Is anybody here making money from farming?

deise toffee

Im milking roughly 75 cows,but what im paying out every month in costs is currently exceeding what im bringing in.bad times:(

Muckit

deise toffee wrote: »

Im milking roughly 75 cows,but what im paying out every month in costs is currently exceeding what im bringing in.bad times:(

I can sympathise with you deise toffee

Isn't it hard lines that a person like yourself could be milking and managing that many cows and not be able to make a half decent living. No wonder so many farmers are disillusioned.

If it were any other business, say for example a grocery shop, you wouldn't have to be as efficient or as big as TESCO to make a living, a small newsagent the size of a matchbox can turn a tidy profit.

In contrast, with farming, especially in Ireland you have to be at the top of your game just to make ANY return. There's something wrong somewhere

maidhc

Muckit wrote: »

In contrast, with farming, especially in Ireland you have to be at the top of your game just to make ANY return. There's something wrong somewhere

Everyone feels the same about their business to be honest. I'm a solicitor, and things are no better.

deise toffee

Muckit wrote: »

I can sympathise with you deise toffee

Isn't it hard lines that a person like yourself could be milking and managing that many cows and not be able to make a half decent living. No wonder so many farmers are disillusioned.

If it were any other business, say for example a grocery shop, you wouldn't have to be as efficient or as big as TESCO to make a living, a small newsagent the size of a matchbox can turn a tidy profit.

In contrast, with farming, especially in Ireland you have to be at the top of your game just to make ANY return. There's something wrong somewhere

Its hard going for sure,might have to consider selling white powder instead of white liquid;)

kay 9

maidhc wrote: »

Everyone feels the same about their business to be honest. I'm a solicitor, and things are no better.

+1, I'm a plumber and it's hard enough to even keep food on the table at times compared to bygone years when trades were like gold:rolleyes:

deise toffee

maidhc wrote: »

Everyone feels the same about their business to be honest. I'm a solicitor, and things are no better.

Are things as bad in the legal world?isnt there always somebody to defend?letters to be sent.Not doubting you at all but:D

sh1tstirrer

kay 9 wrote: »

+1, I'm a plumber and it's hard enough to even keep food on the table at times compared to bygone years when trades were like gold:rolleyes:

My brother recently but in a solid fuel stove it was a big job as he had to put down new piping and installed a stainless steel cylinder. Labour alone cost over 2k. He rang about 10 plumbers before he got one that was interested in doing the job. They weren't worried about putting food on the table.

reilig

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

My brother recently but in a solid fuel stove it was a big job as he had to put down new piping and installed a stainless steel cylinder. Labour alone cost over 2k. He rang about 10 plumbers before he got one that was interested in doing the job. They weren't worried about putting food on the table.

That's a stark comparison to my next door neighbour who plumbed my house - 2000 square ft, soild fuel range, log gasifying boiler, 3 bathrooms, kitchen and utility sinks - all the usual. Total cost EUR3K. He was delighted to get the work.

maidhc

deise toffee wrote: »

Are things as bad in the legal world?isnt there always somebody to defend?letters to be sent.Not doubting you at all but:D

Massive PI insurance, rates, law society fees and vicious competition!

There has been a huge drop in property work obviously, family law (less money to divide) and even criminal (less buckos getting drunk on a sat night!).

Thankfully I am more a farmer than a solicitor, so when the computer/copier/heating and anything else breaks I get out the the vice grips and start ripping.

sh1tstirrer

reilig wrote: »

That's a stark comparison to my next door neighbour who plumbed my house - 2000 square ft, soild fuel range, log gasifying boiler, 3 bathrooms, kitchen and utility sinks - all the usual. Total cost EUR3K. He was delighted to get the work.

What part of the country are you? My brother is in north Cork.

whelan1

deise toffee wrote: »

Im milking roughly 75 cows,but what im paying out every month in costs is currently exceeding what im bringing in.bad times:(

i think we are still paying for last years crap prices... bills are taking longer to clear.. i know the price of milk is up but so are the inputs.. also banks aren't helping... i have a meeting with bank man tomorrow:eek:

kay 9

sh1tstirrer wrote: »

My brother recently but in a solid fuel stove it was a big job as he had to put down new piping and installed a stainless steel cylinder. Labour alone cost over 2k. He rang about 10 plumbers before he got one that was interested in doing the job. They weren't worried about putting food on the table.

Bit costly if I may say so, ye lot in Cavan must be loaded:D I'm doing one at the moment and I wont see a 1/3 of that:rolleyes: About 900-1200 is the run of mill depending on extras and changes. 2k, wish I was based up there. Buy the way alot of lads won't bother touching solid fuel as it's dangerous if done wrong. So if it's safe and done right, 2k is money well spent in my view. Better than gettin a cowboy to charge 1500 and the stove to go through the roof.

kay 9

reilig wrote: »

That's a stark comparison to my next door neighbour who plumbed my house - 2000 square ft, soild fuel range, log gasifying boiler, 3 bathrooms, kitchen and utility sinks - all the usual. Total cost EUR3K. He was delighted to get the work.

I done same for 2k about 2 years ago;) Believe it or not there is more work in stoves than peeple realise. DOing a normal fit out like rads and sinks etc is fast to run piping, but usually stoves there is alot of opening and chasing and slow work hence the labour costs. Takes as long as to do a whole house almost.

ihatetractors

Went back in black to some safe degree there last Aug/Sept. When i was home at week end heard whispers of tradin the tractor (OH CHRIST I HOPE 2011 ISN'T A FLOOP) O_o

5live

I could sing the same song. The hangover of debt from last year was horrendous. A guy from a few miles away wont get an income till next may. He is living on cattle sales and any bit of money that is left after the co-op gets paid goes to the bank. There is always someone worse off. A bit off thread i know but, does anybody know what would happen if our banks were refused funding from EU central bank? No overdrafts or loans? I would be in deep deep sh1t until this time next year. I could manage then but now....:eek:

candor

Is it a case that there are loans to be paid also? Morgage etc? Loans are a neccessary evil but I try to avoid as much as I can.

whelan1

i think it all goes back to the fwms ... that was the start of all this financial woe

candor

whelan1 wrote: »

i think it all goes back to the fwms ... that was the start of all this financial woe

Certainly added a lot of expense to the whole thing, there was never value for money with prices adjusted according to grant levels etc.

Pharaoh1

Anyone go to those Teagasc/Leader/Options meetings recently. I was at one this week and a Teagasc guy gave all sorts of data on improved gross margins in 2010 etc..
No mention of the word profit at all and I mean proper profit after all charges are taken into account and a labour charge. Basically your accounting profit.
In fairness the meeting had plenty of positives to do with supports for on farm business/education etc...

Bottom line is for the majority the way to make money from farming is to have a big SFP and make sure not to lose it.
Also I don't think the income shock from the loss of REPS for many is fully appreciated.

pakalasa

5live wrote: »

...... A bit off thread i know but, does anybody know what would happen if our banks were refused funding from EU central bank? No overdrafts or loans? I would be in deep deep sh1t until this time next year. I could manage then but now....:eek:

I'm no expert but I find it hard to believe that banks would refuse loans to Dairy farmers to carry them over the winter, untill the milk starts flowing again. Provided you have yor house in order - doing all the sensible things, you should have no worries.
All the economists say it - the only way out of this current recession is to export our way out. That makes farming a lot more imporatant than what it was during the mad days of the Celtic Tiger.

whelan1

pakalasa wrote: »

I'm no expert but I find it hard to believe that banks would refuse loans to Dairy farmers to carry them over the winter, untill the milk starts flowing again. Provided you have yor house in order - doing all the sensible things, you should have no worries.
All the economists say it - the only way out of this current recession is to export our way out. That makes farming a lot more imporatant than what it was during the mad days of the Celtic Tiger.

just back from bank... its a no go area, come back in 6 months :mad::mad:wont give me a penny:cool:

pakalasa

They wont even give you a loan to tie you over. :eek:

Do you have a lot of debt as things stand - sorry for asking, but trying to make sense of all this?

Tora Bora

whelan1 wrote: »

just back from bank... its a no go area, come back in 6 months :mad::mad:wont give me a penny:cool:

Holey moley, Whealan, with amount of time you spend talking to some one or other in the bank(s), I'm surprised any cow gets milked:eek:
If I was one of your cows, I'd be down to one functioning quarter

whelan1

pakalasa wrote: »

They wont even give you a loan to tie you over. :eek:

Do you have a lot of debt as things stand - sorry for asking, but trying to make sense of all this?

i dont have massive debts but need money to buy in some cows/heifers as i lost alot last year - not my fault- i have the sheds /quota/land to milk 20 more cows and he said no...i have never missed a payment ever , said to come back in 6 months :eek: pretty pissed off....

whelan1

Tora Bora wrote: »

Holey moley, Whealan, with amount of time you spend talking to some one or other in the bank(s), I'm surprised any cow gets milked:eek:
If I was one of your cows, I'd be down to one functioning quarter

:D i am of the mind that if i could just sort the financial end of things out before they go crazy i am better off, bank man doesnt see it that way unfortunately

DagneyTaggart

Retailers, processors, factories, tradesmen, feed suppliers and the odd farmer and probably not far off that order, too.

The odd farmer being the farmer who is srewdest with feed is where I'd place my bets.

whelan1

Tora Bora wrote: »

Holey moley, Whealan, with amount of time you spend talking to some one or other in the bank(s), I'm surprised any cow gets milked:eek:
If I was one of your cows, I'd be down to one functioning quarter

well did a days work before i saw bankman... milked cows at 6 , dropped kids to school , one of the kids has to be in the hospital every morning this week at 9.30:mad: then dropped him to school and off to bank! relaxing now before i get them from school and do the rest of my work...dont think i will be ringing bankman again for a while... to top it off the bloody drivers door of my car wont close and ended up driving home holding on to it to stop it opening:eek:

snowman707

2010 hasn't been too bad to us (SO far!!!)

an expensive spring due to late growth was compensated by a good back end

milk and sheep returns were well up

we were lucky we bought fertilizer when it was at it's lowest price

HOWEVER !! we overspent a capital investment by about €7k of our original estimate, and certain family circumstances forced another €15k on to our drawings

The answer to OP's query is

No loans

no overdraft

NO MONEY !!!!

we will approach 2011 with caution
and are planning for cuts in headage ,forestry premiium, reps along with added costs like increased taxation, college fees, dearer fuel(diesel) and fertilizer , if milk and sheep price hold we will get by if not it is on to plan B.

(plan B isn't drawn up yet:eek:)

F.D

deise toffee wrote: »

Im milking roughly 75 cows,but what im paying out every month in costs is currently exceeding what im bringing in.bad times:(

Don't want to pry into your business to much but would some of the costs be borrowings/loan repayments? if not i'd hate to see how anybody can make a living if your loan free

bbam

We're on the small side of the farmng scale and up to last year we were loosing money before SFP, we broke even then and this year we'll probably be in the black for the first time in years...
Like many small farms our problem was ploughing on and not actually keeping any books/records at all..

I was discussing with a farming friend a potential change in type of farming and he said I was mad that it wouldn't make money... when I enquired how he was doing his reply.... "don't know and I'd be afraid to count it up"

whelan1

snowman707 wrote: »

2010 hasn't been too bad to us (SO far!!!)

an expensive spring due to late growth was compensated by a good back end

milk and sheep returns were well up

we were lucky we bought fertilizer when it was at it's lowest price

HOWEVER !! we overspent a capital investment by about €7k of our original estimate, and certain family circumstances forced another €15k on to our drawings

The answer to OP's query is

No loans

no overdraft

NO MONEY !!!!

we will approach 2011 with caution
and are planning for cuts in headage ,forestry premiium, reps along with added costs like increased taxation, college fees, dearer fuel(diesel) and fertilizer , if milk and sheep price hold we will get by if not it is on to plan B.

(plan B isn't drawn up yet:eek:)

how long did it take you to be loan free ?

irishh_bob

whelan1 wrote: »

i think it all goes back to the fwms ... that was the start of all this financial woe

worst thing that happened to farmers in a long time , drove costs up and slowed construction due to excessive spec detail , my attitude is its always better to keep the goverment out of what your doing

snowman707

whelan1 wrote: »

how long did it take you to be loan free ?

from small time borrowing for livestock when i was 20/21 years of age. right though to land purchase and mortgage repayments, seasonal loans, overdrafts etc., it took me about 27/28 years

there were a few rough years but we survived, & I would gladly do it all again if I could.

pakalasa

snowman707 wrote: »

from small time borrowing for livestock when i was 20/21 years of age. right though to land purchase and mortgage repayments, seasonal loans, overdrafts etc., it took me about 27/28 years

there were a few rough years but we survived, & I would gladly do it all again if I could.

Fair play to you Snowman, a bit more of that spirit from everyone in the country and they'll be no fear of us.

sprouty

Folks , have to say that the day job involves calling to self employed people from many walks of life-farmers,publicans,retailers,tradespeople & small manufacturers etc.
While its not much fun for many people out there,by far the most smiley faces are inside the farm gate at the moment! Sometimes we need to count our blessings.

whelan1

snowman707 wrote: »

from small time borrowing for livestock when i was 20/21 years of age. right though to land purchase and mortgage repayments, seasonal loans, overdrafts etc., it took me about 27/28 years

there were a few rough years but we survived, & I would gladly do it all again if I could.

any advice for us or anything you did that we should avoid?

deise toffee

F.D wrote: »

Don't want to pry into your business to much but would some of the costs be borrowings/loan repayments? if not i'd hate to see how anybody can make a living if your loan free

Yes paying for a big shed built in 2008:rolleyes:,had very outdated facilities prior to that so had to do the building really or get out of the game.Big loan repayments every month,but what is causing me the most difficulty is having my overdraft reduced drastically by the bank,its just quite hard to function at the moment and not a hope of an increase,not looking for sympathy people ,im sure theres people worse off and all that.The delay in the sfp was a bit of a hammerblow to me because it would have tied me over,its a worry at the moment but thats life.....

whelan1

any word on the next part of sfp? seems to be something on the front of this weeks journal about it

deise toffee

whelan1 wrote: »

any word on the next part of sfp? seems to be something on the front of this weeks journal about it

Need it pronto,seems like you are in the same boat?

whelan1

ye , i didnt get the second part of the disadvantaged area payment yet ... rang them a few weeks ago and they are waiting to digitise my maps:mad: might ring again tomorrow

snowman707

whelan1 wrote: »

any advice for us or anything you did that we should avoid?

everyone's circumstances are different but if you're dairying, suckling, beef sheep or whatever, try to keep the best stock you can afford when I was trying to build up quota in 1984, I milked black herefords



avoid trying to expand too quickly

& it's important to set aside some free time for yourself and family,

"expect the worst and accept the best"

reilig

I was doing a night feed at 3am this morning, trying to get the wind up and thinking about this

The Celtic tiger saw a lot of people make a lot of money fast. Some people set up a business and made millions over a couple of years for relatively little work. This was unnatural and even as farmers (myself included) we think that we have a right to make very big profits. But when i think about the past, my father, grandfather and greatgrandfather, they never did any more with the land than survive. They had debts, they repaid them over time - none of them died leaving a fortune, to be honest, none of them died leaving anything but the land. Each borrowed and invested in facilities and more land. I am farming and assuming that I will have to do the same. They didn't do it to be wealthy, they did it for the way of life. They always had enough food to survive but never had a lot of money. Can I ask for any more than this?? I don't think so and to be honest with you, I have begun to realise over the last 12 months that i don't need to do anything more than keep my head above water to be happy. If i wanted to be wealthy, i could sell the farm. But that won't make me happy, nor will it leave anything for the next generation.

In answer to your question:

Is anybody here making money from farming?

I'm not. But I'm still farming and I'm happy. Money is over-rated

pakalasa

I just hope that 'Andrewdeerpark' and 'Birdnuts' are reading this thread.

And before you reply - Dont hijack this thread too. :mad::mad:

Ding Dong

whelan1 wrote: »

i think we are still paying for last years crap prices... bills are taking longer to clear.. i know the price of milk is up but so are the inputs.. also banks aren't helping... i have a meeting with bank man tomorrow:eek:

Seriously, Whelan. From what I can make out from your previous posts, youre meeting him so much, the locals will start talking......;)

whelan1

Ding Dong wrote: »

Seriously, Whelan. From what I can make out from your previous posts, youre meeting him so much, the locals will start talking......;)

would you believe yesterday was the first time i met him since january , he wouldnt answer my calls and cancelled all previous appointments at very short notice , was surprised he met me at all!

5live

snowman707 wrote: »

everyone's circumstances are different but if you're dairying, suckling, beef sheep or whatever, try to keep the best stock you can afford when I was trying to build up quota in 1984, I milked black herefords



avoid trying to expand too quickly

& it's important to set aside some free time for yourself and family,

"expect the worst and accept the best"

Very good advice snowman. Talking to a friend in bank trade today and his thinking is that credit will freeze up. To get money(non European central bank money) back into the system will need a lot of loans paid back. The only ones that will get a loan are those that dont need it. I am lucky that there are shares to sell if push comes to shove but the farm is profitable,bar last year. I need to put up an extension to a shed for 40 cubicles but the heifers and some dry cows will have to survive on straw for a few more years until the overdraft is back under control. Relig hit the nail on the head for me. Money is only useful for what it can do. My father always said that money is like butter. Its no use until its spread around:D

Pacoa

The money system in this world is designed to make one thing and that is debt. The first hour of this video explains it very well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EewGMBOB4Gg

It's slow to get going for the first five minutes.

thats interesting

I'm a mixed farm, average size, a bit everything, and the answer to the question is yes, I'm making money.....

but...........
I do not borrow at all, costs have to be really really low, big emphasis on grass, everything (cattle and machinery) has to be minded well, (a cow dies and it costs bigtime!) and expansion has to be at a snails pace because it costs so much to expand.

That's my twopence worth, but I'm sure others have a different way of doing things.

mondeoman1708

deise toffee wrote: »

Im milking roughly 75 cows,but what im paying out every month in costs is currently exceeding what im bringing in.bad times:(

Dairy cows in a good year will give a profit of €300 to €1000 depending on output and costs per cow. To see how you're doing you should contact Teagasc and let them give you a hnad, plus suggestions on how to improve. You seem to have two problems, one is you are trying to dig yourself out of the hole of 2009 and very bad milk prices, second is you are still recovering from building sheds, I think you refer to that soemwhere. Maybe you are trying to pay back too quick. I would suggest that your bank reckons you can't succeed the way you are, so yo need to restructure thinks. Get Teagasc to come up with a plan to help you survive. You need to restructure debt and mind your costs. 75 cows is a good size herd but if you are too heavily borrowed or yo are spending too much, it won't work for you and there is no use waiting for some miraculous milk price rise.

The IFA used to be very involved 20 ears ago also is organising loan restructuring, there is not as much sign of it yet from them.

Get help

mondeoman1708

thats interesting wrote: »

I'm a mixed farm, average size, a bit everything, and the answer to the question is yes, I'm making money.....

but...........
I do not borrow at all, costs have to be really really low, big emphasis on grass, everything (cattle and machinery) has to be minded well, (a cow dies and it costs bigtime!) and expansion has to be at a snails pace because it costs so much to expand.

That's my twopence worth, but I'm sure others have a different way of doing things.

This is excellant advice, when money is flush you can go mad (not that that's my advice!) but when it is scarce, you have to be responsible and take this man's advice