Kidney, your thoughts?

heybaby

Just wondering what people are thinking regarding Declan Kidney in the light of Ireland's 5 successive defeats, an abject performance against samoa and an impending hammering at the hands of the kiwis?

Hook posed a question at the weekend as to this irish team being in terminal decline, if so is kidney to blame?

His success with munster will always be on his cv but was he a little bit lucky to have won the grandslam with a team built essentially by osullivan?

Is this irish set up in a better place in November 2010 than it was after the wales match when we won the grand slam?

Is kidney wrong to persist with players like hayes and exclude players like cullen and geordan murphy?

In his post match press conference after the samoan game kidney said that when your players are trying new things ie running with the ball in hand, things dont always go your way, particularly in the prevailing weather conditions, is this total and utter nonsense or am i missing something?

forlorndonkey

I don't think Ireland is in terminal decline when we have young players like Bowe, Earls, Fitzgerald, SOB etc coming through all the time.

I do think if Kidney doesn't stop ignoring players like Cullen etc and persists with picking out of form players he has to go. And as soon as possible to give the new guy time to establish himself.

With Geordan Murphy and Bob Casey I always assumed it was because they play for English clubs and so wouldn't have the benefit of practising with their team mates day in day out? Then again Bowe plays for Ospreys so I don't know.

LFC5Times

Maybe it's too early to say and maybe the 6 Nations will give us more information, but he/his reign is slowly starting to remind me of the latter part of O'Sullivan's and his persistence with certain players etc.

LeeroyJones

While I am too peeved at the recent performances and a handful of questionable selections, I still have 100% faith in Kidney. It seems to be the flavour of the week to jump on the 'Kidney hates player X' bandwagon.

However if we look at the bigger picture he has given us options in every position, a point that many choose to ignore. The EOS comparisons are quite tedious. Why? Well because under EOS we had the following

1.Horan
2.Flannery
3.Hayes
4.DOC
5.POC
6.Easterbuy
7.Wallace
8.Leamy
9.Reddan
10.ROG
11.Hickie
12.D'arcy
13.BOD
14.Horgan
15.Dempsey

Outside of that XV Stringer, Best & Murphy could hope for a start. As for the subs, predictable MOK, Best, P Wallace and Trimble fits all across 11,12,13 and 14. Outside of that core group of players there were few who challenged for the bench. We went to France 2007 with Carney, Ferris, Quinlan, Young, Sheahan and Buckley making up the numbers.

Now, we have options-very viable options thanks to Kidney

1.Healy/Horan
2.Flannery/Best/Cronin
3.Buckley/Court/Ross (granted it is immensley frustrating to see Hayes selected here, I hold my hands up here and admit I can't defend Kidney on that one!)
4.DOC/Cullen/Toner
5.POC/Ryan
6.Ferris/Leamy
7.Wallace/SOB
8.Heaslip/Leamy
9.Stringer/Reddan/TOL/Boss
10.Sexton/ROG
11.Fitz/Earls
12.D'arcy/P Wallace
13.BOD/Fitz/Trimble/Earls
14.Bowe/J Murphy/
15.Kearney/G Murphy/Fitz

The Ross issue does bug me, as does J Murphy-I would like to see him given a run considering he's training in the squad and not many players have had a go at 14.

The list of names though is an enormous difference between Kidney and EOS' reign. With the exception of Ross and J Murphy all those players (and others) have played under Kidney's tenure and thus has given us options. What annoys me is his reluctance to experiment with tighthead options, but that's all really.
The discussion re; Casey and Cullen is a viable one but there would also be some sort of an outcry if Ryan or Toner hadn't been given a run so you can't please everyone.
It's actually a good scenario to be in when there are heated debates over who should start ala ROG-Sexton, Wallace-Darcy, Fitz-Earls, Fla-Best-Cronin-Cullen-DOC, Ferris-Leamy, Wallace-SOB etc.... these are not debates we had in autumn 2006 prior to WC07

tolosenc

Look, if we're going to get rid of him, it has to be before the 6N. His replacement needs time to settle in before the WC.

I definitely think he should go.

"Is kidney wrong to persist with players like hayes and exclude players like cullen and geordan murphy?"

Absolutely. Maybe there is a bit of an only-select-Magner's-League-players attitude for Murphy's exclusion, but leaving out Cullen is insane. Definitely in the top 2 SRs illegible, yet is at least 6th in the pecking order for Ireland.

"His success with munster will always be on his cv but was he a little bit lucky to have won the grandslam with a team built essentially by osullivan?"

I think the Grand Slam was a fluke. EOS should have won 2 or 3 and blew them, Kidney just happened to be there when O'Sullivan's team finally pulled it together (barely). With selections like Hayes', it seems like Kidney is trying to directly port his success with Munster into the international team.

"In his post match press conference after the samoan game kidney said that when your players are trying new things ie running with the ball in hand, things dont always go your way, particularly in the prevailing weather conditions, is this total and utter nonsense or am i missing something?"

The weather conditions aside, if you replace Tommy Bowe with Isa Nacewa in the SA match, you had the same Leinster backline which tore apart Racing Metro suddenly unable to to do anything. Something smells off.

andrewdcs

tolosenc wrote: »

The weather conditions aside, if you replace Tommy Bowe with Isa Nacewa in the SA match, you had the same Leinster backline which tore apart Racing Metro suddenly unable to to do anything. Something smells off.

point.


Generally I think its head space, he can turn it around, has before. Look at the last 6 nations, yes disappointing, especially the dour manner of our wins (some ugly comparisons with England I remember but every game is individual.

For me, possibly O'Driscolls captaincy should end. his leadership on the pitch in this series and in the 6 nations (casting my eye back) haven't done anything for him or the team. At critical points in the past few games its been others who seem to grab the scruff on the pitch, think back to the heady days of 09 when you could rely on him to change the gears. Let him relax back into his game.

irishbucsfan

heybaby wrote: »

In his post match press conference after the samoan game kidney said that when your players are trying new things ie running with the ball in hand, things dont always go your way, particularly in the prevailing weather conditions, is this total and utter nonsense or am i missing something?

They weren't trying new things though. O'Gara kicked everything as per usual. That's why we should consider Kidney's position.

We can sit here and say he's overlooked Cullen, but we don't know that he's fully fit. And his coaching staff have as much of a say in the team selection as he does I'd imagine. It's the teams tactical deficiencies, mixed with his inability to use the bench (so frustrating) that are undermining this team IMO.

The weather conditions aside, if you replace Tommy Bowe with Isa Nacewa in the SA match, you had the same Leinster backline which tore apart Racing Metro suddenly unable to to do anything. Something smells off.

Exactly. That's an excellent example of how it's not the team selections that are letting us down, rather it's the coaching of the team itself. People are saying D'Arcy and O'Driscoll haven't played well, but D'Arcy's been in great form and O'Driscoll is O'Driscoll. It's the coaching.


The problem is, who would replace the current coaching setup? I don't see anyone out there... Ruddock?

CatFromHue

its all john hayes fault

;-)

Tim Robbins

I have never been a huge Kidney fan. I never liked his style of Rugby and he bores the be jayous out of me.

He did well to get the slam but where he was lucky, EOS was unlucky. The quality of rugby the year of the slam wasn't great. The French match was great but the English match almost put me to sleep. And it was the French that made that a great game because they counter attacked all day.

amiable

Why would anyone want to get rid of Declan Kidney?
Very strange people. Too much time on your hands.

Badgermonkey

He will get to the World Cup regardless of 6N performance & that's only right and proper.

I would happily have swapped Eddie for Mike Ruddock tbh.

The game now rewards risk and ambition with ball in hand and this has left Deccie and Gert looking a little behind the curve.

WeeBushy

Yes Kidney has developed new players, but I think he has been too slow doing it and when everyone is fit he does have favourites that seem to get picked, regardless of form.

He has been an improvement compared to EOD in terms of playing new players, but he still lags behind southern hemisphere French coaches in trying out new players and tactics. Obviously we don't have the playing resources of some of these countries, but we are still very slow at changing out team.

I think that's why people complain about Kidney - yes he's been an improvement on EOD, but we should be comparing ourselves against the best teams/coaches out there, not our previous coach, if we want to be the best.

He definitely deserves his shot at a world cup, but i do think we can demand more from him.

CatFromHue

realistically this is a knee jerk reaction.

this time last year we drew with the aussies, beat s.a. and fiji and were on top of the world we had a new saviour in sexton and healy was the best prop in the world.

we lost AWAY to france and everyone knows how hard it is to win over there.

we lost to scotland and the baa baas at home,new zealand, the maori, australia away and s.a. at home.

in our losing streak we played the top 3 teams in the world and put out two experimental teams against the baa baas and the maori.

the south africans who we under estimated beat the welsh on the weekend, granted i only saw the lost 5/10 mins but they looked very very comfortable for their win.

we had no scrum or lineout against a team that prides itself on its scrum and lineout yet the reason they scored their 2 try's and hence won were by individual errors. i do blame kearney for their second try and the first was an intercept.

for the 4 games of the summer we hit by injurys and were always going to struggle.

we have never beaten the kiwis and they were set and waiting for us in that game. they were frankly awesome in the first half!

the maori beat an english 15 after they beat us and have a great record against international teams and our first 15 would struggle to beat them let alone our second 15.

the oz game was the last of the year and i do feel we could have beaten them but then we had a back row of henry, jennings, and ronan as there was no one else to play! the last game of the season we tend to struggle in as well.

when you look at it that way the losses dont sound too bad.

getting rid of kidney now would achieve nothing and make irish rugby look stupid

corny

Not sure he deserves to be shown the door just yet but for me blind faith has been replaced with some scepticism. He can't get away with ridiculous decisions forever. Forget about the obvious. Should pick Ross, should pick Cullen, John Hayes, MOD. The manner in which we're playing now and the fact that not one of our players is standing up to be counted is very worrying. Our performances have been littered with mistakes for a while now and when players don't show the same form at club level you know something is wrong. Is it just confidence or are the players tired of the same decision making most people on here complain about. For me Deccies days are numbered. Sad but true.

bleg

tolosenc wrote: »

Look, if we're going to get rid of him, it has to be before the 6N. His replacement needs time to settle in before the WC.

I definitely think he should go.

"Is kidney wrong to persist with players like hayes and exclude players like cullen and geordan murphy?"

Absolutely. Maybe there is a bit of an only-select-Magner's-League-players attitude for Murphy's exclusion, but leaving out Cullen is insane. Definitely in the top 2 SRs illegible, yet is at least 6th in the pecking order for Ireland.

Hasn't Murphy gotten a good few games under Kidney? Last week he gave Fitzgerald a chance at FB which loads of people have been calling for. Seriously like, he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

The weather conditions aside, if you replace Tommy Bowe with Isa Nacewa in the SA match, you had the same Leinster backline which tore apart Racing Metro suddenly unable to to do anything. Something smells off.

Yea but that Leinster backline has been misfiring for every other match this season...

LostPassword

I think he's doing a great job. I admire his bravery in persisting with a more ball in hand game, even though its obviously not very effective in the conditions - hopefully it will pay off come the world cup. I also like the way he's impervious to the media/fans eternal hope in "the propsect", undertands the importance of experience in international rugby and balances the need to build a squad with the need for continuity.

CatFromHue

bleg wrote: »

Seriously like, he's damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

bingo!

interestingly enough mick o driscoll was man of the match against australia in june according to planet rugby

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,9989_6231216,00.html

im not a huge fan of kidney but this is a bit riduclous. we will know alot more about kidney this time next year. then we can judge him.

also george hook has being saying ireland, munster and leinster are in decline since i started watching rugby.

ButtersSuki

I'd like to see a change for a lot of reasons (if I had more time I'd list them now but i will return to this tomorrow or later in the week) but it's NOT going to happen pre-World Cup even if we lose by 50 on Saturday (not unlikely) and get beaten at home in the 6N by England and France (and on current form of all those teams that's more likely than unlikely) as the IRFU cannot afford to break his contract and pay him to go.

I fear we'll have a very bad 6N with the two home games being probable/potential losses and 3 away trips. Yikes....

stephen_n

LostPassword wrote: »

I think he's doing a great job. I admire his bravery in persisting with a more ball in hand game, even though its obviously not very effective in the conditions - hopefully it will pay off come the world cup. I also like the way he's impervious to the media/fans eternal hope in "the propsect", undertands the importance of experience in international rugby and balances the need to build a squad with the need for continuity.

What ball in hand game is this? did you watch the last two matches? If that were true then what is happening at the moment would be forgiveable but we are trying to play the exact same game that won us the slam even though the game of rugby has moved on. Blaming Kidney is a knee jerk reaction as it's the coaching staff as a whole that are the problem, but having said that Kidney is in charge them. the individual coaches are simply not good enough apart from defense. We need a new backs coach and a new forwards coach too. I would also wonder has Kidney lost the confidence of the senior players with his tactics. BOD's statement after the game the other day seemed strange to me and the performances and body language of the players would seem to run contrary to it. Kidney is a clever fecker though and hopefully he can turn things around because at the moment it looks bleak!

tolosenc

bleg wrote: »

Yea but that Leinster backline has been misfiring for every other match this season...

No, not that back line. For a start, the Racing game was Sexton's first start this year, with BOD and others missing a good few games up till then too. They played quite well against Sarries. They didn't play against either Edinburgh or Connacht.

So, essentially, that back row plays for Leinster and works very well, and then either the attitude in the Ireland camp, or the tactics being employed by the management is screwing it all up.

phog

tolosenc wrote: »

No, not that back line. For a start, the Racing game was Sexton's first start this year, with BOD and others missing a good few games up till then too. They played quite well against Sarries. They didn't play against either Edinburgh or Connacht.

So, essentially, that back row plays for Leinster and works very well, and then either the attitude in the Ireland camp, or the tactics being employed by the management is screwing it all up.

.......... or they simply aren't International standard, maybe good enough for M/L or H/C but not able for the step up to an International game :rolleyes:

stephen_n

phog wrote: »

.......... or they simply aren't International standard, maybe good enough for M/L or H/C but not able for the step up to an International game :rolleyes:

Yeah because the racing backline is piss poor and not of an international standard! :rolleyes:

stejkenny

phog wrote: »

.......... or they simply aren't International standard, maybe good enough for M/L or H/C but not able for the step up to an International game :rolleyes:

BOD Darcy Kearney Fitzgerald and Nacewa......not international standard!!

I think they have just had some off games lads; nothing to worry about and phog i dont know where you have been for the last 3 years. That back line would make it into any international first team hands down. Statements like that start arguements and you know it.

irishbucsfan

CatFromHue wrote: »

realistically this is a knee jerk reaction.

Nothing knee-jerk about it. What has this team learned about itself this year? In what ways have we improved, and in what ways are we more prepared for the world cup next year than we were at the end of last year?

We haven't built a squad, just recycled through all the old options. We seem to be the only team in world rugby unwilling to adapt our game to the style that most suits these rule interpretations.

d'Oracle

Rule interpretations be damned.

The problem is ageing players and inadequate talents for positions.
I think Kidney has been unwilling to blood players, he is guilty of treating this autumn series and last summers series as must win games instead of development opportunities. As a result we have players lacking experience sitting behind players who should be looking at retirement.

Couple this with a handful of players who just plain lack the ability or physical attributes in key areas of their position and we have a recipe for another rubbish WC showing.

But sacking him would create more disorder, its too late to both find a new boss and get the necessary development work done. So we may as well leave him there and see if its all part of some masterplan that I can't comprehend.

danthefan

phog wrote: »

.......... or they simply aren't International standard, maybe good enough for M/L or H/C but not able for the step up to an International game :rolleyes:

D'Arcy, BOD, Fitz and Kearney aren't able to step up to international level? You read some really daft things on here but this takes the biscuit.

LostPassword wrote: »

I think he's doing a great job. I admire his bravery in persisting with a more ball in hand game, even though its obviously not very effective in the conditions - hopefully it will pay off come the world cup. I also like the way he's impervious to the media/fans eternal hope in "the propsect", undertands the importance of experience in international rugby and balances the need to build a squad with the need for continuity.

You are imagining this ball in hand game. Matt Williams was on Newstalk this week saying he cannot see any pattern in our attacking play, I dare say he knows more about attacking rugby and backplay than anyone who posts on here.

And picking experienced guys has worked a treat in 2010 hasn't it.

theKramer

I would definitely have gone from a Kidney is the man to being less forgiving of him. Especially in his persistence with Hayes. I also dont understand his reluctance to pick Cullen. Its obvious they are struggling to adapt to the new gameplan, although they seemed to be able to throw the ball around during the summer tour.
I think the total lack of a setpiece has made things even harder for this team.

My big problem is that Kidney does not seem to be seeing what everyone else sees as regards our setpiece play....

outwest

amiable wrote: »

Why would anyone want to get rid of Declan Kidney?
Very strange people. Too much time on your hands.

same reason we got rid of eddie, results have been poor. but eddied was never as bad as what kidney is now

outwest

danthefan wrote: »

D'Arcy, BOD, Fitz and Kearney aren't able to step up to international level? You read some really daft things on here but this takes the biscuit.




You are imagining this ball in hand game. Matt Williams was on Newstalk this week saying he cannot see any pattern in our attacking play, I dare say he knows more about attacking rugby and backplay than anyone who posts on here.

And picking experienced guys has worked a treat in 2010 hasn't it.

i think ur right dan, but bod and darce currnet form for ireland have been anything but international. kearney been poor for ireland for a while know.

murphym7

Kidneys record:

IRB U19s World Championship 1998
Celtic League 2002/03
Celtic Cup 2004/05
Heineken Cup 2005/06
Heineken Cup 2007/08
Triple Crown 2009
RBS Six Nations Championship 2009 (Grand Slam)
Churchill Cup 2009

Ireland has had a bad run of it since the end of last season, but your right string him up and sack him. He does not have a clue.

stephen_n

murphym7 wrote: »

Kidneys record:

IRB U19s World Championship 1998
Celtic League 2002/03
Celtic Cup 2004/05
Heineken Cup 2005/06
Heineken Cup 2007/08
Triple Crown 2009
RBS Six Nations Championship 2009 (Grand Slam)
Churchill Cup 2009

Ireland has had a bad run of it since the end of last season, but your right string him up and sack him. He does not have a clue.

9 out of 10 statistics prove nothing

Right so we should just look at Kidneys record and not look at the Irish performances in 2010?

murphym7

stephen_n wrote: »

99% of all statistics prove nothing

Right so we should just look at Kidneys record and not look at the Irish performances in 2010?

Why don't we just put things in perspective a little bit instead of judging a guy on his performance over whats not even a year. These knee jerk comments of other posters saying he should be sacked are iritating in the extreme and shows a lack of maturity in knowledge and understanding of international level rugby. Its not the English premiership, we don't sack managers because of less than a year of mediocre performances.

I referenced his track record to prove the point that the man must know a thing or two about rugby - I would suggest a lot more than any of us on this forum.

outwest

IRB U19s World Championship 1998
Celtic League 2002/03
Celtic Cup 2004/05
Heineken Cup 2005/06
Heineken Cup 2007/08
Triple Crown 2009
RBS Six Nations Championship 2009 (Grand Slam)
Churchill Cup 2009

in fairnerss he won a lot. hes is a good coach but hasnt proved it in a while. not picking form players, picking " these lads have a job before". munster is his thing and only knows one way of playing a game, big foward, rumble up the field. international rugby is different from the club game. you need to use a squad of 22 player in a match squad. we gonig into a wc with a poor squad that because he kept going with the same group of players. when were lucky to beat samoa at home then alarms bells should ring out that some players he is picking are past the used by date.

CatFromHue

we are a long way away from the world cup

look at jake white and south africa they stank a year out from the world cup

danthefan

murphym7 wrote: »

Why don't we just put things in perspective a little bit instead of judging a guy on his performance over whats not even a year. These knee jerk comments of other posters saying he should be sacked are iritating in the extreme and shows a lack of maturity in knowledge and understanding of international level rugby. Its not the English premiership, we don't sack managers because of less than a year of mediocre performances.

I referenced his track record to prove the point that the man must know a thing or two about rugby - I would suggest a lot more than any of us on this forum.

He knows a thing or two about setting up a kicking OH behind a dominant pack. That is not good enough with the way the international game is being played these days. There's a ridiculous inertia about his reign over the team at the moment in terms of picking guys who are clearly not up to it, refusing to address the set piece, an inability to put a coherent gameplan together. Ireland are a mess at the moment.

Bogsnorkler

Kidney is a joke. He hasn't coached a team to win the 3N, S14, TOP14 or the World Cup. Sher he's won the rest but that's meaningless. Spoofer.

LeeroyJones

It has been said to me before, and I didn't take any notice of it. However, the opinions I have heard by many have made me agree that there are some stark parallels with the Ireland rugby team+fans and the England soccer team+fans.

ie. A squad of truely talented players with fans who like to claim them as the World's best when things are going well, but, more worryingly, fans who want rid of the coach when results are not going their way.

Somebody already pointed out that Matt Williams is better at recognising talent , or lack of, than most fans. Well the same goes for Declan Kidney, I trust his tactics sooner than I trust the desired tactics of the fans-my own included. His CV speaks for itself and the CVs of his fellow coaches.
We, as fans, want results-that's natural... but we entrust a coach to be looking at a bigger picture rather than short term goals. I, for one, trust Kidney to take us to the World Cup and to give us his best shot. His best shots tend to be good ones.

murphym7

LeeroyJones wrote: »

It has been said to me before, and I didn't take any notice of it. However, the opinions I have heard by many have made me agree that there are some stark parallels with the Ireland rugby team+fans and the England soccer team+fans.

ie. A squad of truely talented players with fans who like to claim them as the World's best when things are going well, but, more worryingly, fans who want rid of the coach when results are not going their way.

Somebody already pointed out that Matt Williams is better at recognising talent , or lack of, than most fans. Well the same goes for Declan Kidney, I trust his tactics sooner than I trust the desired tactics of the fans-my own included. His CV speaks for itself and the CVs of his fellow coaches.
We, as fans, want results-that's natural... but we entrust a coach to be looking at a bigger picture rather than short term goals. I, for one, trust Kidney to take us to the World Cup and to give us his best shot. His best shots tend to be good ones.

Well said - trust is what is needed here. None of us are professional coaches here, I will trust him to make the right decisions for the goal of a good world cup. If its proven he has made a mess of it after that I'll join the bandwaggon.

Eoin

The Grand Slam was a great achievement - but I think we were playing better when we came second a few years ago. The only difference between those two results was a not securing kick-off against France to lose, and a missed kick by Wales for us to win.

Unless Stringer was injured last Saturday, I didn't like seeing Boss coming on for the last 3 minutes of the match. What's the point of that? I'd much rather see a few combinations of scrumhalf and outhalf. Why not see what Sexton was like with a scrumhalf who can get the ball to him quicker than Reddan did?

LeeroyJones wrote:

Now, we have options-very viable options thanks to Kidney

I don't think Kidney picked them all from obscurity in fairness - a few of them were just about coming through when EOS was around.

Chucky the tree

LeeroyJones wrote: »

It has been said to me before, and I didn't take any notice of it. However, the opinions I have heard by many have made me agree that there are some stark parallels with the Ireland rugby team+fans and the England soccer team+fans.

ie. A squad of truely talented players with fans who like to claim them as the World's best when things are going well, but, more worryingly, fans who want rid of the coach when results are not going their way.

Somebody already pointed out that Matt Williams is better at recognising talent , or lack of, than most fans. Well the same goes for Declan Kidney, I trust his tactics sooner than I trust the desired tactics of the fans-my own included. His CV speaks for itself and the CVs of his fellow coaches.
We, as fans, want results-that's natural... but we entrust a coach to be looking at a bigger picture rather than short term goals. I, for one, trust Kidney to take us to the World Cup and to give us his best shot. His best shots tend to be good ones.

I certainly don't. How can you trust a coach who starts John Hayes in an international match to be looking at the bigger picture? In my opinion it's quite obvious Kidney is doing the complete opposite of looking at the bigger picture and just looking at the short term. If he was looking at the bigger picture he'd be aiming to get a squad of players for the world cup. It's something he should have done in the AI last year but yet again we looked at the short-term. We got the results and most people seemed delighted, but what good are those results now? Has it made us a better squad? Certainly hasn't.


Look at the squad for the South Africa match, where's the bigger picture?

MOD - the guys 32 and not very good. Strong chance he won't even make the WC cup squad(well, he shouldn't but with EOS 2.0 in charge..) so why not give someone else a go? There's absolutely zero future planning or thought going into starting a player like MOD.

David Wallace - SOB has been brilliant for Leinster this year and he starts Wallace? Unreal, again I bow down to Kidney's superior knowledge obviously but I'm really really struggling to see the bigger picture with this selection. Yet again it seems we are happy going into the world cup with no squad experience at all.

It's like we have learned nothing from EOS's cock up. We look like we are going into another world cup with a set 15 players and every outside of that is just there to make up numbers. What happens if Wallace gets injured? We'll have to turn to SOB and ask to do a job when he has very little international experience under his belt in the middle of a world cup. What if Wallace is playing ****? Will Kidney risk playing a guy with little international experience under his belt? Probably not.

The funny thing is while England seemed to have over-taken us and our probably better then us now, all while we laughed at them for keeping on MJ as manager. Chris Ashton made his debut in the 6 nations against France, it was also Ben Fodens first 6 nations game. Can you ever imagine Kidney give two players their debut's against France in Paris? I certainly can't. He'd sooner be on the phone to Denis Hickie asking him to come out of retirement then call him Fionn Carr. I've seen nothing from Kidney that would suggest we'll have a good squad of players for the World cup.

JustinDee

Chucky the tree wrote: »

The funny thing is while England seemed to have over-taken us and our probably better then us now, all while we laughed at them for keeping on MJ as manager. Chris Ashton made his debut in the 6 nations against France, it was also Ben Fodens first 6 nations game. Can you ever imagine Kidney give two players their debut's against France in Paris? I certainly can't. He'd sooner be on the phone to Denis Hickie asking him to come out of retirement then call him Fionn Carr. I've seen nothing from Kidney that would suggest we'll have a good squad of players for the World cup.

Chris Ashton made his debut because Johnson had no choice and he was in-form. It was the concluding end of the tournament and they were not scoring tries. Actually if memory serves me right, their top try scorer was a backrower. Monye's form was deteriorating even further. They were well beaten by Ireland the previous round. Foden was also chucked in because Armitage just was not improving and had a shocking penalty count.
Change was inevitable and unavoidable.

But hang on . . . who's that over on the other wing? Mark Cueto? Whats he still doing there?!

You won't see many changes, if necessary, until after this series is over I'd say. I trust their gameplan as its obviously got the RWC in mind. There are 10 or 11 games to go before the tournament kicks off.
Squad should be nice and settled by then.

danthefan

JustinDee wrote: »

Chris Ashton made his debut because Johnson had no choice and he was in-form. It was the concluding end of the tournament and they were not scoring tries. Actually if memory serves me right, their top try scorer was a backrower. Monye's form was deteriorating even further. They were well beaten by Ireland the previous round. Foden was also chucked in because Armitage just was not improving and had a shocking penalty count.
Change was inevitable and unavoidable.

So basically, he saw his incumbent players weren't cutting it and decided to make changes? I wish such revolutionary thinking was adopted by the Irish management.

JustinDee

danthefan wrote: »

So basically, he saw his incumbent players weren't cutting it and decided to make changes? I wish such revolutionary thinking was adopted by the Irish management.

He was forced to make changes following a disastrous two seasons.
There was still time for the RFU to appoint new coaching panel with the RWC in mind.

In that same timeframe, Ireland have won the Grand Slam then the next year, been runners-up after admittedly two poor losses.
Similar to what some folk posting here seem to think is a model setup for coaching and selection in England, on tour Ireland were forced to make changes.

stejkenny

Dan easy there, our scrum is fine we dont need to change that at all

theKramer

Chucky the tree wrote: »

What happens if Wallace gets injured? We'll have to turn to SOB and ask to do a job when he has very little international experience under his belt in the middle of a world cup. What if Wallace is playing ****? Will Kidney risk playing a guy with little international experience under his belt? Probably not.

Very good post. Picked out this part as it has already happened with Sean Cronin. Was not put on the pitch for the Scotland game when Best was having a meltdown, yet made his international debut against the All-Blacks during the summer with zero international exposure as we had no other hooker to play. When Best had a meltdown again against SA, there was no Cronin brought on. Why put the guy on the bench if you are not going to use him when the other hooker is in complete meltdown......

trackguy

Kidney is the man who is taking us to the World Cup and so he should be. For all the ppl who are talking about getting rid of him, I haven't spotted many suggestions for who they would have replace him?

Would you throw out the whole coaching team too - as surely they are part of this huge problem? We would have a whole new coaching management team less than a year from the world cup? That would be lunacy.

If Ireland are trying to change their game - as they seemed to be trying to do in the 6 Nations & Summer Tour, and in these Nov Intls then I think the management have acted in time for the WC. They need to be given time to implement.

The unfortunate thing is Ireland have looked terrible since they tried to be more expansive. The players haven't got to grips with it yet and it would seem that Kidney hasn't grasped what his best team is (to suit the new gameplan). Both these issues should improve with time.

danthefan

JustinDee wrote: »

He was forced to make changes following a disastrous two seasons.
There was still time for the RFU to appoint new coaching panel with the RWC in mind.

In that same timeframe, Ireland have won the Grand Slam then the next year, been runners-up after admittedly two poor losses.
Similar to what some folk posting here seem to think is a model setup for coaching and selection in England, on tour Ireland were forced to make changes.

Johnson dropped guys who weren't playing well, brought in guys who were doing well in the GP, and stuck with them.

Kidney was actually forced to change guys in the summer because his first choice players were injured. It is a completely different situation.

LeeroyJones

My Goodness, these EOS/WC2007 made up parallels are getting old and annoying.

People love pointing at the John Hayes selection -v- Samoa, but choose to forget that SOB, Cronin, Court, Toner, Leamy and Trimble all were selected too.

Every coach will have a XV which he feels is the strongest. The key to a World Cup is to have a back-up player for each position to fill in without hindering the XV. has Kidney got this, yes.

1.Healy (if injured or in poor form: Horan. Does Horan still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No)
2.Flannery (if injured or in poor form: Cronin/Best. Do Best/Cronin still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? Cronin does, guess what-he started last week, and during the summer tour)
3.Buckley (if injured or in poor form: Court. Does Court still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? Kidney is giving him gametime) OK, you have me on the Hayes selection-I concede that, but Kidney has identified Buckley to start
4.DOC (if injured or in poor form: Cullen. Does Cullen still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No) Please remember Cullen was out for a long spell prior to November, and Kidney is in a better position to judge whether or not he should start than any of us on boards.ie
5.POC (if injured or in poor form: Toner/Ryan. Do Toner/Ryan still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? Kidney is giving it to them this series)
6.Ferris (if injured or in poor form: Leamy. Does Leamy still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No)
7.Wallace (if injured or in poor form: SOB. Does SOB still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? Yes, Kidney started him last week and unless Mystic Meg posts on here we can't say whether or not the Samoa game will be his only exposure)
8.Heaslip (if injured or in poor form: Leamy. Does Leamy still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No) OK Leamy is back up for 2 positions, but Kidney did give Henry a go and he didn't impress, no coach can just invent a back up top class No.8

9. Well we have 4 scrum halves, you're guess is as good as mine as to who will start in 12 months, who all have international experience and Kidney has seen them all in his sides
10.ROG & Sexton (2 players of top international standard-may I remind readers that if Kidney had listened to much of the outcry, Sexton would never play for Ireland again. I remember there being a disturbing amount of support for that sentiment)
11.Fitzgerald (if injured or in poor form: Earls. Does Earls still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No)
12.D'arcy (if injured or in poor form: Wallace. Does Wallace still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No)
13. BOD (if injured or in poor form: Trimble. Does Trimble still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No)
14.Bowe (if injured or in poor form: J Murphy. Does J Murphy still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? Yes) I hold my hands up here again, it does bug me that he was selected on the squad and has not been utilised. However, although I have Trimble and Earls covering 13 and 11 they both can do a job at 14 if needs be)
15.Kearney (if injured or in poor form: G Murphy. Does G Murphy still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No)

The Hayes and J Murphy issues are irritating, but by no means sackable offences!!!!

So there you have a starting XV, and back up in all positions....................................................................... I forgot this was the same situation as WC07 :rolleyes:

padser

LeeroyJones wrote: »

My Goodness, these EOS/WC2007 made up parallels are getting old and annoying.

People love pointing at the John Hayes selection -v- Samoa, but choose to forget that SOB, Cronin, Court, Toner, Leamy and Trimble all were selected too.

Every coach will have a XV which he feels is the strongest. The key to a World Cup is to have a back-up player for each position to fill in without hindering the XV. has Kidney got this, yes.

1.Healy (if injured or in poor form: Horan. Does Horan still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No)
2.Flannery (if injured or in poor form: Cronin/Best. Do Best/Cronin still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? Cronin does, guess what-he started last week, and during the summer tour)
3.Buckley (if injured or in poor form: Court. Does Court still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? Kidney is giving him gametime) OK, you have me on the Hayes selection-I concede that, but Kidney has identified Buckley to start
4.DOC (if injured or in poor form: Cullen. Does Cullen still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No) Please remember Cullen was out for a long spell prior to November, and Kidney is in a better position to judge whether or not he should start than any of us on boards.ie
5.POC (if injured or in poor form: Toner/Ryan. Do Toner/Ryan still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? Kidney is giving it to them this series)
6.Ferris (if injured or in poor form: Leamy. Does Leamy still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No)
7.Wallace (if injured or in poor form: SOB. Does SOB still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? Yes, Kidney started him last week and unless Mystic Meg posts on here we can't say whether or not the Samoa game will be his only exposure)
8.Heaslip (if injured or in poor form: Leamy. Does Leamy still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No) OK Leamy is back up for 2 positions, but Kidney did give Henry a go and he didn't impress, no coach can just invent a back up top class No.8

9. Well we have 4 scrum halves, you're guess is as good as mine as to who will start in 12 months, who all have international experience and Kidney has seen them all in his sides
10.ROG & Sexton (2 players of top international standard-may I remind readers that if Kidney had listened to much of the outcry, Sexton would never play for Ireland again. I remember there being a disturbing amount of support for that sentiment)
11.Fitzgerald (if injured or in poor form: Earls. Does Earls still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No)
12.D'arcy (if injured or in poor form: Wallace. Does Wallace still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No)
13. BOD (if injured or in poor form: Trimble. Does Trimble still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No)
14.Bowe (if injured or in poor form: J Murphy. Does J Murphy still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? Yes) I hold my hands up here again, it does bug me that he was selected on the squad and has not been utilised. However, although I have Trimble and Earls covering 13 and 11 they both can do a job at 14 if needs be)
15.Kearney (if injured or in poor form: G Murphy. Does G Murphy still need top class exposure in preparation for the WC? No)

The Hayes and J Murphy issues are irritating, but by no means sackable offences!!!!

So there you have a starting XV, and back up in all positions....................................................................... I forgot this was the same situation as WC07 :rolleyes:

I really wish you there coach.

You would be happy to turn up and play

G Murphy, Trimble, Earls, P Wallace, Leamy, Cullen, Best and Horan (who hasn't played for Ireland in about 18 months, and for Munster about 5 games in the last 12 months)

at the world cup with no top class exposure between now and then.


Well you have achieved your objective - suddenly Kidney doesnt look as bad anymore....

LeeroyJones

padser wrote: »

I really wish you their coach.

You would be happy to turn up and play G Murphy, Trimble, Earls, P Wallace, Leamy, Cullen, Best and Horan (who hasn't played for Ireland in about 18 months, and for Munster about 5 games in the last 12 months) at the world cup with no top class exposure between now and then.


Well you have achieved your objective - suddenly Kidney doesnt look as bad anymore....

Hope you don't me tidying up your 3 part sentence.

So where did I say they shouldn't play top-class rugby for the next 12 months?

I pointed out that Kidney needs to know his favourite XV, and also know who to deploy in back up and when to deploy them.
A subtle rotation of the players I mentioned is what's needed and that is what's being done

d'Oracle

Just gonna throw this out there.

According to every coach, S&C coach and rugby mind I have heard:
Older players need exposure/Games More than younger players.

But with that said....Every player needs top class exposure to be ready for a WC.
Every. Single. Player.