problems in the very short term. We might as well let the current government finish their current work: get a four-year plan in place; bring in a budget linked with that plan; make the best possible arrangements for our rescue package. Then we can look for an election sometime early next year, and say goodbye to FF as a party of government for the foreseeable future.

I think this is the only available course of action and explains why FG haven't brought down the government yet. They are there for the taking, it is the timing that matters now.