California limits use of welfare 'debit cards' to essential purchases

thebigbiffo

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ebt-cards-20101102,0,928832.story

At first glance the idea of a welfare 'debit card' seems like a useless idea. Welfare payments are paid into bank accounts in this country which can then be used for any purchase whatsoever so what'd be the point in implementing a specific welfare 'debit card'?

Well, considering what California have just done I think it's a great idea. Imagine a variation where when you signed up to the dole you recieved a card that could only be used to purchase specific items which the welfare payment is actually meant to pay for.

For a start, lets say you could'nt take out cash (or only a small amount of cash) and thereafter the card would only work in supermarkets (excluding the alcohol section), hardware stores, clothes shops and other stores deemed to stock essential goods? At least then you could be assured that welfare is spent on just that - the 'welfare' of the recipient and their family and not alcohol, drugs, gambling etc.

what thinks AH?

AnonoBoy

"Howya there boss? I just bought all these essential items in your store a few minutes ago but then I realised they're not what I need at all. Can I exchange them for eh.... let's see, 2 flagons of cider, 10 packs of fags and 24 cans of Tuborg?"

phill106

Just have foodstamps

http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10101.html

seithon

Sure, except all that really happens is you end up with a small grey/black market where the welfare money is laundered and converted into cash with the launderers taking a nice cut and then the money is spent on bull**** anyway.

Don't get me wrong it's a good idea for them to tighten things up but lets be honest setting up a system like this just inspires new types of crime to take advantage of it.

laugh

Hey Mr drug dealer how many pints of milk will get me some meth?

Biggins

Well yesterday as I was waiting for a taxi, I seen a wretched looking drunk woman trying to control her 3 starved looking kids and I thought to myself "there is something seriously wrong here" (the radio controller confirmed the mother was unemployed and a regular drunk) so if she was disabled from buying so much drink with her dole money and would have to buy food instead more so, I'm definitely in favour of such a system.

In this particular case is a very novel but very good idea. Well done California.

gonedrinking

the cost of setting it up would be too expensive for us, food stamps are a better idea

pablo_escobar

Didn't Ireland have coupons before? and weren't they exchanged for luxury goods like cigarettes and alcohol?

godwin

pablo_escobar wrote: »

Didn't Ireland have coupons before? and weren't they exchanged for luxury goods like cigarettes and alcohol?

Butter Vouchers :pac:
I used to be able to buy Cigs&Drink out of these

senordingdong

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Welfare payments are paid into bank accounts in this country which can then be used for any purchase whatsoever

They don't though.

Fair play to Arnie.

drunkmonkey

Drug test welfare recepients, that will stop any butter for pot black market.

gonedrinking

Or we could bring back soup kitchens? Instead of giving people on the dole money to fritter away on drink and drugs, give them a voucher for each day which would grant them access to the soup kitchen. Once there they would have to consume their meal in house and could not take any food away with them.

Biggins

Its an interesting concept and one that should not be knocked immediately just becuase of start-up costs in the short term. Long term results might be better?

There are a number of point that come right to mind and I'm just throwing them out there to hear others thoughts/opinions maybe.
For example:

* How does one while still unemployed gain money to cover bills such as EBS, gas, etc?

* There maybe for some a possible stigma attached to having to hand over stamps and well as been seen to do so. On the latter, a card would be a more discreet way of paying for food rather than unintentionally advertising to those behind you in a busy supermarket queue, that your unemployed and on food stamps!

And on the former (that of being a stigma attached to food stamps) and those that might say stigma or not, your unemployed and should be lucky to get them, remember that when you read in threads here (previously already) how "unemployed" here alone in threads are sometimes treated like second class citizens - only to be degraded by some and a target of anger and seen as an possibly additional source of why this country is starved of funds - thus the consistent by some, lashing out at them!

The card system is certainly an idea that merits further thought and initial start-up costs should not disparage us from doing something that in the long run, will be of benefit to all.

curlzy

I'd be totally against this. Contrary to popular belief not all social welfare recepients are scum :rolleyes:. This idea that it's ok to treat social welfare recepients like stupid people is just indicative of how nasty our hive mind has gotton. Social welfare recipents are entitled to their dignity too you know!!! This kind of idea turns my stomach to be honest.

thebigbiffo

AnonoBoy wrote: »

"Howya there boss? I just bought all these essential items in your store a few minutes ago but then I realised they're not what I need at all. Can I exchange them for eh.... let's see, 2 flagons of cider, 10 packs of fags and 24 cans of Tuborg?"

money does not go back to cash it goes back to the card...possible solution?

there's not going to be much of a black market for foodstuff and the like - unless you're a very serious alcoholic/junkie and at least then those types of 'welfare recipients' wont have as much to spend on their habits.

the more i think about this the more i like it. the technology is already there (which wasnt there in the last recession and indeed not until the early 2000's) and the savings that could be made through welfare fraud (non-residents claiming the money then bringing it home with them) would ensure it paid for itself in no time.

godwin

thebigbiffo wrote: »

money does not go back to cash it goes back to the card...possible solution?

there's not going to be much of a black market for foodstuff and the like - unless you're a very serious alcoholic/junkie and at least then those types of 'welfare recipients' wont have as much to spend on their habits.

Where there is money(digital or paper)there will always be fraud.

thebigbiffo

curlzy wrote: »

I'd be totally against this. Contrary to popular belief not all social welfare recepients are scum :rolleyes:. This idea that it's ok to treat social welfare recepients like stupid people is just indicative of how nasty our hive mind has gotton. Social welfare recipents are entitled to their dignity too you know!!! This kind of idea turns my stomach to be honest.

i'm sorry but did someone on here allude to social welfare recipients being scum, i certainly didnt!

how would this system treat people on SW as stupid exactly? how would it affect their dignity...paying with a debit card is alot less stigmatic than food stamps or vouchers which - believe me - you could see back as a feature of SW if things keep going the way they are!

this is not about stigmatising SW recipients - this is about ensuring that genuine recipients get what they deserve while those that dont arent bleeding the taxpayer for every penny!

we need to recognise that their is a distinction to be made between people who genuinely rely on support and those that dont - and they're there and costing us money, whether you like it or not.

thebigbiffo

godwin wrote: »

Where there is money(digital or paper)there will always be fraud.

i agree - but this system gets rid of many of the glaring opportunities that are there at the moment to use SW money for reasons it was not intended.

Biggins

I assume also that alcohol sales would drop significiently but that foodstuff items would arise - and if that meant that straved kids get more food over their crutial important growing years rather than their parent drink/smoke their dole money away, on that example alone - please tell me where I donate money to see this novel idea at least gains further consideration.

Biggins

godwin wrote: »

Where there is money(digital or paper)there will always be fraud.

There will always be fraud - but the least we can do is make more ways to minimise it - and this card idea just might be a significant way to help in that fraud battle.

snubbleste

Personally I think the State should leverage its buying power and ask the retail multiples to negotiate for custom at a significant discount.
The State should then issue dole recepients a proportion of their dole on a giftcard at the winning bidder's stores.

Cards already exist, just a question of linking them up to the dole recipients claim and determining the amount given.

godwin

snubbleste wrote: »

Personally I think the State should leverage its buying power and ask the retail multiples to negotiate for custom at a significant discount.
The State should then issue dole recepients a proportion of their dole on a giftcard at the winning bidder's stores.

Cards already exist, just a question of linking them up to the dole recipients claim and determining the amount given.

The state should open its own chain of supermarkets "doelos"

mickydoomsux

Great concept but it'd never happen over here. Can you imagine Scaldyballs O'Knackbag being refused booze or fags in Tesco when he hands over his debit card? There'd be chaos.

Plus you'd have the SVdeP and all the other bleeding hearts coming out saying that it's unfair that poor people can't spend their free money on cans of Tuborg and ciggies if they want to.

I think any genuine person who's fallen on hard times and is on welfare wouldn't have a problem with this type of system but you'll have the career-unemployed crying victimisation.

Biggins

godwin wrote: »

The state should open its own chain of supermarkets "doleos"

...And its with that attitude towards the unemployed that ideas like the card system should be looked at, besides just issuing paper food stamps (which by the way, can be forged too!).

RedXIV

Actually I reckon it could go the other way around. Say your on the JSA for more than a year, for someone that was employed, that time is doubled because you get JSB. After your year on JSA, hard luck sonny jim, your on the debit card

Odysseus

Good idea, but would never work. There will always be a shop that will cash it for a certain cut, therefore leaving the person with even less. Someone suggested drug testing all that would mean is the person may have to seek treatment. If it was heroin the person was using they would end up on a meth programme.

I support meth programmes but they will only help the person to the extent they want help.

seamus

Biggins wrote: »

In this particular case is a very novel but very good idea. Well done California.

I came up with this idea more than a year ago: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055718985

I am available to hire as a technology consultant for any state who wants to implement such a system. PM me, etc.

drunkmonkey

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Plus you'd have the SVdeP and all the other bleeding hearts coming out saying that it's unfair that poor people can't spend their free money on cans of Tuborg and ciggies if they want to.

The current system isn't fair on Children, there's a lot of people spending money on fags, booze and drugs that money should be going to school, food and clothes for their children.
Free money days won't last forever, money needs to go to those that need it, not to pay for sky tv & superkings.

Biggins

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Great concept but it'd never happen over here. Can you imagine Scaldyballs O'Knackbag being refused booze or fags in Tesco when he hands over his debit card? There'd be chaos. .

It would be abundantly made clear in the strongest terms to those issued with the cards that they WILL NOT be usable in the chase of alcohol.

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Plus you'd have the SVdeP and all the other bleeding hearts coming out saying that it's unfair that poor people can't spend their free money on cans of Tuborg and ciggies if they want to.

The SVP I suspect, would certainly be glad to see the poor possibly gaining more food and less alcohol/drugs I would think.

mickydoomsux

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The current system isn't fair on Children, there's a lot of people spending money on fags, booze and drugs that money should be going to school, food and clothes for their children.
Free money days won't last forever, money needs to go to those that need it, not to pay for sky tv & superkings.

The majority of these people don't care about their children in the slightest. they just have them to get "the few extra euro social" and to advance themselves up the social housing list (people with kids get priority).

Free money days will last forever though. The government that gets rid of our welfare society will pretty much be commiting political suicide.

thebigbiffo

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Great concept but it'd never happen over here. Can you imagine Scaldyballs O'Knackbag being refused booze or fags in Tesco when he hands over his debit card? There'd be chaos.

Plus you'd have the SVdeP and all the other bleeding hearts coming out saying that it's unfair that poor people can't spend their free money on cans of Tuborg and ciggies if they want to.

I think any genuine person who's fallen on hard times and is on welfare wouldn't have a problem with this type of system but you'll have the career-unemployed crying victimisation.

i can imagine the bleeding hearts up in arms alright - but a simple solution is in the idea.

dole is about €190 p/w. lets say you are capped at €50 in cash - this is enough to buy 3 packets of drum rolling tobacco, 18 cans of tuborg and still have 20 quid left to play aorund with - if you need more than that: f'uck you, why should the state pay for it?? the remainder of the 'credit' can only be used for designated items.

i seriously do not see why anybody would be against this system...

apart from the obvious dole payments, how much of the back to school allowance, clothing allowance and various other allowances is spent on s'hite out there at the moment? i'd also use the system for the single mothers allowance and every other area where cash is handed over atm...

the knock on effect is that people who can work but havent been because they have a comfortable social life on the dole are incentivized to make actual cash...

Saadyst

The immediate concern I would have about this is: like it or not, there are a load of people out there who have debt. Some have a little debt, some have a lot.

If they can't keep up the minimum payments, they'll have to pay more in the long term, along with penalty charges, possibly dealing with the courts / bailiffs etc.

Basically, I'm thinking that this idea might make people poorer rather than better off.

Even if they find a job, they'll have to face the months / years of debt they couldn't pay when they were unemployed.

Biggins

Saadyst wrote: »

The immediate concern I would have about this is: like it or not, there are a load of people out there who have debt. Some have a little debt, some have a lot.

If they can't keep up the minimum payments, they'll have to pay more in the long term, along with penalty charges, possibly dealing with the courts / bailiffs etc.

Basically, I'm thinking that this idea might make people poorer rather than better off.

Even if they find a job, they'll have to face the months / years of debt they couldn't pay when they were unemployed.

Well for those that are blowing their money on booze and fags, paying of debts will come secondary anyway, if at all.

So if a portion was cash and the rest on card, those that have those bills and do want to keep paying them, the notes will still be there for them.

Mister men

thebigbiffo wrote: »

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ebt-cards-20101102,0,928832.story

At first glance the idea of a welfare 'debit card' seems like a useless idea. Welfare payments are paid into bank accounts in this country which can then be used for any purchase whatsoever so what'd be the point in implementing a specific welfare 'debit card'?

Well, considering what California have just done I think it's a great idea. Imagine a variation where when you signed up to the dole you recieved a card that could only be used to purchase specific items which the welfare payment is actually meant to pay for.

For a start, lets say you could'nt take out cash (or only a small amount of cash) and thereafter the card would only work in supermarkets (excluding the alcohol section), hardware stores, clothes shops and other stores deemed to stock essential goods? At least then you could be assured that welfare is spent on just that - the 'welfare' of the recipient and their family and not alcohol, drugs, gambling etc.

what thinks AH?

I think it's long overdue tbh. I've seen to many scummers kids go without so they can feed their drug,drinking,gambling or smoking habits.

thebigbiffo

Saadyst wrote: »

The immediate concern I would have about this is: like it or not, there are a load of people out there who have debt. Some have a little debt, some have a lot.

If they can't keep up the minimum payments, they'll have to pay more in the long term, along with penalty charges, possibly dealing with the courts / bailiffs etc.

Basically, I'm thinking that this idea might make people poorer rather than better off.

Even if they find a job, they'll have to face the months / years of debt they couldn't pay when they were unemployed.

i also have an issue with people using dole money or any other allowances to pay MBNA their interest. the laws regarding personal debt would need to change to relfect the fact that if you lose your job you're no longer in a position to repay that debt through no fault of your own...

ie. if MBNA give you a credit card worth x, that's their risk - not the taxpayers and they have to wait until you were back in work to recieve their money...anybody giving out credit needs to take responsibilty for what they did. the way it was, john and mary self employed carpenter and cleaner could run up debts of 10's of thouands and when they lose their jobs i'm paying their interest...ppffffft!

thomasj

Make it solely laser card so that these cards cannot be used outside the country!

Sea Sharp

thomasj wrote: »

Make it solely laser card so that these cards cannot be used outside the country!

If buying outside the country was a problem, the government would be able to see this because presumably they'd have digital records of who's spending what and where.

I think it's a good idea, but I don't think the government has the organisation or motivation to get it done in the next 5 years and they'd hire people that would over-charge for setting the system up.

gurramok

seamus wrote: »

I came up with this idea more than a year ago: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055718985

I am available to hire as a technology consultant for any state who wants to implement such a system. PM me, etc.

We don't need to spend more money on consultants!;)

Saadyst

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i also have an issue with people using dole money or any other allowances to pay MBNA their interest. the laws regarding personal debt would need to change to relfect the fact that if you lose your job you're no longer in a position to repay that debt through no fault of your own...

ie. if MBNA give you a credit card worth x, that's their risk - not the taxpayers and they have to wait until you were back in work to recieve their money...anybody giving out credit needs to take responsibilty for what they did. the way it was, john and mary self employed carpenter and cleaner could run up debts of 10's of thouands and when they lose their jobs i'm paying their interest...ppffffft!

Well, I think a lot of people would be happy with that.

But the attitude of "why am I paying for these other people"... it just doesn't work. Because I don't have kids - why does my tax money go to teachers or schools? I don't make use of x y or z service from the government, why does my tax money go there?

It's a society.

Anyway, this is just a red herring. Dole claimants cost around €5b a year - and the total welfare bill comes to around €20b - IIRC.

Out of that €5b, how much do you expect would be "saved" from this scheme? Or benefits achieved?

This is just a placebo idea imo. In the grand scheme of things, not much gained, but the right-leaning are placated.

heavyballs

i work in a bank and i recently stumbled upon a name of a guy known as a small time dealer in my area,he had requested a bank statement so i was just doing my job,didn't do anything illegal(although i shouldn't be telling all you guys)
anyway for the past 6 years or so he seems to have his dole (it seems )along with some other regular payments payed into this current account,not 1 penny has been withdrawn,i would love to do something about this,here's this little scumbag with around €40k in a current account when i know he's dealing drugs,
i wonder can i dob him in to the social

mickydoomsux

heavyballs wrote: »

i work in a bank and i recently stumbled upon a name of a guy known as a small time dealer in my area,he had requested a bank statement so i was just doing my job,didn't do anything illegal(although i shouldn't be telling all you guys)
anyway for the past 6 years or so he seems to have his dole (it seems )along with some other regular payments payed into this current account,not 1 penny has been withdrawn,i would love to do something about this,here's this little scumbag with around €40k in a current account when i know he's dealing drugs,
i wonder can i dob him in to the social

Nope. It's his money.

We really are a pathetic nation. We have widespread state sponsored scum-baggery. Anyone who picks up a criminal conviction while receiving welfare should just have their welfare cut off.

godwin

thomasj wrote: »

Make it solely laser card so that these cards cannot be used outside the country!

Yes because people on the dole are making regular flights to Paris,London and Rome to spend their €196 a week , disgraceful.

I think the obvious solution from reading suggestions in the thread is a total ban on the sale alcohol and cigarettes to people on social welfare.

Saadyst

heavyballs wrote: »

i work in a bank and i recently stumbled upon a name of a guy known as a small time dealer in my area,he had requested a bank statement so i was just doing my job,didn't do anything illegal(although i shouldn't be telling all you guys)
anyway for the past 6 years or so he seems to have his dole (it seems )along with some other regular payments payed into this current account,not 1 penny has been withdrawn,i would love to do something about this,here's this little scumbag with around €40k in a current account when i know he's dealing drugs,
i wonder can i dob him in to the social

Don't think you can technically do anything - data protection and all that. Although I think if he's on it for 6 years he would be on JSA.. which is means tested.. and reviewed every so often - they'd require the bank statements where the payments are going... so I dunno what's going on there.

Mrmoe

I think this a great idea. It would also offer the government the ability to collectively bargian. They could form an agreement with major supermarkets such as Tesco, Dunnes etc where major discounts can be offered for certain basic food items such as bread or milk if they are bought in those stores. Widespread fraud would be easy to track as there would be electronic records for everything.

curlzy

thebigbiffo wrote: »

i'm sorry but did someone on here allude to social welfare recipients being scum, i certainly didnt!
how would this system treat people on SW as stupid exactly? how would it affect their dignity...paying with a debit card is alot less stigmatic than food stamps or vouchers which - believe me - you could see back as a feature of SW if things keep going the way they are!

this is not about stigmatising SW recipients - this is about ensuring that genuine recipients get what they deserve while those that dont arent bleeding the taxpayer for every penny!

we need to recognise that their is a distinction to be made between people who genuinely rely on support and those that dont - and they're there and costing us money, whether you like it or not.

This quote answers your first question:

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The current system isn't fair on Children, there's a lot of people spending money on fags, booze and drugs that money should be going to school, food and clothes for their children.
Free money days won't last forever, money needs to go to those that need it, not to pay for sky tv & superkings.

I'm assuming you're not on social welfare because your opinion would defo differ if you were. Do you not think telling someone how to spend their money is infringing their dignity, no? You don't think that telling someone "oh you're probably going to spend your children's food money on heroin so we're going to give you this little card instead of cash" is infringing their dignity and treating them like scum?

Le big ****ing sigh. . . .
I'm so sick of people acting like social welfare recipients are scumbag knackers. Like really bloody sick of it, to all of you that treat social welfare recipients like that, I really and truly with all my heart that you end up on the dole so you can see what it's like. There but for the grace of god go I, I'm lucky to have a job but I don't look down on others that don't. This attitude is so ****ing sickeningly hypocritical too, you do realise that we're in a recession? and that you could be the next in the unemployment line, at which time you'll be screaming about being treated like ****e. I really hope what goes around comes around in this case.

Saadyst

Mrmoe wrote: »

I think this a great idea. It would also offer the government the ability to collectively bargian. They could form an agreement with major supermarkets such as Tesco, Dunnes etc where major discounts can be offered for certain basic food items such as bread or milk if they are bought in those stores. Widespread fraud would be easy to track as there would be electronic records for everything.

Good intentions, but won't that serve to hurt the small business owners more, trying to compete against that? If a bunch of their customers now are spending their money in Tescos because that's one of the only places they can..

Biggins

godwin wrote: »

...I think the obvious solution from reading suggestions in the thread is a total ban on the sale alcohol and cigarettes to people on social welfare.

Your either attempting to troll or just lack little insight and/or think those unemployed, when they become so, become second class citizens!

You cannot discriminate against those that have committed no crime.
There are laws for this alone.

You can however see to it that state funding is spent more wisely.

drunkmonkey

heavyballs wrote: »

i work in a bank and i recently stumbled upon a name of a guy known as a small time dealer in my area,he had requested a bank statement so i was just doing my job,didn't do anything illegal(although i shouldn't be telling all you guys)
anyway for the past 6 years or so he seems to have his dole (it seems )along with some other regular payments payed into this current account,not 1 penny has been withdrawn,i would love to do something about this,here's this little scumbag with around €40k in a current account when i know he's dealing drugs,
i wonder can i dob him in to the social

I failed my banking exam a few times but I do remember something about reporting cases like this. The Gards/Social Welfare/Revenue would all like a slice of that pie. Your obliged to tell them I think.

Doneg Al

I think the government needs to spend more time creating jobs for all the people desperate for work, less time worrying about how junkies spend their social welfare.

up for anything

This thread is the most evil, perverted nasty thread I have ever seen on boards.ie and most of the posters on it are worse than the so called scumbags. All of your worrying about the welfare of what you term scumbag kids is fake. You wouldn't refer to them as scumbag kids if you had one ounce of real concern. All you are worried about is what your hard earned tax money is being frittered away on. Well screw you and I hope to welcome you to the ever growing band of social welfare scum recipients one of these days - probably in January 2011.

You make me sick! :mad:

heavyballs

up for anything wrote: »

This thread is the most evil, perverted nasty thread I have ever seen on boards.ie and most of the posters on it are worse than the so called scumbags. All of your worrying about the welfare of what you term scumbag kids is fake. You wouldn't refer to them as scumbag kids if you had one ounce of real concern. All you are worried about is what your hard earned tax money is being frittered away on. Well screw you and I hope to welcome you to the ever growing band of social welfare scum recipients one of these days - probably in January 2011.

You make me sick! :mad:

any luck on the jobs front? ..........no.?