Failed to Live Up To Their Promise...

cson

I was watching a few races from Cheltenham a couple of years back and it struck me how Cousin Vinny never really kicked on. Granted the record in transition from Champion Bumper winner to Supreme Novice winner isn't great but Cousin Vinny has really struggled when faced with decent horses.

meriwether

Green Monkey.

Therealbandit.

Beef or Salmon. He didn't do it in Cheltenham, simple as.

Black Jack Ketchum.

Sprouts

Carvills Hill

HigginsJ

Cork All-Star very similar to Cousin Vinny. Class Bumper winner who has done nothing since.

Dont agree with Beef or Salmon. Ok he wasnt great at Cheltenham but won so many other races.

meriwether

HigginsJ wrote: »

Cork All-Star very similar to Cousin Vinny. Class Bumper winner who has done nothing since.

Dont agree with Beef or Salmon. Ok he wasnt great at Cheltenham but won so many other races.

Good call on Cork All Star.

To a smaller extent, the likes of Clopf caught my eye this week in the paper.

O'Muirheartaigh was JF for the Supreme at one time with Iktitaf.

Blazing bailey never trained on either after coming a decent second to Inglis at Cheltenham (non festival). Same could be said for Kasbah bliss also, over obstacles at least.

Morgans

HigginsJ wrote: »

Cork All-Star very similar to Cousin Vinny. Class Bumper winner who has done nothing since.

Dont agree with Beef or Salmon. Ok he wasnt great at Cheltenham but won so many other races.

I cant believe Beef or Salmon is in here. Ten grade 1s beating three individual Gold Cup winners in Best Mate, War of Attrition and Kicking King. He didnt act at Cheltenham. Not the first in that. And those who backed him the last two years at cheltenham were hoping against hope.

Nor Carvills Hill. Injury prone animal with back problems, but people got to see glimpses how good he was. Those who were hyping him up from the earliest days of his career werent far off the mark.

Also think that its a year too early to be writing off Cousin Vinny. I think that he is still capable of winning good races. Maybe not to the level that was expected at one stage but wont disgrace himself.

Horses like O'Muirheartaigh, Clopf, Sweet Wake Therealbandit are good examples. Overhyped after some easy novice wins.

Some horses have been touted as being able to win multiple gold cup winners before achieving anything really. Fundamentalist won the novice chase at Cheltenham this Sunday a few years ago and was quoted for the Gold CUp, Champion Chase, as well as all the novice races but didnt progress. Iris Bleu came from france with a huge reputation but won very very little. Keen Leader looked a Gold Cup winner in waiting as well. Barton looked like he could win it all after his novice days. Peter Easterby saying he was the best horse he ever saw.

Colonel Sanders

Co-incidentally this article is on The Sportinglife website today

In fairness the likes of Barton suffered injury problems

I always think of Nick Dundee and Jair Du Cochet when this type of thread comes up. Both had their careers tragically cut short when both looked like they could go to the very top (Nick Dundee especially)

In terms of hype horses that turned out to be rubbish the list is endless

Killer Instinct on the flat, the likes of Liberman, Sweet wake and many, many more over jumps

RichieLawlor

meriwether wrote: »

Blazing bailey never trained on either after coming a decent second to Inglis at Cheltenham (non festival). Same could be said for Kasbah bliss also, over obstacles at least.

Blazing Bailey definitely doesn't fall into this Category, ran a lot of good races and won the Grade 1 stayers hurdle at Punchestown.

Neither does Kasbah, never got a chance to fulfill his hurdling potential.

Notable underachievers include on flat Johannesburg

mdwexford

Beef Or Salmon was top class as Morgans has said, mental to be mentioning him in here. Cheltenham isnt the be all and end all regardless of how much we love it.

Was going to mention a bit harsh on Barton as well but CS has pointed that out.

Ones that spring to mind are pretty much any Cheltenham bumper winner since the Back In Front year.

Others are Decoupage, Contraband (never won a race after his Arkle win in 15 attempts), My Way De Solzen, Arcalis, Ebaziyan etc

cson

mdwexford wrote: »

Others are Decoupage, Contraband (never won a race after his Arkle win in 15 attempts), My Way De Solzen, Arcalis, Ebaziyan etc

That one went off the boil in a big way. It's only 3 years since he cosily took his Arkle that had a few decent ones in it [Fair Along, Twist Magic, Don't Push It].

You'd sort of see similar [though not as drastic] parallels with the way Voy Por Ustedes has gone backwards.

And Katchit too.

Alan King... what are ya at?! :P

Juwwi

Nicanor beat the mighty Denman but its probably a bit harse mentioning because of his injury.

Hairy Molly probably turned out to be one of the worse bumper winners.

Rhinestone Cowboy was another that didnt realy doalot either.

mdwexford

robbie1977 wrote: »

Rhinestone Cowboy was another that didnt realy doalot either.

Holy mother of god i hope this is a joke. :eek:

Juwwi

mdwexford wrote: »

Holy mother of god i hope this is a joke. :eek:

Maybe lm wrong l taught he was hyped up early on but did'nt win anything big..

RichieLawlor

cson wrote: »

That one went off the boil in a big way. It's only 3 years since he cosily took his Arkle that had a few decent ones in it [Fair Along, Twist Magic, Don't Push It].

You'd sort of see similar [though not as drastic] parallels with the way Voy Por Ustedes has gone backwards.

And Katchit too.

Alan King... what are ya at?! :P

Voy Por Ustedes and Katchit did more than 99% of horses will ever do, won both the novice championship races and THE championship races in there respective divisions. Both horses more than lived up to there promise.

My Way De Solzen shouldn't be on here either. Although he failed to cut it over fences out of novice company he did win the Stayers Hurdle as a 6 year old and followed that by dropping back to 2 miles and hacking up in an Arkle chase.

Also lol at the mention of Rhinestone Cowboy in here

You guys are picking some horrible examples of horses who fail to live up to there promise.

hucklebuck

I know I will get jeered for this but surely Harchibald fits in here, sure he won 3/4 grade 1's and a Bula but for all his potential he rarely ran to it.

Poor auld Detroit City looked like he was going to dominate hurdling for a long time but completely lost his way before his tragic heart attack.

Dunguib might be in this category too if he keeps going the way he is:(

mdwexford

robbie1977 wrote: »

Maybe lm wrong l taught he was hyped up early on but did'nt win anything big..

Ah i just took it a bit personally because hes one of my favs of all time.
He was a dual Grade 1 winner and a 170 rated hurdler though, ie top class.

RichieLawlor wrote: »

My Way De Solzen shouldn't be on here either. Although he failed to cut it over fences out of novice company he did win the Stayers Hurdle as a 6 year old and followed that by dropping back to 2 miles and hacking up in an Arkle chase.

He failed to live up to his promise after the Arkle, simple.

cson

RichieLawlor wrote: »

Voy Por Ustedes and Katchit did more than 99% of horses will ever do, won both the novice championship races and THE championship races in there respective divisions. Both horses more than lived up to there promise.

My Way De Solzen shouldn't be on here either. Although he failed to cut it over fences out of novice company he did win the Stayers Hurdle as a 6 year old and followed that by dropping back to 2 miles and hacking up in an Arkle chase.

Also lol at the mention of Rhinestone Cowboy in here

You guys are picking some horrible examples of horses who fail to live up to there promise.

Not that they didn't live up to their promise but I picked MWDS as an animal who went backward a lot and followed onto VPU and Katchit who have somewhat petered out too.

If you can't go off topic in your own thread where can you go off topic? :pac:

Colonel Sanders

I know I'll keep posting here as more and more horses will keep coming back to me but does anyone remember Japhet?

Was supposedly the next big thing from France but fell in the RSA and then was beaten at Aintree by none other than Barton Never won another race

Colonel Sanders

Now I'm trying to think of some so called wonder horses in bumpers

A few I can think of are:

Mad Fish (the next big thing from the Mullins stable in 07 or 08)
Alexander Accordion (I remember a massive gamble on this horse in Tramore in 2004)
Alexander Buffet was the alleged 'pigeon catcher' in the Mullins yard in 2006 in the run in to the bumper
Cork All Star (see the sportinglife article above!)
Knocknabooly (another "machine" who didn't do much)
Inca (Joe Cullen floored a gamble in the 00 champion bumper. Think he unfortunately died very young)
Joe Cullen himself

God this list could get pretty long. I must rack my brains for some of the gambles that I have seen go astray in Ireland over the years

Colonel Sanders

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Now I'm trying to think of some so called wonder horses in bumpers

A few I can think of are:

Mad Fish (the next big thing from the Mullins stable in 07 or 08)
Alexander Accordion (I remember a massive gamble on this horse in Tramore in 2004)
Alexander Buffet was the alleged 'pigeon catcher' in the Mullins yard in 2006 in the run in to the bumper
Cork All Star (see the sportinglife article above!)
Knocknabooly (another "machine" who didn't do much)
Inca (Joe Cullen floored a gamble in the 00 champion bumper. Think he unfortunately died very young)
Joe Cullen himself

God this list could get pretty long. I must rack my brains for some of the gambles that I have seen go astray in Ireland over the years

Biliverdin - monster gamble in the 99 bumper. Finished nearer last than first. Didn't do much after

Morgans

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

Now I'm trying to think of some so called wonder horses in bumpers

A few I can think of are:

Mad Fish (the next big thing from the Mullins stable in 07 or 08)
Alexander Accordion (I remember a massive gamble on this horse in Tramore in 2004)
Alexander Buffet was the alleged 'pigeon catcher' in the Mullins yard in 2006 in the run in to the bumper
Cork All Star (see the sportinglife article above!)
Knocknabooly (another "machine" who didn't do much)
Inca (Joe Cullen floored a gamble in the 00 champion bumper. Think he unfortunately died very young)
Joe Cullen himself

God this list could get pretty long. I must rack my brains for some of the gambles that I have seen go astray in Ireland over the years

I think the horses that failed to live up to their promise is something different to a talking horse. I think the horses that failed to live up to their promise are a category of horse that looked like being world beaters at one stage only to show that they flattered to deceive. Just because a horse won the cheltenham bumper doesnt mean that he automatically was a great horse. As have been listed here, there are several that haven't progressed on, but Liberman was bought to win the chelt bumper nothing more nothing less. He was murdered to get it. Some winners like Cue Card and Dunguib knock the eye out and have to categorised as "could be anything" at the time. But the likes of Hairy Molly, Liberman, Rhythm Section, Joe Cullen, Cork All Star never gave the same impression. The bumper ones are as much racecourse talk and media looking for a story as much as anything. Before it used to be what has JP got lined up for it, then it became what has Willie lined up for it. The worst of all the horses "touted" as being the bumper good thing but had nothing near the talent for the rumours was Martinstown. Favourite for the race despite having very little talent. (not just speaking in hindsight, only favourite because of connections).

Reminds me that Youlneverwalkalone was talked about as if he was unbeatable. He did manage to impress again on a few occasions (beat Moscow Flyer in the Hattons Grace) but never got near the heights that he was supposed to reach.

Sprouts

Only horses mentioned so far but what about Warren O'Connor? Made one splash alright with Kooyonga but that was it. Don't know for what reason but never really advanced.

Morgans

Think it was because he rode for Michael Kauntze. Anyone know the horse he finished second on in an English classic? There have been far better jockeys who didnt make it. Had he got on the right horses, he would have had some chance.

mdwexford

Have a slight memory of Japhet alright.

Ha Knocknabooly and Martinstown bring back a few memories alright.
Hype over Cheltenham bumper horses is always hilarious.

How Youlneverwalkalone ended up winning the Will Hill when it looked like he wouldnt stay 3 miles in a horse box in the Sup Nov always baffled me.

Morgans

mdwexford wrote: »

Have a slight memory of Japhet alright.

Ha Knocknabooly and Martinstown bring back a few memories alright.
Hype over Cheltenham bumper horses is always hilarious.

How Youlneverwalkalone ended up winning the Will Hill when it looked like he wouldnt stay 3 miles in a horse box in the Sup Nov always baffled me.

Japhet, favourite for the Sun Alliance that Hussard Collonges won, only made favourite by default nearly because the English and Irish challenge looked so bad. Iznogoud was second I think. Desperate race.

Colonel Sanders

Morgans wrote: »

Japhet, favourite for the Sun Alliance that Hussard Collonges won, only made favourite by default nearly because the English and Irish challenge looked so bad. Iznogoud was second I think. Desperate race.

I actually got sucked in and backed it at Aintree the same year when Barton beat it :eek:

Morgans

Colonel Sanders wrote: »

I actually got sucked in and backed it at Aintree the same year when Barton beat it :eek:

Just checked the form there, Colonel Braxton was favourite for the race. Thats a blast from the past. The horse that ran in the race that best describes one that failed to live up to its promise was Valley Henry. Not only did Barber/Keightly pay a fortune for it, and it flopped (after initially looking a world beater as a novice hurdler/chaser) they managed to flog it for big money again to Graham Wylie where the horse did the exact same.

Most of JP's big money purchases have been disappointments. Garde Champetre being the most expensive of the lot. Knife Edge, Lami, even First Gold who again looked like he was certain to run up a Kauto style sequence in King Georges. He did buy Baracouda in the same purchase though.

UrbanSea

Recently on the flat,so many Ballydoyle horses it's ridiculous.
Famous. Million dollar filly.
Fighting Brave,won a maiden,that's it. Cost 2.4 million dollars I believe.
Plenty of Godolphin ones can be put in here.
Urban Poet was bought out of Mark Johnston's stable for 2 million dollars I believe and was as low as 7/1 for last year's Leger. Last seen finishing 18 lengths beaten in a handicap worth 10,000 pounds.
Al Zir,bought for 1.6 million dollars,third in the racing post trophy at 2. Beaten into 3rd in a conditions race before it's last race.

I'll be thinking for a while about this.

UrbanSea

But the most disappointing was a horse called Cawtoe Star I think.
He was favourite to win a race once but fell at the last and Snoopy Loopy won. He was meant to be a big shout for the Ayr Gold Cup I think. But why would a horse racing over hurdles be favourite for that???

Juwwi

Wicita lineman has turned out like youllneverwalkalone did.

Looked like he was gona be a good stayer in his early days.

Morgans

robbie1977 wrote: »

Wicita lineman has turned out like youllneverwalkalone did.

Looked like he was gona be a good stayer in his early days.

Wichita Linesman is a good example alright. That 3m race was a brutal one. Especially when you look at the race he had at Aintree three weeks later. Chief Dan George won it. McCoy got him into a battle with Massini's Maguire about 1.5m from home. Think those races bottomed him.

Shelflife

Slightly off topic, but why is it that many of the festival bumper winners dont kick on from that win?

is the race too hard on them?

UrbanSea

Shelflife wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but why is it that many of the festival bumper winners dont kick on from that win?

is the race too hard on them?

I wondered the same. Think it's down to the fact that hurdle and flat races are so different. If a horse can't jump to the top of their ability than they won't be grade winners. Also,Bumper winners are young. So many other runners in the field who get beaten could improve so much in relation to the winner,no more than a horse on the flat making the transition from 2-3.
I had totally forgot Hairy Molly won the bumper until someone else mentioned it in this thread.

Juwwi

A little off topic as injury stopped him but Monsignor would of gone to the very top.

mdwexford

robbie1977 wrote: »

A little off topic as injury stopped him but Monsignor would of gone to the very top.

The greatest novice hurdler of all time, makes me sad i never got to see him jump a fence.

hucklebuck

Morgans wrote: »

Wichita Linesman is a good example alright. That 3m race was a brutal one. Especially when you look at the race he had at Aintree three weeks later. Chief Dan George won it. McCoy got him into a battle with Massini's Maguire about 1.5m from home. Think those races bottomed him.

Thats true alright and he seemed to be regaining his ability and enthusiasm and then he had a shockingly hard race in the William Hill last year and his tragic fall at the first in the next race.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUQj7SOy1hg

Some ride by Mc Coy.

cson

hucklebuck wrote: »

Thats true alright and he seemed to be regaining his ability and enthusiasm and then he had a shockingly hard race in the William Hill last year and his tragic fall at the first in the next race.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUQj7SOy1hg

Some ride by Mc Coy.

Thought he was a very soft favourite and laid him for a nice bit on Betfair. Counted my chickens about a mile out and then slowly felt my jaw drop from there on in. :P

Morgans

cson wrote: »

Thought he was a very soft favourite and laid him for a nice bit on Betfair. Counted my chickens about a mile out and then slowly felt my jaw drop from there on in. :P

I know Im on my own on this but I think that is one of the most overrated rides. Just riding a slow horse that got involved due to his stamina. Im never impressed by the never-give-up rides. Give me his ride on Make A Stand any day, even Mr Mulligan.

And Timmy Murphy's ride on the same horse at Chepstow earlier that year.

http://www.attheraces.com/VideoConsole/?va=CHP_2008_12_06_02_1300

mr.jingle

It ain't a bumper horse but i remember a Tony Martin horse from a few years ago called Dun Doire who won at Cheltenham when Ruby came from the clouds to win. I seen him in Hunter's chases last year but i seem to remember him going off nearly fav for a grand national one year!

Franchoek is another one who dissappointed after coming 2nd to Celestaial Halo in the Triumph Hurdle he was to be the next big thing in hurdling!

UrbanSea

mr.jingle wrote: »

It ain't a bumper horse but i remember a Tony Martin horse from a few years ago called Dun Doire who won at Cheltenham when Ruby came from the clouds to win. I seen him in Hunter's chases last year but i seem to remember him going off nearly fav for a grand national one year!

Franchoek is another one who dissappointed after coming 2nd to Celestaial Halo in the Triumph Hurdle he was to be the next big thing in hurdling!

Aw how could I forget Franchoek. Still a maiden over fences aswell I think.

meriwether

mr.jingle wrote: »

It ain't a bumper horse but i remember a Tony Martin horse from a few years ago called Dun Doire who won at Cheltenham when Ruby came from the clouds to win. I seen him in Hunter's chases last year but i seem to remember him going off nearly fav for a grand national one year!

Franchoek is another one who dissappointed after coming 2nd to Celestaial Halo in the Triumph Hurdle he was to be the next big thing in hurdling!

He went off even fav for the Triumph IIRC. I lost me balls on a 2/1 antepost.

A great shout.

premierstone

mr.jingle wrote: »

It ain't a bumper horse but i remember a Tony Martin horse from a few years ago called Dun Doire who won at Cheltenham when Ruby came from the clouds to win. I seen him in Hunter's chases last year but i seem to remember him going off nearly fav for a grand national one year!

Dun Doire was rated 79 at the start of that seaon and ended up with a mark of 137 winning a Thystes and Willianm Hill on the way, no way is that ahorse that didnt live up nto expectations, more like a horse that greatly over achieved for a season, I cartainly cant recall many who have went up nthe ratings by that much in that short a period of time it was a remarkable training achievement by Tony Martin.

One that does spring to mind when i see the thread title is Nicanor (beat Denman fair and square) but it was injury that stoped him fullfilling he's promise

meriwether

Aran Concerto. Granted, injury, etc.

Meade has a few here - perhaps because we know his horses well.

Juwwi

Good shout on Franchok.

Im nearly sure Racing Demon was being touted as a future gold cup winner in his hurdling days.
He has proved dissapointing.

Or Royal won the arkle for pipe but never won another chase after that.

Back to Black Jack Kethum does anyone else remember the bookies offering odds on him winning the next 3 stayers hurdles when he was at his peak of hypedness.nearly sure it was ladbrokes going something like 8 or 10/1

Stewie Griffin

Dooley, anyone?

MikeB94

Surely Liberman has to be the biggest dissapointment of all the Champion Bumper winners. Won his first race after the bumper which was a Class 3 or 4 i think,then went off the boil, wins a couple of bad races in ireland and then wins a couple of moderate chases in England and never wins again. At least the like of Cousin Vinny won a few grade 1 novices but this yoke went crazy bad after them couple of chase wins and i dont think ever won a race again!!

mr.jingle

premierstone wrote: »

Dun Doire was rated 79 at the start of that seaon and ended up with a mark of 137 winning a Thystes and Willianm Hill on the way, no way is that ahorse that didnt live up nto expectations, more like a horse that greatly over achieved for a season, I cartainly cant recall many who have went up nthe ratings by that much in that short a period of time it was a remarkable training achievement by Tony Martin.

Indeed it was a remarkable run of wins on the bounce he had. My bad i was just thinking after he won at Cheltenham but obviously he was weighted to the hilt so had no chance!:o

HigginsJ

Contraband. Won an Arkle for Pipe and Johnson and did nothing after.

RichieLawlor

How about Well Chief?

Morgans

No. Incorrect on that one Im afraid. Just because he didnt win a QM doesnt make you a failure on your initial promise. In fact, that he could compete with Moscow Flyer and Azertyuiop was a surprise to most. He overachieved before getting injured.

HigginsJ

When fit Well Chief was brilliant. Injury was the problem not under achievement.