California limits use of welfare 'debit cards' to essential purchases

thebigbiffo

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-ebt-cards-20101102,0,928832.story

At first glance the idea of a welfare 'debit card' seems like a useless idea. Welfare payments are paid into bank accounts in this country which can then be used for any purchase whatsoever so what'd be the point in implementing a specific welfare 'debit card'?

Well, considering what California have just done I think it's a great idea. Imagine a variation where when you signed up to the dole you recieved a card that could only be used to purchase specific items which the welfare payment is actually meant to pay for.

For a start, lets say you could'nt take out cash (or only a small amount of cash) and thereafter the card would only work in supermarkets (excluding the alcohol section), hardware stores, clothes shops and other stores deemed to stock essential goods? At least then you could be assured that welfare is spent on just that - the 'welfare' of the recipient and their family and not alcohol, drugs, gambling etc.

what thinks AH?

AnonoBoy

"Howya there boss? I just bought all these essential items in your store a few minutes ago but then I realised they're not what I need at all. Can I exchange them for eh.... let's see, 2 flagons of cider, 10 packs of fags and 24 cans of Tuborg?"

phill106

Just have foodstamps

http://www.ssa.gov/pubs/10101.html

seithon

Sure, except all that really happens is you end up with a small grey/black market where the welfare money is laundered and converted into cash with the launderers taking a nice cut and then the money is spent on bull**** anyway.

Don't get me wrong it's a good idea for them to tighten things up but lets be honest setting up a system like this just inspires new types of crime to take advantage of it.

laugh

Hey Mr drug dealer how many pints of milk will get me some meth?

Biggins

Well yesterday as I was waiting for a taxi, I seen a wretched looking drunk woman trying to control her 3 starved looking kids and I thought to myself "there is something seriously wrong here" (the radio controller confirmed the mother was unemployed and a regular drunk) so if she was disabled from buying so much drink with her dole money and would have to buy food instead more so, I'm definitely in favour of such a system.

In this particular case is a very novel but very good idea. Well done California.

gonedrinking

the cost of setting it up would be too expensive for us, food stamps are a better idea

pablo_escobar

Didn't Ireland have coupons before? and weren't they exchanged for luxury goods like cigarettes and alcohol?

godwin

pablo_escobar wrote: »

Didn't Ireland have coupons before? and weren't they exchanged for luxury goods like cigarettes and alcohol?

Butter Vouchers :pac:
I used to be able to buy Cigs&Drink out of these

senordingdong

thebigbiffo wrote: »

Welfare payments are paid into bank accounts in this country which can then be used for any purchase whatsoever

They don't though.

Fair play to Arnie.

drunkmonkey

Drug test welfare recepients, that will stop any butter for pot black market.

gonedrinking

Or we could bring back soup kitchens? Instead of giving people on the dole money to fritter away on drink and drugs, give them a voucher for each day which would grant them access to the soup kitchen. Once there they would have to consume their meal in house and could not take any food away with them.

Biggins

Its an interesting concept and one that should not be knocked immediately just becuase of start-up costs in the short term. Long term results might be better?

There are a number of point that come right to mind and I'm just throwing them out there to hear others thoughts/opinions maybe.
For example:

* How does one while still unemployed gain money to cover bills such as EBS, gas, etc?

* There maybe for some a possible stigma attached to having to hand over stamps and well as been seen to do so. On the latter, a card would be a more discreet way of paying for food rather than unintentionally advertising to those behind you in a busy supermarket queue, that your unemployed and on food stamps!

And on the former (that of being a stigma attached to food stamps) and those that might say stigma or not, your unemployed and should be lucky to get them, remember that when you read in threads here (previously already) how "unemployed" here alone in threads are sometimes treated like second class citizens - only to be degraded by some and a target of anger and seen as an possibly additional source of why this country is starved of funds - thus the consistent by some, lashing out at them!

The card system is certainly an idea that merits further thought and initial start-up costs should not disparage us from doing something that in the long run, will be of benefit to all.

curlzy

I'd be totally against this. Contrary to popular belief not all social welfare recepients are scum :rolleyes:. This idea that it's ok to treat social welfare recepients like stupid people is just indicative of how nasty our hive mind has gotton. Social welfare recipents are entitled to their dignity too you know!!! This kind of idea turns my stomach to be honest.

thebigbiffo

AnonoBoy wrote: »

"Howya there boss? I just bought all these essential items in your store a few minutes ago but then I realised they're not what I need at all. Can I exchange them for eh.... let's see, 2 flagons of cider, 10 packs of fags and 24 cans of Tuborg?"

money does not go back to cash it goes back to the card...possible solution?

there's not going to be much of a black market for foodstuff and the like - unless you're a very serious alcoholic/junkie and at least then those types of 'welfare recipients' wont have as much to spend on their habits.

the more i think about this the more i like it. the technology is already there (which wasnt there in the last recession and indeed not until the early 2000's) and the savings that could be made through welfare fraud (non-residents claiming the money then bringing it home with them) would ensure it paid for itself in no time.

godwin

thebigbiffo wrote: »

money does not go back to cash it goes back to the card...possible solution?

there's not going to be much of a black market for foodstuff and the like - unless you're a very serious alcoholic/junkie and at least then those types of 'welfare recipients' wont have as much to spend on their habits.

Where there is money(digital or paper)there will always be fraud.

thebigbiffo

curlzy wrote: »

I'd be totally against this. Contrary to popular belief not all social welfare recepients are scum :rolleyes:. This idea that it's ok to treat social welfare recepients like stupid people is just indicative of how nasty our hive mind has gotton. Social welfare recipents are entitled to their dignity too you know!!! This kind of idea turns my stomach to be honest.

i'm sorry but did someone on here allude to social welfare recipients being scum, i certainly didnt!

how would this system treat people on SW as stupid exactly? how would it affect their dignity...paying with a debit card is alot less stigmatic than food stamps or vouchers which - believe me - you could see back as a feature of SW if things keep going the way they are!

this is not about stigmatising SW recipients - this is about ensuring that genuine recipients get what they deserve while those that dont arent bleeding the taxpayer for every penny!

we need to recognise that their is a distinction to be made between people who genuinely rely on support and those that dont - and they're there and costing us money, whether you like it or not.

thebigbiffo

godwin wrote: »

Where there is money(digital or paper)there will always be fraud.

i agree - but this system gets rid of many of the glaring opportunities that are there at the moment to use SW money for reasons it was not intended.

Biggins

I assume also that alcohol sales would drop significiently but that foodstuff items would arise - and if that meant that straved kids get more food over their crutial important growing years rather than their parent drink/smoke their dole money away, on that example alone - please tell me where I donate money to see this novel idea at least gains further consideration.

Biggins

godwin wrote: »

Where there is money(digital or paper)there will always be fraud.

There will always be fraud - but the least we can do is make more ways to minimise it - and this card idea just might be a significant way to help in that fraud battle.

snubbleste

Personally I think the State should leverage its buying power and ask the retail multiples to negotiate for custom at a significant discount.
The State should then issue dole recepients a proportion of their dole on a giftcard at the winning bidder's stores.

Cards already exist, just a question of linking them up to the dole recipients claim and determining the amount given.

godwin

snubbleste wrote: »

Personally I think the State should leverage its buying power and ask the retail multiples to negotiate for custom at a significant discount.
The State should then issue dole recepients a proportion of their dole on a giftcard at the winning bidder's stores.

Cards already exist, just a question of linking them up to the dole recipients claim and determining the amount given.

The state should open its own chain of supermarkets "doelos"

mickydoomsux

Great concept but it'd never happen over here. Can you imagine Scaldyballs O'Knackbag being refused booze or fags in Tesco when he hands over his debit card? There'd be chaos.

Plus you'd have the SVdeP and all the other bleeding hearts coming out saying that it's unfair that poor people can't spend their free money on cans of Tuborg and ciggies if they want to.

I think any genuine person who's fallen on hard times and is on welfare wouldn't have a problem with this type of system but you'll have the career-unemployed crying victimisation.

Biggins

godwin wrote: »

The state should open its own chain of supermarkets "doleos"

...And its with that attitude towards the unemployed that ideas like the card system should be looked at, besides just issuing paper food stamps (which by the way, can be forged too!).

RedXIV

Actually I reckon it could go the other way around. Say your on the JSA for more than a year, for someone that was employed, that time is doubled because you get JSB. After your year on JSA, hard luck sonny jim, your on the debit card

Odysseus

Good idea, but would never work. There will always be a shop that will cash it for a certain cut, therefore leaving the person with even less. Someone suggested drug testing all that would mean is the person may have to seek treatment. If it was heroin the person was using they would end up on a meth programme.

I support meth programmes but they will only help the person to the extent they want help.

seamus

Biggins wrote: »

In this particular case is a very novel but very good idea. Well done California.

I came up with this idea more than a year ago: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055718985

I am available to hire as a technology consultant for any state who wants to implement such a system. PM me, etc.

drunkmonkey

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Plus you'd have the SVdeP and all the other bleeding hearts coming out saying that it's unfair that poor people can't spend their free money on cans of Tuborg and ciggies if they want to.

The current system isn't fair on Children, there's a lot of people spending money on fags, booze and drugs that money should be going to school, food and clothes for their children.
Free money days won't last forever, money needs to go to those that need it, not to pay for sky tv & superkings.

Biggins

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Great concept but it'd never happen over here. Can you imagine Scaldyballs O'Knackbag being refused booze or fags in Tesco when he hands over his debit card? There'd be chaos. .

It would be abundantly made clear in the strongest terms to those issued with the cards that they WILL NOT be usable in the chase of alcohol.

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Plus you'd have the SVdeP and all the other bleeding hearts coming out saying that it's unfair that poor people can't spend their free money on cans of Tuborg and ciggies if they want to.

The SVP I suspect, would certainly be glad to see the poor possibly gaining more food and less alcohol/drugs I would think.

mickydoomsux

drunkmonkey wrote: »

The current system isn't fair on Children, there's a lot of people spending money on fags, booze and drugs that money should be going to school, food and clothes for their children.
Free money days won't last forever, money needs to go to those that need it, not to pay for sky tv & superkings.

The majority of these people don't care about their children in the slightest. they just have them to get "the few extra euro social" and to advance themselves up the social housing list (people with kids get priority).

Free money days will last forever though. The government that gets rid of our welfare society will pretty much be commiting political suicide.

thebigbiffo

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Great concept but it'd never happen over here. Can you imagine Scaldyballs O'Knackbag being refused booze or fags in Tesco when he hands over his debit card? There'd be chaos.

Plus you'd have the SVdeP and all the other bleeding hearts coming out saying that it's unfair that poor people can't spend their free money on cans of Tuborg and ciggies if they want to.

I think any genuine person who's fallen on hard times and is on welfare wouldn't have a problem with this type of system but you'll have the career-unemployed crying victimisation.

i can imagine the bleeding hearts up in arms alright - but a simple solution is in the idea.

dole is about €190 p/w. lets say you are capped at €50 in cash - this is enough to buy 3 packets of drum rolling tobacco, 18 cans of tuborg and still have 20 quid left to play aorund with - if you need more than that: f'uck you, why should the state pay for it?? the remainder of the 'credit' can only be used for designated items.

i seriously do not see why anybody would be against this system...

apart from the obvious dole payments, how much of the back to school allowance, clothing allowance and various other allowances is spent on s'hite out there at the moment? i'd also use the system for the single mothers allowance and every other area where cash is handed over atm...

the knock on effect is that people who can work but havent been because they have a comfortable social life on the dole are incentivized to make actual cash...