Making recessed LED lights airtight

russtini

My sparky is just starting 2nd fix lighting for my new build house.

He has a dozen LED recessed lights to fit and the builder wants him to ensure they will pass airtightness but sparky isn't sure what hood or similar to use to keep the house airtight.

I have done some basic googling, checked boards, and asked local electrical wholesaler, but no one really seems to really know... These are the options I have come across:

1. Use specialist airtightness hood at €30 each = €400 total (could only find these in USA?>)
2. One electrician I spoke to said he heard of using metal breakfast bowls at €1 a pop and sealing these behind the fixture with seal and tape -simple but effective
3. I thought of using sandwich bags taped to the fitting as an even cheaper method?

Heat from the light is not particulr issue as the bulbs are LED.

Sure I am not the first or the last person to come across this- suggestions and solutions available very much appreciated! (Co. Clare)

paddy147

Id run out of your house if you did go for option 3.

A plastic bag and ANY sort of heat is not to be even considered.:eek:

indie armada

probably the most common solution to your problem is to use fire/acoustic rated downlighters. they have a seal around the fitting similar to an ip rated fitting, they also contain intumescent material which seals around the fitting in a fire situation.
most main brands do these types of fitting inc aurora, robus ansell ect and ive a link to one below, also showing the fire hoods you mentioned.

http://www.aurora.eu.com/AUFIREV2.aspx?b=94&c=

M cebee

the fire rated wouldn't be air-tight in normal use afaik

indie armada

M cebee wrote: »

the fire rated wouldn't be air-tight in normal use afaik

taken from the aurora website

MAINTAINS THE DWELLINGS AIR LEAKAGE REQUIREMENTS
Products include seals to help compliance with Part C & L of the Building Regulations

afaik....the regs they refere to are english but might comply with ours, and do they mean in normal state or in a fire...not sure?

M cebee

the fire rated i've fitted aren't airtight

the intumescent seal expands

afraid i don't know much

ntpm

I have used silicon on the faceplate to seal against ceiling.... but a nightmare if you need to change the light/ bulbs.....

russtini

thanks for feedback

For others who may find this post in the future, I am off to Dunnes Stores to find metal cereal bowls and am going the route of siliconing these behind the fitting. Will feedback how I got on.

Any other ideas in next few days still appreciated...

fatpig

Terracotta flowerpots will be cheaper that your metal dishes. Also see the available lights at www.ibl.co.uk. The EcoSeal type meet all building requirements.

cast_iron

How does the builder (or whoever) test the air-tightness?
Would the fitting surrounding be relevant, ie. rockwool or the like?

fatpig

Set the pot in a silicone ring, block the pot drain-hole with silicone and then do a 'smoke test' from underneath.....google that to see how it is done.... a lot of trouble to go to though!.

karltimber

Hi Rustini,

I am about to do the same as yourself.

Have just changed to led's - see other thread, and can feel a jet of cold air coming through from the attic space.

I found a similar metal flower pot in Ikea - probably higher than a breakfast bowl.
They were euro1 - located just as you leave the showroom going into the warehouse/checkout area. They have a good height which may be needed.

Will put a nick in the side for the cable and add a grommet for safety reasons - I only have to do 8 of them.

will post a pic over the next day or two.

k

dogspider47

Found an excellent product online for airtightness with LED downlights. Installed 40 in my house and the difference is unbelivable. No more cold spots. Cost was only €7 each with €10 delivery. Had them at the door 3 days later. Not sure if I can post the link but here goes anyway. www.downlightcoversdirect.ie .

paddy147

Wellcome to the forum.

I allready posted about them here on this forum.I have Philips Master 4 watt LED downlights installed throught my house.Great light quaklity indeed,and fully dimmable too.

JOHNPT

Hello Paddy can those LEDs be dimmed with any dimmer or just a specific dimmer?.

Eurosales do an Aurora dimmer are these sufficient?.

Re installing lights am i correct in understanding you dont use fire rated downlight fittings? - have you any pictures of downlight fittings

You just use a normal downlight and cover with the pot as shown in picture? Those this comply with Rules?

Thanks

tfitzgerald

Use the terracotta pots metal near electricity is not good . If you take my advice stay away from downlighters you will be left with a hole in your ceiling and will not be able to change to another type of light

Tefral

What are ye doing about heat dissipation if ye are surrounding the back of the lights?

JOHNPT

I dont imagine there would be much heat from LED bulbs but am unsure if this complies with rules? Also can these pots be used to cover the standard 50watt halogen bulbs and those this comply with rules? - Paddy seems to be the expert on these matter so will await his opinion.

Tefral

JOHNPT wrote: »

I dont imagine there would be much heat from LED bulbs but am unsure if this complies with rules? Also can these pots be used to cover the standard 50watt halogen bulbs and those this comply with rules? - Paddy seems to be the expert on these matter so will await his opinion.

There is alot of heat coming out the back of them!

paddy147

You could fry an egg with a normal 50watt GU10 downlight bulb,as they are that hot and potentially dangerous.

An LED downlight bulb gives off little or no heat,and it a much safer light to use in a celing and with fire covers.You could hold an LED light in your hand for hours and you would barely feel the heat from it.

This is the main reason why I changed everything in my house over to LED.


Also far less electricity consumed too.


Regards.

JOHNPT

Those these pots/covers comply with regulations though?

paddy147

JOHNPT wrote: »

Those these pots/covers comply with regulations though?

They are fully fire retardant/fireproof.


Something else here.......Does you're ceilings and plasterboard comply with fire requlations??

My celings are just standard plasterboard,as would probably be most of the domestic houses in this country.

JOHNPT

Thanks Paddy good research on those LED bulbs - pots seem like a great idea and far cheaper than fire proof downlights but just curious if they are acceptable by ETCI rules.

paddy147

Picture comparing the size of a normal 50 watt GU10 light and a Philips Master 4 watt LED light.

Exact same size.

M cebee

JOHNPT wrote: »

Thanks Paddy good research on those LED bulbs - pots seem like a great idea and far cheaper than fire proof downlights but just curious if they are acceptable by ETCI rules.

i'd say it's building regs rather than etci rules

i don't see any mention of fire rating in the link anyway

says they have a fire retardant interior

ciankinsella

Paddy147,

I agree that the Philips LEDs give off less heat, but I don't agree that you could hold one for hours while hardly feeling the heat. I just tried it, and I would guess that the temperature of the body of the led bulb was about 45c, it having been in a standard open-backed fitting.

Dardania

LEDs fail if they can't dissipate their heat...the Philips 7W 12V LED actually has a tiny fan in it...

You could look at something like this: http://www.ecat.lighting.philips.com/l/zadora-led-ip44/lp_cf_bbg468_eu_fa_ie_lp_prof_atg/cat/ie/?lpType=Luminaires&userLanguage=en&catalogType=LP_PROF_ATG&userCountry=ie&proxybuster=5D756DDB5FFCFAD001BC3C9775F07B29.app106-drp3

THe lamp manufacturer designed the casing, so they should be sufficient

paddy147

ciankinsella wrote: »

Paddy147,

I agree that the Philips LEDs give off less heat, but I don't agree that you could hold one for hours while hardly feeling the heat. I just tried it, and I would guess that the temperature of the body of the led bulb was about 45c, it having been in a standard open-backed fitting.

Well I can hold my Philips Master LEDs all day long and they just about barely get warm,but not 45 degreec C,no where near that.They are a very well thought out and designed LED downlight indeed.

steifanc

russtini wrote: »

My sparky is just starting 2nd fix lighting for my new build house.

He has a dozen LED recessed lights to fit and the builder wants him to ensure they will pass airtightness but sparky isn't sure what hood or similar to use to keep the house airtight.

I have done some basic googling, checked boards, and asked local electrical wholesaler, but no one really seems to really know... These are the options I have come across:

1. Use specialist airtightness hood at €30 each = €400 total (could only find these in USA?>)
2. One electrician I spoke to said he heard of using metal breakfast bowls at €1 a pop and sealing these behind the fixture with seal and tape -simple but effective
3. I thought of using sandwich bags taped to the fitting as an even cheaper method?

Heat from the light is not particulr issue as the bulbs are LED.

Sure I am not the first or the last person to come across this- suggestions and solutions available very much appreciated! (Co. Clare)

can you not just put an air barrier on the other side of the joist ?

Stoner

russtini wrote: »

My sparky is just starting 2nd fix lighting for my new build house.

He has a dozen LED recessed lights to fit and the builder wants him to ensure they will pass airtightness but sparky isn't sure what hood or similar to use to keep the house airtight.

I have done some basic googling, checked boards, and asked local electrical wholesaler, but no one really seems to really know... These are the options I have come across:

1. Use specialist airtightness hood at €30 each = €400 total (could only find these in USA?>)
2. One electrician I spoke to said he heard of using metal breakfast bowls at €1 a pop and sealing these behind the fixture with seal and tape -simple but effective
3. I thought of using sandwich bags taped to the fitting as an even cheaper method?

Heat from the light is not particulr issue as the bulbs are LED.

Sure I am not the first or the last person to come across this- suggestions and solutions available very much appreciated! (Co. Clare)

OP

You can get insulated recessed fittings with 10W max load (no halogen lamps). the circular hole should be near perfect. Michael Garry and Edmundson electrical have them about 20 euro each ex vat. aurora lighting. they are also fire rated, I'm sure other wholesalers will have them too.

The also have 4Watt LEDs i think that IMO the light is nicer than the philips (warmer) but in the small few tests i did the philips lamp is more intense (brighter) but only slightly, i did not go mad testing though but the angles matched

Neither is a match for a 50Watt 12V halogen, or a 35Watt halogen as advertised IMO but there is a decent kick of the Philips and Aurora LED lamps, the Philips one can be dimmed with some dimmers and the aurora can't.

the fitting you use is important, the one is suggested has a heatsink on the top.

M cebee

http://www.eielectronics.com/loftcap-switch-socket-covers/downlight-cover

Ei are selling these
they seem to meet the relevant standards