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Does Ireland still need an army?

124

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    Where you getting your figures from? The defence budget for 2013 is 677 million.

    Also Haiti currently has over 8,000 UN peacekeepers deployed there (including a few from Ireland), so I wouldn't necessarily be using them as an example of stability.

    I outlined a raft of additional roles that the DF undertakes in addition to the security of the state, who would you have do them instead, and why considering soldiers are the lowest paid of all public sector employees.
    It was 1.35 billion in 2010, which is close to 2 billion dollars.
    Glad to see it's been drastically cut but it's still not enough.
    Almost 2 million euros per day is too much for taxpayers.
    I've already stated who should do the work you've outlined.
    Our Army of long-term unemployed, and also non-violent offenders (tax-offenders etc) in the form of non-military National Service.
    A small nucleus of military trained volunteers similar to the T.A could be kept on to keep the military fetishists happy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    It was 1.35 billion in 2010, which is close to 2 billion dollars.
    Glad to see it's been drastically cut but it's still not enough.
    Almost 2 million euros per day is too much for taxpayers.
    I've already stated who should do the work you've outlined.
    Our Army of long-term unemployed, and also non-violent offenders (tax-offenders etc) in the form of non-military National Service.
    A small nucleus of military trained volunteers similar to the T.A could be kept on to keep the military fetishists happy.

    We spend 0.5% of our GDP on our Defence Forces - the lowest among all the OECD.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    It was 1.35 billion in 2010, which is close to 2 billion dollars.
    Glad to see it's been drastically cut but it's still not enough.
    Almost 2 million euros per day is too much for taxpayers.
    I've already stated who should do the work you've outlined.
    Our Army of long-term unemployed, and also non-violent offenders (tax-offenders etc) in the form of non-military National Service.
    A small nucleus of military trained volunteers similar to the T.A could be kept on to keep the military fetishists happy.

    Oakey dokey.

    How many people are long-term unemployed?
    How much would you "pay" them per week?

    What's your plan?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    Oakey dokey.

    How many people are long-term unemployed?
    How much would you "pay" them per week?

    What's your plan?
    I'd pay them a FAS wage.
    France has (or certainly had) a similar policy of National Service, which is obligatory for all, and entrants can choose between military, environmental, or social duty.
    Anyone unemployed for a certain period could be put into this programme for one year.
    Potholes to be filled, reforestation programmes, canals and beaches to be cleaned, parks and town centres to be kept clean, graffiti to be removed,old people to be looked after in rural areas....whatever.
    Endless list of work.
    This could be financed by our annual military expenditure, make the country a better place to live in and also boost the health of long term unemployed.

    As I said, I'd jump at the chance if I was unemployed....(I'm not unemployed, but rather a forced exile/emigrant).
    In fact I'd probably come back to Ireland if this project was running and avail of it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Local-womanizer


    Northwestener, you have no idea how the military works, and what it takes to have an effective army. Tax offenders, skangers as you call them and junkies would be missing a very important trait, that being the determination and self motivation to do the **** jobs that the army are drafted in to do in times of emergency.

    It has been pointed out to you the roles the military perform. The reason CITs are not robbed is because the army guard them. The reason nurses and doctors were able to treat isolated patients during the floods and cold snap was because of the soldiers. They even had to do the councils job in clearing footpaths in towns and cities so the likes of yourself could get around. They put their own personal safety at risk everyday when criminal gangs leave ieds lying about the country. Who else would walk up to an explosive device voluntarily? Never mind the fact the country still has subversive organisations still operating within its borders. The DF has done every thing asked of them in relation the cost cutting measures in the recent years, and have still been hit hard regarding barrack closures.

    People find it easy to criticise the DF as they don't see what they do, for good reason. Yet the soldiers still plough on, helping the very people who call for their jobs.

    They are like insurance, hopefully you won't need it but its nice to have it there.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,968 ✭✭✭✭Praetorian Saighdiuir


    I'd pay them a FAS wage.
    France has (or certainly had) a similar policy of National Service, which is obligatory for all, and entrants can choose between military, environmental, or social duty.
    Anyone unemployed for a certain period could be put into this programme for one year.
    Potholes to be filled, reforestation programmes, canals and beaches to be cleaned, parks and town centres to be kept clean, graffiti to be removed,old people to be looked after in rural areas....whatever.
    Endless list of work.
    This could be financed by our annual military expenditure, make the country a better place to live in and also boost the health of long term unemployed.

    As I said, I'd jump at the chance if I was unemployed....(I'm not unemployed, but rather a forced exile/emigrant).
    In fact I'd probably come back to Ireland if this project was running and avail of it.

    Soooo your plan is:

    Scrap the army branch of the DF, putting thousands of troops on the dole.
    Use the relatively small military budget to finance your National Service plan.
    Provide zero budget for the standing Air Corps/Naval Service.
    Improve the health of the long term unemployed.

    Who is presently paid to do the below jobs? Would your plan put more people on the dole as a result?

    Potholes to be filled.
    reforestation programmes.
    canals and beaches to be cleaned.
    parks and town centres to be kept clean.
    graffiti to be removed,old people to be looked after in rural areas.

    So, you are a self professed "forced exile" looking to tell us how we spend tax payers money when you presently are not an Irish taxpayer?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,203 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Have you ever looked at the politics forum? Of course we need an army to keep an eye on those who go on about "free state b****ds".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    Northwestener, you have no idea how the military works, and what it takes to have an effective army. Tax offenders, skangers as you call them and junkies would be missing a very important trait, that being the determination and self motivation to do the **** jobs that the army are drafted in to do in times of emergency.

    It has been pointed out to you the roles the military perform. The reason CITs are not robbed is because the army guard them. The reason nurses and doctors were able to treat isolated patients during the floods and cold snap was because of the soldiers. They even had to do the councils job in clearing footpaths in towns and cities so the likes of yourself could get around. They put their own personal safety at risk everyday when criminal gangs leave ieds lying about the country. Who else would walk up to an explosive device voluntarily? Never mind the fact the country still has subversive organisations still operating within its borders. The DF has done every thing asked of them in relation the cost cutting measures in the recent years, and have still been hit hard regarding barrack closures.

    People find it easy to criticise the DF as they don't see what they do, for good reason. Yet the soldiers still plough on, helping the very people who call for their jobs.

    They are like insurance, hopefully you won't need it but its nice to have it there.

    First of all I specifically mentioned non threatening prisoners for social or community based work.
    Skangers and junkies should be banged up.
    Private security guards (maybe former soldiers after I've de-mobbed them) are more than able of guarding cash transits. It's what most other countries do.
    I've never seen regular soldiers guarding cash vans anywhere else.
    As regards the cold snap, gritting or gorse fires etc, I've already explained this can be done under a National Service corps as in France, Spain etc.
    There, unemployed people are used to clear forests of deadwood to prevent gorse fires etc, and are called up when fires break out.

    As for saying I've no idea how the military work....I'm sorry, but you should direct this at yourself.
    You don't need a standing military Army for any of the roles you've mention.
    You need National Service (community, social, environmental service)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    I'd pay them a FAS wage.
    France has (or certainly had) a similar policy of National Service, which is obligatory for all, and entrants can choose between military, environmental, or social duty.
    Anyone unemployed for a certain period could be put into this programme for one year.
    Potholes to be filled, reforestation programmes, canals and beaches to be cleaned, parks and town centres to be kept clean, graffiti to be removed,old people to be looked after in rural areas....whatever.
    Endless list of work.
    This could be financed by our annual military expenditure, make the country a better place to live in and also boost the health of long term unemployed.

    As I said, I'd jump at the chance if I was unemployed....(I'm not unemployed, but rather a forced exile/emigrant).
    In fact I'd probably come back to Ireland if this project was running and avail of it.


    Good idea - we could call it "Skangers with Steyrs" - what could possibly go wrong?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 84 ✭✭lanyard


    Countries with no Army that have yet to collapse in anarchy.

    ...

    All perfectly able to maintain order, deliver cash transits and even put out the odd gorse fire.

    We waste between 1.5 and 2 billion dollars per-annum for vanity basically.

    The military gives the state it's stability. It was it's own military justice system which protects the state from anarchy. Only a soldier can be ordered to risk their lives to defuse an IRA bomb for example. Unlike the Gardaí, they cannot get blue-flu or they will be imprisoned. They are our last line of defence.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    Soooo your plan is:

    Scrap the army branch of the DF, putting thousands of troops on the dole.
    Use the relatively small military budget to finance your National Service plan.
    Provide zero budget for the standing Air Corps/Naval Service.
    Improve the health of the long term unemployed.

    Who is presently paid to do the below jobs? Would your plan put more people on the dole as a result?

    Potholes to be filled.
    reforestation programmes.
    canals and beaches to be cleaned.
    parks and town centres to be kept clean.
    graffiti to be removed,old people to be looked after in rural areas.

    So, you are a self professed "forced exile" looking to tell us how we spend tax payers money when you presently are not an Irish taxpayer?
    I pay taxes in Ireland (all my savings are there), yet refused dole when I went back etc as I've been out of the country for more than two years.
    This forced me to leave again.
    I've also paid substantial taxes working in Ireland since the mid 80's to the recent boom/crash.
    I'm an Irish citizen bud, just because I'm forced abroad to look for work, don't patronise me and assume I shouldn't have an opinion on the future of my country.
    I've been positive in my debate here and put forward options (up for debate) which function in the vast majority of countries. (I.E Banks get their own feckin security and not using taxpayers money and volunteer citizens being used to grit roads or put out the odd gorse fire)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Good idea - we could call it "Skangers with Steyrs" - what could possibly go wrong?
    Have you travelled abroad?
    Have you ever been in a country where the National Army do private security for private banks at the taxpayers tab?
    Care to share them with us?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Local-womanizer


    First of all I specifically mentioned non threatening prisoners for social or community based work.
    Skangers and junkies should be banged up.
    Private security guards (maybe former soldiers after I've de-mobbed them) are more than able of guarding cash transits. It's what most other countries do.
    I've never seen regular soldiers guarding cash vans anywhere else.
    As regards the cold snap, gritting or gorse fires etc, I've already explained this can be done under a National Service corps as in France, Spain etc.
    There, unemployed people are used to clear forests of deadwood to prevent gorse fires etc, and are called up when fires break out.

    As for saying I've no idea how the military work....I'm sorry, but you should direct this at yourself.
    You don't need a standing military Army for any of the roles you've mention.
    You need National Service (community, social, environmental service)

    The reason the army works is because the soldiers there are volunteers. They want to be there.

    You take this low level criminals and unemployed and force them to do something they don't want to do, it's just a waste of time. The quality of work would be terrible and who is there to make sure they turn up.

    You go on about setting up a national service to deal with emergencies, such as gorse fires, snow clearing etc. services already exist, but are unable to always carry out these jobs, so the DF is drafted in to fill the gap, at very little cost.

    CITs are paid for by the banks. I'd much rather having a trained soldier guarding my money rather than a private security guard armed with an assault rifle out on the Main Street. No matter what you say it's the discipline and training that a soldier has that sets them apart from a private security guard, effectively a civvie in a uniform.

    Anyway, if you disband the army, you would have what, 9000 soldiers out if work, that you want to draft in and pay to do community work? Why not concentrate on the budgets and the value for money in say the local councils, or the HSE?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,235 ✭✭✭returnNull


    Link to costs please.
    and in euro's too :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    So taxpayers should continue to pay 2 million a day just for the luxury of being able to protect the banksters money from being robbed.
    And my idea that the security (in the form of private guards like most countries) should come from Banker's profits is just barmy.
    Welcome to Ireland.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 605 ✭✭✭Todd Toddington III


    Want to save money disband the bloody HSE, a cash black hole like no other. Most civilised states budget 3 to 4 percent of gdp so we're getting away lightly at 0.5.

    No Irish army? watch the subversives and paramilitary forces make a big comeback with our old "friends" the British armed forces in to rescue us. Im sure you would love this scenario


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭Yitzhak Rabin


    So taxpayers should continue to pay 2 million a day just for the luxury of being able to protect the banksters money from being robbed.
    And my idea that the security (in the form of private guards like most countries) should come from Banker's profits is just barmy.
    Welcome to Ireland.

    Not sure if you're trolling or just a little dim. But CITs are just a small part of the service the DF provides, and its been pointed out before that the banks pay for the service.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    The reason the army works is because the soldiers there are volunteers. They want to be there.
    Exactly ....For many it will be their first ever job and a career to which they will give 21 years or more .Others like myself will have left a job to join up .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    Not sure if you're trolling or just a little dim. But CITs are just a small part of the service the DF provides, and its been pointed out before that the banks pay for the service.
    I have dealt (in a gentlemanly fashion) with all the "services" that you have alluded to.
    Maybe you haven't read my posts properly.
    Let's keep it civil.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭Norwesterner


    [oteorwesterner;84370912"]Disband the lot.
    Costa rica borderssome of the most dangerous nations on Earth and doesn't he an Army. It's also a major drug-transit country.
    We've no need for it.
    No threat of any invasion, and even if there was it would be Ra-heads and assorted homegrown militia doing the fighting as it's always been.
    The Chief of Staff of our Defence Forces is paid more than the Chief of Staff of the US Army.
    (Our Govts way of preventing any military coups), This is morally reprehensible.
    It's a huge bloated drain on taxpayers, serves no real purpose (private security guards paid by Banks can guard cash transits).
    And a voluntary armed militia (such as Territorial Army) can br trained if any threat arises.

    Want to save money disband the bloody HSE, a cash black hole like no other. Most civilised states budget 3 to 4 percent of gdp so we're getting away lightly at 0.5.

    No Irish army? watch the subversives and paramilitary forces make a big comeback with our old "friends" the British armed forces in to rescue us. Im sure you would love this scenario[/QUOTE]




    Scaremongering.
    At one point a few years ago a quarter of the dissident IRA prisoners in Portlaiose were former Defence Force members.
    There's a serving Defence Force member in jail in the North related to attempting to kill a PSNI officer.
    Then we've Gardai robbing money that was already robbed by criminals and was supposedly safe.
    We can all post "Reds under the Beds" tittle tattle to scare Joe and Josephine Soap into making decisions.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 605 ✭✭✭Todd Toddington III


    [/quote]

    Scaremongering.
    At one point a few years ago a quarter of the dissident IRA prisoners in Portlaiose were former Defence Force members.
    There's a serving Defence Force member in jail in the North related to attempting to kill a PSNI officer.
    Then we've Gardai robbing money that was already robbed by criminals and was supposedly safe.
    We can all post "Reds under the Beds" tittle tattle to scare Joe and Josephine Soap into making decisions.[/quote]

    Sources and links please?
    (Now who's scaremongering? :-\)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Have you travelled abroad?
    Have you ever been in a country where the National Army do private security for private banks at the taxpayers tab?
    Care to share them with us?

    You're asking the wrong question - has a cash in transit van ever been robbed while under the Army's escort?

    Better to spend a modest amount preventing a robbery than a significant amount investigating one.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,191 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    It isn't just cash escorts that need guarding , industrial explosives also have to escorted from quarry to quarry because it doesn't need spelling out what in the wrong hands they could be used for .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    mattjack wrote: »
    1. 1999
    An Air Corps helicopter crashed in dense fog in County Waterford, resulting in the deaths of its four-man crew. The Dauphin helicopter burst into flames, after it crashed down into a large sand dune at Tramore beach. The crew members, who were in their late twenties or early thirties, have been named as Captain Dave O'Flaherty, from Lucan in Dublin; Captain Michael Baker, from Wexford; Sergeant Paddy Mooney, from Meath; and Corporal Niall Byrne, from Dublin.
    The four were returning from a successful rescue mission.

    [4]

    2. On 16 December 1983, Private Patrick Kelly was killed in Derrada Woods, Ballinamore, along with Garda recruit Gary Sheehan. They were attempting to rescue a British businessman, Don Tidey, who had been kidnapped by the IRA.

    3. Leading Seaman Michael Quinn, 27, from Drogheda, died in 1990 during an attempt to rescue a Spanish fishing vessel that ran aground in a storm in Bantry Bay ...


    All things considered ,I think our Defences Forces do themselves justice.
    So? How many binmen or bricklayers died at work in the same period?
    well they way the government are running the country its like their trying to destroy the army all together with closing all the barrack's ,http://www.thejournal.ie/government-confirms-closure-of-four-military-barracks-280012-Nov2011/

    Oh noes, how will we suppress agrarian uprisings without a barracks in every county to put down the croppy scum.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Local-womanizer


    goose2005 wrote: »
    So? How many binmen or bricklayers died at work in the same period?



    Oh noes, how will we suppress agrarian uprisings without a barracks in every county to put down the croppy scum.

    So these people died putting themselves at great risk to save members of the public and all you can say is so? Do binmen and brick layers put the safety of the public before their own on a daily basis? Don't think so some how


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭MaroonAndGreen


    Yes we do, who knows when anything serious might happen that requires our army, we need to be ready.

    Expect the unexpected!


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭tdv123


    bnt wrote: »
    I think Ireland needs a bigger army, but not for the reasons you might think. They need to put together some "press gangs" to patrol the streets of the larger towns and cities, sweeping up the homeless and the skangers, and giving them something to do. Three square meals a day, free healthcare, physical training, and a paycheck - the price of which is serving your country in whatever capacity it needs. It might be civil defence, emergency response, ditch digging, or even as extras in the next epic adventure to be filmed here.

    PS: and bring in some American NCOs to run the platoons. Some no-nonsense types with no ambitions towards the Officer class.


    You can say what you like about the US military, but it's done a good job of keeping many young people off the streets, out of the gangs, and clear of drugs. (Not perfectly, of course, but pretty well.)

    Who exactly is paying for all of this?

    I'm sure Republicans would love another foreign military in Ireland.

    Countries need less army's not more.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You wonder why the country is awash with drugs? :rolleyes: Defence forces budget is 0.5% of GDP, The money the country would save from intercepting drugs and dodgey fags and the like would probably be many times this figure if we had an adequate sized navy.

    Every country is awash with drugs, regardless of the size of its military.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,642 ✭✭✭MRnotlob606


    tdv123 wrote: »
    Who exactly is paying for all of this?

    I'm sure Republicans would love another foreign military in Ireland.

    Countries need less army's not more.
    we should introduce conscription for a while get a few skangers off the streets


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,049 ✭✭✭discus


    bnt wrote: »
    PS: and bring in some American NCOs to run the platoons. Some no-nonsense types with no ambitions towards the Officer class.

    You can say what you like about the US military, but it's done a good job of keeping many young people off the streets, out of the gangs, and clear of drugs. (Not perfectly, of course, but pretty well.)

    I'd be more afraid of Irish or British NCO's than American ones.


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