Time To Cut Social Welfare Payments

the groutch

this is a paraphrase of the Daily Mail's front page article:

http://www.thejournal.ie/workers-turn-down-e15hr-to-stay-on-benefits-2010-11/

no wonder there's so many people on the dole, they're literally being paid not to work
hopefully all these payments are cut by a good 10% in the budget

PeterIanStaker

cut the ludicrous TD's expenses while they're at it.



oh wait, no, cant do that, it'd be a good idea.

ArtSmart

the groutch wrote: »

this is a paraphrase of the Daily Mail's front page article:

http://www.thejournal.ie/workers-turn-down-e15hr-to-stay-on-benefits-2010-11/

no wonder there's so many people on the dole, they're literally being paid not to work
hopefully all these payments are cut by a good 10% in the budget

oh don't be such a groutch

MultiUmm

the groutch wrote: »

this is a paraphrase of the Daily Mail's front page article:

http://www.thejournal.ie/workers-turn-down-e15hr-to-stay-on-benefits-2010-11/

no wonder there's so many people on the dole, they're literally being paid not to work
hopefully all these payments are cut by a good 10% in the budget

Yeah, because 13.9% of the workforce just love living on €196 p/w while knowing it's damn near impossible to get a job unless you're already in employment.

Although it doesn't surprise me that you'd be so ignorant after citing a Daily Mail article as your source.

alex73

Its a given fact they will cut JSA to atleast around 180 a week. Its still a lot higher than in the UK.

danbohan

MultiUmm wrote: »

Yeah, because 13.9% of the workforce just love living on €196 p/w while knowing it's damn near impossible to get a job unless you're already in employment.

Although it doesn't surprise me that you'd be so ignorant after citing a Daily Mail article as your source.

tweee, good your so well informed and intelligent , now you can tell us where we are going get the money to continue paying 196 per week + rent when most countrys in europe are cutting back on sw payments even the ones unlike us who not totally bankrupt eg germany

sambora

hopefully all these payments are cut by a good 10% in the budget

Such a biased attitude to have. The only way it would be easy to live on the dole was if everyone was able to claim EVERY single benefit under the sun.
Those who are just getting by on the 196 a week do not deserve to have their money cut. It is not their fault they are on the dole. Until recently I was in that exact situation. Things such as Rent Allowance is vital for some people out there, and when it becomes something that's assessed (if you happen to be getting other benefits such as "travel allowance") that's when people get into serious difficulty. The Government doesn't give a rat's a$$ about things like that. All they care about is building stupid "monuments" like the spire and bailing out politicians etc.
Benefits that are completely unneccessary to some people, are the things that need to be reassessed, when it comes to the issue of Social Welfare. There are people who are sponging everything they can, even if they're junkies. They shouldn't be given 197 a week, and whatever else they're supposedly entitled to. They are the kind of people that give everyone else on the dole a bad name. Everyone is seen as a sponge .

maynooth_rules

I have said it time and time again but people that have worked for years and payed their taxes deserve their social welfare for at least a year at nothing less that €170 IMO. Those that are making a living off the dole, and haven't worked in 5 years should be made live on €50.

MultiUmm

danbohan wrote: »

tweee, good your so well informed and intelligent , now you can tell us where we are going get the money to continue paying 196 per week + rent when most countrys in europe are cutting back on sw payments even the ones unlike us who not totally bankrupt eg germany

I'm not saying it shouldn't be cut, I'm realistic and I realise cuts must be made in all sectors, what I was irked by was the OP's assumption that there are hundreds of thousands on the dole because they're "literally being paid not to work". Living on the dole is not by any stretch of the imagination easy. The feeling of uselessness and a lack of purpose is what hits a lot of people.

Do you not think those people who want to go back into employment would really stay on the dole if a job opportunity arose? That idea is ludicrous.

PomBear

People seem to forget pre-recession there was 150,000 or so on the dole. Now there's 450,000 unemployed. Can't imagine all on the dole are a bunch of welfare sponges that won't work, not even close to a majority. Most on the dole are trying to support families. One of the last things that should be cut.

MultiUmm

babyoncocaine wrote: »

I know a lot of people on the dole who simply dont want to work,lot of working class joes were defrauding the system,people will vote FF again!

Yeah, because all our current problems can be blamed on the "working class joes" as you call them.

:rolleyes:

Get real. This utter mess we're in is the result of the extremely wealthy playing around with money like it was a game of monopoly. The "working class joes" are hardly the bad guys. What you refer to are dole scroungers and charlatans who had/ have no interest in working. The working class work (or at least they did when they had employment opportunities).

btard

That's such a new and novel idea Op. You should be commended for your originality and thoughtfulness in bringing this to our attention. Also, for making us aware of that giant of journalistic ventures, The Mail.

Please accept my humble thanks :cool:

MultiUmm

PomBear wrote: »

People seem to forget pre-recession there was 150,000 or so on the dole. Now there's 450,000 unemployed. Can't imagine all on the dole are a bunch of welfare sponges that won't work, not even close to a majority. Most on the dole are trying to support families. One of the last things that should be cut.

As much as I hate to admit it, it should be cut by at least some amount. What I don't agree with is that welfare is where the axe should fall first.

Why inflict the brunt of the pain on those who are just scraping by? Is it too much trouble for the government to do away with the many pointless quangos that exist? Afaik there's something like 800 atm. An utter farce that so many useless leeching organisations exist.

Also, does anyone know if there's some kind of landlord's tax in place? With the price of rent surely this would raise some amount of money?

GarlicBread

the groutch wrote: »

this is a paraphrase of the Daily Mail's front page article:

http://www.thejournal.ie/workers-turn-down-e15hr-to-stay-on-benefits-2010-11/

no wonder there's so many people on the dole, they're literally being paid not to work
hopefully all these payments are cut by a good 10% in the budget

The logical thing to do would be to cut the dole for those who are found out to be dodging work unfairly. If you cut it unilaterally you will be hitting the people who need it and are allready living in poverty. What a snotty, ignorant right wing thread to start.

Its also important to note, the daily mail is cheaper than toliet paper, but even though im on the dole myself, my ass is better than that rag.

MultiUmm

GarlicBread wrote: »

The logical thing to do would be to cut the dole for those who are found out to be dodging work unfairly. If you cut it unilaterally you will be hitting the people who need it and are allready living in poverty. What a snotty, ignorant right wing thread to start.

Its also important to note, the daily mail is cheaper than toliet paper, but even though im on the dole myself, my ass is better than that rag.

I have a problem with this theory. If you were to assess everyone on the dole and research their work history and any employment opportunities which may have come their way, would that not require many more civil servants to be hired to handle the work load of this? We can't afford the civil servants we have, never mind having extra.

PomBear

MultiUmm wrote: »

As much as I hate to admit it, it should be cut by at least some amount. What I don't agree with is that welfare is where the axe should fall first.

Why inflict the brunt of the pain on those who are just scraping by? Is it too much trouble for the government to do away with the many pointless quangos that exist? Afaik there's something like 800 atm. An utter farce that so many useless leeching organisations exist.

Also, does anyone know if there's some kind of landlord's tax in place? With the price of rent surely this would raise some amount of money?

there's €6 billion lost in tax every year from under the tabl deals that the taxman miss, start there and you don't need to cut welfare, health or education

MultiUmm

PomBear wrote: »

there's €6 billion lost in tax every year from under the tabl deals that the taxman miss, start there and you don't need to cut welfare, health or education

Examples?

later12

MultiUmm wrote: »

Also, does anyone know if there's some kind of landlord's tax in place? With the price of rent surely this would raise some amount of money?

Income tax.

In fairness, while i'm not sticking up for property developers (not that all landlords are developers), the last thing we need to do right now is to hammer the property industry even further by making it look even more unattractive to investors than it already is.

I have a problem with this theory. If you were to assess everyone on the dole and research their work history and any employment opportunities which may have come their way, would that not require many more civil servants to be hired to handle the work load of this? We can't afford the civil servants we have, never mind having extra.

Perhaps we ought to let the guards guard the guards in this case.

We still train people to be builders, carpenters and electricians in this country through Fas. This, in a country with an enormous surplus of builders, carpenters and electricians on the Dole. Ridiculous? Yes.

So why not train these people in some sort of office or management positions, by putting them in trainee regulatory positions while still just paying them Dole rates (or slightly higher, whatever the current figure is). this way they could regulate the system in which they themselves partake, for no significant extra cost, and subjecting to verification by Department of social Welfare inspectors already operating the system.

It certainly beats training them to become unemployed brickies.

c montgomery

When electrical, carpentry etc.. apprentices and doing their FAS module they should not be paid for it.
They are in effect students who are being paid by the state while at the same time university students have to pay to attend collage.
Huge double standards

yoshytoshy

There'll be other problems when the social welfare is cut ,probably a run on hospitals when people can't afford doctors etc.
More nixers and under the table transactions ,more imported cigarettes.

All in all ,way less taxes.

Recessions are a pain in the ass.

MultiUmm

later10 wrote: »

Income tax.

In fairness, while i'm not sticking up for property developers (not that all landlords are developers), the last thing we need to do right now is to hammer the property industry even further by making it look even more unattractive to investors than it already is.


Perhaps we ought to let the guards guard the guards in this case.

We still train people to be builders, carpenters and electricians in this country through Fas. This, in a country with an enormous surplus of builders, carpenters and electricians on the Dole. Ridiculous? Yes.

So why not train these people in some sort of office or management positions, by putting them in trainee regulatory positions while still just paying them Dole rates (or slightly higher, whatever the current figure is). this way they could regulate the system in which they themselves partake, for no significant extra cost, and subjecting to verification by Department of social Welfare inspectors already operating the system.

It certainly beats training them to become unemployed brickies.

I'm somewhat torn on this. If a landlord already owns the property he's renting out to people, how will it hammer the property industry even more? It will be less money out of his or her pocket but what effect will it have on the property industry? I suppose if they were interested in expanding and buying some more property it could discourage them from doing this? Perhaps a system where it only applies to very wealthy established landlords might be worth looking at?

I like your idea about training unemployed builders/ electricians etc. to take over from FÁS by training apprentices, but the question is would people be willing to do that on dole rates? I personally think it's a good idea but you can't force people to do something if they don't want to.

Mr McBoatface

the groutch wrote: »

this is a paraphrase of the Daily Mail's front page article:

http://www.thejournal.ie/workers-turn-down-e15hr-to-stay-on-benefits-2010-11/

no wonder there's so many people on the dole, they're literally being paid not to work
hopefully all these payments are cut by a good 10% in the budget

Firstly lets be 100% real here, those people who joined the social welfare queue in the last 2-3 years didn't do it out of choice. They are not the same as the career benefit fraudster who couldn't get a job during the boom years.

There is no detail in the article, how can you judge the facts ? For example :- where are those jobs quoted by the paper, what business sector are they in, how do they compare to wage rates in similar positions ? Some business sectors don't have enough people trained in them so those sectors will always find it hard to get people no matter what they pay. An unemployed builder can't be a java programmer no matter what the rates are.

Everybody with children gets a Monthly child benefit payment. It is not a something reserved for those claiming the dole. Including it in the figures quoited by the paper is wrong. Means testing it would make sense the rich don't need it.

Rent allowance which is different per county (in Dublin it's over a grand a month) is not paid out to every body. Mr & Mrs X who lost their jobs and have a mortgage don't get it, they might get mortgage interest relief. Just about everybody with a recently new mortgage gets interest relief at source ... I see fcuk all people employed or unemployed looking for that to be cut. So yet again another form of state aid this time for housing costs is not reserved for those claiming the dole. That said why anybody gets rent allowance from the state is beyond me. There are so many empty house owned either by the state (via NAMA) or councils there should be no need for it.

Some social welfare payments like carer's allowance represent great value for money, having sick and elderly people looked after at home instead of in state hospitals saves the state a fortune. If it's cut many carer's simply will not cope, the state could end up loosing more money when all the sick previously cared for at home are dropped off at hospital doors.

FAS work placement schemes WPP1/2 are funded for by the state, a person on the dole can be placed in a private business for 9 months of the year without that private business paying a cent. While the idea may have been noble, you just have to look at some of the demands these private companies have like " person with degree and with 5 - 10 years previous experience " in a job role so experience can be gained. This system is a joke and some companies are abusing it, it's relevant to the subject under discussion because it's taking jobs out of the market.

My brother has just completed part1 of a FAS training scheme, part2 won't start for another 6 months or so. There is loads of work in the sector he is getting trained in, yet he will have to what 6 months for the state agency to complete his training so he can actually have a steady work again. The are loads of examples like this .... it's relevant to the subject under discussion because if you fix this type of crap he and many others will be working again and not claiming the dole.

Rather than suggestion on what should be cut from the people unfortunate enough to be on the dole I love to see some suggestion on how to get them back to work or retained in job sectors that need people.

Maybe some of those advocating deep cuts across the board in social welfare would be happy to job share with the recently unemployed 1 week on 1 week off .... for the good of the nation.;)

MultiUmm

yoshytoshy wrote: »

There'll be other problems when the social welfare is cut ,probably a run on hospitals when people can't afford doctors etc.
More nixers and under the table transactions ,more imported cigarettes.

All in all ,way less taxes.

Recessions are a pain in the ass.

If a person is on the dole they're entitled to a medical card which covers doctors expenses, bar the 50c prescription charge for medicines.

yoshytoshy

MultiUmm wrote: »

If a person is on the dole they're entitled to a medical card which covers doctors expenses, bar the 50c prescription charge for medicines.

I didn't realise that ,sorry.

So people on the dole , could possibly be getting more than dole amount at the moment ?

murphaph

later10 wrote: »

So why not train these people in some sort of office or management positions, by putting them in trainee regulatory positions while still just paying them Dole rates (or slightly higher, whatever the current figure is). this way they could regulate the system in which they themselves partake, for no significant extra cost, and subjecting to verification by Department of social Welfare inspectors already operating the system.

This is not as crazy as it sounds. I know a girl (friend of my GF) who was unemployed here in Berlin for a good while. She was offered a job in the dole office checking peoples' claims. Of course, if she hadn't taken it, she'd have had her benefit cut.

MultiUmm

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I didn't realise that ,sorry.

So people on the dole , could possibly be getting more than dole amount at the moment ?

Not off the state anyway, unless they're claiming other benefits such as disability allowance and the dole at the same time although I'm not sure if this is allowed or not?

A medical card only entitles you to free medical treatment if you need it. It's not a cash in hand payout.

MultiUmm

murphaph wrote: »

This is not as crazy as it sounds. I know a girl (friend of my GF) who was unemployed here in Berlin for a good while. She was offered a job in the dole office checking peoples' claims. Of course, if she hadn't taken it, she'd have had her benefit cut.

Just out of curiosity, did she have to go for a training course first or was she just given the job immediately?

FTA69

the groutch wrote: »

this is a paraphrase of the Daily Mail's front page article:

http://www.thejournal.ie/workers-turn-down-e15hr-to-stay-on-benefits-2010-11/

no wonder there's so many people on the dole, they're literally being paid not to work
hopefully all these payments are cut by a good 10% in the budget

Employers struggling to fill €15 an hour positions? B*llocks. Plain and simple.

yoshytoshy

MultiUmm wrote: »

A medical card only entitles you to free medical treatment if you need it. It's not a cash in hand payout.

I understand it's not a cash payment ,but if someone is prone to certain ailments and it doesn't affect their ability to work. It might be more beneficial for them not to work.

What exactly do people on the dole ,not have to pay for ?
Did I hear something about not having to pay bin charges and tv licence aswell ?

MultiUmm

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I understand it's not a cash payment ,but if someone is prone to certain ailments and it doesn't affect their ability to work. It might be more beneficial for them not to work.

What exactly do people on the dole ,not have to pay for ?
Did I hear something about not having to pay bin charges and tv licence aswell ?

People on the dole don't pay for medical treatment but everything else still applies (bar certain taxes like income tax obviously enough). Bills, tv licence, bin charges, NCT's, everything has to be paid for.

later12

yoshytoshy wrote: »

I understand it's not a cash payment ,but if someone is prone to certain ailments and it doesn't affect their ability to work. It might be more beneficial for them not to work.

How are the two things connected? it isn't just dole recipients who are entitled to medical cards. IN fact, not all dole recipients have medical cards nor may they be entitled to them.

yosemite_sam

MultiUmm wrote: »

I have a problem with this theory. If you were to assess everyone on the dole and research their work history and any employment opportunities which may have come their way, would that not require many more civil servants to be hired to handle the work load of this? We can't afford the civil servants we have, never mind having extra.

The dole should be 70 euro a week, and be limited to six months

MultiUmm

yosemite_sam wrote: »

The dole should be 70 euro a week, and be limited to six months

I can see you put much thought into this. So tell me, what happens after the six months and people have no money for food and water? Mass starvation and anarchy to solve the unemployment crisis? Smashing idea, old chum.

NewHillel

This thread is just depressing, just putting the boot in to people when they're already down.

yosemite_sam

MultiUmm wrote: »

I can see you put much thought into this. So tell me, what happens after the six months and people have no money for food and water? Mass starvation and anarchy to solve the unemployment crisis? Smashing idea, old chum.

I have thought about it, I see people using the system all their adult lives without putting a cent in. That is wrong, you have a welfare system here that encourages bums and fails decent folk who need it now

angelfire9

babyoncocaine wrote: »

What's another council house to another whore and a child benefit cheque,lot of cohabiting couples(some i know and will not mention) have been dodging the welfare for years

Scumbags are not just at the top you know

I get the child benefit for my daughter and am expecting no. 2 in December does that make me a "whore"? I don't think so

MultiUmm wrote: »

If a person is on the dole they're entitled to a medical card which covers doctors expenses, bar the 50c prescription charge for medicines.

No medical card in this household, no mortgage interest relief, nothing except the basic JSB I will be paid for 12 months and then i'll get nothing as my husband earns too much :rolleyes:

Doesn't mean that the €196 a week isn't damn useful IT IS

Would I accept a job paying €15 a hour? Damn right I would even if it would be a massive cut on what I used to earn before the company I worked for closed down last may
€15 an hour for a 39 hour week is €585 gross a week
I'd snap the hand off any employer offering me that!

I'd work for alot less if it got me out of the house every day and back to a work situation where i'd actually have people to talk to instead of which I am stuck at home with four walls & the cat!

But feel free to continue with ye're generalisations.....

Shea O'Meara

The sad thing is, I've noticed over the last few years that people are begining to believe that being a bit of a **** to people is okay if you can back it up economically.
I ask why are two of the most recent topics on here lowering minimum wage and cutting welfare?

The country is screwed financially. We need to make tough cuts, of course. But ten or twenty euro a week to a person on the dole is like hundreds from the pocket of a politician.
We should work our way down, not up when it comes to cuts. If the state deems minimum wage & the current welfare rate acceptable, fair enough. Can't we get politician to shift and meet somewhere in the middle before turning on the already financially disadvantaged?

It's all very well to be clinical about it, but the state is ours and for us, the more we penalise those already in a bad situation to help those who created it stay as is, is beyond me. Again, being a harsh **** seems to be the hip trait these days, makes people feel all economically savvy while forgetting what a society is about. We need run it like a company in certain, but not all areas.
So don't be a ****;)

ArtSmart

jobyrne30 wrote: »

Firstly lets be 100% real here, those people who joined the social welfare queue in the last 2-3 years didn't do it out of choice. They are not the same as the career benefit fraudster who couldn't get a job during the boom years.

There is no detail in the article, how can you judge the facts ? For example :- where are those jobs quoted by the paper, what business sector are they in, how do they compare to wage rates in similar positions ? Some business sectors don't have enough people trained in them so those sectors will always find it hard to get people no matter what they pay. An unemployed builder can't be a java programmer no matter what the rates are.

Everybody with children gets a Monthly child benefit payment. It is not a something reserved for those claiming the dole. Including it in the figures quoited by the paper is wrong. Means testing it would make sense the rich don't need it.

Rent allowance which is different per county (in Dublin it's over a grand a month) is not paid out to every body. Mr & Mrs X who lost their jobs and have a mortgage don't get it, they might get mortgage interest relief. Just about everybody with a recently new mortgage gets interest relief at source ... I see fcuk all people employed or unemployed looking for that to be cut. So yet again another form of state aid this time for housing costs is not reserved for those claiming the dole. That said why anybody gets rent allowance from the state is beyond me. There are so many empty house owned either by the state (via NAMA) or councils there should be no need for it.

Some social welfare payments like carer's allowance represent great value for money, having sick and elderly people looked after at home instead of in state hospitals saves the state a fortune. If it's cut many carer's simply will not cope, the state could end up loosing more money when all the sick previously cared for at home are dropped off at hospital doors.

FAS work placement schemes WPP1/2 are funded for by the state, a person on the dole can be placed in a private business for 9 months of the year without that private business paying a cent. While the idea may have been noble, you just have to look at some of the demands these private companies have like " person with degree and with 5 - 10 years previous experience " in a job role so experience can be gained. This system is a joke and some companies are abusing it, it's relevant to the subject under discussion because it's taking jobs out of the market.

My brother has just completed part1 of a FAS training scheme, part2 won't start for another 6 months or so. There is loads of work in the sector he is getting trained in, yet he will have to what 6 months for the state agency to complete his training so he can actually have a steady work again. The are loads of examples like this .... it's relevant to the subject under discussion because if you fix this type of crap he and many others will be working again and not claiming the dole.

Rather than suggestion on what should be cut from the people unfortunate enough to be on the dole I love to see some suggestion on how to get them back to work or retained in job sectors that need people.

Maybe some of those advocating deep cuts across the board in social welfare would be happy to job share with the recently unemployed 1 week on 1 week off .... for the good of the nation.;)

Post of the Week.

ArtSmart

NewHillel wrote: »

This thread is just depressing, just putting the boot in to people when they're already down.

not everyone is.

NewHillel

ArtSmart wrote: »

not everyone is.

True, but still depressing!

danbohan

PomBear wrote: »

People seem to forget pre-recession there was 150,000 or so on the dole. Now there's 450,000 unemployed. Can't imagine all on the dole are a bunch of welfare sponges that won't work, not even close to a majority. Most on the dole are trying to support families. One of the last things that should be cut.

yes , but that 150,000 who were on the dole during the boom when we imported 500,000+ foreign workers should have their dole cut to 25 euro per week and be given food vouchers , this country cannot afford generational welfare recipients anymore .

yosemite_sam

yosemite_sam wrote: »

The dole should be 70 euro a week, and be limited to six months

Well, I'm curious about some things since you have thought this out... Have you ever lived in Ireland on only €50 a week as an adult?

It would be interesting to see where someone would firstly be able to get accommodation (without a deposit), paying... err.. €20 a week in rent, and what towards bills & food? What if you have a mortgage, car expenses, previous debt, or dependents?

And as for limited to 6 months... What do you expect them to do then? Are they suddenly to get work? Suddenly to leave the country? etc. What? Seriously, I would love a detailed answer.

yosemite_sam wrote: »

I have thought about it, I see people using the system all their adult lives without putting a cent in. That is wrong, you have a welfare system here that encourages bums and fails decent folk who need it now

I'm on the the dole. I started working straight after school, went to college twice (with no grant), and have worked in Ireland for a total of 14 years. Not once did I claim any welfare entitlements, since I paid for my own health insurance, and my own hospital visits. What next? Oh, I left Ireland for three years (working in Oz, and Asia), and when I came back there was no work. And I went on the dole, but my PRSI entitlements voided after 2 years so my previous working period means nothing since work outside means nothing... [to be clear, I've been on the dole a total of 13 months]

I get annoyed with attitudes like yours because they paint everyone on the dole as being a waster, and yet, a large number of those on it, are newcomers to such a situation. For all your talk about the welfare system failing decent folk, it is your attitude that stinks the worst.

BluntGuy

Deleted User wrote: »

I get annoyed with attitudes like yours because they paint everyone on the dole as being a waster, and yet, a large number of those on it, are newcomers to such a situation. For all your talk about the welfare system failing decent folk, it is your attitude that stinks the worst.

Those kind of sweeping generalisations don't help anything, I agree.

Unfortunately however, we do have two broad layers of spongers in our society, those at the bottom sponging off the taxes of workers and those "at the top" sponging off the labour and talent of others whilst contributing little of value apart from simply having money or connections. People often overlook one and focus too much on the other, or class whole groups of people as either i.e. all social welfare recipients are ________, all rich people are ________.

However, each of those problem classes are a drain on our society, and should be dealt with, regardless of the economic situation. Using these problems as a justification of cutting social welfare when the reality is we simply don't have the money is callous in my opinion.

dlofnep

Minimum wage = €346 per week. In that household, it would have been €692 a week between the two of them. I wonder exactly how it was they were going to get nearly €700 a week for the household on welfare.

Could someone work out the maths for me please?

gurramok

dlofnep wrote: »

Minimum wage = €346 per week. In that household, it would have been €692 a week between the two of them. I wonder exactly how it was they were going to get nearly €700 a week for the household on welfare.

Could someone work out the maths for me please?

Its probably due to having 3 kids. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66188084&postcount=337 (and living in DCC council area to get a high rent allowance)

Nehaxak

Unemployed couple with 2 school going children get around €385 per week, + back to school + fuel allowance (extra €20 per week during winter months).

There's an argument to be made for sure in regards rent allowance, especially that it's unduly propping up house rental market where rents would otherwise be a lot lower if the rent allowance did not exist but cutting back on assistance payments would impact drastically on couples with children especially.

There's an awful lot of better ways to go about this rather than the quick and easy populist opinion of cutting payments - just for the sake, whether you admit it or not, of just seeing people suffer.

Anyway, where the hell are the jobs paying €15 an hour ? I'll have a go at one of those please, thanks very much ! :eek:

gurramok

Nehaxak wrote: »

Unemployed couple with 2 school going children get around €385 per week, + back to school + fuel allowance (extra €20 per week during winter months).

Isn't it €392pw for an unemployed couple available for work? What about child benefit of 300pm for 2 kids?

Nehaxak wrote: »

There's an argument to be made for sure in regards rent allowance, especially that it's unduly propping up house rental market where rents would otherwise be a lot lower if the rent allowance did not exist but cutting back on assistance payments would impact drastically on couples with children especially.

There's an awful lot of better ways to go about this rather than the quick and easy populist opinion of cutting payments - just for the sake, whether you admit it or not, of just seeing people suffer.

I(as a PAYE worker) want rent allowance reduced(not scrapped) for single or married parents with kids as its costing me high rent as its artificially propping up the rental market at my expense. If it was reduced by 100 quid for this grouping, my rent will also be reduced by 100quid in time as the base level for rents will be met.

As well as Rent allowance is costing 500m+, it has to be touched. I agree that accommodation and childcare costs are the root of the problem preventing certain parents on welfare from working or transitioning from part time work to full time work.

later12

gurramok wrote: »

Isn't it €392pw for an unemployed couple available for work? What about child benefit of 300pm for 2 kids?

No. It's not. and child benefit is for everyone so it is immaterial whether the individual is unemployed or earning 100, 000 per year. In my opinion, while unemployment needs to be re-examined, it is of much greater imperative that we examine children's allowance.

I(as a PAYE worker) want rent allowance reduced(not scrapped) for single or married parents with kids as its costing me high rent as its artificially propping up the rental market at my expense. If it was reduced by 100 quid for this grouping, my rent will also be reduced by 100quid in time as the base level for rents will be met.

It is highly likely that rent allowance will be reduced, but you're crazy if you think that a reduction like a 100euro reduction would be either beneficial or likely to occur.
Leaving aside how deleterious this would be for the property market, lets just look at the individual effect (since we are talking about basic accomodation for human beings who are already struggling with he cost of living). You would essentially be taking 100 euro per week from someone's dole money, not to mention the donation they are already required to make from their dole money.
For someone on 196eur/wk this would leave them for money in the region of 70 euros to live on in the week. That's about 10 euro per day to cover food, energy and electricity bills, transport costs and any unforeseen charges like non prescription medical costs or travelling for job interviews. You think that in a sustained recession like this, where jobs are extremely hard to come by, that this is achievable?

Furthermore, rent supplement is not just for those who are unemployed, it is also available to people working less than 30 hours per week who are in need of additional support.

Personally I believe the social welfare system is inefficient and overly generous in some cases. However, I wouldn't go completely mad by suggesting a 100 euro per week decrease in rent supplement and expect that to decrease my own private rental costs by 100 euro per week.

That's just ridiculous.

gurramok

later10 wrote: »

No. It's not. and child benefit is for everyone so it is immaterial whether the individual is unemployed or earning 100, 000 per year. In my opinion, while unemployment needs to be re-examined, it is of much greater imperative that we examine children's allowance.

Explain where the poster got 385 then?

Yes, child benefit should be counted as they get it as part of their 'pay'.

later10 wrote: »

It is highly likely that rent allowance will be reduced, but you're crazy if you think that a reduction like a 100euro reduction would be either beneficial or likely to occur.
Leaving aside how deleterious this would be for the property market, lets just look at the individual effect (since we are talking about basic accomodation for human beings who are already struggling with he cost of living). You would essentially be taking 100 euro per week from someone's dole money, not to mention the donation they are already required to make from their dole money.
For someone on 196eur/wk this would leave them for money in the region of 70 euros to live on in the week. That's about 10 euro per day to cover food, energy and electricity bills, transport costs and any unforeseen charges like non prescription medical costs or travelling for job interviews. You think that in a sustained recession like this, where jobs are extremely hard to come by, that this is achievable?

Leaving aside your unreal caring of the property market, I did not say 100 pw. 100 per mth would be a starter. And how exactly will landlords short of cash reject the new levels and penalise the tenants in the pocket?

As I said before, the govt control 50% of the private rental sector, that's 90,000+ humans. If the landlords refused to accept the new rent levels, where will 90,000+ humans come from to fill the void?

Hence there will be no hard luck stories like you say as its outright misleading to suggest that tenants will be left starving on a reduction. I suppose you also oppose moving said tenants into social units, that will leave 'poor' landlords out of pocket too.

later10 wrote: »

Furthermore, rent supplement is not just for those who are unemployed, it is also available to people working less than 30 hours per week who are in need of additional support.

And they cannot work more than 30hrs per week as they will start losing their benefits.

later10 wrote: »

Personally I believe the social welfare system is inefficient and overly generous in some cases. However, I wouldn't go completely mad by suggesting a 100 euro per week decrease in rent supplement and expect that to decrease my own private rental costs by 100 euro per week.

That's just ridiculous.

Ain't ridiculous on a per mth basis. As i said, a new lower level of asking rents will be reached, the other 50% of the market(me) will meet that new level.

later12

gurramok wrote: »

Explain where the poster got 385 then?

Google the rates. I have pasted a link below, but it isn't my job to bring you such simple facts. The rate you posted is incorrect.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/social_welfare/social_welfare_payments/unemployed_people/jobseekers_allowance.html

Personally, I think that in some cases this is too high, I'm merely pointing out that the poster is correct.

Yes, child benefit should be counted as they get it as part of their 'pay'.

The childrens allowance rate should not be ignored. But neither should it be ignored when counting the wages of the employed. That is what I mean when I say it is cancelled out. It will be given whether an individual gains employment or not, therefore it has nothing to do with unemployment savings. Child Allowance paymens need a huge overhaul first and foremost.

As I said before, the govt control 50% of the private rental sector, that's 90,000+ humans.

Link?

Hence there will be no hard luck stories like you say as its outright misleading to suggest that tenants will be left starving on a reduction. I suppose you also oppose moving said tenants into social units, that will leave 'poor' landlords out of pocket too.

Depends what you mean by social units, but no actually. Personally i think that 100 euro per month reduction in rental supplement is not completely ridiculous.

And they cannot work more than 30hrs per week as they will start losing their benefits.

But financially they will be better off.

BluntGuy

BluntGuy wrote: »

Unfortunately however, we do have two broad layers of spongers in our society, those at the bottom sponging off the taxes of workers and those "at the top" sponging off the labour and talent of others whilst contributing little of value apart from simply having money or connections. People often overlook one and focus too much on the other, or class whole groups of people as either i.e. all social welfare recipients are ________, all rich people are ________.

The thing I notice about the figures coming out about the numbers on the dole either before the economic downturn or afterwards is the lack of detail about those coming on or off the dole. Fact is, I have seen nothing which tells us the average time that a person spends on the dole, and the figure of 100k or the later 450k does nothing to relate to those who find work, or those who later lose work again. Or even those who have left the country.

Instead we have a broad figure which people assume consists of unemployed who have stayed constantly on the dole.

However, each of those problem classes are a drain on our society, and should be dealt with, regardless of the economic situation. Using these problems as a justification of cutting social welfare when the reality is we simply don't have the money is callous in my opinion.

And the point is that the drain is pretty much a minority and can be tracked down without attacking the whole.

I get annoyed with the cutting of the dole, when the government proposes the introduction of new taxes on property and other factors. So while I'll get my dole amount reduced, I'll have to pay an increase for the "privilage" of owning my own property that is costing more than its bringing in. Never mind the host of other taxes or charges which they'll bring in. At the end of the day, the dole is a life-line for a lot of us.