Things that Declan Kidney needs to sort out, ASAP.

danthefan

1. He has essentially given up on the set piece. Buckley was eaten alive yesterday, and as soon as Court came on the scrum started to go forward, and he only got on because Buckley was injured. Anyone want to make a bet on which will start against NZ? Buckley is probably the 3rd best scrummaging TH in Ireland yet Kidney has decided he'll be starting in the RWC. Healy has also struggled scrummaging wise but he's shown he can scrummage with a decent TH, in fact he showed that yesterday. The front row has to be change.
2. The lineout. This was picked out well before the game, DOC and Ryan are not lineout specialists and MOD is in no way an international standard forward. He had no choice but to take MOD off, which went and made our lineout worse. The two best available lineout forwards in the country were at home scratching themselves. Absolute farce.
3. Giving younger players a chance: ties in with above, Cronin sat on the bench all game despite the complete lineout meltdown, which Best was a part of. Toner, superior to all three locks picked in the lineout, not even in the squad. SOB, the form backrow probably and a guy well able to make an impact can't even make the bench. Earls had to wait for an injury to be introduced.
4. The backline. Looked completely different from the one that's been playing for Leinster, which I really can't understand. Gaffney is a dinosaur at this stage, which is probably why Kidney keeps him around. Kidney seems completely incapable of bring the team to play the modern way. Furthermore there's very little pace in the backline which is why I would now make Earls a permanent fixture in the team.
5. Finally, get the **** over the fact you coached Munster for years and pick the guys that deserve it, not the guys who you know well or did a job for you 8 years ago or whatever.

Shelflife

I have to say that one of the things which used to irritate me during EOS reign was his unwillingness to use his bench, we now see kidney suffering from the same disease.

what exactly does it say to the bench when your opposite number is playing badly yet your not given a run.

look everybody has a bad day , but if youre playing ****e then you should be taken off regardless of whether your bod or poc. as a player on the bench what kidney is basically saying is that ----ya hes crap today but hes still better then you. your only here incase he gets injured.

Stev_o

danthefan wrote: »

1. He has essentially given up on the set piece. Buckley was eaten alive yesterday, and as soon as Court came on the scrum started to go forward, and he only got on because Buckley was injured. Anyone want to make a bet on which will start against NZ? Buckley is probably the 3rd best scrummaging TH in Ireland yet Kidney has decided he'll be starting in the RWC. Healy has also struggled scrummaging wise but he's shown he can scrummage with a decent TH, in fact he showed that yesterday. The front row has to be change.
2. The lineout. This was picked out well before the game, DOC and Ryan are not lineout specialists and MOD is in no way an international standard forward. He had no choice but to take MOD off, which went and made our lineout worse. The two best available lineout forwards in the country were at home scratching themselves. Absolute farce.
3. Giving younger players a chance: ties in with above, Cronin sat on the bench all game despite the complete lineout meltdown, which Best was a part of. Toner, superior to all three locks picked in the lineout, not even in the squad. SOB, the form backrow probably and a guy well able to make an impact can't even make the bench. Earls had to wait for an injury to be introduced.
4. The backline. Looked completely different from the one that's been playing for Leinster, which I really can't understand. Gaffney is a dinosaur at this stage, which is probably why Kidney keeps him around. Kidney seems completely incapable of bring the team to play the modern way. Furthermore there's very little pace in the backline which is why I would now make Earls a permanent fixture in the team.
5. Finally, get the **** over the fact you coached Munster for years and pick the guys that deserve it, not the guys who you know well or did a job for you 8 years ago or whatever.

1. Buckley was our best player down under and everyone on this forum including you agreed he should be given the opportunity to make this jersey i own. You weren't exactly complaining of his selection leading up to this match and sure he was the form TH.

Healy isn't even first choice at LH for Leinster in many peoples eyes he could easily have his spot taken by Wilkinson.


2. You honestly expect a rookie with 40 Leinster caps to suddenly make a lineout function against the best second row pairing in the world? That's a laughable suggestion. Toner was never going to be involved in this game. The only call that was questioned was Cullen's absence and that's purely down to the fact that he's been injured for the majority of this season and shoving him into the coal face this early seemed to be too risky in Kidneys eyes.

Croinn wouldn't of done any better in the lineout tbh.


3. When is the last time Earls played full back? In the worst weather Ireland have played in for some time and you want to reintroduce him back at FB where everyone knows his weakness lies in catching high balls. If he was to come on it should of been in place of BOD or D'Arcy.

SOB should have started ahead of Wallace who at this stage is past it ill agree with you there.


4. Should we just sack the whole coaching staff then since A) The back where ****e The backline were **** C)The Head Coach was ****? It's pretty bad if a centurion and a 50 cap midfield can't pull some leadership together and decide to play a different way then they were. If they can't do that hell id have very little confidence in them.

5. Take off the blue glasses.

danthefan

Stev_o wrote: »

1. Buckley was our best player down under and everyone on this forum including you agreed he should be given the opportunity to make this jersey i own. You weren't exactly complaining of his selection leading up to this match and sure he was the form TH.

Healy isn't even first choice at LH for Leinster in many peoples eyes he could easily have his spot taken by Wilkinson.


2. You honestly expect a rookie with 40 Leinster caps to suddenly make a lineout function against the best second row pairing in the world? That's a laughable suggestion. Toner was never going to be involved in this game. The only call that was questioned was Cullen's absence and that's purely down to the fact that he's been injured for the majority of this season and shoving him into the coal face this early seemed to be too risky in Kidneys eyes.

Croinn wouldn't of done any better in the lineout tbh.


3. When is the last time Earls played full back? In the worst weather Ireland have played in for some time and you want to reintroduce him back at FB where everyone knows his weakness lies in catching high balls. If he was to come on it should of been in place of BOD or D'Arcy.

SOB should have started ahead of Wallace who at this stage is past it ill agree with you there.


4. Should we just sack the whole coaching staff then since A) The back where ****e The backline were **** C)The Head Coach was ****? It's pretty bad if a centurion and a 50 cap midfield can't pull some leadership together and decide to play a different way then they were. If they can't do that hell id have very little confidence in them.

5. Take off the blue glasses.

All's well so, we should keep going as we are.

sock puppet

Stev_o wrote: »

1. Buckley was our best player down under and everyone on this forum including you agreed he should be given the opportunity to make this jersey i own. You weren't exactly complaining of his selection leading up to this match and sure he was the form TH.

That was before Ross started getting gametime for Leinster. Even his fitness hasn't been an issue this season.

Stev_o

danthefan wrote: »

All's well so, we should keep going as we are.

It's the first game ffs the over reacting here is just laughable. Everyone here just seems to be more interested in taking digs at other provincial players and defending their own it's pathetic.

OldRio

"Croinn wouldn't of done any better in the lineout tbh."

We never found out did we???

Stev_o

sock puppet wrote: »

That was before Ross started getting gametime for Leinster. Even his fitness hasn't been an issue this season.

Ross has done well for him and it's great that he's being showed some faith by Smith. However he was never going to become first choice over someone who had been our best player against the SH. He then looses out to Court who can play both sides. It's unfortunate but that's the way it goes.

danthefan

Stev_o wrote: »

It's the first game ffs the over reacting here is just laughable. Everyone here just seems to be more interested in taking digs at other provincial players and defending their own it's pathetic.

What's pathetic is the inability on this forum to have a discussion on the Ireland team without the likes of yourself pissing and moaning about provincialism.

Starting Cronin, Earls and Toner - please point out which province I'm having a go at and which I'm defending.

This is not the first game we've had problems, Ireland have won 3 games of rugby in 2010.

Stev_o

Stev_o wrote: »

It's the first game ffs the over reacting here is just laughable. Everyone here just seems to be more interested in taking digs at other provincial players and defending their own it's pathetic.

He didnt do that though. He pointed out some fairly valid concerns - the use of the bench being the most glaring. Why was Buckley kept on even though he was getting shunted back? Why was Best kept on after losing about a million lineouts? Why not have Cullen in the side instead of a second row plodder who struggles to make the Munster Magners squad? Reddan was kept on far too long. Stringer has been in superb form this season leading into the internationals. Why wait to make the substitution? Someone above pointed out that Kidney views the bench as a fallback - I totally agree.

tommy57

Ireland are lacking confidence trying to push plays when their not on. we were brutal yesterday alright, but not as bad as some people are saying. these are only matches to see what stage we are at at the moment and its only the first international of the season if we beat new zealand it will be the usual we're gonna win the world cup now. we have to see how we get on in the 6 nations to decide if we're that good or that bad. we've had great autumn results before and have gone on to under perform in the rest of the season so i wouldn't be panicking at this stage.

sock puppet

Stev_o wrote: »

Ross has done well for him and it's great that he's being showed some faith by Smith. However he was never going to become first choice over someone who had been our best player against the SH. He then looses out to Court who can play both sides. It's unfortunate but that's the way it goes.

Maybe, but our scrum was crap on the Summer tour. In light of that I think Ross deserves a run. He won't turn us into around or anything but he's a better scrummager than Buckley.

B0X

Court - Cronin - Ross with either Buckley or Healy on the bench.

A solid enough front row combination that I think should be tried.

lologram

danthefan wrote: »

What's pathetic is the inability on this forum to have a discussion on the Ireland team without the likes of yourself pissing and moaning about provincialism.

Starting Cronin, Earls and Toner - please point out which province I'm having a go at and which I'm defending.

This is not the first game we've had problems, Ireland have won 3 games of rugby in 2010.

Bang on the money. Sometimes when people from Leinster criticise Kidney/the Ireland set up, it's actually not over some petty tribalism thing and it's actually to do with sorting out our national side. If we can't criticise him just because he's from Munster and it will be seen as an anti-Munster bias, let's just pack in the attempt to ever get a truly national side together.

I was going to make a list of players I'd bring in and players I'd leave out to make the point that there was no provincial bias to it. But having to do that itself highlights a problem with provincial bias. They're all Irish players, leave it at that and let's try pick the best team please, without any bias pro- or anti- any province.

doomed

Problems are up front mainly. How often do you see teams who lose up front winning the game? We were obliterated.

With WC coming up these games are priceless opportunities of trying our players who might feature next year. MOD not an international class 2nd row and has no future at this level. No point playing him. Give someone else a try. Are all of the people who get a mention better than Bob Casey? Don't think so.

For front row start with people who can keep the scrum solid and do the basics in the lineout. The rest is a bonus. Court and Ross. Hooker? Would probably give Best another shot.

SOB for Wallace.

anonymous_joe

danthefan wrote: »

1. He has essentially given up on the set piece. Buckley was eaten alive yesterday, and as soon as Court came on the scrum started to go forward, and he only got on because Buckley was injured. Anyone want to make a bet on which will start against NZ? Buckley is probably the 3rd best scrummaging TH in Ireland yet Kidney has decided he'll be starting in the RWC. Healy has also struggled scrummaging wise but he's shown he can scrummage with a decent TH, in fact he showed that yesterday. The front row has to be change.

We have no set-pieces. Giving up on them for real would be fantastic. We relied on the set-piece entirely yesterday, but picked a team uncompetitive in that area.

And NZ will ream us in the set-piece too, despite not needing to.

[*]The lineout. This was picked out well before the game, DOC and Ryan are not lineout specialists and MOD is in no way an international standard forward. He had no choice but to take MOD off, which went and made our lineout worse. The two best available lineout forwards in the country were at home scratching themselves. Absolute farce.

MOD's shíte. Always has been. DOC surprised me with how poor he was.

Playing a lineout based game against Victor Matfield was retarded on every level though.

[*]Giving younger players a chance: ties in with above, Cronin sat on the bench all game despite the complete lineout meltdown, which Best was a part of. Toner, superior to all three locks picked in the lineout, not even in the squad. SOB, the form backrow probably and a guy well able to make an impact can't even make the bench. Earls had to wait for an injury to be introduced.

Youth isn't entirely crucial. A refusal to use it is dangerous, but experience has a place too. Saffers had more caps than we did yesterday, and it did show at times.

[*]The backline. Looked completely different from the one that's been playing for Leinster, which I really can't understand. Gaffney is a dinosaur at this stage, which is probably why Kidney keeps him around. Kidney seems completely incapable of bring the team to play the modern way. Furthermore there's very little pace in the backline which is why I would now make Earls a permanent fixture in the team.

Gaffney's brought very little to the table. Our backs haven't been properly used at all.

Earls should be used in some fashion, but with Fitzgerald, Kearney and Bowe you've definitely got pace. Not as much as the likes of O'Connor, Habana, or whatever, but as Habana's anonymous display as evidence, let's not forget that skill is more important than speed. FFS, Juan Smith managed to score from 60 metres against us. I'm faster than he is, and I'm seriously out of shape.

[*]Finally, get the **** over the fact you coached Munster for years and pick the guys that deserve it, not the guys who you know well or did a job for you 8 years ago or whatever.

Deffo. Also, get over your abysmal tenure at Leinster. MOD and Ryan's selections are inexcusable. Buckley over Court, makes sense in some regards, but not if you need to scrummage. Ross's omission makes no sense. As for the lack of Isaac Boss, best scrum-half in Ireland last season on form, best scrum-half in Leinster on form right now. (Even if he is flawed.)

Stev_o wrote: »

1. Buckley was our best player down under and everyone on this forum including you agreed he should be given the opportunity to make this jersey i own. You weren't exactly complaining of his selection leading up to this match and sure he was the form TH.

Where's Ross? Why play a set-piece oriented game with Buckley over Ross or Court?

Healy isn't even first choice at LH for Leinster in many peoples eyes he could easily have his spot taken by Wilkinson.

True, but Healy was our only front-row player not made to look like a spa by the Saffers yesterday. Did try and make himself look like one, but he was miles better than our other front row players.

2. You honestly expect a rookie with 40 Leinster caps to suddenly make a lineout function against the best second row pairing in the world? That's a laughable suggestion. Toner was never going to be involved in this game. The only call that was questioned was Cullen's absence and that's purely down to the fact that he's been injured for the majority of this season and shoving him into the coal face this early seemed to be too risky in Kidneys eyes.

You honestly expect a guy whose been mediocre for ten years to survive? At least Toner has potential, and he couldn't have been worse. He'd certainly not have let us down any more than MOD. No-one expects him to dominate Matfield, but I'd guess he'd have done better.

Croinn wouldn't of done any better in the lineout tbh.

Lineout was a clusterfcuk in general. You;re right about Cronin, no one player would have fixed that.

3. When is the last time Earls played full back? In the worst weather Ireland have played in for some time and you want to reintroduce him back at FB where everyone knows his weakness lies in catching high balls. If he was to come on it should of been in place of BOD or D'Arcy.

Earls shouldn't play 13 until he can defend at a world-class level. He is going to be phenomenal, he probably already is, but his midfield defence is poor. He's not a full-back either. I'd agree with you on him.

SOB should have started ahead of Wallace who at this stage is past it ill agree with you there.

Wallace isn't gone yet, but he's going for sure.

4. Should we just sack the whole coaching staff then since A) The back where ****e The backline were **** C)The Head Coach was ****? It's pretty bad if a centurion and a 50 cap midfield can't pull some leadership together and decide to play a different way then they were. If they can't do that hell id have very little confidence in them.

Defence was good, keep Kiss.

As for Kidney - fire him? No. Ask serious questions, fcuk yes. We were abysmal down south, not just on the pitch, but off it too, in terms of tactical development. That has not improved. We just spent a summer watching the Saffers get reamed weekly. Why didn't we copy a winning formula? Or at least attempt to. We've looked tactically inept since the GS anyway, so change is not unwelcome.

5. Take off the blue glasses.

Didn;t think he was especially biased there tbh. Our best player yesterday was Stringer by a country mile. Doesn't mean there's a Leinster bias to question non-Leinster players.

I was thinking about it yesterday actually, of the Munster team doing so well in the ML, and quite well in the HC, most of the stand out players aren't Irish. Howlett, ROG, Du Preez, only ROG is Irish.

phog

I dont think Stringer has an Irish contract at the moment, yet, he's the best No9 available and from Munster

Tim Robbins

I have always been suspect of Kearney's tackling and think he could have done a bit more for one the tries. I'd play Luke at FB and earls on the wing.

ROG and String great impact subs. I'd still start with Sexton though.

Maybe O'Brien should get a run and use Wallace to cover 6, 7 and 8.

Wally would also be a good impact sub.

phog

Tim Robbins wrote: »

I have always been suspect of Kearney's tackling and think he could have done a bit more for one the tries. I'd play Luke at FB and earls on the wing.

ROG and String great impact subs. I'd still start with Sexton though.

Maybe O'Brien should get a run and use Wallace to cover 6, 7 and 8.

Wally would also be a good impact sub.

2nd that for the Argentinan and All Blacks games but the for Samoian I'd make a few more changes just to give fringe players a chance to show what they have to offer.

wixfjord

phog wrote: »

2nd that for Autralia and All Balcks if it works, for Samoa I'd make more changes.

Argentina?
We're playing Samoa next.

phog

wixfjord wrote: »

Argentina?
We're playing Samoa next.

Poorly worded, I know we're playing Samoa next and I'd make a lot more changes fro them than I would for the Pumas or the All Blacks.

danthefan

phog wrote: »

Poorly worded, I know we're playing Samoa next and I'd make a lot more changes fro them than I would for the Pumas or the All Blacks.

I'd make a lot of changes and actually reward guys who play well with a start against NZ.

Though it'll be a cold day in hell before something like that happens.

outwest

danthefan wrote: »

1. He has essentially given up on the set piece. Buckley was eaten alive yesterday, and as soon as Court came on the scrum started to go forward, and he only got on because Buckley was injured. Anyone want to make a bet on which will start against NZ? Buckley is probably the 3rd best scrummaging TH in Ireland yet Kidney has decided he'll be starting in the RWC. Healy has also struggled scrummaging wise but he 's shown he can scrummage with a decent TH, in fact he showed that yesterday. The front row has to be change. healy wasnt much better. both sshould be dropped. ross for the next 2 games. buckly for the pumas. wilkonson could get a look in. healy was way worse then buckley.
2. The lineout. This was picked out well before the game, DOC and Ryan are not lineout specialists and MOD is in no way an international standard forward. He had no choice but to take MOD off, which went and made our lineout worse. The two best available lineout forwards in the country were at home scratching themselves. Absolute farce. im glad cullen and toner werent part ot that. i hope cullen is back. but neither wouldnt of sorted the lineout.
3. Giving younger players a chance: ties in with above, Cronin sat on the bench all game despite the complete lineout meltdown, which Best was a part of. Toner, superior to all three locks picked in the lineout, not even in the squad. SOB, the form backrow probably and a guy well able to make an impact can't even make the bench. Earls had to wait for an injury to be introduced. seanie and croinin to start the rest of the games. we will never know if their good enugh if their not given a chance
4. The backline. Looked completely different from the one that's been playing for Leinster, which I really can't understand. Gaffney is a dinosaur at this stage, which is probably why Kidney keeps him around. Kidney seems completely incapable of bring the team to play the modern way. Furthermore there's very little pace in the backline which is why I would now make Earls a permanent fixture in the team. a change at 12 would make a difference, earls or wallace. sexton wasnt great yesterday and rog will know start the new zealns game, rightly after getting us back into the game. but redden should never were green again. stringer ireland best scrum have, speed is key for attack
5. Finally, get the **** over the fact you coached Munster for years and pick the guys that deserve it, not the guys who you know well or did a job for you 8 years ago or whatever. i just like to say kidney seems to give every 50 50 call to munster, giver the other 3 provences players the same chance to get the experience of the irish squad.

good post dan. kidney needs to stop picking player who play poorly.

but il add 6 kidney needs to sort out full back. murphy or duffy should be given a shot.

phog

danthefan wrote: »

I'd make a lot of changes and actually reward guys who play well with a start against NZ.

Though it'll be a cold day in hell before something like that happens.

So from yesterday how many would get a start against the ABs - in my view it would be about three five at a push. The three subsTom Court, ROG and Stringer and then Ferris and possibly Heaslip.

I'd agree it should be a cold day in hell before we'd see that kind of wipeout.

subfreq

Whilst I wont say forget about scrums I think as long as you can hold your own for long enough to clear the ball you will be fine up to the next WC.

Even the best Refs are making a hash of calling scrums and it's a total lottery.

Ireland need to focus on the line out as it is one division of set play they could dominate on their own terms.

Toner should be blooded and finally Ireland could plan on good ball from the middle and back of a line out near enough every time.

This one change alone would radically transform Ireland's rugby.

Coaching re-education. I wont stop going on about it until DK shows some strategic change of direction.(Or the mods ban me)

stephen_n

danthefan wrote: »

1. He has essentially given up on the set piece. Buckley was eaten alive yesterday, and as soon as Court came on the scrum started to go forward, and he only got on because Buckley was injured. Anyone want to make a bet on which will start against NZ? Buckley is probably the 3rd best scrummaging TH in Ireland yet Kidney has decided he'll be starting in the RWC. Healy has also struggled scrummaging wise but he's shown he can scrummage with a decent TH, in fact he showed that yesterday. The front row has to be change.
2. The lineout. This was picked out well before the game, DOC and Ryan are not lineout specialists and MOD is in no way an international standard forward. He had no choice but to take MOD off, which went and made our lineout worse. The two best available lineout forwards in the country were at home scratching themselves. Absolute farce.
3. Giving younger players a chance: ties in with above, Cronin sat on the bench all game despite the complete lineout meltdown, which Best was a part of. Toner, superior to all three locks picked in the lineout, not even in the squad. SOB, the form backrow probably and a guy well able to make an impact can't even make the bench. Earls had to wait for an injury to be introduced.
4. The backline. Looked completely different from the one that's been playing for Leinster, which I really can't understand. Gaffney is a dinosaur at this stage, which is probably why Kidney keeps him around. Kidney seems completely incapable of bring the team to play the modern way. Furthermore there's very little pace in the backline which is why I would now make Earls a permanent fixture in the team.
5. Finally, get the **** over the fact you coached Munster for years and pick the guys that deserve it, not the guys who you know well or did a job for you 8 years ago or whatever.

1) You like many others on here place far too much emphasis on the scrum as if it's the b all and end of all in rugby. No matter what tight 5 we put out we will never dominate any of the top 8 countries in the world up front so apart from the 8-10 scrums in an average match you think it's more important to have good scrumagers rather than good ball carriers or players who are effective at cleaning out rucks. So even the ball we do get out of the scrum no matter what props are on will be slow and ineffective to release our backline.The simple truth is that Healy and Buckley can't play together so it's an either or and tbh even as a Leinster fan I'd have to say that Healy's from is at best patchy this season.

2) The lineout was never going to function properly yesterday with the way Best was throwing (not the first time) but Cronin is just as bad. MOD should never have been in the team as he is not and never will be an international class second row but at least Ryan would have provided physicality around the pitch which Toner lacks as 4 ball was never an option yesterday. The main F**k up yesterday was not throwing for 2 ball and getting safe slow ball to build though the phases as any intelligent team would have done.

3) Sean O'Brien should have been in the team that's a given, Wallace is and has been a great servant for Irish rugby but the AI's should be used to get SOB ready as he will (hopefully) defenitely play a part in the world cup.

The backline was not performing because the pack was not performing that's a very simple rule of the game of rugby and is why it is often said that forwards win games and backs decide by how much! This added to by the fact that Reddan was picked when he should never have been and hopefully never will again ahead of stringer who on current form and general ability will always be a far better player. Reddan with his six steps before passing is just a joke and it must have killed Sexton to watch the change in the ball that ROG got compared to the ****e he got all day.

You moan that Kidney has a munster bias and yet choose to ignore in your post any of the Leinster players that shouldn't have been in the team or played badly on the day and then cry fowl when people talk about provincial bias in your posts!

andrewdcs

In the spirit of rugby shopping lists, were I Deccie I'd:

1. Drop Reddan, never really shown it, bring in Boss. Start Stringer against Samoa. Hunt down a quick quick scrumhalf under 25 and bring him in to the squad. I'd have Darcy in at 9 over Reddan.
2. Drop MOD, not quite there, never going to be, bring in Cullen or Toner, probably Cullen as I'm really not sure of Toner yet.
3. Drop Kearney, (injured, hand forced, but he's been very average for a while now, very unconvincing) he'll reappraise his own game, stick Duffy in full. keep rest of backline, tinker after Samoa.
4. Drop Buckley to bench, start Court, see how Buckley goes against a tired or second string TH, as an open play wrecking ball in a final 20 he's terrorise most teams, but he's got to work with a better scrum coach.
5. Get a better scrum coach. The huge drop in positional play (in dry weather) means scrums are the platform du jour again, Wales could have beaten a very very impressive Aussie outfit if they'd scrummed more and kept ball in hand, absolutely pinned them, was embarrasing.
6. Start Sexton with Stringer, then bring in ROG at 50 (flag this to players before the game) then stick boss on for 15
7. Plead with IRFU to open all unsold / returned seats to kids for 15 and adults for 30. Fill the FFing stadium. Turn off the stupid "announcer" and farcical "oomph music" and get some Irish Home Crowd (tm) going or this golden egg laying goose will look like the FAIs leftover christmas turkey come the 6 nations.

handsomecake

need a new 12
david wallace out
doc out
kearney out
id actually play stringer

look at aus,no set piece at all against wales and beat them playing glorified tip rugby.o connell,o gara et al wont keep up with that pace over 80 mins come world cup time unless ireland add some dynamism in the carr,o brien,cronin mould.

donfers

danthefan wrote: »

1. He has essentially given up on the set piece. Buckley was eaten alive yesterday, and as soon as Court came on the scrum started to go forward, and he only got on because Buckley was injured. Anyone want to make a bet on which will start against NZ? Buckley is probably the 3rd best scrummaging TH in Ireland yet Kidney has decided he'll be starting in the RWC. Healy has also struggled scrummaging wise but he's shown he can scrummage with a decent TH, in fact he showed that yesterday. The front row has to be change.
2. The lineout. This was picked out well before the game, DOC and Ryan are not lineout specialists and MOD is in no way an international standard forward. He had no choice but to take MOD off, which went and made our lineout worse. The two best available lineout forwards in the country were at home scratching themselves. Absolute farce.
3. Giving younger players a chance: ties in with above, Cronin sat on the bench all game despite the complete lineout meltdown, which Best was a part of. Toner, superior to all three locks picked in the lineout, not even in the squad. SOB, the form backrow probably and a guy well able to make an impact can't even make the bench. Earls had to wait for an injury to be introduced.
4. The backline. Looked completely different from the one that's been playing for Leinster, which I really can't understand. Gaffney is a dinosaur at this stage, which is probably why Kidney keeps him around. Kidney seems completely incapable of bring the team to play the modern way. Furthermore there's very little pace in the backline which is why I would now make Earls a permanent fixture in the team.
5. Finally, get the **** over the fact you coached Munster for years and pick the guys that deserve it, not the guys who you know well or did a job for you 8 years ago or whatever.

quelle surprise, no mention of our half-backs....agree with some of the points but a quite one-eyed analysis

corny

stephen_n wrote: »

1) You like many others on here place far too much emphasis on the scrum as if it's the b all and end of all in rugby. No matter what tight 5 we put out we will never dominate any of the top 8 countries in the world up front so apart from the 8-10 scrums in an average match you think it's more important to have good scrumagers rather than good ball carriers or players who are effective at cleaning out rucks. So even the ball we do get out of the scrum no matter what props are on will be slow and ineffective to release our backline.The simple truth is that Healy and Buckley can't play together so it's an either or and tbh even as a Leinster fan I'd have to say that Healy's from is at best patchy this season.

Look we struggle to get passed first phase most of the time. The level of continuity in Irish play is shocking even when you compare it to our NH neighbours. Attacking off the set piece has always been very important to us. We're still trying to play that game its just we've absolutely no platform these days with a **** scrum and no POC in the lineout. Personally i'd love to see Jamie Heaslip firing off the back of a solid platform rather than being cut in two going backwards all the time.

For me its not coincidence we're losing games. If Kidney changes tack and brings in an attack coach who specialises in continuity and not just first phase attack (like Gaffney) then i'd agree with you more dynamic players might be needed but thats not going to happen. Back to the very basics of the game is whats needed.

ALH-06

subfreq wrote: »

Whilst I wont say forget about scrums I think as long as you can hold your own for long enough to clear the ball you will be fine up to the next WC.

Except when we're defending a scrum on our own 5 yard line, Buckley and Healy get driven back and the entire backrow is therefore taken out of the defensive line. Try time.

Danger_dave1

stephen_n wrote: »

1) You like many others on here place far too much emphasis on the scrum as if it's the b all and end of all in rugby. No matter what tight 5 we put out we will never dominate any of the top 8 countries in the world up front so apart from the 8-10 scrums in an average match you think it's more important to have good scrumagers rather than good ball carriers or players who are effective at cleaning out rucks. So even the ball we do get out of the scrum no matter what props are on will be slow and ineffective to release our backline.The simple truth is that Healy and Buckley can't play together so it's an either or and tbh even as a Leinster fan I'd have to say that Healy's from is at best patchy this season.

England vs Australia 2007 world cup , south africa vs B & I lions 2009 ,

Two games were the scrum won the game, line out is more important that scrum , but you still need stability on your own scrum for the majority of a game otherwise your going to struggle to win games of rugby at that standard. So id rather have a functioning Scrum and strong lineout. If you need to play a high tempo game change the game at 50 + mins.

I agree with ya that buckley and healy cant play together so you have to look at the replacments for either one Buckley= Court/Ross/Hayes. Healy = Horan/Court( only really back up) /hagan .

Morf

andrewdcs wrote: »

• Get a better scrum coach. The huge drop in positional play (in dry weather) means scrums are the platform du jour again, Wales could have beaten a very very impressive Aussie outfit if they'd scrummed more and kept ball in hand, absolutely pinned them, was embarrasing.

Greg Feek, the Leinster scrum "consultant" is working with the squad currently. Nobody is complaining about his work with Leinster.

bananabanana

I don't understand some people's calls for O'Gara to start the Samoa game ahead of Sexton. Yes he came on and changed the game but that was primarily as a result of the quick ball that he got from Stringer. We know what he can do whereas Sexton needs as much experience as he can get before the world cup. Start Sexton with Stringer and see what sort of impact he can have with quick ball.

My team would be:

1 Healy - see how he gets on with a decent front row
2 Cronin - deserves a chance after Best's horror show
3 Court - made an impact off the bench, deserves to start
4 Cullen - in for his lineout ability alone.
5 Toner - we know what DOC can do, time to give Toner a chance
6 Leamy - Ferris was ok but on form Leamy deserves to start
7 Heaslip - had a good game against SA, no need to change
8 O'Brien - form back row in ireland
9 Stringer - obvious
10 Sexton - see how he plays with stringer
11 Earls - kearney injury. earls also needs gametime
12 Wallace - D'arcy wasn't great
13 BOD - hasn't played much - could do with another game before NZ
14 Bowe - why change a good thing?
15 Fitzgerald - better suited to new rules than kearney

phog

donfers wrote: »

quelle surprise, no mention of our half-backs....agree with some of the points but a quite one-eyed analysis

No surprise at all, really.

phog

bananabanana wrote: »

I don't understand some people's calls for O'Gara to start the Samoa game ahead of Sexton. Yes he came on and changed the game but that was primarily as a result of the quick ball that he got from Stringer. We know what he can do whereas Sexton needs as much experience as he can get before the world cup. Start Sexton with Stringer and see what sort of impact he can have with quick ball.

TBH, I'd start him for the next two games at least but that's on the basis of giving him experience and seeing how he manages with the other scrumhalfs not on what I saw him doing on Saturday.

myflipflops

We need to stop playing people who simply are not up to international standard even at their best. Mick O'Driscoll is regularly flagged as being below even at the top of his game but I would also place Reddan in this category. Rory Best is getting there too.

Reddan and O'Driscoll should not start again for Ireland barring numerous injuries in the positions. As a Leinster fan, i actually think it would be good for Reddan to go back to England so Paul O'Donoghue can get more game time. Reddan is a fine player at club/provincial level, just below Test standard.

Saturdays game depressed me most simply because I can't say there were a lot of selections I disagreed with (only MOD and Reddan), simply lots of players who did not look up to scratch. Eddie O'Sullivan had an inability to change things up but Kidney appears to be more hamstrung by options rather thanfear of change. This is the coach who dropped Stringer and Payne for O'Leary and Hurley going into an away HEC quarter final in Gloucester. He has shown the ability to make big decisions before.

twinytwo

1) Maybe they should have considered a roof for lansdowne?

2) The Stadium being half empty didnt help.

3) Stringer and Rog make good impact subs... except whats the point if they are only brough on for 10/15 mins

4)Kidney is afraid to make subs, and he was sitting in the stand watching??. We could all for the most part see what was going wrong and who needed to be brought on. Kidney clearly cant.

5) The game plan for SA sould have been kick and get drico and bowe in a one on one with thier opposites as much a possible thats where the weakness was. The ball was like a bar of soap so we should have had them trying to catch it as much as possible.

6) Kearney should be dropped, no defence,no positioning,no vision and seriously lacks pace.

Trojan

Quit the provincial sniping. Next mention gets a week off.

bamboozle

i'm hoping the management have learnt a great deal from the SA match and MOD will be seen no more in an irish jersey.

Cant understand how naively we played into SA's hands by kicking so much ball into touch.

Wallace looked completely disinterested to me, when smith intercepted for his try you can see wallace in the background casually jogging back and Heaslip tears past him busting a gut to get back.

Court had a big impact in scrums when introduced.

Sexton was sitting very deep when receiving the ball from redden, rarely attacked the gain line.

Sport101

bamboozle wrote: »

Cant understand how naively we played into SA's hands by kicking so much ball into touch.

Yeah, this was an incredibly stupid tactic.

The other tri nations teams figured out how to beat the South Africans pretty easily this year, you don't kick to touch and you get their big forwards to move all around the park and you don't let them compete for your lineout by taking quick lineouts. Its not like we don't have the backs to run back the ball from deep. It was interesting to see when Rog came on he had so little faith in Best's throwing the he opted not to take a kick to the corner (when 7 points down) for the attacking lineout, and decided to tap and go. Why did it take until the 70th minute to figure this out (we lost 6 lineouts to out of twelve on our own throw and another three were slapped back to Reddan, who is slow enough at the best of times, so was always going to be under pressure)?

Clearly Kidney doesn't watch too many tri nations games. Under the new interpretation of the rules its harder now to turnover ball on the ground and with the speed of our backrow and backs we should have beaten this poor, one dimensional South African side. That performance showed a worrying lack of progression from the last world cup, and a continued misplaced reliance on set pieces. For once Peter de Villiers was on the money.

jacothelad

I've just re-watched the whole game. In regard to the line out, there were a number of factors that ruined it.

The first and most obvious one was that when you are playing against Matfield you don't allow him to read where you are throwing the ball. The various pods lined up so slowly a blind aardvark could have worked it out never mind the guy credited as the best reader of opponents line-outs in the world.

Secondly Best takes an age to throw the ball in. Actually he was mostly accurate with his throws, though one was called crooked by the ref. Best, like Cronin, also lobs the ball up slowly. (Fla bullets it in and is much less likely to have it robbed).It was just that by the time he'd had a cup if tea and a Kit-Kat and the pods had ambled to their positions, Matfield, Botha and Spies all knew exactly where the ball was going. They simply closed the gap and jumped across ruining the throw-in.

Thirdly, MOD kept calling the ball to himself where Matfield stole it repeatedly. MOD was so slow and telegraphed getting in the air that he hardly got his hands on the ball. If it was to the tail the tall S.A. back-rowers knew it was coming and lifted Smith or Spies earlier, higher and faster. S.A knew MOD was going to be the main 'go to' guy and simply destroyed everything that came his way. Yet he still kept making the calls for Best to throw to 4 or the back.
So, a combination of glacially slow, lobbed throws from Best and quite frankly daft, unimaginative calling were at the heart of the catastrophes that was the line out. Cronin was actually lucky he didn't get thrown in to that mess. He'd have been made to look as much a chump as Best

Best and MOD between them caused the problems in equal measure, one with technique and the other with lack of thought. Best actually showed up very well around the park and had to scrummage well as the S.A. tight head had no competition from Healy and simply bored in on him. It's just as well he was able to stand the pressure because neither of the props could. He needs to go back to the drawing board with his throws. i doubt if he can.

I am led to believe that the tight head holds the scrum together. Buckley can't do this. Some poster claim that he has had a good season so far. I disagree. I think they are seeing what the want to see and ignoring him getting hoked. As for the myth that he is good in the loose, he was good v. Toulon seconds. He does a lot of posturing but little actual work. It's a pity. he could be a real wrecking ball of a player - but he isn't. He was totally a.w.o.l. on Saturday. Healy frequently resembled a pretzel at times, he runs about a lot but from watching the game again, he actually did little that was effective like Buckley and gave away the ball and penalties. I don't understand why they persist with Healy game after game when it is clear that he isn't playing well enough. have him on the bench if they want him in the squad but he isn't progressing very much.

Wallace looks like a man playing on borrowed time. Perhaps he hasn't recovered from his back injury. I also think that he is no longer a credible choice at 7. He was missing in action for large parts of the game. I never thought he was exactly a 7 but he is a great 6.

Ferris and Heaslip played pretty well all things considered. It's hard to actually say what DOC did or didn't do so I won't make the attempt. D.Ryan has to be very lucky that Deccie sees something in him that few others do. He, like Healy has failed to progress and I fear is over-rated quite a bit.

Reddan was execrable and directly at fault for both tries. His passing was limp and slow, his kicking was dull though he didn't do much thankfully.

It's hard to be critical of the backs as they got little possession that was decent. I thought Kearney had his least effective game for Ireland since his last 'least effective game for Ireland'.:rolleyes:

I'm not exactly sure what Ireland wish to get from the game v. Samoa. They have to win it but they have to give new or less capped players a game so I suppose something like:

Court
Cronin
Ross
Cullen
Toner
Muldoon (he's in the squad, may as well use him)
Leamy
SOB

Stringer
ROG
Trimble
P. Wallace
Fitzgerald
Earls
J.Murphy

Varley: Wilkinson: Ryan (only because he's in the squad): Boss: Sexton: Ferris: Duffy:

thehighground

jacothelad - I wouldn't write Buckley off just yet. He was the (one) of the best players against the ABs on the summer tour. His recent good form wasn't just against Toulon.

I think you are being a bit too critical of David Wallace - the reason why you didn't see so much of him carrying ball was because he was Ireland's top tackler.

Ireland spent the whole day defending (double the number of tackles to SA) The Ireland forwards must have been knackered.

The stats

http://www.espnscrum.com/south-africa-tour-2010/rugby/match/104318.html

Trojan

Interesting that Best made 13 tackles, joint most on the team along with Wallace. All the forwards made a lot of tackles (props: Healy 11, Buckley 6, Court 3).

Ireland South Africa
6 won, 6 lost Lineouts on own throw 16 won, 1 lost

ಠ_ಠ

irishbucsfan

thehighground wrote: »

jacothelad - I wouldn't write Buckley off just yet. He was the (one) of the best players against the ABs on the summer tour. His recent good form wasn't just against Toulon.

I think you are being a bit too critical of David Wallace - the reason why you didn't see so much of him carrying ball was because he was Ireland's top tackler.

Ireland spent the whole day defending (double the number of tackles to SA) The Ireland forwards must have been knackered.

The stats

http://www.espnscrum.com/south-africa-tour-2010/rugby/match/104318.html

I was all for starting Buckley. I figured what he would fail to contribute in the scrum he would make up for around the park, but he didn't.

I think it's time to let either Ross or Court have a shot.

I wouldn't be as critical of Wallace, I thought he was very good.

little173

A few points:

1. I think the principal reason for the kicking game especially in the late first half/second half was two fold. Firstly after the earlier errors there was a need to play for territory but more importnantly the SA full back has a terrible kick. If you look back on it he would barely kick the ball back to the 10 yard line. Sexton saw this and could make excellent territory and possesion, problem was we couldnt win the lineout.

2. There were so many scrums because of our handling errors, so it doesnt become so much of an issue if we hold onto the ball for longer periods.

3. The use of subs is a complex debate. The coaches ( and not just DK!) that you need to give a fella a decent crack on the pitch if he has been picked in the first place. It effects the player and the team if you are going to be hauled off after 20 mins if you throw a few crock lineouts. If you arent good enough you shouldnt be there in the first place.

To that end, wholesale changes are also not the answer. The team did not gel, a lot of handling errors and a poor lineout. No-one was saying MOD was useless when he was dominating Toulon in the HC. Also Cullen is a 4, front jumper so that is only a DOC vs Cullen call. Sexton did okay and generally people agreed with the initial selections other that SOB and MOD.

Matfield is different class, POC at his very best can live with him but he was always going to bully us. The lack of leadership and ability to change plan was the worry for me.

The only good thing is that the AB front 5 looks their weakest for a while due to their injuries so may not be all bad!

Luckycharm

People keep quoting Buckleys great game against NZ which is true but also it is true there were only about 4 scrums in the whole match. He was v poor in the OZ game when our scrum got minced once again. I was all for starting him but until he sorted out his scrummaging he can't start would not mind seeing him on the bench. I think he is injured for the rest of the AI's anyway- if Kidney picks Hayes - i give up!
MOD and reddan were awful, Best continued his form from the scotland game really bad! Our basic skills were very poor and we have been shown up in the scotland, oz and Bok games - so many unforced errors or going for miracle balls. Jury still out on Sexton but hard to judge him with such bad ball- let him start with Stringer as would really fear for us starting with Stringer and rog against the All blacks - remember the june test. I am still waiting to see some seen work from DOC- Juan smiths intercept came from a slapped down ball from DOC.
Would like to see Court, cronin, ross, cullen/toner, SOB, stringer, duffy and earls get runs in the next few games.

d'Oracle

andrewdcs wrote: »

In the spirit of rugby shopping lists, were I Deccie I'd:

1. Drop Reddan, never really shown it, bring in Boss. Start Stringer against Samoa. Hunt down a quick quick scrumhalf under 25 and bring him in to the squad. I'd have Darcy in at 9 over Reddan.

I'm sorry, I believe you have something Crazy on your keyboard.
The last thing we need is to bring in a scrumhalf who is slower to take the ball, prone to abject mentalism and goes for a brisk mountain hike before passing the ball.

Also on the general, SA would have murdered Ross as much as they murdered Mushy.
They probably would have murdered most of our available tights.
Court looked steady and for that should be given the nod against Argie.

heybaby

Luckycharm wrote: »

People keep quoting Buckleys great game against NZ which is true but also it is true there were only about 4 scrums in the whole match. He was v poor in the OZ game when our scrum got minced once again. I was all for starting him but until he sorted out his scrummaging he can't start would not mind seeing him on the bench. I think he is injured for the rest of the AI's anyway- if Kidney picks Hayes - i give up!
MOD and reddan were awful, Best continued his form from the scotland game really bad! Our basic skills were very poor and we have been shown up in the scotland, oz and Bok games - so many unforced errors or going for miracle balls. Jury still out on Sexton but hard to judge him with such bad ball- let him start with Stringer as would really fear for us starting with Stringer and rog against the All blacks - remember the june test. I am still waiting to see some seen work from DOC- Juan smiths intercept came from a slapped down ball from DOC.
Would like to see Court, cronin, ross, cullen/toner, SOB, stringer, duffy and earls get runs in the next few games.

MOD, buckley and reddan are not international standard full stop. MOD is only in the munster side because of POC's extended absence, the sooner POC is back the better, rarely has our line out been so poor.

Buckley is what ? 29 now, and aside from being a big guy and putting in a decent performance against the all blacks, he shows little promise of developing into a tight head prop of any standing, he was poor again against the boks.

Reddan purely and simply cannot , doesnt and wont pass the ball quickly, the two seconds he takes to pass the ball from the bottom of a ruck are crucial, he offers little in the loose or going forward i say ditch him for strings, who will at least whip the ball out wide at speed.

Again I say Kearney is a one trick pony, world class under the high ball, I recognise his scoring a try versus the boks, but he is fundamentally flawed going forward, i feel he teased us all when he burst onto the international scene versus the all blacks a couple of years back, he's been a big disappointment ever since, time for mr murphy to make a return.

Darcy has done very little exciting in the green jersey in quite some time, and dont even start me on rory best, there is absolutely no excuse in not being able to hit your own target man in the lineout, but do it against the boks and you will be crucified, flannery, get well soon please.

This squad needs to be schooled on the basics of handling a rugby ball. Things like passing the rugby ball to another team mate while running, with out dropping it, seem to be beyond this lot. Oh and heres an idea, why not attempt to pass the ball to one of your team mates while you are in the process of being tackled? i think they call it offloading, the kiwis, ozzies, and boks all swear by it!! Try holding onto possession for a change rather than just handing the ball back to the opposition so they can run at us, that way we wont ened up giving away needless penalties at the breakdown. If you're going to kick, kick for territory, ie kick the ball over the line, rather than kicking to the opposition's speedy full back who more than likely can off load in the tackle.

Its pathetic, that at this stage in the lifetime of this 'golden generation' of players we are being undone by such amateurism both on and off the pitch. The grand slam is but a distant memory and we are reeling from our 6th defeat in a row which is a record for an irish team in the professional era, the world cup is only a year away, we could realistically lose all 4 games in this autumn series..where to go form here??:(

Luckycharm

heybaby wrote: »

MOD, buckley and reddan are not international standard full stop. MOD is only in the munster side because of POC's extended absence, the sooner POC is back the better, rarely has our line out been so poor.

Buckley is what ? 29 now, and aside from being a big guy and putting in a decent performance against the all blacks, he shows little promise of developing into a tight head prop of any standing, he was poor again against the boks.

Reddan purely and simply cannot , doesnt and wont pass the ball quickly, the two seconds he takes to pass the ball from the bottom of a ruck are crucial, he offers little in the loose or going forward i say ditch him for strings, who will at least whip the ball out wide at speed.

Again I say Kearney is a one trick pony, world class under the high ball, I recognise his scoring a try versus the boks, but he is fundamentally flawed going forward, i feel he teased us all when he burst onto the international scene versus the all blacks a couple of years back, he's been a big disappointment ever since, time for mr murphy to make a return.
Darcy has done very little exciting in the green jersey in quite some time, and dont even start me on rory best, there is absolutely no excuse in not being able to hit your own target man in the lineout, but do it against the boks and you will be crucified, flannery, get well soon please.

This squad needs to be schooled on the basics of handling a rugby ball. Things like passing the rugby ball to another team mate while running, with out dropping it, seem to be beyond this lot. Oh and heres an idea, why not attempt to pass the ball to one of your team mates while you are in the process of being tackled? i think they call it offloading, the kiwis, ozzies, and boks all swear by it!! Try holding onto possession for a change rather than just handing the ball back to the opposition so they can run at us, that way we wont ened up giving away needless penalties at the breakdown. If you're going to kick, kick for territory, ie kick the ball over the line, rather than kicking to the opposition's speedy full back who more than likely can off load in the tackle.

Its pathetic, that at this stage in the lifetime of this 'golden generation' of players we are being undone by such amateurism both on and off the pitch. The grand slam is but a distant memory and we are reeling from our 6th defeat in a row which is a record for an irish team in the professional era, the world cup is only a year away, we could realistically lose all 4 games in this autumn series..where to go form here??:(

I would rather see Duffy or even Luke Fitz play Fullback before going back to murphy- good going forward but his defence still leaves alot to be desired - time for new blood.