I issued my first arrest warrant Saturday...

Paulzx

Manic Moran wrote: »

How about when California's police agencies are overwhelmed during natural disasters such as wildfires, should CHP have, instead of calling in the National Guard to police the streets, gone to the hassle and expense of calling in Nevada State Troopers under Mutual Aid? After all, it's a policing job, let the police do it.

NTM

Come on!! You can hardly equate a huge natural disaster with a single soldier going awol. That's over egging it

Manic Moran

Ok, so you're saying that there's a line to be drawn.

Let's take two other real-world examples, then.

Small town sheriff in Florida has a homicide in his jurisdiction. His small police force is completely overstretched with the investigation and telephones the local military base to ask for a loan of a few troops for a few hours to perform traffic control around the incident location. (In the event, the base commander sent about a dozen lads out)

Small town sheriff in Colorado is faced with a renegade individual who is going around knocking down houses using a bulldozer. He calls the local base for two soldiers in a helicopter gunship to stop the bulldozer. (In the event, the bulldozer got stuck before the commander had to make a decision)

The first, particularly, really is a trivial use for soldiers and perfectly suited for a telephone call to the neighbouring Sheriff or the Florida Highway Patrol. Is, for lack of a better term, a 'good neighbour' going to say 'no'?

NTM

Paulzx

Manic Moran wrote: »

. He calls the local base for two soldiers in a helicopter gunship to stop the bulldozer.

NTM

:eek::eek::eek:

Only in America:D

Manic Moran

In fairness, the individual in question had made some slight modifications from the original Komatsu design.





NTM

eroo

Seriously, you can't compare these cases to a soldier going awol. These would come under aid to the civil power. It doesn't really work in reverse because military are usually seen as a self sustaining last resort.

Still don't see why military police can't fulfill their main role because they are busy training. You can bet the police were busy when they had to deal with your warrant.

Manic Moran

eroo wrote: »

Seriously, you can't compare these cases to a soldier going awol. These would come under aid to the civil power. It doesn't really work in reverse because military are usually seen as a self sustaining last resort.

So what you're saying is that routine Army work is so valued that there is nothing wrong with dragging them away from their daily drudge to perform a trivial civilian traffic control mission, whereas police work is so valued that there is definitely something wrong with taking them away from their daily drudge to go perform a trivial military arrest mission?

It is to be noted that I have several troopers in my unit who are police on the civilian side, including the AWOL soldier's squad leader. Nobody has expressed any concerns at my action, several have expressed approval (including the squad leader). However, next time I see them, I'll make a point to ask them their honest opinion directly.

Still don't see why military police can't fulfill their main role because they are busy training. You can bet the police were busy when they had to deal with your warrant.

The following are the doctrinal tasks performed by US MPs.

1. Maneuver and mobility support operations
2. Area security operations
3. Law and order operations
4. Internment and resettlement operations
5. Police intelligence operations

The current, high-tempo use of MPs in places like Iraq and Afghanistan is such that they need to be spending their very limited training time on life-saving things like 'how not to get blown up by an IED,' not performing a task which can be performed other agencies. Of course, police will say the reverse. It then just comes down to time. If the soldier in question was in the same town as my unit, I wouldn't have called anyone at all, and just dealt with the matter by sending my own guys down the road. The statute doesn't say I have to use the police, it just gives me the option at my discretion. If I'm going to be taking up someone's time, I'm going to chose the someone whose time is least taken up.

In all cases, however, no matter who goes out, if the individual is not at home, then there is no option but a warrant to the civil police agencies, since they are the only organisation likely to encounter the individual on a 'by chance' basis.

NTM

eroo

Fair enough the set up is different in the states, but I still hold the same opinions.

No offense intended, but what was the purpose of this thread?

Manic Moran

No offense intended, but what was the purpose of this thread?

Mainly to express my surprise (and approval) at the flexibility that the police showed. I had expected to have to go through a whole bunch of "Give me your number and I'll have someone look into it and call you back" or "I need to call to get guidance from my supervisor, it may take a while as the Captain doesn't work weekends." Instead, I got two friendly dispatchers, plus a deputy and a sergeant, all of whom were a bit bemused, but more than willing to make decisions on the spot on their own. A trait I find unfortunately rare in government agencies, where if something is a little out of the ordinary, one can expect all sorts of pain and inflexibility, and a trait whose existence, or lack thereof I am unaware of the status of in the Irish organisations.

I was kindof hoping to prompt some form of 'you know, we got a bizarre request once, and this is how we dealt with it' responses.

NTM

Corcioch

Paulzx wrote: »

:eek::eek::eek:

Only in America:D

Only in America Indeed was my first thought too . . . . . . .

Manic Moran wrote: »

In fairness, the individual in question had made some slight modifications from the original Komatsu design.





NTM

And then I saw this . . . .and my next thought was . . . . .again . . . .Only in America, . . . . .would some complete lunatic do something like that.

Shield

Lads this is getting further and further away from an ES platform than I would like. Can we please bring this back relative to ES? Thanks.

Terrontress

It's quite ironic that cop friends of mine tell me that they don't like it that when they come upon normally law-abiding citizens they say "Why don't you catch real criminals instead of harassing me!?" or "Instead of catching criminals you are always doing paperwork".

In this thread we have self-identified Gardaí who are essentially complaining about others in the same way.

It's their job, it's the law and the Police have to enforce it, whether it's someone whose car tax is a few weeks out of date, is driving over the speed limit or the guy who is sent to prison for not paying the fine for recycling incorrectly at the bottle bank.

I'd be surprised if there are many Gardaí out there who have only ever used their time enforcing laws they have believed in.

Corcioch

Terrontress wrote: »

It's quite ironic that cop friends of mine tell me that they don't like it that when they come upon normally law-abiding citizens they say "Why don't you catch real criminals instead of harassing me!?" or "Instead of catching criminals you are always doing paperwork".

In this thread we have self-identified Gardaí who are essentially complaining about others in the same way.

It's their job, it's the law and the Police have to enforce it, whether it's someone whose car tax is a few weeks out of date, is driving over the speed limit or the guy who is sent to prison for not paying the fine for recycling incorrectly at the bottle bank.

I'd be surprised if there are many Gardaí out there who have only ever used their time enforcing laws they have believed in.

Dont worry, there are plenty of jobs and roles Gardaí have that they believe are a complete and utter waste of time and resources.

Dealing with Speeders, tax and other road traffic offences IS the Role of Gardaí, Traffic Corps Gardaí more specifically but not exclusively . . . . . . .lodging persons in prisons on foot of commital warrants IS the role of Gardaí

. . .the point being made here was that the Army has its own MP's and people taught dealing with awol soilders should be their role . . . .leaving police free to do what ever, even if it is a road traffic checkpont. People were expressing their opinions that they believed this should NOT be the role of Police . . . .it seems in the US that it is, but hey, people are still entitled to their opinions


Obviously in the US the legislature etc believe differently. Also from the OP's examples it seems quite common for the Civil Power to call on the Military for assistance with day to day policing.

civdef

Section 251 of the Defence Forces Act, 1954 would be the similar provision in Irish legislation. Presumably not used often.

Corcioch

civdef wrote: »

Section 251 of the Defence Forces Act, 1954 would be the similar provision in Irish legislation. Presumably not used often.

Similar- ish . . .there is no Defence Forces Issued Warrant.


It states that Gardai can arrest desterters . . . . but no warrant, no command to arrest, the act says May Arrest. There is no command to arrest.


251.—(1) Where an officer or man or a member of the Garda Síochána has reasonable grounds for suspecting that any person is a deserter or an absentee, he may without warrant arrest such person and thereupon the following provisions shall have effect, that is to say:—
[GA]
( a ) such person (in this subsection referred to as the arrested person) may demand that an inquiry into his arrest be made under the next following paragraph, and the person making the arrest shall inform the arrested person of his right under this paragraph;
[GA]
( b ) if the arrested person so demands, then—
[GA]
(i) the arrested person shall be brought before a Justice of the District Court or a Peace Commissioner and may in the meantime be detained in any Garda Síochána station;
[GA]
(ii) the Justice of the District Court or the Peace Commissioner before whom the arrested person is brought shall inquire into the arrest, and
[GA]
(I) if satisfied that the arrested person is a deserter or an absentee, shall forthwith cause the arrested person to be delivered into service custody or, until he can be so delivered, to be committed to some prison or Garda Síochána station for such time as appears to him reasonably necessary for the taking of steps to receive the arrested person into service custody,
[GA]
(II) if not so satisfied, shall order the release of the arrested person;
[GA]
(iii) the Justice of the District Court or Peace Commissioner before whom the arrested person is brought may from time to time adjourn the inquiry, and, if he so does, shall order that the arrested person be detained, during any such adjournment, in a prison or a Garda Síochána station;
[GA]
( c ) if the arrested person does not so demand, the person making the arrest may deliver him into service custody and pending such delivery the arrested person may, on the requisition in writing of the person making the arrest, be detained in any prison or Garda Síochána station.
[GA]
(2) Where a person surrenders himself to an officer or man or a member of the Garda Síochána and alleges that he is a deserter or an absentee, such officer, man or member of the Garda Síochána may deliver such person into service custody and pending such delivery such person may, on the requisition in writing of such officer, man or member of the Garda Síochána, be detained in any prison or Garda Síochána station.


. . . . . . . .I tried to find a definition of "man" in the act . . .but couldn't, maybe I didn't look hard enough.

concussion

Defence Acts 1954 to 1998 and Courts Martial Appeals Act 1983 Restatement, page 31

"The word "man" means a person who is for the time being a member of the Defence Forces, but does not include an officer."

"the word ‘‘officer’’, when used without qualification, means a person who—
(a) holds a commissioned rank in, and is for the time being an officer of, the
Permanent Defence Force, or
(b) holds a commissioned rank in, and is for the time being an officer of, the Reserve
Defence Force;"

Without qualification means it refers to commissioned officers. Where 'non-commissioned' is placed in front it refers to

"non-commissioned officer.
the expression ‘‘non-commissioned officer’’ means a man holding—
(a) any non-commissioned army rank, other than that of private, or
(b) any non-commissioned naval rank, other than that of seaman;"

Where 'man' is written, it is understood to mean 'woman' aswel.

AlekSmart

And then I saw this . . . .and my next thought was . . . . .again . . . .Only in America, . . . . .would some complete lunatic do something like that.

Corcioch,who knows this dude may well have drawn his inspiration from the Provo`s "modifications" carried out to a truck used at Portlaoise many years ago now......:)

discus

Great story MM!

I'm suprised at some of the more level-headed regular posters getting in such a tizzy over a police force carrying out an arrest warrant.

Del2005

Manic Moran wrote: »

Mainly to express my surprise (and approval) at the flexibility that the police showed. I had expected to have to go through a whole bunch of "Give me your number and I'll have someone look into it and call you back" or "I need to call to get guidance from my supervisor, it may take a while as the Captain doesn't work weekends." Instead, I got two friendly dispatchers, plus a deputy and a sergeant, all of whom were a bit bemused, but more than willing to make decisions on the spot on their own. A trait I find unfortunately rare in government agencies, where if something is a little out of the ordinary, one can expect all sorts of pain and inflexibility, and a trait whose existence, or lack thereof I am unaware of the status of in the Irish organisations.

I was kindof hoping to prompt some form of 'you know, we got a bizarre request once, and this is how we dealt with it' responses.

NTM

Maybe this thread is showing you the willingness for flexibility in our Government agencies.

discus wrote: »

Great story MM!

I'm suprised at some of the more level-headed regular posters getting in such a tizzy over a police force carrying out an arrest warrant.

+1

As Manic Moran has already pointed out a reservist going AWOL in the US, which is at war, is taken much more seriously then going AWOL from our Reserve Defence Force.

Corcioch

Del2005 wrote: »

Maybe this thread is showing you the willingness for flexibility in our Government agencies.




+1

As Manic Moran has already pointed out a reservist going AWOL in the US, which is at war, is taken much more seriously then going AWOL from our Reserve Defence Force.

At War . . . .Lmao . . . . .


Is that what you call it??


Going into a country and taking it over by means of armed force . . . .based on a complete lie and fabricated evidence is not a war . . . its an illegal occupation.

Like what the English did here for centuries . . .we were illegally occupied/ colonised.


Nothing has really changed from that colonoial model to modern Iraq . . . .they are still at the same craic. Iraq will have a version of home rule by the time the US forces leave. A puppet Gov controlled by Washington.

Shield

I think it's safe to assume a thread is no longer ES-related when it deviates off into a discussion about American politics.

Thread closed.