How do we solve our economic crisis?

AckwelFoley

We are where we are, the purpose of this thread is to suggest what you believe are the solutions and to debate them and who you feel are the best to do it.

If your solution is merely "change current corrupt govenment" and or "cut all politicans salaries" this thread isnt for you - as neither of these on their own will come close to solving the problem... they're among my solutions but a small part of it.

I'll start:


I do feel we need a change of government - well in essance a general election which will in turn bring about a change of power, not for the sake of it, but i think it to "clear the air" - i think however the main reason is to bring about political stability if only for half a government term, one of the reasons the bond markets are screwing us and increasing is because of the political uncertainty on top of the econimic ones, i think the fact that their is doubt over the budget being passed is reason enough.
Suspend the budget until after a general election.

Obviously the unavoidable elephant in the room - our budget deficit - it has to be addressed - the fact that the economy is not generating wealthmeans we need to primarly cut expenditure then look at taxation.

- I feel we have to cut the social welfare, its the biggest cost we need to get back down to 1990 levels.

- Politican salaries and expenses need to be addressed, if merely for the optics rather than significant savings, it should make cuts in social spending more palatible for the electorate

- Reduce or corperate tax on foreign investment, yes their profits leave the country, but the employment is here and we need people employed and off state benefit.

- Slashing of local authority budgets - i know first hand that at this time of year their are county and town councils spending money on things they dont need in order to spend the 2010 budget, if they dont they lose the unspent amount off nexy years budget - this is waste and serious waste.

- We need to reduce the public sector wage bill, We dont need 1 man to dig a hole and 3 to look at him, we also dont need 2 managers looking after those 4 men.

- Property tax, i dont want to see it, if purely for selfish reasons, however we need one, i would suggest that if the government that introduce propose it as an emergency measure for x number of years i think it may become more palitable for people, perhaps it could be made exempt or written off againt stamp duty for people that buy a house, which may contribute to stimulation in house sales and therefore a source of revenue

I think that we need more communication from our leaders, i think we should have a bi annual "state of the nation" address. Perhaps its a soapbox for propeganda, perhaps its a portal for information

I dont think that the solutions ive proposed are original or wholly the solution

zing zong

I could not agree more, I think this could be a very interesting thread

great points and well made

a few suggestions of my own would be:

actual real direct accountability for all ministers would perhaps keep them on the ball when it comes issues relating to their department, for example, a succession of fvck ups (3 stikes?) would mean they get the boot, sans ANY pension at all or monetary compensation. and any SERIOUS fvck ups, ala the bank bailouts, would lead to immediate criminal investigation, and if found to be wreckless, sent to prison ( i know this wont solve the situation we have now, but it could going forward prevent it)

audit, audit, audit, we need a minister for value, if we aint getting the best price/value for our tax, it gets the chop/is cancelled/is improved

bi annual "state of the nation" is a sorely needed task that needs to get going, communication in general is lacking, every department needs to make a regular (weekly?) statement, televised if possible, regarding the issues of the time that concerns them

state agencies should not be so autonomous, ala HSE/FAS, where they can keep info from the govenment, and hide how they do and dont spend our tax, all open, all the time, under direct control of the various state departments, and in keeping with total accountability for the ministers

various council jobs should be outsourced to the prison population ( i dont mean gang members and rapists etc etc, i mean the rest) this would seriously improve the expense on city/county councils, no reason a guy in prison for a fine or for selling pirate DVDs cant dig/fill a hole, or sweep the street and empty bins etc

all dole should have terms attached, for example, 18 months standard dole and you get the time to search for work, if after 18 months you cant secure a job, you MUST be in an education scheme, or a CE/state appointed job, unless you can provide valid proof as to why you cant get an education/training/or take a state/council appointed job. this would seriously shrink the amount of "life longers" on the dole, and stop it being a culture rather than a service to help out the genuine folks that have lost their jobs

get rid of all the bull such as property tax and various stealth tax/levies, have only four or five tax brackets dependent on income, and all income taxable, the individual pays income tax and nothing else

let irish companies (SME) start ups trade tax free for two years to help them get the ball rolling, and all tax benefits in general be for irish companies rather than foreign companies, so that we can become self reliant for employment

Cavehill Red

Cancel the bank guarantee for all but depositors.

Scrap NAMA and let property find it's free market level.

Jail the banksters.

New government.

Of course even that, plus shocking cuts, won't save us. Sooner or later, we're going to Mrs Merkel's bailout fund to trade our sovereignty for some Euromarks.

That or the IMF.

MagicSean

Legalise and tax marijuana and prostitution. Massive earning potential.

Allow ordinary citizens to buy 5% bonds from the government. Revenue generating and allows us to invest in our own future.

Serious investigation into welfare fraud.

Shut down government departments. Do we really need a group to monitor how much the Irish language is being implemented.

Reduce wage bill

Suspend Seanad and hence eliminate all expenses.

Suspend metro project.

House those on rent allowance in property owned by Nama and eliminate the allowance.

Randomly audit welfare recepients on a weekly basis and ensure no money is going to non essentials.

Cavehill Red

k_mac wrote: »

Randomly audit welfare recepients on a weekly basis and ensure no money is going to non essentials.

The shopping police? :eek:

duckysauce

take corrib gas field off bp , and don't let Dalkey one get Raped

hinault

The root cause of our problems I think is our political system and the upper civil service.

All of the financial chicanery, the duplicity and lies of the banks to the inexorable rise in the value of land prices to the appointment of lackeys at the CB and Financial Regulators office, came about as a result of a flawed
political/administrative system which has crippled our country for at least the next decade.

The upper echelons of the civil service coupled with the inert political system needs to be dismantled and replaced by something which is accountable and transparent.

I have no difficulty with the IMF walking in here and scorching this country.
I just hope that in doing so they will dismember the rotten political structure and the upper echelons of the civil service.

Helix

k_mac wrote: »

Randomly audit welfare recepients on a weekly basis and ensure no money is going to non essentials.

or only give a small amount of cash, supplemented by vouchers for the things the person says they need on their new and improved means testing form

zing zong

k_mac wrote: »

Legalise and tax marijuana and prostitution. Massive earning potential.

Allow ordinary citizens to buy 5% bonds from the government. Revenue generating and allows us to invest in our own future.

Serious investigation into welfare fraud.
Shut down government departments. Do we really need a group to monitor how much the Irish language is being implemented.

Reduce wage bill

Suspend Seanad and hence eliminate all expenses.

Suspend metro project.

House those on rent allowance in property owned by Nama and eliminate the allowance.
Randomly audit welfare recepients on a weekly basis and ensure no money is going to non essentials.

those in bold, totally agree, those not ........wha!?

zing zong

hinault wrote: »

The root cause of our problems I think is our political system and the upper civil service.

All of the financial chicanery, the duplicity and lies of the banks to the inexorable rise in the value of land prices to the appointment of lackeys at the CB and Financial Regulators office, came about as a result of a flawed
political/administrative system which has crippled our country for at least the next decade.

The upper echelons of the civil service coupled with the inert political system needs to be dismantled and replaced by something which is accountable and transparent.

I have no difficulty with the IMF walking in here and scorching this country.
I just hope that in doing so they will dismember the rotten political structure and the upper echelons of the civil service.

agreed, but the IMF shouldn't do it, we should

Sandvich

k_mac wrote: »

House those on rent allowance in property owned by Nama and eliminate the allowance.

Randomly audit welfare recepients on a weekly basis and ensure no money is going to non essentials.

:rolleyes:

No grasp of reality I see. Getting rid of Rent Allowance and forcing people into property owned by Nama... that would involve an awkward mass shifting around of people, and it of course won't suit people who are on Fás or FETAC courses or similar if they have to end up the other side of the city.

And the last part is crazy, how do you define non essentials and why should people on welfare deserve no non essentials? You could probably survive on very little if you lived in a cardboard box and were satisfactory with merely surviving until you die of hypothermia in the winter. The majority of people currently on welfare are not "scroungers" and many people on disability are further long term unemployed.

Not to mention what an enormous blow that would be to the economy.

Sandvich

zing zong wrote: »

agreed, but the IMF shouldn't do it, we should

I Don't think people have a clue as to what the IMF actually does.

hinault

zing zong wrote: »

agreed, but the IMF shouldn't do it, we should

We (Joe Public) won't for some unknown reason.

Two years have been wasted.
Wrong policies implemented.
Include the crazy policies pursued between 2003 and 2007/8, there is enough
evidence to get people motivated for real change.

But for some reason Joe Public refuses to initiate change.

hinault

Sandvich wrote: »

I Don't think people have a clue as to what the IMF actually does.

We know that the IMF won't sweep aside the politicians and top civil servants, if they (IMF) came in here.

I'm suggesting though that if they do come in here, that they do in fact sweep the root cause of the crisis (politicians/upper civil service) away.

If they're going to do the job, they might as well do it right.

Sandvich

hinault wrote: »

We (Joe Public) won't for some unknown reason.

Two years have been wasted.
Wrong policies implemented.
Include the crazy policies pursued between 2003 and 2007/8, there is enough
evidence to get people motivated for real change.

But for some reason Joe Public refuses to initiate change.

Because we can't even agree what change is, and some people seem to think "change" is centered around taking it out on people at the bottom rather than the top.

hinault

Sandvich wrote: »

Because we can't even agree what change is, and some people seem to think "change" is centered around taking it out on people at the bottom rather than the top.

Politicians and the top echelons of the civil service would be a good starting point.
Sean Fitz, David Drumm and all their mates they lent money to but who cannot repay their loans would be next.

wylo

-slash dole by 25% all round, im unemployed(surprise surprise im typing this at 2am) but it has to be done.

-remove rent allowance to single people not supporting anyone( I dont receive any so I know its possible to live without it)

-get rid of grants for students , waste of time, I live with a guy who is on back to education allowance and gets a grant, he recently bought an ipod, goes drinking every weekend, and buys new clothes more often than you'd expect.

- Dont tarnish all Public serive with the same brush, but look into each different service and cut accordingly, massive cuts in some wages, depending on earning and job skill. There are alot of people in the army for instance on very healthy wages that that don't have to do much every day, however nurses work hectic hours , are very educated and very skilled but some are better off working in tesco money/work/responsibility wise.

- cut down local councillors wages to a third, and cap minister salaries to 100k, these two measures are purely for the public.

-bring back student fees, offer interest free loans so everyone in the country has a chance to go to college, perhaps offering financial incentives for good results,e.g. pay back 90% of loan if your top student etc.

-Keep corporation tax the way it is, I think thats our only lifeline at the moment.

-Bring down the minimum wage to 7.60, (keeping in mind dole will have dropped so much it will still be worth working)


-I dont think taxes can be touched too much, its just simply not feasible, you cant make all the cuts above and expect people to pay even more for food.
However, people need to be encouraged to buy Irish, regarding everything. So I propose a massive import tax (like 50% as opposed to 21%) for anything bought online thats coming into the country, i.e. if you buy a book from amazon expect to pay more for it than it is to buy in Easons. This is not the case at the mo. Also invest some money in strongly enforcing this tax.

-Increase standard car fines, bring speeding and talking on the phone to 120euro. Its a months wages in Sweden if your caught but then again their system is probably designed so people dont speed as opposed to being designed to make money.

-Impose a 20euro fee for using your medical card, bit contradictory, but it would both reduce people wandering in there with the tinyest of problems and generate more cash,(ill expand on this if you want)

-Property tax, I dont know much about this area so im sure someone else can cover it.


All of these measures will most likely be happening soon anyway, or at least over the next 2/3 years , whether the IMF bail us out or not we have no choice, we are living in a dream world if we think we can continue the type of living we're enjoying today. People need to understand this more.

Anglo and FF have f**ked things up for us but there is nothing we can do now, and we were living beyond our means anyway.

Things will be getting much worse for all of us, its as simple as that, all we have been doing is putting off the inevitable. And I genuinely believe there will be 'Greek-esque' protests, they will occur during this harsh transition , and then everyone will just accept it,and finally we'll be able to grow again. I think 2015 is optimistic though, more like 2018/2019.

Julesie

The cuts have to happen but real growth is only going to come from generating new revenue. The construction jobs are gone and they aren't coming back any time soon. Foreign direct investment is not to be relied on either. Growing Irish industry is the way forward.

I would be investing massively in business start up support. We have lots and lots of very capable, resourceful people unemployed at present. Given the right support many could be enabled to set up their own businesses. Some will fail, some will thrive, those that do will generate more jobs, exports and ultimately tax revenue for the country for beyond the initial seed investment.

This could be such an amazing opportunity for the country to unleash the potential of people who otherwise would be focused on careers at established companies. Alas, I'm afraid we can't get ourselves looking beyond the meagre savings token gestures such as "slashing ministerial pensions" will provide. I understand the symbolism of those in power paying the price for past sins but really it is not solving the issue at hand.

wylo

Julesie wrote: »

The cuts have to happen but real growth is only going to come from generating new revenue. The construction jobs are gone and they aren't coming back any time soon. Foreign direct investment is not to be relied on either. Growing Irish industry is the way forward.

I would be investing massively in business start up support. We have lots and lots of very capable, resourceful people unemployed at present. Given the right support many could be enabled to set up their own businesses. Some will fail, some will thrive, those that do will generate more jobs, exports and ultimately tax revenue for the country for beyond the initial seed investment.

This could be such an amazing opportunity for the country to unleash the potential of people who otherwise would be focused on careers at established companies. Alas, I'm afraid we can't get ourselves looking beyond the meagre savings token gestures such as "slashing ministerial pensions" will provide. I understand the symbolism of those in power paying the price for past sins but really it is not solving the issue at hand.

I see your point, and what your saying makes complete sense, and should be implemented in the next few years, but I think at the moment were not going to be able to afford massive investments like that when we have such a huge gap between our intake and spending.
I think getting out of the mess , i.e. literally making those basic savings and changing the culture and thinking of our country in what we're 'entitled' to is our priority, then we can start investing heavily again.

heyjude

snyper wrote: »

- I feel we have to cut the social welfare, its the biggest cost we need to get back down to 1990 levels.

snyper wrote: »

- We need to reduce the public sector wage bill, We dont need 1 man to dig a hole and 3 to look at him, we also dont need 2 managers looking after those 4 men.

Not sure why you feel to reduce social welfare to the levels of 20 years ago, but while saying we need to cut the public sector wage bill you seem more interested in just cutting excess manpower. If you going to cut welfare to 1990 levels why not cut public sector pay to 1990 levels too ?

I agree that we need to cut politicians salaries and expenses, which should be a set down in legislation as a small multiple of the average industrial wage and no more unvouched expenses(if you have a legitimate expense, then prove it.) No more commissions or committees appointed by the government to consider politicians pay.

snyper wrote: »

- Reduce or corperate tax on foreign investment, yes their profits leave the country, but the employment is here and we need people employed and off state benefit.

With the static we are getting from Europe over our current low rate of corporation tax, I think reducing it is unlikely and wouldn't make much difference, we'd be better off trying to reduce the costs of doing business in this country.

snyper wrote: »

-Slashing of local authority budgets - i know first hand that at this time of year their are county and town councils spending money on things they dont need in order to spend the 2010 budget, if they dont they lose the unspent amount off nexy years budget - this is waste and serious waste.

The current system is flawed and councils shouldn't be punished if they don't spend their 2010 budget, but don't forget that local councillors play in role in determining council spending, so you could end up with a situation where a FF Minister is battling a FF controlled council and many TDs may depend on the help of local councillors to help them get re-elected come election time.


A property tax may be necessary, but a FF government probably wouldn't be able to avoid the temptation to help their mates in the property sector by requiring every house to be 'professionally' surveyed or valued,thereby introducing another instance of cronyism. There is also the issue of households that are asset rich but cash poor and tackling the inequality of basing a tax purely on value that would see householders with modest houses in the major cities paying more than people with larger houses in rural areas. A property tax could also rebound on the building trade by deterring people from building extensions or making other improvements that considerably increase the value of their property.

The state of the union address would quickly lose any value, as the Taoiseach of the day would probably turn it into just another party political broadcast and the opposition leaders would demand a similar facility to reply.

Taxing your way out of a recession seems to make no sense, since you would want to encourage economic activity and taxes do the opposite, its also hard to come up with new taxes that don't have the side effect of causing more damage than they are worth(eg the €10 travel tax).

I would though, go through the hundreds of quangos, especially those that have been set up in the past twenty years, to see whether they serve any useful purpose, do they replicate the work done by anyone else or could anyone else do the work more efficiently and could they be merged, thereby retaining their functions at a lower cost. I'd also reduce staffing levels in government departments where significant parts of their work have over the years, been hived off to various quangos. A justification that a particular quango is doing good/useful work wouldn't be enough, in these tough times, some quangos may be a luxury we can no longer afford.

The problem is that even then you are still left with substantial cuts; and PS pay and welfare as the biggest targets and I think the government needs to ensure that insiders(as the public service/civil service are) don't (as they seem to have in the Croke Park agreement) receive guarantees of no further cuts, thereby ensuring that welfare bares a disproportionate share of the huge cuts that will be required.

femur61

hinault wrote: »

The root cause of our problems I think is our political system and the upper civil service.

The upper echelons of the civil service coupled with the inert political system needs to be dismantled and replaced by something which is accountable and transparent.

I have no difficulty with the IMF walking in here and scorching this country.
I just hope that in doing so they will dismember the rotten political structure and the upper echelons of the civil service.

Ditto. Brian Lenihan was on Prime Time last night and thinks our emigration will mostly be immigrants returning home. H is so deluded. I missed all of the Mat Cooper interview but apparently he blamed a lot of our troubles on the Germans!

MagicSean

Sandvich wrote: »

:rolleyes:

No grasp of reality I see. Getting rid of Rent Allowance and forcing people into property owned by Nama... that would involve an awkward mass shifting around of people, and it of course won't suit people who are on Fás or FETAC courses or similar if they have to end up the other side of the city.

And the last part is crazy, how do you define non essentials and why should people on welfare deserve no non essentials? You could probably survive on very little if you lived in a cardboard box and were satisfactory with merely surviving until you die of hypothermia in the winter. The majority of people currently on welfare are not "scroungers" and many people on disability are further long term unemployed.

Not to mention what an enormous blow that would be to the economy.

It's welfare. it shouldn't be free money. Child support should be spent on a child. Dole should be spent on food and clothing. That's the whole point of it. If you are on welfare you shouldn't be able to buy booze or go to Ibiza with the money.

As regards the rent allowance. Why should you be allowed live wherever you want for free? If you are that desperate for a home you'll take a brand new one in a new estate for free. Who cares if people have to shift around?

cavedave

Allow into Ireland one million third world immigrants.

This would
1. Reduce labour costs for semi skilled work
2. Increase demand for property
3. Spread the national debt over more peopl

You can allow people in with authoritarian rules about deporting those who break rules. Ireland with these rules would be better than their current situation.
Allowing in immigrants when we have 13% unemployment is counterintuitive but our builders are only going to work here again when more people demand houses etc. Also these million workers will need Irish people fluent in English to supervise them and sell the products they produce

danbohan

zing zong wrote: »

agreed, but the IMF shouldn't do it, we should

we wont though will we , personally id take my chances with the imf anyday over retards like the healy raes.

acotone

Privatization of semi state companies like the ESB seems to be forgotten all the time, this could bring a lot of money

Amhran Nua

How to deal with bank debt that shouldn't belong to us:
Play it cool and keep the payments coming until the books are more or less balanced, then roll back the guarantee and "restructure" those debts.

How to reduce costs:
Privatise healthcare, after the manner of the Dutch, conduct efficiency audits throughout the public sector and civil service, and reduce dole costs by, wait for it...

creating more jobs!

Yes, we can afford near to current welfare levels as long as there are few enough people on it. So how do we do that?

Create a network of nationwide enterprise hubs based on the Business Employment Co-operative model which has proven successful in several countries. The idea of this scheme would be to provide an easy transition from inactivity to self employment.

A primary phase might be entrepreneurship educational schemes outside of the FAS framework, aimed at giving people real skills they can use to start their own businesses. This would include basic business accounting discipline.

They remain technically unemployed but develop their business idea under the wing of the BEC. Take experienced but unemployed businesspeople and give them equity in startups in exchange for their knowledge and contacts. At this stage the business plan has been dismantled and put back together again by people who have experience.

If it looks like being a success, they become a "salaried entrepreneur" with the security of a part-time employment contract. In addition, shares in the company can be sold to the public via an online credit card facility, up to say two fifths of the company; if even 1% of the population put €100 a month into those new companies, you'd have a budget of a million euros a week to invest. Open it up to foreign investment in Europe and the US and there is no limit to how high the numbers can run, as well as bringing in capital from other countries.

At a certain point the entrepreneur can take out a loan up to three times the amount of investment and money they put in themselves from the BEC hub credit union, although they remain personally responsible for the loan. Office space and advertising funding might also be supplied prior to this point.

Finally they become a self sufficient business, sharing in the ownership and management of the co-operative, or optionally going it alone.

Legislative and governmental groundwork:
- Create a specific entity beyond a limited company in Irish corporate law, the BEC.
- Change the rules for certain unemployment benefits to fit the BEC model.
- Reduce the complication involved in hiring new people as PAYE employees, which has benefits beyond this concept.
- Create a new classification of debt, enterprise debt, with much more lenient terms than the traditional Irish bankruptcy structure.
- Tax incentives for public investment in the BEC companies, say no taxes at all on profits made from shares in these companies for a period, and make them a tax deductible write off.
- Prior to the company becoming self sufficient, have a reduced tax rate for company income.
- An initial government advertising campaign and funding to provide an incentive for the BECs to be set up, with very limited ongoing involvement. This funding could be taken from the enterprise boards and other services which are no longer required, or whose usefulness is reduced.

Buckets more ideas in the sig there, including the obvious revamp of the political system.

edgecutter

Cut Social Welfare

Seriously, Britain has a rate that is around 30% of ours. This would help save so much money. Also cut benifits for non essential items. I know someone who works in the Dole offices and she told me that people can claim money for dog food.

Also many foreign nationals are staying here due to our generous system. I was speaking to a one Polish guy (I'm not hating here) and he told me that he was happy staying here as he got more money not working in Ireland then getting a job back home in Poland.

Julesie

wylo wrote: »

I see your point, and what your saying makes complete sense, and should be implemented in the next few years, but I think at the moment were not going to be able to afford massive investments like that when we have such a huge gap between our intake and spending.
I think getting out of the mess , i.e. literally making those basic savings and changing the culture and thinking of our country in what we're 'entitled' to is our priority, then we can start investing heavily again.

I think they have to happen simultaneously. Most people agree the majority of reduction in government expenditure will come from two areas:

• Publics sector wage bill
• Social welfare bill

These can be reduced by either lowering the number of recipients of each or by lowering the amount each person receives. More than likely a combination of both.

However reducing the number of people working in the public sector if there are no "new" jobs for them to go to is only likely to increase the social welfare bill. It will also lower the tax take (income and indirect) and also the level of spending in the economy in general, which could lead to further job losses. And the spiral continues.

Same story for the social welfare bill. You have to assume that social welfare recipients are spending practically all of the money they receive. Any reduction in that amount will result in less money being spent on goods and services in the economy, resulting in lower taxes and more job losses. Cutting that amount should be because we want to reduce the disincentive to work. At the moment though the biggest disincentive to work is a lack of jobs.

Now I'm not for a moment suggesting these cuts shouldn't happen and shouldn't happen now but..... they are only one side of the equation and the creation of new jobs is the equally important other side.

Scarab80

As much as I am loathe to agree with the ICTU and Sinn Fein I think we need to use the Pension Reserve Fund to fund projects in Ireland rather than holding foreign equities and bonds.

- Build transport infrastructure with return earned from future tolls or passenger charges

- Build Smart Grid infrastructure and more interconnectors with return earned as a levy on future energy bills

- Lay fibre in all of the major cities with return earned from future customers

- Provide free insulation and heating upgrades for all houses with return earned as a levy on heating bills between old energy usage and new energy usage.

- Provide a fund for student loan facilities

- Tender for a massive and integrated IT upgrade for the public sector with a focus on reducing administration costs and measuring output. Once implemented get rid of collective bargaining and the grade system and give managers direct responsibility for rewarding employees based on results.

This is of course on top of all of the cuts which are needed.

Also pass legislation which requires the present value of employer pension contributions to be included as part of gross pay (does not mean it is taxable) to ensure transparency in cost comparisons (see Minisiters pension equivalent to a present value contribution of 35,000 a month!), Build the pension reserve back up to reflect real pension obligations.

Count Dooku

I afraid that only choice is to accept that Ireland poor country and cannot spend so much on welfare and PS payroll bill. Slash it to sustainable levels, which don't requires borrowings, default and start to to grow again

Count Dooku

Scarab80 wrote: »

As much as I am loathe to agree with the ICTU and Sinn Fein I think we need to use the Pension Reserve Fund to fund projects in Ireland rather than holding foreign equities and bonds.

- Build transport infrastructure with return earned from future tolls or passenger charges

- Build Smart Grid infrastructure and more interconnectors with return earned as a levy on future energy bills

- Lay fibre in all of the major cities with return earned from future customers

- Provide free insulation and heating upgrades for all houses with return earned as a levy on heating bills between old energy usage and new energy usage.

- Provide a fund for student loan facilities

- Tender for a massive and integrated IT upgrade for the public sector with a focus on reducing administration costs and measuring output. Once implemented get rid of collective bargaining and the grade system and give managers direct responsibility for rewarding employees based on results.

It will only temporarily massage unemployment figures, but will not will not increase exports by cent

hinault

k_mac wrote: »

It's welfare. it shouldn't be free money. Child support should be spent on a child. Dole should be spent on food and clothing. That's the whole point of it. If you are on welfare you shouldn't be able to buy booze or go to Ibiza with the money.

As regards the rent allowance. Why should you be allowed live wherever you want for free? If you are that desperate for a home you'll take a brand new one in a new estate for free. Who cares if people have to shift around?

Stamps instead of social welfare payments.
Childrens allowances should be given out in the form of stamps : stamps for clothes which can be redeemed in clothes shops, stamps for foods which can be redeemed in food shops.
Children allowance applicant receives the stamps from DSW, the applicant has to exchange the stamps at the shops to get the food/clothing.

Shops redeem the clothes/food stamps from the DSW.

No money changes hands between the childrens allowance applicant and the DSW.

This system would ensure that the child is

1.maintained in food and clothes
2.childrens allowance applicant is not spending the allowance on something other than the childs welfare.

harsea8

hinault wrote: »

Stamps instead of social welfare payments.
Childrens allowances should be given out in the form of stamps : stamps for clothes which can be redeemed in clothes shops, stamps for foods which can be redeemed in food shops.
Children allowance applicant receives the stamps from DSW, the applicant has to exchange the stamps at the shops to get the food/clothing.

Shops redeem the clothes/food stamps from the DSW.

No money changes hands between the childrens allowance applicant and the DSW.

This system would ensure that the child is

1.maintained in food and clothes
2.childrens allowance applicant is not spending the allowance on something other than the childs welfare.

Good idea...you'd also save money as the middle/upper-class mums just wouldn't be seen dead handing over a food stamp in public...oh the shame!

zing zong

hinault wrote: »

Stamps instead of social welfare payments.
Childrens allowances should be given out in the form of stamps : stamps for clothes which can be redeemed in clothes shops, stamps for foods which can be redeemed in food shops.
Children allowance applicant receives the stamps from DSW, the applicant has to exchange the stamps at the shops to get the food/clothing.

Shops redeem the clothes/food stamps from the DSW.

No money changes hands between the childrens allowance applicant and the DSW.

This system would ensure that the child is

1.maintained in food and clothes
2.childrens allowance applicant is not spending the allowance on something other than the childs welfare.

what the hell are you like!? STAMPS!?

grow up, this thread is about ideas on the economy, not ideas on being a d!ck

you think people that have been made unemployed should be punished??

christ...................:mad:

hinault

zing zong wrote: »

what the hell are you like!? STAMPS!?

grow up, this thread is about ideas on the economy, not ideas on being a d!ck

you think people that have been made unemployed should be punished??

christ...................:mad:

Calm down.

The discussion had turned to childrens allowance and how childrens allowance could be transacted to ensure that the allowance is used for the intended purpose.

A system of stamps could ensure that any childrens allowance given by the State would be used for the purposes that it was intended for.

By handing out cash to childrens allowance applicants, one cannot be sure that the money is actually spent on the child.

A system of stamps would ensure that any allowance given would have to be spent on the child.

zing zong

yeah........... you're right, I was actually a bit hasty there, didn't read it properly :rolleyes: I retract that statement

hinault

zing zong wrote: »

yeah........... you're right, I was actually a bit hasty there, didn't read it properly :rolleyes: I retract that statement

No problem.

Anecdotally there seems to be an opinion that childrens allowance as it stands doesn't actually get spent on the children.

The stamp system would ensure that this abuse doesn't happen.

MagicSean

zing zong wrote: »

what the hell are you like!? STAMPS!?

grow up, this thread is about ideas on the economy, not ideas on being a d!ck

you think people that have been made unemployed should be punished??

christ...................:mad:

I've seen how welfare money is spent. It's ridiculous. If the public knew what it was spent on there'd be outrage.

jimmycrackcorm

hinault wrote: »

Anecdotally there seems to be an opinion that childrens allowance as it stands doesn't actually get spent on the children.

True but it's a bit like saying that motor tax doesn't get spent on roads.

The stamp system would ensure that this abuse doesn't happen.

Unfortunately not because a trade would develop on stamps; e.g. Northern retailers would accept stamps and then use a southern broker to redeem them.

hinault

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Unfortunately not because a trade would develop on stamps; e.g. Northern retailers would accept stamps and then use a southern broker to redeem them.

I think you miss the point.

If a childrens allowance receipient receives food/clothes stamps, instead of cash, they will still be only able to procure product from retailers.

The purpose of this idea is
1.to curtail cash being given to children allowance applicants
2.to ensure that any allowances given are spent on food/clothes for children

In addition, if stamps are given out in the jurisdiction and can only be exchanged in this jurisdiction, NI retailers would not be interested in dealing with a ROI broker.

Also would a childrens allowance receipient in say Kerry, really go to the trouble to locate a broker based close to the border?

MagicSean

hinault wrote: »

I think you miss the point.

If a childrens allowance receipient receives food/clothes stamps, instead of cash, they will still be only able to procure product from retailers.

The purpose of this idea is
1.to curtail cash being given to children allowance applicants
2.to ensure that any allowances given are spent on food/clothes for children

In addition, if stamps are given out in the jurisdiction and can only be exchanged in this jurisdiction, NI retailers would not be interested in dealing with a ROI broker.

Also would a childrens allowance receipient in say Kerry, really go to the trouble to locate a broker based close to the border?

I can see the weekly bus trips now.

AckwelFoley

Amhran Nua wrote: »

How to deal with bank debt that shouldn't belong to us:
Play it cool and keep the payments coming until the books are more or less balanced, then roll back the guarantee and "restructure" those debts.

.

Good post Amhran Nua, but ive quoted the first point and would like you to elabourate a bit further on it if you could.

Scarab80

Count Dooku wrote: »

It will only temporarily massage unemployment figures, but will not will not increase exports by cent

1. So what if it doesn't increase exports, domestic consumption was worth 84bn to our economy last year. Domestic consumption accounts for 70% of US GDP every year.

2. Not stimulating employment is costing us 20bn a year in social payment costs, 2/3rds of our tax revenue is paid to people to do nothing. The cost of doing these projects now from a labour point of view is the cost of employment less the social welfare cost so there is never a better time to do them.

3. By upgrading infrastructure you make the country more attractive to FDI, by doing things like upgrading the electrical network to handle more renewables and insulating homes you reduce the amount of imported energy.

4. If a project makes economic sense it should be carried out regardless, if a return can be made on these investments they should be carried out as soon as possible.

Amhran Nua

snyper wrote: »

Good post Amhran Nua, but ive quoted the first point and would like you to elabourate a bit further on it if you could.

Eh I've been informed that if you intend to give the short shrift to the European Central Bank regarding a matter of some billions of euros you probably shouldn't discuss the details on an internet forum beforehand, although I've no intention of stiffing anyone, but we'll say no more, save only that resolutions are in development and will be presented in due course.

The party line is that NAMA and all its works shall be, along with any confusion about comments on the subject of debt restructuring, stricken from the record.

AckwelFoley

Amhran Nua wrote: »

Eh I've been informed that if you intend to give the short shrift to the European Central Bank regarding a matter of some billions of euros you probably shouldn't discuss the details on an internet forum beforehand, although I've no intention of stiffing anyone, but we'll say no more, save only that resolutions are in development and will be presented in due course.

The party line is that NAMA and all its works shall be, along with any confusion about comments on the subject of debt restructuring, stricken from the record.

Whats the alternative to NAMA.

Trying to choose between NAMA is like asking which would you prefer - a kick in the balls or a kick in the face?

Neither are nice, both will have negative effects, but we have to choose one...

Amhran Nua

snyper wrote: »

Whats the alternative to NAMA.

There have been several alternatives put forward, and its a fairly complex question, but broadly the one we favour is what should have been done originally, a debt for equity swap. That boat may have to a certain yet-to-be-determined extent sailed, since the original debts have been shifted from banks owing investors, to the Irish government owing the ECB, but that just means we have to get on a slightly different boat.

The primary concern is and has been to protect retail deposits and commercial accounts within Irish banks, and Irish banks still have large amounts of performing assets in the shape of mortgages, so once you offload the bad debt/investment, you are in a far stronger position to manage your finances.

What NAMA is trying to do is pay off debts with ECB money, then put repayments on hold until assets (property) recover their value. Its an unreal perversion of a similar scheme which was put in place by the Scandinavian countries who found themselves in a similar situation. Reports of NAMA turning a profit at this stage are nonsense, it took onboard all loans beyond a certain level, good and bad, so its not surprising that if you come to arrangements with bad debts and collect the benefit on good debts you'll make a profit.

Another putative benefit was that it would assuage the concerns of the market and hence allow us to keep borrowing, and we all know how that worked out.

So basically salvage what we need, and come to an understanding with the ECB or whoever it is that holds the cards at the moment after balancing the books, because we will not be paying off the gambling debts of the Anglo cartel and the red braces brigade, last seen guffawing and making monkey noises down the phone at Lenihan, for the foreseeable future.

MagicSean

snyper wrote: »

Whats the alternative to NAMA.

Divide the money up between all the citizens. Let us pay off our mortgages and buy real estate in Germany with what's left.

femur61

harsea8 wrote: »

Good idea...you'd also save money as the middle/upper-class mums just wouldn't be seen dead handing over a food stamp in public...oh the shame!

Also, it would keep the money in Ireland! Everyone remembers how our SW payments decreased with the ash cloud.

johnnyskeleton

Government should facilitate, not dominate the economy.

Therefore any imposed plan to help the economy will not necessarily work out.

The government should focus on getting its own books in order and, at least for the most part, let the economy sort itself out.

Government interventions should only be done where there is a clear social need or a fairly secure economic return.

The position we are in now is that we have far too much unnecessary and wasteful government intervention, and it is crippling innovation and growth.

So, while I am not an advocate of a very tiny government or any other radical right wing idea, the best thing that the government can do, at this moment in time, is keep away from the economy and look after its own books.

ei.sdraob

We can not begin to address the economic crisis until we solve the political crisis and get rid of ff

MagicSean

ei.sdraob wrote: »

We can not begin to address the economic crisis until we solve the political crisis and get rid of ff

That's a cop out. The option was there to form a four year plan with all the parties but they wouldn't involve themselves. Why do you think FG or Labour will be any better when they are willing to let the country suffer for their own political selfishness.