Vince and his treatment of "other" talent

gimmick

Just from Jays post in the questions thread

jaykhunter wrote: »

I should mention that Lawler used to cut vicious, scathing promos on Vince's child-friendly WWF whilst he was in the USWA. He was a serious heel. When USWA was turned into basically a feeder-system for the WWF in the early-mid 90s, Lawler was brought in to the WWF, and as punishment, was given a comedy persona and storylines (eg with midgets - dink, wink, pink; having to suck his own smelly toe etc)

How many others did Vince bury when they came to work for him? The most obvious I can think of is Dusty Rhodes when he came in as polka dot wearing moron with a 50+ year old valet.

We all know Vince loves his own creations, so who else was seemingly deliberatly hamstrung from the get go?

Another that springs to mind is Scott Steiner. he was lumped in a god awful feud with HHH - a feud he never recovered from really. Had he been turned heel soon after his arrival I think they could have had a good/great thing on their hands.

Lord TSC

The most recent examples are probably Kaval and, to a mixed extent, Danielson. Both have been kind of pushed but also been given losing streaks, and the fact they are "internet indy favorites" is constantly brought up against them.

gimmick

Disgreee on both counts. Danielson has been dealt with perfectly I think. Apart from his entrance music. And his new "tan".

Both were not established names by any means outside the indies. I think there is a slow build with Kaval as well.

Lord TSC

Danielson is doing ok now. In fact, I'd say his firing was the best thing that ever happened to him.

On NXT though, he was constantly buried both inside the ring and by Cole on commentary. He was losing left right and center and he was constantly billed as "King of the Indies" which in modern days is as close as you'll get to being an "outside" guy. Sure, the show was by and large built around him, but it was often being built around the fact that he was a non-WWE guy who a lot of people had been eager to see, and Vince seemingly wanted to prove those who thought he was great wrong...

gimmick

In that regard with Danielson I would certainly say it was a case of "any publicity is good publicity". Apart from Barrett, he is the only to make any sort of impact on the main roster. Sure Cole (continues to) ridicule him, but in myu mind that is what kept him in peoples minds.

When I say burial, I will use the Dusty example again. He was a former NWA champion and booker. He was an established name before going to WWF, someone who could have done decent business, but instead he was made a mockery of.

I guess we could say that Christian is sort of an example as well. He fecked off to TNA, and when he came back, he was pretty much bottom of the ladder. This was after he was world champ in the other organisation.

Chris Harris and Monty Brown, despite being big enough names in TNA both floundered something rotten in WWE.

Penn

I'd hardly say Christian came back to being bottom of the ladder. He became ECW champion and had a very long reign. Sure, the title meant very little, but he wasn't given a silly gimmick or storyline. He may have been world champ in TNA, but with the main eventers that WWE already had, there was never going to be room for Christian to suddenly burst in and compete for one of the titles.

savemejebus

Chris Harris okay, but that was partly his own fault. Did you see the state of him in ECW???

Monty Brown, i'd disagree with. He was getting over but then, from what i've read, he had to leave to attend to personal issues.

As for Dusty Rhodes in WWE, he did suffer from Vinces treatment but he also suffered from being more out of shape than Bobby Heenan in a federation full of roided and sculpted young dudes. His gimmick was well stale and the only drawing he did was thanks to the 50+ year old valet and the million dollar man imo.

Bounty Hunter

along these lines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktxW0vidElE

flahavaj

At least half the roster in 1980's WWF was grossly mis-used.

The likes of the Bushwhackers were renowned for their hardcore brawling style before they went to WWF and became comedy stooges, Jim Duggan was the top face in Mid South and another brilliant brawler before he became a 2 by 4 wielding special needs looklike, Dusty has already been mentioned, Terry Gordy, the best big man to ever wrestle did a few weeks under a mask as The Executioner, Steve Williams' mid 90's WWE run was a joke compared to hopw good he was and how sh*t the roster was at the time, they never made as big a deal of Arn and Tully as they should have either back in the day.

The right answer really is pretty mnuch anyone Vince didn't create himself.

jaykhunter

I'll have a think about who Vince brought in and buried and get back to ya. Expect most of the names coming from 2001!

With Scott Steiner, I don't blame Vince at all, Steiner had two god-awful matches with a guy who never does (HHH) and that was Steiner's fault. Have you seen those matches? @ the RR all he does is 15 belly to bellies, with a slow recovery, botching his way through the match! It really killed the crowd! HHH was quaking in his boots letting Steiner 'perform' his moveset, I'm sure he was terrified he'd break his neck in the ring with him.

I do love Scott Steiner but his wrestling in the WWE was awful. Did have some wonderful promos though

gimmick

^ That could have been more easily hidden as a heel.

jaykhunter

I'm sure he wasn't cheap, easiest way to hide him is to just have him cut promos or maybe have him tag (although Test isn't exactly the carrying type)

I'm genuinely shocked (and happy to see) that TNA actually booked him more effectively. His last few years in TNA were really entertaining.

Cactus Colm

savemejebus wrote: »

Chris Harris okay, but that was partly his own fault. Did you see the state of him in ECW???

Monty Brown, i'd disagree with. He was getting over but then, from what i've read, he had to leave to attend to personal issues.

Have to agree ... Marcus CorVon was used at a fairly decent level in ECW, if he hadn't had to leave for family reasons I'm sure would have done well enough.

Chris Harris wasn't exactly in the best state when he started in ECW ... although the Braden Walker name is pretty awful.

jaykhunter

"Braden Walker" was never going to get over, but Harris did his best not to get over. Besides an awful singlet and physique, he wrestled really bad and showed no personality. It feels like someone/thing got into his head whenever he signed with WWE and couldn't get it together.

Machismo Fan

Gail Kim. She came in off the back of the best series in mainstream womens wrestling and had proven that she could legitimately connect with the audience on a deeper level than most women and then they proceeded to do absolutely nothing with her.

jaykhunter wrote: »

"Braden Walker" was never going to get over, but Harris did his best not to get over. Besides an awful singlet and physique, he wrestled really bad and showed no personality. It feels like someone/thing got into his head whenever he signed with WWE and couldn't get it together.

It's not like he was given much motivation - fair enough he should've never have shown up in the condition he was in but WWE clearly put zero thought into him. Shame because he should have been a star.

jaykhunter

That's true, but he should've tried to show some initiative -- look at Zack Ryder! There's no way WWE creative put any thought into this mid-card jobber. I think all of his catch-phrases are his own work.

Machismo Fan

jaykhunter wrote: »

That's true, but he should've tried to show some initiative -- look at Zack Ryder! There's no way WWE creative put any thought into this mid-card jobber. I think all of his catch-phrases are his own work.

It's not as if he's a huge success story though. He pops up on Raw every so often for a comedy skit or to job to somebody and then is sent back to Superstars.

flahavaj

Machismo Fan wrote: »

It's not as if he's a huge success story though. He pops up on Raw every so often for a comedy skit or to job to somebody and then is sent back to Superstars.

He held down a job when everyone, myself included thought he'd get the door withing weeks though, which is more than can be said for that fat fella in the leotard that turned up from TNA.:pac:

gimmick

Just as well you didn't bet anyone about then eh Flavers?

Rjd2

Machismo Fan wrote: »

Gail Kim. She came in off the back of the best series in mainstream womens wrestling and had proven that she could legitimately connect with the audience on a deeper level than most women and then they proceeded to do absolutely nothing with her.

Gail turned up was mildly pushed couldn't get over sadly. Her singles matches haven't exactly been classics either, her matches with Mickie and Jillian were abysmal.

Machismo Fan

Rjd2 wrote: »

Gail turned up was mildly pushed couldn't get over sadly. Her singles matches haven't exactly been classics either, her matches with Mickie and Jillian were abysmal.

Mildly pushed? She only had one night where she had focus on her then immediately fell into the background and hasn't seen anything remotely resembling a push since. I don't blame her for not being able to reach the standard she set in TNA, WWE never gave her a chance.

jaykhunter

The point being that Harris did absolutely nothing on-screen to warrant keeping a job, unlike Ryder, who's obviously trying his best.

If Gail can get hugely over in TNA, it should be a cinch in WWE. WWE shoulder all of the blame. Gail is barely on TV and is basically benched, just making up the numbers as just another Diva. I must've blinked and missed that 'light push'!! And Mickie and Jillian are hardly great wrestlers....Gail is the most talented woman on WWE's roster. I can't blame her for taking the money, but WWE are wasting $300,000 per year 'hurting' TNA.

If Gail has had 10 minute matches with McCool or Natalia, or even Beth Phoenix, that'd be another story....

Lord TSC

All I remember from Kim's return was that she had a few matches where she botched, and I ended up thinking how easy it can be to make someone look phenomenal on a taped and edited show.

Regardless though, her real problem lies in Vince's treatment of the Divas division, not his treatment of talent from other companies.

flahavaj

gimmick wrote: »

Just as well you didn't bet anyone about then eh Flavers?

I've been waiting to hear back from the chap I bet with but he's never about anymore....

Machismo Fan

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

All I remember from Kim's return was that she had a few matches where she botched, and I ended up thinking how easy it can be to make someone look phenomenal on a taped and edited show.

Well considering her best matches were on live PPV, that's not really the case.

Lord TSC

Well, I suppose it would probably help then if I didn't view divas matches as inconsequental toilet breaks during PPVs <_<

Or if could be bothered to watch TNA at all >_>

Rjd2

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

All I remember from Kim's return was that she had a few matches where she botched, and I ended up thinking how easy it can be to make someone look phenomenal on a taped and edited show.

Regardless though, her real problem lies in Vince's treatment of the Divas division, not his treatment of talent from other companies.

Yeah she was very sloppy in her first few months, plus she has never ever been over EVER!

Jayk, Mickie and Jillian aren't exactly great workers but they are mildly competent so Gail should have been able to do something with them. She has to take some of the blame for been the jobber that she is.

GTR63

Its funny that some seem to think Christian winning the ecw title was a push since he lost that belt bar MITB matches has he had a ppv match I doubt it. Its a pity for Gail Kim that wwe didn't hire Kong she'd get more of a reaction than all of wwe's divas & the majority of male talent & is a better wrestler than them too.As for Danielson & Low-ki wwe did a bad job pushing them. Lawler insulted face talent a decade ago yeah but he never said they're Boring & Bland thats just pure counter productive.

Machismo Fan

Rjd2 wrote: »

Yeah she was very sloppy in her first few months, plus she has never ever been over EVER!

Jayk, Mickie and Jillian aren't exactly great workers but they are mildly competent so Gail should have been able to do something with them. She has to take some of the blame for been the jobber that she is.

That's just ridiculous. She proved beyond all doubt in TNA that she's a star. She managed to establish a legitimate emotional connection with the fans that went further than people reacting purely based on her looks. Her feud with Awesome Kong was brilliant by any standard (in fact Kong beating Kim for the KO title is the second most viewed video that TNA has uploaded on YouTube), not just when compared to other womens matches and the decline in the Knockouts division after she left is not a coincidence. WWE grossly misused her and she became just another interchangeable Diva as a result despite her being capable of so much more - I don't blame her for not being motivated - it's the Shelton Benjamin syndrome all over again.

Rjd2

Machismo Fan wrote: »

That's just ridiculous. She proved beyond all doubt in TNA that she's a star. She managed to establish a legitimate emotional connection with the fans that went further than people reacting purely based on her looks. Her feud with Awesome Kong was brilliant by any standard (in fact Kong beating Kim for the KO title is the second most viewed video that TNA has uploaded on YouTube), not just when compared to other womens matches and the decline in the Knockouts division after she left is not a coincidence. WWE grossly misused her and she became just another interchangeable Diva as a result despite her being capable of so much more - I don't blame her for not being motivated - it's the Shelton Benjamin syndrome all over again.

Nobody is denying her TNA work isn't good but that is in the past and irrelevant when discussing her WWE career.
I admit she has been cursed with having to work with some rubbish in the diva's division but she has also had matches with the likes of Michelle and Mickie who while no Trish Stratus's are passable in the ring, nothing has been memorable at all.

That's why Christian has done well since his return, he had to work with a lot of lads who were very green on ECW and he made them look like stars, thus he got a nice push.


Creative deserve a lot of criticism for Gail's WWE term but she should accept a little of the blame for her current jobber status.

jaykhunter

"2008" is not in the past and irrelevant when discussing her WWE career. I don't think doing the job in 3 minutes on TV counts as her getting a chance to shine and shouldn't be judged on that. I'd also suggest that those matches were scripted move for move. Given her excellent performances on TNA, regularly being in the highest segment on iMPACT, not to mention her and Kong's match in 2008 that main-evented iMPACT (which must be a first for a women's match); her talent should be beyond reproach.

Unless she has a few stinkers on PPV with established talent (McCool/Natalia) she should be given the benefit of the doubt. Just because someone hasn't had a decent match doesn't mean they're not capable -- especially when they've shown excellency beforehand.

It's like saying "Punk is crap on the mic" just because he hasn't cut a promo in 6 months.

Rjd2

So basically for the rest of her WWE tenure she should be given a free pass for her underwhelming run because she had some awesome matches with Kong back in the day?

They tried to push her (well as much they try to push divas not named Laycool) in a feud with Michelle when she returned. She didn't get over. They tried to push her in a feud with Mickie and Maryse in the last year or so, she didn't get over. She didn't have any memorable matches with any of them.
(She did have some awesome botches though!)


You can check her abortion of a match with Mickie on Youtube as well.

But heh it totally the other girl's fault, and creative because to expect someone as good as Gail to elevate someone these days is asking to much after her matches with Kong all those years ago.

Christian stepped his game up hugely when he returned to TNA and Gail didn't didn't. One got the push the other didn't. You can't live on your reputation forever in the WWE.

jaykhunter

I'm saying until she has a chance to actually shine on PPV you can't decree that she's somehow lost her talent or never had it. Her success in the trough that is TNA should speak huge volumes. I'll admit that her matches since her WWE return have been lacklustre but having a few short, throwaway, scripted matches on WWE TV is not a viable measure of her talent. It's not like she can go into business for herself 'Teddy Hart style' on some episode of Raw because she doesn't like the role she has!

Saying that WWE tried to push Gail Kim is just an absolute lie. She hasn't had any kind of storyline or showcase match in WWE. She's basically a background figure. Case in point, she's been in WWE for about 18 months now but is yet to have a singles match on PPV. Your and my definition of 'feud' must vary wildly. WWE pulled the plug on any kind of exposure pretty instantly. WWE rehired her simply to hurt TNA's KO division (which was successful) and have never had any actual plans to use her.

Heh, actually that's quite analogous to Joey Styles

Rjd2

jaykhunter wrote: »

I'm saying until she has a chance to actually shine on PPV you can't decree that she's somehow lost her talent or never had it. Her success in the trough that is TNA should speak huge volumes. I'll admit that her matches since her WWE return have been lacklustre but having a few short, throwaway, scripted matches on WWE TV is not a viable measure of her talent. It's not like she can go into business for herself 'Teddy Hart style' on some episode of Raw because she doesn't like the role she has!

Saying that WWE tried to push Gail Kim is just an absolute lie. She hasn't had any kind of storyline or showcase match in WWE. She's basically a background figure. Case in point, she's been in WWE for about 18 months now but is yet to have a singles match on PPV. Your and my definition of 'feud' must vary wildly. WWE pulled the plug on any kind of exposure pretty instantly. WWE rehired her simply to hurt TNA's KO division (which was successful) and have never had any actual plans to use her.

Heh, actually that's quite analogous to Joey Styles

They tried this year with the Maryse angle where she spoke in French to her insulting her. They actually had a match scheduled for the PPV, but it ended up as a tag match with Laycool involved, as obviously the PPV would have flopped without Michelle.

They done the singles match on the Raw after if I recall correctly, it wasn't very good and I think its safe to say it would have been rubbish if done on the PPV. :pac:

Not saying she is rubbish but she deserves a teeny bit of criticism for all her matches sucking. Obviously she was hindered by the people she worked with, and the time and all that, but good matches have happened with rubbish people the years.

Oh and then this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUvvR7eHi38&feature=related


Their is much worse botches from her over the years as well, all with Jillian as well. :eek:
And no folks its not all Jillian's fault either. :pac:

jaykhunter

I'll agree that we haven't seen anything special in her matches since she's returned to WWE. I don't blame her, we'll have to agree to disagree :pac: That youtube match, you realise Kim got hurt right before the finish? The rest of the match she was incredibly smooth; it was James that can barely take an arm-drag or do a cartwheel!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDetdyxP8AE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pI7tzoHoVhs

GTR63

I can't believe people are questioning Gail Kims talent.Her matches with Kong,3 of which were better than ANYTHING that wwe ever did with Divas.I don't care if it was Trish,Lita,Molly Holly whoever.Those matches vs Kong were the only really top notch womens matches from mainstream North America that i've seen.You'd swear that Maryse,Laycool & the Divas were Kurt Angle the way yee say she had a bad match with Maryse.

D-FENS

For years going back to the 90’s I thought that Vince treated established names from other promotions this way – Vadar, Ron Simmons, Tazz – all former world champions / main eventers who probably made a decent wage with WWE but never achieved the same heights.

Also looked like he had it in for guys who left him and then came back, most notably Steamboat whose 2nd run in the early 90’s was tragic to watch for anyone who remembers him from his time with WWF in the 80’s, and to a

But then again look at guys like Goldberg, Austin, Sid, Rey, Benoit, Eddie, Y2J, RVD, The Dudleys and the LOD, all known names from other promotions who hit the big time with WWF.
And as Sting says in that link, same with Booker, eventually.

Even Foley, who granted had started out with WWF but as a jobber, and for the start of his 90’s WWF career was under a mask, was still a known WCW guy. Nash too, may not have been known as Diesel or even Kevin Nash, but he was a WCW guy and came to WWF and won the world title/main evented WM.

I think we can conspiracy theory all we want, and in some cases be right, but basically if you have sometime Vince can use talent wise (Or in Nash’s case just plain luck) that he’ll use you right

Bounty Hunter

I would think in almost every case if Vince signs you he intends to use you properly but he will never promote you as better than or at the level of what is already there if you are new to the WWE audience atleast not at the top of the card. However if you impress/stick around in the role you are given there could be more down the line for you. For example Booker as Sting mentioned wasnt exactley shown on the same level as the top WWE guys when he first arrived but eventually worked out a good main event position for himself as apposed to say Steiner who also didnt get an ideal start but if he was able to perform to the standard of a main eventer thats where he could have stayed after such a high profile arrival. even if he lost to HHH for the title straight away on his arrival he could have still have made a name for himself if he did looked good doing it. He didnt though and bothched his way through the whole thing as only Steiner could.

The above isnt always the case but if you can backup your star status upon arrival like Jericho, Benoit etc did then I think Vince will eventually reward you no matter what. However there are the odd occasions like the oft highlighted in this thread Dusty Rhodes case where you would have to believe that in most cases its a personal thing between the performer and Vince not just the fact that they worked elsewhere first.

Lord TSC

Without meaning to sound iggnorant here, did Kim have any other spectacular matches in TNA that were not against Kong? Is there any other examples of matches people can use to back up her greatness that don't revolve around Kong and her abilities? Perhaps people need to give Kong some credit for the greatness that was Kim in TNA?

Machismo Fan

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Without meaning to sound iggnorant here, did Kim have any other spectacular matches in TNA that were not against Kong? Is there any other examples of matches people can use to back up her greatness that don't revolve around Kong and her abilities? Perhaps people need to give Kong some credit for the greatness that was Kim in TNA?

No doubt, Kong is probably better than Kim but I think it was a case where they brought out the best in each other rather than one carrying the other. It's difficult to separate them though because they worked together for most of Kim's period in the KO division. Kim was usually the star of most tag matches and tended to carry them, her series with Jackie Moore in 2007 (particularly their Lockdown match) was great, her match with Angelina Love at Victory Road '08 was probably Angelina's best in TNA and the stuff between Roxxi and her at the end of the Sacrifice '08 ladder match was pretty good. But it's not just her quality of work that can be pointed to but also her popularity.

Jolt2007

DDP is one that stands out too. That "feud" with 'Taker...
Bet they regret it now. Had they treated him well they could've somehow made a deal and got a slice of that YRG pie, brother.

johnn

I think the issue with Booker was that actually a lot of people wouldn't have known who he is. I barely could remember him from magazines from when he was in Harlem Heat and hadn't been watching WCW since so obviously wouldn't put him on a par with The Rock.

Also Sting points out that Rock looked at Booker as if to say "Who are you?" this was part of what The Rock did to pretty much everyone on the roster, especially people he hadn't encountered before, jericho being a prime example of this. I'm fairly sure Booker got a pin on angle to regain the World Championship at some point in them early stages too so he wasn't completely buried.

Sting was pretty much recognizable to every wrestling fan so I'm sure he would have been pushed. Vince obviously would know he could get a big PPV buy-rate from creating some dream matches with Sting, I don't think Booker T was in anyone's dream matches back then.

starviewadams

Tazz was treated quite badly if you leave aside the vignettes that aired before he debuted

Goldberg was never booked as the monster that he became famous for in WCW,instead he was forced to wrestle in the slow WWE style which made all of his matches hard to watch(aside from the SS 03 elimination chamber)

davrho

D-FENS wrote: »

For years going back to the 90’s I thought that Vince treated established names from other promotions this way – Vadar, Ron Simmons, Tazz – all former world champions / main eventers who probably made a decent wage with WWE but never achieved the same heights.

Also looked like he had it in for guys who left him and then came back, most notably Steamboat whose 2nd run in the early 90’s was tragic to watch for anyone who remembers him from his time with WWF in the 80’s, and to a

But then again look at guys like Goldberg, Austin, Sid, Rey, Benoit, Eddie, Y2J, RVD, The Dudleys and the LOD, all known names from other promotions who hit the big time with WWF.
And as Sting says in that link, same with Booker, eventually.

Even Foley, who granted had started out with WWF but as a jobber, and for the start of his 90’s WWF career was under a mask, was still a known WCW guy. Nash too, may not have been known as Diesel or even Kevin Nash, but he was a WCW guy and came to WWF and won the world title/main evented WM.

I think we can conspiracy theory all we want, and in some cases be right, but basically if you have sometime Vince can use talent wise (Or in Nash’s case just plain luck) that he’ll use you right

Best post in this thread but as usual the anti-wwe brigade jump on.

Maybe there is a few personal issues with some wrestlers but if a talent can make the wwe millions then they will succeed. It comes down to cash at the end of the day. I think many wrestling fans confuse the "Make a Wish Foundation" adverts with the wwe corporate organisation and have starry eyed dreams for their favorites from other promotions.

As you say Austin, Mysterio, Foley, Jericho(HHH lol) and the rest seemed to do not bad for themselves as "other" talent