Vince and his treatment of "other" talent

gimmick

Just from Jays post in the questions thread

jaykhunter wrote: »

I should mention that Lawler used to cut vicious, scathing promos on Vince's child-friendly WWF whilst he was in the USWA. He was a serious heel. When USWA was turned into basically a feeder-system for the WWF in the early-mid 90s, Lawler was brought in to the WWF, and as punishment, was given a comedy persona and storylines (eg with midgets - dink, wink, pink; having to suck his own smelly toe etc)

How many others did Vince bury when they came to work for him? The most obvious I can think of is Dusty Rhodes when he came in as polka dot wearing moron with a 50+ year old valet.

We all know Vince loves his own creations, so who else was seemingly deliberatly hamstrung from the get go?

Another that springs to mind is Scott Steiner. he was lumped in a god awful feud with HHH - a feud he never recovered from really. Had he been turned heel soon after his arrival I think they could have had a good/great thing on their hands.

Lord TSC

The most recent examples are probably Kaval and, to a mixed extent, Danielson. Both have been kind of pushed but also been given losing streaks, and the fact they are "internet indy favorites" is constantly brought up against them.

gimmick

Disgreee on both counts. Danielson has been dealt with perfectly I think. Apart from his entrance music. And his new "tan".

Both were not established names by any means outside the indies. I think there is a slow build with Kaval as well.

Lord TSC

Danielson is doing ok now. In fact, I'd say his firing was the best thing that ever happened to him.

On NXT though, he was constantly buried both inside the ring and by Cole on commentary. He was losing left right and center and he was constantly billed as "King of the Indies" which in modern days is as close as you'll get to being an "outside" guy. Sure, the show was by and large built around him, but it was often being built around the fact that he was a non-WWE guy who a lot of people had been eager to see, and Vince seemingly wanted to prove those who thought he was great wrong...

gimmick

In that regard with Danielson I would certainly say it was a case of "any publicity is good publicity". Apart from Barrett, he is the only to make any sort of impact on the main roster. Sure Cole (continues to) ridicule him, but in myu mind that is what kept him in peoples minds.

When I say burial, I will use the Dusty example again. He was a former NWA champion and booker. He was an established name before going to WWF, someone who could have done decent business, but instead he was made a mockery of.

I guess we could say that Christian is sort of an example as well. He fecked off to TNA, and when he came back, he was pretty much bottom of the ladder. This was after he was world champ in the other organisation.

Chris Harris and Monty Brown, despite being big enough names in TNA both floundered something rotten in WWE.

Penn

I'd hardly say Christian came back to being bottom of the ladder. He became ECW champion and had a very long reign. Sure, the title meant very little, but he wasn't given a silly gimmick or storyline. He may have been world champ in TNA, but with the main eventers that WWE already had, there was never going to be room for Christian to suddenly burst in and compete for one of the titles.

savemejebus

Chris Harris okay, but that was partly his own fault. Did you see the state of him in ECW???

Monty Brown, i'd disagree with. He was getting over but then, from what i've read, he had to leave to attend to personal issues.

As for Dusty Rhodes in WWE, he did suffer from Vinces treatment but he also suffered from being more out of shape than Bobby Heenan in a federation full of roided and sculpted young dudes. His gimmick was well stale and the only drawing he did was thanks to the 50+ year old valet and the million dollar man imo.

Bounty Hunter

along these lines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktxW0vidElE

flahavaj

At least half the roster in 1980's WWF was grossly mis-used.

The likes of the Bushwhackers were renowned for their hardcore brawling style before they went to WWF and became comedy stooges, Jim Duggan was the top face in Mid South and another brilliant brawler before he became a 2 by 4 wielding special needs looklike, Dusty has already been mentioned, Terry Gordy, the best big man to ever wrestle did a few weeks under a mask as The Executioner, Steve Williams' mid 90's WWE run was a joke compared to hopw good he was and how sh*t the roster was at the time, they never made as big a deal of Arn and Tully as they should have either back in the day.

The right answer really is pretty mnuch anyone Vince didn't create himself.

jaykhunter

I'll have a think about who Vince brought in and buried and get back to ya. Expect most of the names coming from 2001!

With Scott Steiner, I don't blame Vince at all, Steiner had two god-awful matches with a guy who never does (HHH) and that was Steiner's fault. Have you seen those matches? @ the RR all he does is 15 belly to bellies, with a slow recovery, botching his way through the match! It really killed the crowd! HHH was quaking in his boots letting Steiner 'perform' his moveset, I'm sure he was terrified he'd break his neck in the ring with him.

I do love Scott Steiner but his wrestling in the WWE was awful. Did have some wonderful promos though

gimmick

^ That could have been more easily hidden as a heel.

jaykhunter

I'm sure he wasn't cheap, easiest way to hide him is to just have him cut promos or maybe have him tag (although Test isn't exactly the carrying type)

I'm genuinely shocked (and happy to see) that TNA actually booked him more effectively. His last few years in TNA were really entertaining.

Cactus Colm

savemejebus wrote: »

Chris Harris okay, but that was partly his own fault. Did you see the state of him in ECW???

Monty Brown, i'd disagree with. He was getting over but then, from what i've read, he had to leave to attend to personal issues.

Have to agree ... Marcus CorVon was used at a fairly decent level in ECW, if he hadn't had to leave for family reasons I'm sure would have done well enough.

Chris Harris wasn't exactly in the best state when he started in ECW ... although the Braden Walker name is pretty awful.

jaykhunter

"Braden Walker" was never going to get over, but Harris did his best not to get over. Besides an awful singlet and physique, he wrestled really bad and showed no personality. It feels like someone/thing got into his head whenever he signed with WWE and couldn't get it together.

Machismo Fan

Gail Kim. She came in off the back of the best series in mainstream womens wrestling and had proven that she could legitimately connect with the audience on a deeper level than most women and then they proceeded to do absolutely nothing with her.

jaykhunter wrote: »

"Braden Walker" was never going to get over, but Harris did his best not to get over. Besides an awful singlet and physique, he wrestled really bad and showed no personality. It feels like someone/thing got into his head whenever he signed with WWE and couldn't get it together.

It's not like he was given much motivation - fair enough he should've never have shown up in the condition he was in but WWE clearly put zero thought into him. Shame because he should have been a star.

jaykhunter

That's true, but he should've tried to show some initiative -- look at Zack Ryder! There's no way WWE creative put any thought into this mid-card jobber. I think all of his catch-phrases are his own work.

Machismo Fan

jaykhunter wrote: »

That's true, but he should've tried to show some initiative -- look at Zack Ryder! There's no way WWE creative put any thought into this mid-card jobber. I think all of his catch-phrases are his own work.

It's not as if he's a huge success story though. He pops up on Raw every so often for a comedy skit or to job to somebody and then is sent back to Superstars.

flahavaj

Machismo Fan wrote: »

It's not as if he's a huge success story though. He pops up on Raw every so often for a comedy skit or to job to somebody and then is sent back to Superstars.

He held down a job when everyone, myself included thought he'd get the door withing weeks though, which is more than can be said for that fat fella in the leotard that turned up from TNA.:pac:

gimmick

Just as well you didn't bet anyone about then eh Flavers?

Rjd2

Machismo Fan wrote: »

Gail Kim. She came in off the back of the best series in mainstream womens wrestling and had proven that she could legitimately connect with the audience on a deeper level than most women and then they proceeded to do absolutely nothing with her.

Gail turned up was mildly pushed couldn't get over sadly. Her singles matches haven't exactly been classics either, her matches with Mickie and Jillian were abysmal.

Machismo Fan

Rjd2 wrote: »

Gail turned up was mildly pushed couldn't get over sadly. Her singles matches haven't exactly been classics either, her matches with Mickie and Jillian were abysmal.

Mildly pushed? She only had one night where she had focus on her then immediately fell into the background and hasn't seen anything remotely resembling a push since. I don't blame her for not being able to reach the standard she set in TNA, WWE never gave her a chance.

jaykhunter

The point being that Harris did absolutely nothing on-screen to warrant keeping a job, unlike Ryder, who's obviously trying his best.

If Gail can get hugely over in TNA, it should be a cinch in WWE. WWE shoulder all of the blame. Gail is barely on TV and is basically benched, just making up the numbers as just another Diva. I must've blinked and missed that 'light push'!! And Mickie and Jillian are hardly great wrestlers....Gail is the most talented woman on WWE's roster. I can't blame her for taking the money, but WWE are wasting $300,000 per year 'hurting' TNA.

If Gail has had 10 minute matches with McCool or Natalia, or even Beth Phoenix, that'd be another story....

Lord TSC

All I remember from Kim's return was that she had a few matches where she botched, and I ended up thinking how easy it can be to make someone look phenomenal on a taped and edited show.

Regardless though, her real problem lies in Vince's treatment of the Divas division, not his treatment of talent from other companies.

flahavaj

gimmick wrote: »

Just as well you didn't bet anyone about then eh Flavers?

I've been waiting to hear back from the chap I bet with but he's never about anymore....

Machismo Fan

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

All I remember from Kim's return was that she had a few matches where she botched, and I ended up thinking how easy it can be to make someone look phenomenal on a taped and edited show.

Well considering her best matches were on live PPV, that's not really the case.

Lord TSC

Well, I suppose it would probably help then if I didn't view divas matches as inconsequental toilet breaks during PPVs <_<

Or if could be bothered to watch TNA at all >_>

Rjd2

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

All I remember from Kim's return was that she had a few matches where she botched, and I ended up thinking how easy it can be to make someone look phenomenal on a taped and edited show.

Regardless though, her real problem lies in Vince's treatment of the Divas division, not his treatment of talent from other companies.

Yeah she was very sloppy in her first few months, plus she has never ever been over EVER!

Jayk, Mickie and Jillian aren't exactly great workers but they are mildly competent so Gail should have been able to do something with them. She has to take some of the blame for been the jobber that she is.

GTR63

Its funny that some seem to think Christian winning the ecw title was a push since he lost that belt bar MITB matches has he had a ppv match I doubt it. Its a pity for Gail Kim that wwe didn't hire Kong she'd get more of a reaction than all of wwe's divas & the majority of male talent & is a better wrestler than them too.As for Danielson & Low-ki wwe did a bad job pushing them. Lawler insulted face talent a decade ago yeah but he never said they're Boring & Bland thats just pure counter productive.

Machismo Fan

Rjd2 wrote: »

Yeah she was very sloppy in her first few months, plus she has never ever been over EVER!

Jayk, Mickie and Jillian aren't exactly great workers but they are mildly competent so Gail should have been able to do something with them. She has to take some of the blame for been the jobber that she is.

That's just ridiculous. She proved beyond all doubt in TNA that she's a star. She managed to establish a legitimate emotional connection with the fans that went further than people reacting purely based on her looks. Her feud with Awesome Kong was brilliant by any standard (in fact Kong beating Kim for the KO title is the second most viewed video that TNA has uploaded on YouTube), not just when compared to other womens matches and the decline in the Knockouts division after she left is not a coincidence. WWE grossly misused her and she became just another interchangeable Diva as a result despite her being capable of so much more - I don't blame her for not being motivated - it's the Shelton Benjamin syndrome all over again.

Rjd2

Machismo Fan wrote: »

That's just ridiculous. She proved beyond all doubt in TNA that she's a star. She managed to establish a legitimate emotional connection with the fans that went further than people reacting purely based on her looks. Her feud with Awesome Kong was brilliant by any standard (in fact Kong beating Kim for the KO title is the second most viewed video that TNA has uploaded on YouTube), not just when compared to other womens matches and the decline in the Knockouts division after she left is not a coincidence. WWE grossly misused her and she became just another interchangeable Diva as a result despite her being capable of so much more - I don't blame her for not being motivated - it's the Shelton Benjamin syndrome all over again.

Nobody is denying her TNA work isn't good but that is in the past and irrelevant when discussing her WWE career.
I admit she has been cursed with having to work with some rubbish in the diva's division but she has also had matches with the likes of Michelle and Mickie who while no Trish Stratus's are passable in the ring, nothing has been memorable at all.

That's why Christian has done well since his return, he had to work with a lot of lads who were very green on ECW and he made them look like stars, thus he got a nice push.


Creative deserve a lot of criticism for Gail's WWE term but she should accept a little of the blame for her current jobber status.

jaykhunter

"2008" is not in the past and irrelevant when discussing her WWE career. I don't think doing the job in 3 minutes on TV counts as her getting a chance to shine and shouldn't be judged on that. I'd also suggest that those matches were scripted move for move. Given her excellent performances on TNA, regularly being in the highest segment on iMPACT, not to mention her and Kong's match in 2008 that main-evented iMPACT (which must be a first for a women's match); her talent should be beyond reproach.

Unless she has a few stinkers on PPV with established talent (McCool/Natalia) she should be given the benefit of the doubt. Just because someone hasn't had a decent match doesn't mean they're not capable -- especially when they've shown excellency beforehand.

It's like saying "Punk is crap on the mic" just because he hasn't cut a promo in 6 months.