Degenerative disc disease

thehamo

Hi all.

I have a condition called degenrative disc disease where the disc in my back has thinned out and worn down and its causing me great pain.

If anyone is aware of the condition, can you reccomend a treatment? Ive tried the Chiropractor but after about 5 sessions and seeing no results at all i have decided to give it a miss. I am warey about physio becuse and time I have gone to a physio they have done absolutely nothing and charged me a fortune and a new appointment time. Im at my whits end so if any one could suggest something i would be forever greatful!

star-pants

Perhaps see if your GP can refer you to a specialist, or maybe try another physio if you're unsatisfied?

Rant1

thehamo wrote: »

Hi all.

I have a condition called degenrative disc disease where the disc in my back has thinned out and worn down and its causing me great pain.

If anyone is aware of the condition, can you reccomend a treatment? Ive tried the Chiropractor but after about 5 sessions and seeing no results at all i have decided to give it a miss. I am warey about physio becuse and time I have gone to a physio they have done absolutely nothing and charged me a fortune and a new appointment time. Im at my whits end so if any one could suggest something i would be forever greatful!

Suffering with DDD last 3-4 years(seems longer). Physio didn't work for me. Don't think I gave it 100%. Also felt it was moving too slow and after 350euro worth of visits and no improvement the physio basically told me that was all she could do for me . That was 2/3 years ago. Since then I've tried a few different things but the thing that I feel has worked best for me is Pilates.

Swimmings also supposed to good but I cant so that rules it out for me.
The Pilates hasn't stopped the pain but it has lessened it to a degree and I think my core is much stronger which really helps.

Been at my wits end too a good few times over the last few years. Just getting over my latest back spasm this week. All you can do is try to keep active. Though I know how hard it is to get motivated when the pains there.

Anyway, give the pilates a go for definite if you can.

dannyo666

Get to see a consultant without a doubt via your gp first-dont ask for it,demand it if your on medical card.Forget chiropracters and physios ime.Defo keep up the pilates and swimming,walking etc.An good honest osteopath can help too but definitley see a consultant first otherwise your going round in circles with an empty wallet

Good luck:)

Rant1

dannyo666 wrote: »

Get to see a consultant without a doubt via your gp first-dont ask for it,demand it if your on medical card.Forget chiropracters and physios ime.Defo keep up the pilates and swimming,walking etc.An good honest osteopath can help too but definitley see a consultant first otherwise your going round in circles with an empty wallet

Good luck:)

My Doc got me an appointment to see an orthopedic surgeon in the Mater hospital after I had an MRI. Waited 4 hours to see the dastard. He told me to do a few simple movements and then sat there smiling to himself, after an uncomfortable minute or two he basically told me to run along and don't be wasting his time with such trivial matters. Come back to me when your foocked is what I think he meant. Was left to my own devices after that.

Just my experience though, I'm not suggesting that other people don't bother.

flossie

Rant1 wrote: »

My Doc got me an appointment to see an orthopedic surgeon in the Mater hospital after I had an MRI. Waited 4 hours to see the dastard. He told me to do a few simple movements and then sat there smiling to himself, after an uncomfortable minute or two he basically told me to run along and don't be wasting his time with such trivial matters. Come back to me when your foocked is what I think he meant. Was left to my own devices after that.

Just my experience though, I'm not suggesting that other people don't bother.

Hi, I am 28 with DDD in L4/5. I currently have an empty 'sac' between the discs and have been in constant discomfort (I won't necessarily say pain as i have a very high pain threshold generally!) and it has severely affected my life - had to give up rowing, running etc and even walking too far aggrivates it, as does driving, sitting, standing etc.

GP referred me to surgeon in Mater Private as she wasn't happy with the way things were progressing. I went along, to a fairly 'respected' surgeon, who looked at my MRIs and said i have the back of a typical 35 year old with a bad back. I explained i wasn't 35, i was 27. He said it 'should' get better in the next 5-7 years, and basically told me to stop whinging. I asked how my quality of life could be improved, as i was eager to start running again. He said he has 60+ year old friends who have bad backs and run marathons. I should take 2 Neurofen before and then after a run and get on with things. I suggested that if i was in pain then surely my body is telling me that something is wrong and it should be looked at. I got glared at. All in all, I was in and out in 10 minutes, not even so much as an examination. I was in tears as i walked out, having paid €230 to be told that.

Went to the GP and said i wasn't happy with what happened. She was mortified, and reassured me that this was an extreme case. She has since referred me to Ashley Poynton at Mater Private who looked at my MRIs, and got me in for an epidural within a couple of weeks. Although he is still fairly brief, he is straight to the point, and will answer questions you may have, whilst being honest. Next epidural in a couple of weeks as first didn't work for me, and then we are to consider surgery.

main thing is to take anti-inflammatories when needed, painkillers when needed (but don't rely on them, some pain is a good thing i believe as it stops you over-exerting yourself), keep active (walking, pilates etc) and when things get bad, lay on your stomach on the sofa or floor to allow gravity to help (it really does help!).

dannyo666

Rant1 wrote: »

My Doc got me an appointment to see an orthopedic surgeon in the Mater hospital after I had an MRI. Waited 4 hours to see the dastard. He told me to do a few simple movements and then sat there smiling to himself, after an uncomfortable minute or two he basically told me to run along and don't be wasting his time with such trivial matters. Come back to me when your foocked is what I think he meant. Was left to my own devices after that.

Just my experience though, I'm not suggesting that other people don't bother.

Get a second opinion and a third if neccesery,i know moneys tight but its worth it.If your on medical card beg,lie,play every game and p**s every gp,consultant off until your taken seriously.Only way to do it imo with spinal injuries if you dont limp but are in agony.I know for a fact med card holders are not being referred to consultants like they should be.

Otherwise youll end up a bitter basterd like me wishing you had done the above earlier

Kick up stink and youl be seen.;)

Rant1

dannyo666 wrote: »

Get a second opinion and a third if neccesery,i know moneys tight but its worth it.If your on medical card beg,lie,play every game and p**s every gp,consultant off until your taken seriously.Only way to do it imo with spinal injuries if you dont limp but are in agony.I know for a fact med card holders are not being referred to consultants like they should be.

Otherwise youll end up a bitter basterd like me wishing you had done the above earlier

Kick up stink and youl be seen.;)

I'm fear its too late as I'm already a bitter bastard

I hear what your saying man but I honestly believe there's nothing they can actually do for me besides prescribe the pills. All the posts on the many forums I've been on have all but confirmed this for me.

I'm at the acceptance stage, just trying to do what I can now to help myself. Only thing I'll get from pestering doctors and waiting months to see consultants is false hope and a few more grey hairs

Couldn't agree with you more about the medical card. When I was going private they were only too happy to refer me here there and everywhere. As soon as I was on the card I got the "cant you just crawl off and die somewhere without making a fuss" vibe.

Cheers man

Rant1

flossie wrote: »

Hi, I am 28 with DDD in L4/5. I currently have an empty 'sac' between the discs and have been in constant discomfort (I won't necessarily say pain as i have a very high pain threshold generally!) and it has severely affected my life - had to give up rowing, running etc and even walking too far aggrivates it, as does driving, sitting, standing etc.

GP referred me to surgeon in Mater Private as she wasn't happy with the way things were progressing. I went along, to a fairly 'respected' surgeon, who looked at my MRIs and said i have the back of a typical 35 year old with a bad back. I explained i wasn't 35, i was 27. He said it 'should' get better in the next 5-7 years, and basically told me to stop whinging. I asked how my quality of life could be improved, as i was eager to start running again. He said he has 60+ year old friends who have bad backs and run marathons. I should take 2 Neurofen before and then after a run and get on with things. I suggested that if i was in pain then surely my body is telling me that something is wrong and it should be looked at. I got glared at. All in all, I was in and out in 10 minutes, not even so much as an examination. I was in tears as i walked out, having paid €230 to be told that.

Went to the GP and said i wasn't happy with what happened. She was mortified, and reassured me that this was an extreme case. She has since referred me to Ashley Poynton at Mater Private who looked at my MRIs, and got me in for an epidural within a couple of weeks. Although he is still fairly brief, he is straight to the point, and will answer questions you may have, whilst being honest. Next epidural in a couple of weeks as first didn't work for me, and then we are to consider surgery.

main thing is to take anti-inflammatories when needed, painkillers when needed (but don't rely on them, some pain is a good thing i believe as it stops you over-exerting yourself), keep active (walking, pilates etc) and when things get bad, lay on your stomach on the sofa or floor to allow gravity to help (it really does help!).

Hey, sorry to here your in such discomfort and its affecting your life so much. Really sucks that you had to give up your sporting activities as well. I know my own days of sport are numbered and I'm really not looking forward to that.

The "fairly 'respected' surgeon" you were referred to sounds like the usual arrogant ****head type that I've encountered so many times. Felt on the verge of tears after a few of these encounters. Absolute C***s. I definitely agree with the pain signals theory. I can usually tell when I'm within a day of breaking down so I use that as my cue to rest up. Doesn't work all the time but has saved me a lot of serious pain.

My phsyio told me not to lie on my stomach . But I never really researched it. Might check it out. Hope your next epidural works for you or at least gives you some relief. Cheers for the advice. Let me know how you get on.

P.s. Maybe some day they will have the technology to rebuild us

mlumley

I am 60 and have suffered from back pains scince lifting a manhole cover when I was 18. It went from a slipped disc (no such thing realy) to in later stages DDD. the only way to cure it I am told is an operation to take out the disc and take chippings off your hip and place then around the vertibrea where the disc was removed from. My gp advises me not to go for it. Didnt question him on why, I have heard this from others who have had it done. Most say that you are to lay still for weeks to let the gtraft take. I just put up with it.
Do not take pain killers for longer than you have to. I took Sopadol for years and was addicted to them, had head aches when I didnt take them. So decided to stop taking them and came off them over 2 months. Had an accident on my motor bike and am noe taking capake, and will have to bear the pain so I dont become addicted to them as well.
Not a lot you can do except try to find ways of managing the pain.
Dont laugh, but, I find a few cans of beer relax me enough to mask the pain and discomfort. Not too many mind, you cant get them on a medical card.
Talking of which, if you have a long term illness, you might be able to get one while working.
Good luck with it.

flossie

I came across this today......

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1388881/How-jab-gel-surgery-free-solution-bad-back.html

Perhaps there is some hope out there for us!

What i have found interesting though reading through various websites, boards etc. is that there are such different views of what is 'good' for different conditions. Seems you could go to 10 different people and get different advice each time. Makes life very confusing for us all doesn't it! :rolleyes:

flossie

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

Swim x2 per day , take maxilief is the way to cope was told. spinal fusion a no-no. There is an alternative procedure called disc replacement (using implants). not performed in this country.

Voodoo, I have been told that if you swim you need to ensure your technique is spot on as you can stress other parts of your back and neck. Spinal fusion can be effective but you lose some mobility in the area and it can result in accelerated degeneration iof the surrounding areas. Disc replacement IS available in this country (I'm being considered if my next epidural isn't successful) but as the long term effects aren't kinown it isn't used as much.....

Voodoo_rasher

flossie wrote: »

Voodoo, I have been told that if you swim you need to ensure your technique is spot on as you can stress other parts of your back and neck. Spinal fusion can be effective but you lose some mobility in the area and it can result in accelerated degeneration iof the surrounding areas. Disc replacement IS available in this country (I'm being considered if my next epidural isn't successful) but as the long term effects aren't kinown it isn't used as much.....

Where can disc replacement be had here? Public or Private don't matter. with thanks.

flossie

Voodoo, I am in the private system, at the Mater Private hospital. It's being discussed as an option for me, and I must say that I'm swinging that way

Hope this helps,

Floss.

thehamo

Hey. Being the one who started this thread (not that I remember) I was in exactly the same boat as every one here. Go for a run, can't walk for 2 weeks after etc etc. Got an MRI and turns out I had two herniated discs and stress fractures in my spine. I've been doing a thing called non surgical spinal decompression. It's after doing me the world of good I have started cycling again long distances without a bother. I'm going to try running again in a week or two. All in all my quality of life has nothing but sky rocketed since I've done this. I'm always very cautious about recommending things but what I will say is it definitely worked for me:)

Hal Emmerich

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXIezNArqMY

Hal Emmerich

flossie wrote: »

Voodoo, I have been told that if you swim you need to ensure your technique is spot on as you can stress other parts of your back and neck. Spinal fusion can be effective but you lose some mobility in the area and it can result in accelerated degeneration iof the surrounding areas. Disc replacement IS available in this country (I'm being considered if my next epidural isn't successful) but as the long term effects aren't kinown it isn't used as much.....

I'd have to check but I'm fairly sure it's been available here since the '80s. Near sure someone I know was offered it but it was £10,000 per disc which made the decision very easy (not a chance).

It's definitely available here though anyway.

DonalN

It's been mentioned already, but the Pilates did wonders for me(DDD sufferer). Lost a bit of weight off the belly, and I do regular stretching during the day. Also a couple of swims a week, and a lot more careful when lifting anything, or even climbing out of the car.

That non-surgical spinal decompression stuff looks interesting. Never heard if it before until this thread. Thanks for that. Will look into it more.

thehamo

DonalN wrote: »

It's been mentioned already, but the Pilates did wonders for me(DDD sufferer). Lost a bit of weight off the belly, and I do regular stretching during the day. Also a couple of swims a week, and a lot more careful when lifting anything, or even climbing out of the car.

That non-surgical spinal decompression stuff looks interesting. Never heard if it before until this thread. Thanks for that. Will look into it more.

Im going to try out a pilates class now that my spine is much better to try and stableise it and prevent another injury. There is a lot of information out there about the decompression. I had my doubts about it before I went, but surgery wasnt an option for me and I wasnt going down the pain management route, i.e. epidurals. Its not cheap, but compared to surgery if public it probably works out cheaper or similar price. I didnt feel any real effect until about 15 sessions in but now ive turned a corner completely.

Giant Kiwi

flossie wrote: »

She has since referred me to Ashley Poynton at Mater Private who looked at my MRIs, and got me in for an epidural within a couple of weeks. Although he is still fairly brief, he is straight to the point, and will answer questions you may have, whilst being honest. Next epidural in a couple of weeks as first didn't work for me, and then we are to consider surgery.

main thing is to take anti-inflammatories when needed, painkillers when needed (but don't rely on them, some pain is a good thing i believe as it stops you over-exerting yourself), keep active (walking, pilates etc) and when things get bad, lay on your stomach on the sofa or floor to allow gravity to help (it really does help!).

I agree with Flossie.
I suffered for close to 4 years with Degenerative Disc Collapse at L4-L5 / L5-S1. I'm only 32.
I tried Osteopaths, Physios, Acupuncture and it feels like every other person who said they could 'fix' me.

Ashley Poynton tried epidurals and when they didn't work he decided to fuse my back.

I had the surgery 3 months ago and have 6x 55mm x 7.5mm screws with 2 rods holding my spine together.

Best thing ever!! The pain I had before surgery was gone in 2 days and I'm now walking as far as I want not how far my back wants.

The anti-inflammatories helped as did the pain killers but I take them on the odd occasion now. I find lying on my side with a pillow between my knees the most comfortable position.

Good luck to you guys who are still living with this.

Hope you can find relief soon.

flossie

Hi Kiwi,

Great to hear that! Out of interest, do you mid me asking how long it took you to recover from the surgery, and back to fairly normal routine? One thing that scares the bejaysus out of me is having to take something like 3 months out of work following a procedure - I'm not sure mentally I could cope! Any complications that you suffered?

Cheers,

Floss.

Giant Kiwi

Hi Floss,

My surgery was on the 10th of March this year.
I'm still out of work as of today but awaiting an Occupational Health appointment to give me a fitness to work cert to return next week. Fingers crossed.
I am 6' 6' so getting back to a normal routine has taken a while for things like cooking dinners and doing the dishes after as I have to bend a bit to reach the sink.
As for cleaning found the house I'm still banned from vacuuming and sweeping.
I have a physical job so my gp wouldn't sign me in till I've had the recommended 3 months off. I was told if I had an office job it would be 6 weeks.
I have tried to keep my mind occupied and learnt a couple of new skills that aren't overly taxing on the body.
My fiance has been an absolute trojan in making sure I do my exercises from the hospital physio and walking walking walking.

As for complications, nothing!! I followed MR Poyntons rules to the letter and haven't suffered too greatly. I was told before surgery that the fitter and healthier I am, the quicker the recovery. Not too great a hardship as I used to play rugby until a few years ago and managed to stay fairly fit with my job.

My biggest problem has been dealing with the fact I have to take things slowly and not get too far ahead of myself. I've always been fairly active.

I hope this helps Floss.

Let me know if you need to know anything.

Giant Kiwi

Hal Emmerich

Giant Kiwi wrote: »

Hi Floss,

My surgery was on the 10th of March this year.
I'm still out of work as of today but awaiting an Occupational Health appointment to give me a fitness to work cert to return next week. Fingers crossed.
I am 6' 6' so getting back to a normal routine has taken a while for things like cooking dinners and doing the dishes after as I have to bend a bit to reach the sink.
As for cleaning found the house I'm still banned from vacuuming and sweeping.
I have a physical job so my gp wouldn't sign me in till I've had the recommended 3 months off. I was told if I had an office job it would be 6 weeks.
I have tried to keep my mind occupied and learnt a couple of new skills that aren't overly taxing on the body.
My fiance has been an absolute trojan in making sure I do my exercises from the hospital physio and walking walking walking.

As for complications, nothing!! I followed MR Poyntons rules to the letter and haven't suffered too greatly. I was told before surgery that the fitter and healthier I am, the quicker the recovery. Not too great a hardship as I used to play rugby until a few years ago and managed to stay fairly fit with my job.

My biggest problem has been dealing with the fact I have to take things slowly and not get too far ahead of myself. I've always been fairly active.

I hope this helps Floss.

Let me know if you need to know anything.

Giant Kiwi

Can I ask what's the long term prognosis on your surgery?

Giant Kiwi

Long term I will be no different than anybody else.
I'm heading to New Zealand in October and I joked with the surgeons about bungy jumping and all manner of crazy kiwi sports and he replied ' I don't see why not, your back will be stronger than everybody else's':D

royaler83

Giant Kiwi wrote: »

Hi Floss,

My surgery was on the 10th of March this year.
I'm still out of work as of today but awaiting an Occupational Health appointment to give me a fitness to work cert to return next week. Fingers crossed.
I am 6' 6' so getting back to a normal routine has taken a while for things like cooking dinners and doing the dishes after as I have to bend a bit to reach the sink.
As for cleaning found the house I'm still banned from vacuuming and sweeping.
I have a physical job so my gp wouldn't sign me in till I've had the recommended 3 months off. I was told if I had an office job it would be 6 weeks.

I have tried to keep my mind occupied and learnt a couple of new skills that aren't overly taxing on the body.
My fiance has been an absolute trojan in making sure I do my exercises from the hospital physio and walking walking walking.

As for complications, nothing!! I followed MR Poyntons rules to the letter and haven't suffered too greatly. I was told before surgery that the fitter and healthier I am, the quicker the recovery. Not too great a hardship as I used to play rugby until a few years ago and managed to stay fairly fit with my job.

My biggest problem has been dealing with the fact I have to take things slowly and not get too far ahead of myself. I've always been fairly active.

I hope this helps Floss.

Let me know if you need to know anything.
Giant Kiwi

Hey Kiwi,

Good to hear your recovering well.

I too have trouble with L 4/5. Had 2 micro discectomies but the disc is still bulging and causing nerve pain down the either leg, back pain and stiffness.

I have a decision to make whether to go ahead and get the spinal fusion done and just wanted to ask a few questions. How are you now as regards bending/reaching ie filling the dishwasher, plugging in a plug, (normal every day tasks) etc. Presuming you were stiff after sitting, what is it like now when getting up in the mornings or getting up after sitting for a while.

I feel if I don't get the disc taken out it will always trouble me. I got the spinal decompression done aswell, eased the pain a bit but still had to go for the op which turned out unsuccesfull aswll.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Cheers

Giant Kiwi

I used to be incredibly stiff if I sat for too long. Now I can sit for quite a while.
It's taken some time though, when I first came out of hospital my GF would have everything at the table for dinner then call me. It was almost a race to finish dinner. 10 minutes the first week then slowly building it up.
I did buy a chair from the back shop.

http://back-shop.com/

If you can take a lecture from the old guy when he's in it's well worth it. I can sit for hours in mine. Not exactly good for getting out and about.

As for household duties, I just finished mopping the kitchen. little bit sore but nothing compared to what it used to be. I can still feel my feet!
Plugging in the vacuum I can just kneel down. It's a long way down for me.
As for the dishwasher... I make my own home brew so washing all the bottles I do sitting down next to the dishwasher on a chair. They're not gonna wash themselves.

I also have 2 extremely active nephews that I spend a good amount of time with. Not so much running around but I manage. Balloon animals help.

As I've said before, everybody gets different results. I guess I'm one of the lucky ones. The pain used to be so awful some days I'd almost be sick. I wouldn't wish it on anyone.
If I had the choice again I would do it in a heartbeat.
I've learnt to do things differently and I'm more conscious of how I move.
My only regret is I don't 'beep' at the airport.

I hope this helps.

GK

k101

thehamo wrote: »

Hey. Being the one who started this thread (not that I remember) I was in exactly the same boat as every one here. Go for a run, can't walk for 2 weeks after etc etc. Got an MRI and turns out I had two herniated discs and stress fractures in my spine. I've been doing a thing called non surgical spinal decompression. It's after doing me the world of good I have started cycling again long distances without a bother. I'm going to try running again in a week or two. All in all my quality of life has nothing but sky rocketed since I've done this. I'm always very cautious about recommending things but what I will say is it definitely worked for me:)

hi i also have hermiated disc, ddd, constant pain, tried various different things no joy, where did you go for the spinal decompresssion as i will try anything at this stage, ta

flossie

Just thought i would give an update on my injection last week.....

I arrived for an epidural, then was told that Mr Poynton had changed his mind and wanted me to have my facet (sp?) joint injected. That involved 2 injections....I won't lie, they hurt like hell, and I have a pretty high pain threshold! Extremely stiff/sore/nauseated on Friday, still tender on Saturday, but yesterday mornign i woke up and i was a lot less stiff that i have been in a long time. Today is the same, even slightly better. I know i shouldn't have but i bent over, my hands got past my knees for the first time in over a year! It's the little things that excite me!

Fingers crossed this will bring some extended period of relief - anybody know how many times they will happily inject if it brings relief? Can it be a regular occurence?

Happy Monday everyone!

Giant Kiwi

Great to hear you're feeling better.

I felt worse after the facet injections. I felt like rubbish for about a week.

I met a guy at the hospital who was having his 12th injection. Had them every 3 months and didn't want surgery.
That's not for me, feeling great and then steadily getting worse over the course of a couple of months. Repeat.

Got my occ health appointment this week.
Fingers crossed they'll let me go back to work.

flossie

Best of luck G-K!:D

I'm hoping that somehow, just somehow, the injection will be a miracle cure :rolleyes: But i'll see hwo long i get out of it! Couldn't believe how painful it was getting them done, and watching it on the x-ray machine is just odd.....I was shaking with the pain, which probably wasn't helping!

thehamo

k101 wrote: »

hi i also have hermiated disc, ddd, constant pain, tried various different things no joy, where did you go for the spinal decompresssion as i will try anything at this stage, ta

Hey. I did it in Citywest Chiropractic. its in the leisure centre there. Its not cheap, you have to do about 20 sessions, works out at about 2g's. but compare that to spinal injections every 3 months/surgery and its not all that bad.

I have been out running the past 2 weeks now. where as before I would run and not be able to walk after, now there is not a bother on me. Even when I get up in the morning. All the stiffness is gone and absolutely no pain what so ever. Its a total turn around in quality of life for me. IL be doing pilates and other exercise to strengthen my core and prevent it ever happening again!

Best of luck with what ever you choose to do!