spray foam insulation

full gas

just a quick one , have seen plenty of ridged insulation fitted badly in roof spaces ,so stated to look around for companys for spray foam insulation ,have spoken to 2 diferent companys ,and to be honest they have just baffled me with numbers and how fantastic there product is ,there prices dont seem to out of my budget ,but with the companys not been in existance to long , any i taking a risk using this product

Cootehill

full gas wrote: »

just a quick one , have seen plenty of ridged insulation fitted badly in roof spaces ,so stated to look around for companys for spray foam insulation ,have spoken to 2 diferent companys ,and to be honest they have just baffled me with numbers and how fantastic there product is ,there prices dont seem to out of my budget ,but with the companys not been in existance to long , any i taking a risk using this product

hey,
I have been looking into this myself the last few weeks and have had the very same experience. Lots of numbers and how good so on so on.
Anyway 1 company keeps been mentioned very highly in regards spray foam - <SNIP>. By all accounts they seem to be the best around at the min and have been in the business a long time.

Mod Edit: Naming a company on thread is against the charter. Please read the charter.

mickdw

Make sure that they have agrement board certificate. Also get approved construction details from them to insure that it is certified for use with your particular roof/felt construction.
It may be the case that you need ventilation via counterbatten on the outside of the felt or some other ventilation detail. From my experience of spray foam installers/salesmen, they dont seem overly worried about where they are asked to spray it and will just take the money and run. They will all state that it is a breathable material but all often slow to come up with the approved details so be careful. It should be an excellent material if used in suitable location with correct details.

Macspower

mickdw wrote: »

Make sure that they have agrement board certificate. Also get approved construction details from them to insure that it is certified for use with your particular roof/felt construction.
It may be the case that you need ventilation via counterbatten on the outside of the felt or some other ventilation detail. From my experience of spray foam installers/salesmen, they dont seem overly worried about where they are asked to spray it and will just take the money and run. They will all state that it is a breathable material but all often slow to come up with the approved details so be careful. It should be an excellent material if used in suitable location with correct details.

I know I'm late with this one but the above post is perfectly correct.

Firstly I'm in the spray foam insulation business so as to disclose my interests.

There are a lot of companies out there at the minute doing spray foam but it's all about the Irish Agrement Cert from the NSAI. Many of them will claim all sorts of certification but ask for the Irish Agrement cert.
Also if they suggest spraying directly onto your felt even with the agrement cert then your job is not certified.

If it is going in your attic it also needs to be a breathable foam.

Gulliver

Macspower wrote: »

I know I'm late with this one but the above post is perfectly correct.

Firstly I'm in the spray foam insulation business so as to disclose my interests.

There are a lot of companies out there at the minute doing spray foam but it's all about the Irish Agrement Cert from the NSAI. Many of them will claim all sorts of certification but ask for the Irish Agrement cert.
Also if they suggest spraying directly onto your felt even with the agrement cert then your job is not certified.

If it is going in your attic it also needs to be a breathable foam.

So out of interest, what is the correct procedure here? Is there a membrane or something applied under the felt?

Lemlin

Gulliver wrote: »

So out of interest, what is the correct procedure here? Is there a membrane or something applied under the felt?

The fella who spray foamed mine told me that most people tend to put the membrane on after the rafters are foamed.

Macspower

Lemlin wrote: »

The fella who spray foamed mine told me that most people tend to put the membrane on after the rafters are foamed.

this sounds like it is an air tightness membrane and a different thing. An air tightness membrane is not required if an independent Air tightness test has been carried out on the foam.

Macspower

Gulliver wrote: »

So out of interest, what is the correct procedure here? Is there a membrane or something applied under the felt?

According to the NSAI Agrement cert a special vent card or counterbatton and sarking must be fitted between the felt and the foam leaving a 25 mm gap . This gap is nothing to do with breathability but to do with the expansion of the foam pushing the felt and causing water traps.

here is a diagram from the Agrement cert. I have blanked out the company name.

Also below is a diagram of the vent card I speak of and a picture of the vent card when fitted with some foam.



Vent card


vent card during spraying


vent card before spraying. As you can see it is fitted between the rafters and tight to the felt leaving a 25mm gap behind it


foam being applied to the vent card

paddy147

So what about a mid 1950 house then?

Does it need this vent card stuff??

Does the spray foam company supply this "vent card" thing then,or is that a hidden extra to the cost of the foam insulation???

heinbloed

Thanks for this detailed posting, Macspower !

So the heaving of the existing felt is avoided. Something that other cowboys in the trade wheren't even aware of. Or at least they claimed that.

About the foam's breathability: is that still necessary with the shown sample ( your pictures) ? Loadbearing timber protection, sweating, moisture locking-in ?

This was good one, thanks again!

Macspower

paddy147 wrote: »

So what about a mid 1950 house then?

Does it need this vent card stuff??

Does the spray foam company supply this "vent card" thing then,or is that a hidden extra to the cost of the foam insulation???

Some of the older houses with no felt and just slate may not require the vent card.

Some customers opt not to go for it and spray directly to the felt. This will not be certified but to some the certification is not important.

It is never a hidden cost on our behalf and we either fit it or give the customer the option of fitting it themselves. You will not hear it mentionted by many companies as there are only 2 foams certified at present by the nsai agrement.

Macspower

heinbloed wrote: »

Thanks for this detailed posting, Macspower !

So the heaving of the existing felt is avoided. Something that other cowboys in the trade wheren't even aware of. Or at least they claimed that.

About the foam's breathability: is that still necessary with the shown sample ( your pictures) ? Loadbearing timber protection, sweating, moisture locking-in ?

This was good one, thanks again!

Your welcome

The breathability of the foam is as important as ever. In an attic it is essential to use open cell foam. And again look for certified back up of the % claims

Dotsie~tmp

Be careful with this stuff if you have recessed down-lighters or other recessed gear. Some contractors have caused fires by spraying willy nilly.

ShiverinEskimo

Is there anything else to consider if using this spray foam method on a dormer bungalow where the rooms are in the roof-space?

Gulliver

Macspower wrote: »

According to the NSAI Agrement cert a special vent card or counterbatton and sarking must be fitted between the felt and the foam leaving a 25 mm gap . This gap is nothing to do with breathability but to do with the expansion of the foam pushing the felt and causing water traps.

here is a diagram from the Agrement cert. I have blanked out the company name.

Also below is a diagram of the vent card I speak of and a picture of the vent card when fitted with some foam.

<Not quoting images>

Thanks, that's very interesting about the vent card. From the way the foam finishes a bit proud of the rafters I take it this only for use in an exposed attic space, you couldn't do it in a dormer with slab/insulated slab underneath?

Macspower

Dotsie~tmp wrote: »

Be careful with this stuff if you have recessed down-lighters or other recessed gear. Some contractors have caused fires by spraying willy nilly.

hope you don't speak from experience dotsie !

You are of course correct. The agrement cert shows clearly how this should be done. Downlighters must be covered with a thing like a flowerpot if you are spraying on the flat of the ceiling. I would however prefer your statement read be careful of who you get to do the job... the spray foam (stuff) itself is fantastic insulation but only if installed correctly to strict guidelines.

I'll post a pic here tomorrow when I'm in the office of the correct procedure

edited: I found a copy of the agrement cert.. here is a direct copy from our cert of the correct procedure for spraying onto downlighters.

Macspower

Gulliver wrote: »

Thanks, that's very interesting about the vent card. From the way the foam finishes a bit proud of the rafters I take it this only for use in an exposed attic space, you couldn't do it in a dormer with slab/insulated slab underneath?

Where it finishes proud like this in the attic this is perfect however if you wish to slab it like in a dormer section then the foam is shaved off flush with the rafters with a foam saw.. I suppose a pic is the best thing.. let me see if I have one

ok here is one shaved.


and here is one in the process of being shaved

Macspower

ShiverinEskimo wrote: »

Is there anything else to consider if using this spray foam method on a dormer bungalow where the rooms are in the roof-space?

yeah there are a good few things to consider. Prob too many to go into in detail here. but the ones that spring to mind. The depth of your rafter will determine how much foam you can get in there. If you cant get enough depth to get your required U value here you may require an insulated slab as well.

If it's a retrofit then there is often access problems in a dormer in getting into the crawl space. Again in a retrofit you will probably only be able to do the attic and crawl space without removing slabs. Although there should be insulation already behind these.

Pm me and send me some pics if you want particular advice on a particular job

Gulliver

Macspower wrote: »

Where it finishes proud like this in the attic this is perfect however if you wish to slab it like in a dormer section then the foam is shaved off flush with the rafters with a foam saw.. I suppose a pic is the best thing.. let me see if I have one

ok here is one shaved.

Looks good shaved (giggity) Nice neat job. Does the installer shave (giggity) the foam or does the client?

Macspower

generally the installer does the shaving using a special fine tooth foam saw. however if the customer is not ready to slab in the near future it is better to leave the skin on it and shave later. It can always be done with a hand saw later.
EG we had a guy last week that got an attic done and intends in the future to make it a dormer. We just left it proud and ready for shaving. He can do this when he decides to slab at a later date.

forgive syntax and spelling I'm currently fighting with a new windows7 phone!

Mitch Buchannon

There is some fantastic info on this thread. I may be doing this in the near future so I'll be watching this thread for sure.

Thanks for all the info so far guys.

paddy147

Macspower.....Are you based in Dublin?

Id be interested to get a quote off you for the attic in my house.:)

Macspower

paddy147 wrote: »

Macspower.....Are you based in Dublin?

Id be interested to get a quote off you for the attic in my house.:)

we're based in Kildare but operate nationwide.

I'll send you a PM

paddy147

Macspower wrote: »

we're based in Kildare but operate nationwide.

I'll send you a PM

Thanks.

Awaiting PM.:)

moan 77

Hi All,

I got this foam sprayed two weeks ago, cracking job can feel heat already and i've no heating on and wont for a good while yet. If ya want to know who i used just pm me for the answer.

V6DEC

Macspower - can you please PM me your details and cost per Sqm.

Moan 77 - Can you also PM me I'd like to know who you used and cost etc.

Cheers.

gman2k

Macspower wrote: »

we're based in Kildare but operate nationwide.

I'll send you a PM

Mac, what is your NSAI cert number? I don't see a link to it on your site? (BTW I'm not doubting you)

Macspower

gman2k wrote: »

Mac, what is your NSAI cert number? I don't see a link to it on your site? (BTW I'm not doubting you)

apologies. It will be as a downloadable PDF on our new site. PM me an email address and I'll send you a copy.. I've PMed the cert number to you.

Macspower

V6DEC wrote: »

Macspower - can you please PM me your details and cost per Sqm.

Moan 77 - Can you also PM me I'd like to know who you used and cost etc.

Cheers.

On it's way

kevin10387

Hi guys! Its a good thing top be a part of this informative thread. Thanks a lot for all that you have discussed so far in this thread.

ShiverinEskimo

Macspower wrote: »

On it's way

I'll have that PM too if it's going.

MonkieSocks

Anyone got a rough estimate on how much to do the attic and walls on a semi detched average sized house.

Macspower

MonkieSocks wrote: »

Anyone got a rough estimate on how much to do the attic and walls on a semi detched average sized house.

The last 3 bed semi we did cost around 1500 euro but the one before cost 2500 for a similar looking house. What I really mean is that it depends on a number of factors. Would really need to see it to give an accurate price...

they are however normally an easy job done in a few hours

Poor Uncle Tom

I have removed some one on one business stuff from this thread. The thread should not be used as a diary for a specific business, or to promote or denigrate a specific business, all that should be kept to PM or email please.......:)

paddy147

Can I ask if there is a grant available from the SEAI for spray foam insulation of attic spaces?:

Also would the gable walls of the house be covered in the foam and also would the wallplate be sealed/covered in the spray foam insulation?

Thanks.

Macspower

paddy147 wrote: »

Can I ask if there is a grant available from the SEAI for spray foam insulation of attic spaces?:

Also would the gable walls of the house be covered in the foam and also would the wallplate be sealed/covered in the spray foam insulation?

Thanks.

Firstly a grant is available but it is minimal and outdated... attic is worth 250 euro. however in the current climate we're lucky to get anything I suppose.

To do the job correctly the gable walls should be sprayed and your wallplate should be filled.

paddy147

Macspower wrote: »

Firstly a grant is available but it is minimal and outdated... attic is worth 250 euro. however in the current climate we're lucky to get anything I suppose.

To do the job correctly the gable walls should be sprayed and your wallplate should be filled.

Thanks.:)

Jeda

Hi Maxpower, I'm also interested in getting this done, could you pm me your details when you get a chance...

Macspower

Jeda wrote: »

Hi Maxpower, I'm also interested in getting this done, could you pm me your details when you get a chance...

I'll gladly send you some info Jeda,

In future guys , while I appreciate any business that might some our way by means of this thread, I only intended to give information for boards users about spray foam in general, including the benefits and pitfalls of the product and the industry.

please just PM me for any private details or prices and we'll try and keep this as an information thread, as per boards rules and mods requests.

Mods feel free to tidy up any non infomation threads..

paddy147

Both my attics are getting done in spray foam in 2 weeks time.

I will post a thread with pics of the instalation process.:)

sas

Macspower wrote: »

this sounds like it is an air tightness membrane and a different thing. An air tightness membrane is not required if an independent Air tightness test has been carried out on the foam.

Has an independent air tightness test been carried out on your product?

If so have you then used it on houses aiming for high airtightness levels without the membrane? What results did they obtain on the blower door?

As a product I find it fascinating. No cutting insulation around pipes, awkward spaces filled perfectly, self supporting (no batten underneath required), fast installation. If only I could get over my suspicion of all things new...

Macspower

sas wrote: »

Has an independent air tightness test been carried out on your product?

If so have you then used it on houses aiming for high airtightness levels without the membrane? What results did they obtain on the blower door?

As a product I find it fascinating. No cutting insulation around pipes, awkward spaces filled perfectly, self supporting (no batten underneath required), fast installation. If only I could get over my suspicion of all things new...

PM me an email address and I will send you a copy of the Air Tightness Test

paddy147

Can I just ask here.....

I noticed today,that I have 2 Nymj electric cables and a cold water pipe running through the the roof beams/joists into the ensuite.

Can they be covered over with the spray foam???

And does this mean they they wont rot or deteriate over time (thinking down the line about any future rewires or replumbs in years to come).

Thanks.:)

Carlow52

My advice is that the cables are best sleeved to allow cooling in air.

Its the required practice for other forms of insulation so I dont see this as being any different.
I use 30mm black flexible conduit and split it with a strong scissors and sleeve the cable that way, taping it back into shape- this is assuming u dont take it off at one end and push it through

paddy147

Carlow52 wrote: »

My advice is that the cables are best sleeved to allow cooling in air.

Its the required practice for other forms of insulation so I dont see this as being any different.
I use 30mm black flexible conduit and split it with a strong scissors and sleeve the cable that way, taping it back into shape- this is assuming u dont take it off at one end and push it through

Thanks,what about the copper plumbing pipe?

Is it ok for that to be covered in with spray foam insulation?

Thanks.:)

Carlow52

paddy147 wrote: »

Thanks,what about the copper plumbing pipe?

Is it ok for that to be covered in with spray foam insulation?

Thanks.:)

Copper pipe will be fine as long as u are sure all covered joints are DA tight where D might stand for duck

ps 17/4

if u have a long run of qualplex or similiar which carries hot water its better to sleeve it as it needs to expand

Macspower

paddy147 wrote: »

Can I just ask here.....

I noticed today,that I have 2 Nymj electric cables and a cold water pipe running through the the roof beams/joists into the ensuite.

Can they be covered over with the spray foam???

And does this mean they they wont rot or deteriate over time (thinking down the line about any future rewires or replumbs in years to come).

Thanks.:)

The foam itself will have no effect whatsoever on your electrical cables. It wont cause overheating or anything like that. However to facilitate future repairs it is best to have it in a conduit. If it's already in place I wouldn't worry too much about it. It can be safely sprayed over without any adverse effect... If you ever need to get to it the foam can always be removed easily..

As regards the water pipes as mentioned joints should be checked for leaks first and repaired before spraying. Don't worry about expansion as the foam is not rigid and will expand/contract as necessary. If they carry hot water the foam will help keep it hot.

DaveWalsh2020

Your better off putting in the spacer card as it allows air flow along timbers. This airflow will take the moisture out of the timbers and keep them healthy. There are different types of spacer cards, some are breathable others are not. The bigger the vemtilation gap the better for timbers, its healthier for them.

You can spray out past the timbers and cut the foam back leaving a nice full fill finish. Then fix your thermally lined plaster board to the timber and its gonna be warm.

In the dormer crawl space you could bring the spacer card out 25 - 75mm from the felt and spray onto the card and in front of the timber insulating the front of the timbers to stop them conducting heat out of the area. The timbers will breath into the ventilation gap. open cell foam breath (permeates) better than the timbers.

NSAI agrement cert is good and so is European certification.

DaveWalsh2020

I am an insulation airtightness Ber Contractor I use to be a Building Contractor. I do all insulation systems and the spray foam is very popular. Some more info is required here.

Its a 50mm gap for ventilation not 25mm.


The 50mm gap.
This detail is for ventialtion not " sarking felts or pushing felts etc ". This ventilation allows the timbers permeate into the ventilation gap. Keeping them healthy and allowing them breathe as we say. Air flow allows the timers permeate into the ventilation gap keeping them healthy. The spray foam ventialtion card or spacer card is to maintain airflow and ventilation. Felts may sark 10mm.

Foam may be sprayed direct when there is a sarking timber installed under a felt that is counter battoned for ventilation and where a felt only has been counter batton on the tiles/slate side of the felt for ventilation.

All older houses should always have cards installed as the insulation system should be independant.

The spray foam requires a vapour control layer not airtightness membrane.

The density of spray foam is in the ranges of 7 to 20 and the density off building timbers can be 300 - 600 +/- Permability is not a problem there may be other things to watch out for.

cyfac

DaveWalsh2020 wrote: »

I am an insulation airtightness Ber Contractor I use to be a Building Contractor. I do all insulation systems and the spray foam is very popular. Some more info is required here.

Its a 50mm gap for ventilation not 25mm.


The 50mm gap.
This detail is for ventialtion not " sarking felts or pushing felts etc ". This ventilation allows the timbers permeate into the ventilation gap. Keeping them healthy and allowing them breathe as we say. Air flow allows the timers permeate into the ventilation gap keeping them healthy. The spray foam ventialtion card or spacer card is to maintain airflow and ventilation. Felts may sark 10mm.

Foam may be sprayed direct when there is a sarking timber installed under a felt that is counter battoned for ventilation and where a felt only has been counter batton on the tiles/slate side of the felt for ventilation.

All older houses should always have cards installed as the insulation system should be independant.

The spray foam requires a vapour control layer not airtightness membrane.

The density of spray foam is in the ranges of 7 to 20 and the density off building timbers can be 300 - 600 +/- Permability is not a problem there may be other things to watch out for.

Hi dave could you explain why an air tight membrane cant be used instead of a vapour barrier please

DaveWalsh2020

Macspower wrote: »

The foam itself will have no effect whatsoever on your electrical cables. It wont cause overheating or anything like that.

Big electric cables or 6 core cables in the attic, like shower and oven cables and the likes do heat up with insulation and there has to be a 75mm gap around it for safety. This is an SEAI requirement that is enforced with vigour...............