Taylor Swift - Enemy of Feminism?

Handsome Bob

Please don't move this to C&S mods, it's more about feminism, role models for women and the representation of women in the media rather than about Taylor Swift herself.

IT’S THE biggest story of the year in terms of music sales and no one wants to know: Taylor Swift’s Speak Now album sold more than a million copies in the US alone in the first week of its release at the end of October.

Post-Napster, those sorts of figures weren’t supposed to happen any more. One in every five albums bought in the US that week was Speak Now . Swift outsold the next 62 albums on the chart put together – something else that has never happened before.

The album was only on release for 58 minutes before it topped the iTunes chart. Swift has sold 2½ million individual downloads from the album, which means that each of the 14 tracks are in the singles charts. Factor in her age – she’s only 20 – and the fact she wrote the entire album herself and you’re looking at popular music records that have stood since Elvis, The Beatles and Michael Jackson being shattered all over the place.

And this is no one-off. Her last album, 2008’s Fearless won four Grammys, including the biggest prize in music – the Grammy for album of the year. And she’s getting some decent reviews as well, with two publications not known for their endorsement of mainstream country-pop (Rolling Stone and the New York Times ) both going into superlative speak. The latter noting, rather curiously, that Swift is “a country-pop Jane Austen”.

In Ireland the new album has already gone gold, the last one went a few times platinum and her show at the 02 next March sold out in minutes. A 20-year-old female who writes her own material and
is reshaping the popular music history books – it’s quite something. But for the “male gaze” of the media she’s the wrong sort of female.

Swift can’t be corralled into the nymph/whore boxes. And, gasp, she’s “an enemy of feminism”. In a world gone Gaga, Swift is pilloried
for letting the side down. She’s not “complex”, “damaged” and doesn’t score too highly on the “subversion” index.

“The rush to exalt Swift is, I believe, a desperate attempt to infuse our . . . country . . . with a palatable conservative ideology in the form of a complacent, repressed feminine ideal.

an established/ evolved talent (Beyoncé) or a revolutionary (Lady Gaga). According to her lyrics, she has spent her entire life waiting for phone calls and dreaming about horses and sunsets,” runs one of the many negative online opinions.

Elsewhere, Swift gets compared to Bristol Palin (whatever that’s supposed to imply) and derided for being a “celebuteen”. Her runaway commercial success attributed to “good marketing”.

And where once-concerned parents pored over the lyrics of metal bands or gangsta rappers to find proof of society coming apart at the seams, now their mirror counterparts are poring over Swift’s lyrics to uncover their “hidden meaning”. Yes, Swift’s entire lyrical reach might not extend past “walking in the rain with my boyfriend” but to put her beside Janis Joplin for a compare/ contrast rant seems harsh, to say the least.

The core problem here appears to be that her Dan Brown/JK Rowling-like sales are putting her up into a pretty exalted position in the music world and that she’s just a bit too much of a wide-eyed, know-nothing, uncool ingénue to warrant that elevation. For an Amy or a Gaga that’s all fine – there’s a whiff of cordite there – but for someone who makes
The Jonas Brothers look like Megadeth, it’s just dreadfully untweetable.

But at the business end of the argument you’re looking at a situation where a number of big-name acts are deliberately releasing their albums in the immediate wake of Swift’s Speak Now just so they can take advantage of the footfall in record shops.

She may well be “a feminist nightmare”, but Taylor Swift still a 20-year-old woman who writes all her own material, breaking new ground, raising the bar and leaving the musically correct wringing their hands in anguish.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/theticket/2010/1112/1224283130612.html

I have to say, even as a male, I find Taylor's lyrics quite cringey but all the same, she is an amazing talent. Anyone who can generate that kind of record sales in this day and age deserves to praised rather than ridiculed, even if you don't like her music. I mean I found this bit quite harsh:

“The rush to exalt Swift is, I believe, a desperate attempt to infuse our . . . country . . . with a palatable conservative ideology in the form of a complacent, repressed feminine ideal.

For me this is OTT. How I'd see it is that every female will have different experiences growing up. Indeed, some will of had some bad life experiences and may identify more with the likes of Lady Gaga, Beyonce and Rihanna. But then of course, whether we like it or not, some people just have good upbringings and have thankfully been shielded from the more destructive parts of life so they identify more with Swift. I think that's always been the way the music industry has been, some superstars have a certain demographic of fans, another superstar has an equally large but all the same totally different demographic of fans.

I don't see anything all that damaging about Taylor Swift, and at the risk of sounding like a prude, I'd rather hear a ten year old singing Swift's lyrics rather than Lady Gaga's.:o

So what do y'all think about this? Forgive me if I don't post again in the thread, just wanted to see if I could get an interesting debate going.

coffee_cake

I didn't like her "I'm a pretty princess" video, but other than that I don't know much about her. I don't really care either.
Fair play to her for selling all those records and writing the music herself.
I suppose if she is being conservative, well, it seems to tie in with conservative USA.

LenaClaire

I think she seems like a sweet kid singing about early teenage issues. If I was a parent of a pre-teen or early teen I would rather my kid listened to Taylor Swift than Lady Gaga just because she is not pushing her sexuality.

I think that Lady Gaga and Taylor Swift are rightly targeted toward different age groups.

Xiney

I don't think Taylor Swift is an enemy of feminism any more than Disney movies are.

I grew up watching Cinderella (we ALL did) and I still turned into a feminist so I think these kids growing up with her will probably be ok. It's probably better to dream about prince charming and falling in love and meaningful relationships etc at the age she's aimed at than to dream of being hot and sexy.

LittleBook

Why Taylor Swift Offends Little Monsters, Feminists and Weirdos

Here's the original blog which is quoted in the Irish Times article. Haven't read it all yet ... it's loooong and I personally don't think Taylor Swift is worth reading 3,000 words, never mind writing them. :pac:

It was written 10 months ago as a reaction to Swift's Grammy win and a response to an article about why you shouldn't "hate on Taylor"

Here's (what appears to be) the crux of her argument:

The rush to exalt Swift is (I believe) a desperate attempt to infuse our allegedly apocalypse-bound country with a palatable conservative ideology in the form of a complacent, repressed feminine ideal. It’s working ’cause Swift writes good songs and America is terrified that its children have been scarred by Britney Spears’s psychotic vagina and Miley Cyrus’s obnoxious adolescence.

Rather than choosing an established/evolved talent (Beyoncé) or a revolutionary (Lady Gaga), the Grammys chose someone who, according to her lyrics, has spent her entire life waiting for phone calls and dreaming about horses and sunsets.

Though the debate over her performance skills is a well-beaten horse at this point, her unequivocal worthiness as a role model for girls has been accepted complacently; at least within my limited purview.

Listen up; if I ever get my life together enough to reproduce other life forms, they will not be joining Taylor Nation – they will be brave, creative, inventive, envelope-pushing little monsters who will find a pretty, skinny white blonde girl in a white peasant shirt strolling through nature-themed screensaver-esque fantasylands singing about how “when you’re fifteen and somebody tells you they love you, you’re gonna believe them” not only sappy, but also insulting to their inevitable brilliance.

I don’t want my unborn grandchildren to listen to the story of how Taylor Swift won a Grammy she hadn’t earned. I want them to set pianos on fire.

The main point which I think she's missing (and which Xiney already nailed) is that popular culture is not the most important influence on how children grow up.

Dudess

I'd agree she's so successful because there is a huge market for unabashed blandness, but an enemy of feminism? Bizarre take. And as for Beyoncé and Lady Gaga being a bit cutting-edge... lol.

Nevyn

Who?

Handsome Bob

Thaedydal wrote: »

Who?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EURgbB5J1as

I dare ya to listen. She's also the one that Kanye West infamously interupted at an awards ceremony.

Nervous Wreck

Hold on.... Article is slating Taylor Swift for writing sweet, innocent songs about being a teenager and falling in love and in the same breath, calling Beyoncé an evolved talent' (who is seen bumping, grinding and submitting to the control of her boyfriend in her videos) and calling Lady Gaga 'a revolutionary' for going OTT in trying to be weird (but succeeding in being a díckhead, with admittedly savage songs)? Enemy of feminism my ass. What gives anyone the right to deny a 20 year old girl her innocence? If it borders on naiveté so be it. But to claim that she's doing damage is ludicrous.

baby and crumble

More likely to be Taylor Swift: enemy of my ipod, but enemy of feminism?

People like to listen to stories about pleasant things. Not everyone wants to be achingly cool and cutting edge. Feminism doesn't even have to be achingly cool and cutting edge. I think most people, feminist or no, would quite like someone to treat them nicely- you don't have to be female to be wanted to be treated well.

Sometimes, people like to listen to relaxed music with a nice melody and lyrics that aren't aggressive. For them, there's Taylor Swift. Granted there are other artists who would also fill that niche and perhaps attract less venom, but meh. Fair play to her.

Dudess

Lady Gaga is presented as being all non conformist, when in reality she's as contrived as Justin Bieber. Her songs are that brand of Timbaland-produced/inspired catchy pop that's been around a while now - the only thing "out there" about her is: her clothes can be weird. Woo.
Media commentary is fickle - there was a time when Beyoncé was getting castigated for being too much about the booty.

jokettle

I really wish I could contribute something meaningful to this topic, but my brain hasn't stop giggling since it read the phrase "Britney Spears’s psychotic vagina".

As soon as maturity is restored, I'll try to construct a relevant viewpoint.

krudler

Dudess wrote: »

Lady Gaga is presented as being all non conformist, when in reality she's as contrived as Justin Bieber. Her songs are that brand of Timbaland-produced/inspired catchy pop that's been around a while now - the only thing "out there" about her is: her clothes can be weird. Woo.
Media commentary is fickle - there was a time when Beyoncé was getting castigated for being too much about the booty.

Gaga is sooooooo overrated its not even funny, overproduced (admittedly catchy) tunes and a persona bordering somewhere between Madonna and Marilyn Manson (both of whom did it better) do not a revolutionary make.

minidazzler

I admit, begrudgingly, I have a soft spot for Taylor Swift, and her music, as bland and unimaginative as it is, I do listen to is. But to call her an enemy of feminism? I don't get what they mean!

I think this is just people being generally cnutish about some nice girls success. I am much happier when my sister listens to Taylor Swift than when she listens to Lady (wanna take a ride on my disco stick) Gaga, or Rhianna (Come on rude boy, can you get it up).

I am not one to complain about over-sexualisation, but when people complain about the most innocent of songs, that person is immediately relegated to being a moron in my book.

Black Swan

Taylor Swift is no Jonathan Swift, but to propose she's a threat to feminism with her songs informed by a teenage life is a meal served cold.

seenitall

She is as much an enemy of feminism as Dolly Parton is. No more, no less. She is on her way to being an American institution. :pac:

Hats off!

amacachi

Nervous Wreck wrote: »

Hold on.... Article is slating Taylor Swift for writing sweet, innocent songs about being a teenager and falling in love and in the same breath, calling Beyoncé an evolved talent' (who is seen bumping, grinding and submitting to the control of her boyfriend in her videos) and calling Lady Gaga 'a revolutionary' for going OTT in trying to be weird (but succeeding in being a díckhead, with admittedly savage songs)? Enemy of feminism my ass. What gives anyone the right to deny a 20 year old girl her innocence? If it borders on naiveté so be it. But to claim that she's doing damage is ludicrous.

Don't forget how wonderfully "manish" her fella is, first he sings about not letting no "hoe" telling him what to do and then won't get pictured with models because it annoyed Beyonce.

Thaedydal wrote: »

Who?

Odd, I would have thought someone with a postcount as high as yours would've come across the Kanye interrupting Taylor Swift meme at some point.


TBH that article and to some extent this thread (not complaining about others, sure I'm posting myself) sums up what gets on my nerves about the media and different people's response to women in the media. Some will vilify a woman who is "over-sexual", some will vilify one who is conservative and likes what she likes even if it does seem childish to a lot of people, etc. etc. I just don't see what "feminism" has to do with it, different women are different, much as different humans are different. Wait, maybe women are actually people and vary a lot in personality and what they like!
I dunno, I just don't see why there seems to be a need to analyse people so much about whether particular women are "feminists" or not.

KylieWyley

you've a lot more to worry about with the likes of Snoop Dog and 50 cent objectifying women in all their lyrics...

50 cents twitter page is filled with amazing comments that never cease to amaze me. (though, i must confess, he can be quite funny sometimes!)

you know you ladies gonna have to share me .im enough to go around just need a 10 min break in a redbull .lol

life is short so we should have sex on the frist date.listen baby you are not a slut just sexually delinquent.

http://twitter.com/#!/50CENT

Giselle

So she's young, pretty, has made a fortune on the back of her self-penned music, doesn't wear a thong on stage or sing about overtly sexual themes and has no 'issues' to sing about, so sticks to the bland nice stuff that has a huge market. She's incredibly sucessful and in essence, self made.

How does this make her an enemy of femimism? She might be conservative but surely she's a better role model for young teen girls than meat-dress Gaga?

I predict she'll reinvent herself when the public start losing interest, and start getting a lot more risque. She can only be an ingenue for so long.

Ask Britney.

Nevyn

amacachi wrote: »

Odd, I would have thought someone with a postcount as high as yours would've come across the Kanye interrupting Taylor Swift meme at some point.

I'd no idea who Kanye west until that meme and I didn't' know it was her that he interrupted, mainstream American music gossip and celebs has no interest to me.

spinandscribble

She's a success without using drama/sex/scandal/other people writing her songs. I dare say taking her clothes off or singing about cocks would have gotten her more attention or "success".


Do women really need to be like Gaga to be feminists? jesus....

Holybejaysus

spinandscribble wrote: »

She's a success without using drama/sex/scandal/other people writing her songs. I dare say taking her clothes off or singing about cocks would have gotten her more attention or "success".


Do women really need to be like Gaga to be feminists? jesus....

I would beg to differ. Don't try telling me that MTV thing with Kayne wasn't staged. Wasn't it just suuuper the way herself and Beyonce ended up on stage wearing matching dresses afterwards? Methinks both management parties hatched a little plan beforehand....
And again this year, when she managed to milk it by writing a song about the whole affair? How...sincere.
Pah. I'm just waiting for the sex tape to be 'leaked'.
Mainstream music lost any artistic credibility during the 80's. The whole scene is now as stage managed and scripted as your average Wrestlemania bout.

Dudess

It'll be interesting to see if she becomes sexified - Nelly Furtado went down that route after doing well out of her more folksy, hippy approach.

Tbh, I prefer don't-give-a-sh1t Britney to Britney early in her career when she was "Tee hee hee, I'm really innocent and cutesy and a christian and virgin yadda yadda" yet being extremely sexualised in her videos. Beyoncé and the one out of the Pussycat Dolls can be a bit like that too - especially the christian thing. Talk about mixed messages!

Handsome Bob

I suppose it just goes to show you how much people are willing to forget about their own personal beliefs in exchange for fame.

Dudess

amacachi wrote: »

TBH that article and to some extent this thread (not complaining about others, sure I'm posting myself) sums up what gets on my nerves about the media and different people's response to women in the media. Some will vilify a woman who is "over-sexual", some will vilify one who is conservative and likes what she likes even if it does seem childish to a lot of people, etc. etc. I just don't see what "feminism" has to do with it, different women are different, much as different humans are different. Wait, maybe women are actually people and vary a lot in personality and what they like!
I dunno, I just don't see why there seems to be a need to analyse people so much about whether particular women are "feminists" or not.

Spot-on.

spinandscribble

Holybejaysus wrote: »

I would beg to differ. Don't try telling me that MTV thing with Kayne wasn't staged. Wasn't it just suuuper the way herself and Beyonce ended up on stage wearing matching dresses afterwards? Methinks both management parties hatched a little plan beforehand....
And again this year, when she managed to milk it by writing a song about the whole affair? How...sincere.
Pah. I'm just waiting for the sex tape to be 'leaked'.
Mainstream music lost any artistic credibility during the 80's. The whole scene is now as stage managed and scripted as your average Wrestlemania bout.

Didn't know she wrote a song about it as I don't really know her music. I don't think shes a great artist or anything but i think its pretty lame to pick her out for attention like that article does because she's not "edgy pop" ergo not feminist, not that Gaga is either.

Its like complaining those high school musical kids aren't fighting the "man". They're kids aimed at entertaining kids, them and Swift. Until Swift and them say they're doing differently noone should hold them to such standards. I don't think Swift needs to be any different then she is. I don't know her and her songs that well but she sounds like she sings the type of stuff that young teens like and isn't urging them to grow up to soon. She might just be a puppet for all I know but she seems harmless.

Dudess

Actually Lady GaGa comes across as way more contrived than Taylor Swift, the latter just being a girl who writes and sings songs - nothing more to it, no gimmicks. GaGa is a walking gimmick.

spinandscribble

Dudess wrote: »

It'll be interesting to see if she becomes sexified - Nelly Furtado went down that route after doing well out of her more folksy, hippy approach.

Tbh, I prefer don't-give-a-sh1t Britney to Britney early in her career when she was "Tee hee hee, I'm really innocent and cutesy and a christian and virgin yadda yadda" yet being extremely sexualised in her videos. Beyoncé and the one out of the Pussycat Dolls can be a bit like that too - especially the christian thing. Talk about mixed messages!

Don't forget Avril "i'm punk and I wanna be a role model and not wear nothing or be stupid" who then became "hey hey look at me with my push up bra and how my new song recommends you dump your gf for me". :rolleyes: Don't get me wrong I'm sure she grew up and changed but she was touted around early on as a good rolemodel. People need to stop expecting famous people to teach their kids.

Grindylow

AAAAAAAAH! I love her!

/leaves....

spinandscribble

Dudess wrote: »

Actually Lady GaGa comes across as way more contrived than Taylor Swift, the latter just being a girl who writes and sings songs - nothing more to it, no gimmicks. GaGa is a walking gimmick.

Thats why I think I didn't mind the sound of this Swift girl. Yeah she's pretty simple and at the moment Pop seems very over the top. I didn't know there was still people like her in pop (I'm not a big music person:o couldn't name more then maybe 3 in the top 30). I guess thats why shes doing well.

GaGa has definitely created something and its in essence contrived, conceptual but at least her videos are interesting thats the best I can say for her.

Dudess

Haha - yeah, Avril was all anti sexy, then became... sexy.

But you're right: it's not fair to expect very young girls who become famous to not change as they get older, and I'm all for healthy sexual expression, but I ****ing hate when sex/sexuality is used as a cynical gimmick or at the expense of compromising aspects of the singer's personality. Katy Perry's I Kissed A Girl is, I think, a good example: "Lesbianism is great, kids... as long as it's solely within the context of being sexy for the boys."
And those Pussycat Doll ones with their "Men are scum... but I must ensure I dress sexily at all times, yet god help any man who comes near me" sh1te...

But if Taylor discovers her inner sex goddess a few years from now and wants to unleash it, more power to the lass.