How much more should public service pay be cut ?

Denzil2222

We have all seen public servants on programs like RTEs the frontline saying they wont be able to eat if they get another pay cut, do you think they should get another pay cut ? Even those on under 25k ? If so by how much -

Nody

The over all PS salary budget (inc. quangos, senate etc.) needs to be cut to the tunes of 5 to 10 billion in total. Now this can be done in multiple different ways from reduced pension benefits for ex PS workers, lower salaries, less staff working smarter, less benefits for the elected politicans etc. This should include ALL staff all the way down and the salaries should be benchmarked in Europe and Ireland in general (and real benchmarking not the joke that was done earlier).

To do anything like this how ever you need to grasp what the over all vision of PS should be, what should be the services, how should it be measured and where should it be delivered? It also needs to lose the close regional ties it currently has.

Obviously these cuts also need to be followed by equal cuts in social wellfare payments (actually I'd even start there and cut deeper esp. for long term benefit users, i.e. 0 - 2 years, no cuts, 2 - 3, 10%, 3 - 4 25%, 4 - 5, 35%, 5+ 50% cuts).

Now that is what I think is needed, not what I expect will happened...

murphaph

Denzil2222 wrote: »

We have all seen public servants on programs like RTEs the frontline saying they wont be able to eat if they get another pay cut, do you think they should get another pay cut ? Even those on under 25k ? If so by how much -

If you're on 25k and someone in the private sector is on 20k for the same job, then you are being overpaid. There can be no more sacred cows...the pensioners and all will have to "feel the pain" as the dosh simply isn't there. Never really was.

20Cent

Nothing should be cut before the Anglo bondholders are burned. If they have been paid already a new Gov is needed who will have some right to do it.

danbohan

Denzil2222 wrote: »

We have all seen public servants on programs like RTEs the frontline saying they wont be able to eat if they get another pay cut, do you think they should get another pay cut ? Even those on under 25k ? If so by how much -

public sector workers earn on average 20-30%more than the private sector at the moment , in a ''normal'' country's it is usually 10-15% lower so on that basis cuts of 30% would suffice . only hope of the public sector been reformed is if the eu/imf force it , public sector unions should be taken on and destroyed before they destroy the country completely

johnboy_123

totally aggree...the problem is that if the unioins/ps put up a fight the IMF will cut a lot more than 30% a lot will be let go on the spot.

Spudmonkey

danbohan wrote: »

public sector workers earn on average 20-30%more than the private sector at the moment , in a ''normal'' country's it is usually 10-15% lower so on that basis cuts of 30% would suffice . only hope of the public sector been reformed is if the eu/imf force it , public sector unions should be taken on and destroyed before they destroy the country completely

Interest on Irish borrowing was rated at 7.5% today. 5 points higher than the rate the Germans are paying. If we were actually going to the bond markets there is no way we would be allowed borrow at that rate. The arrival of the IMF is the inevitable I'm afraid.

Link: http://www.rte.ie/news/2010/1103/ntma-business.html

senordingdong

Hardly fair to cut the pay of frontline Gardaí and nurses while there is an over supply if administrative and clerical staff.

bladespin

TBH I don't think PS paycuts are needed, at least not for the first few flights, the problem is numbers, there's so many administration workers basically doing nothing more than admining themselves and eachother it's crazy, if you've ever booked into a hospital you'll undersatnd what I'm saying, filling the same form out 3 times with 3 different people says to me thre's 2 too many working at that job.

gurramok

senordingdong wrote: »

Hardly fair to cut the pay of frontline Gardaí and nurses while there is an over supply if administrative and clerical staff.

Those frontline Gardaí and nurses as well as the admins are extremely well paid even after all the hullaballoo of the pension levy. If they are finding difficult to buy food, they need to look at their outgoings and start living within their means.

Gumbo

great idea, another PS bashing thread, how original............:rolleyes:

gandalf

senordingdong wrote: »

Hardly fair to cut the pay of frontline Gardaí and nurses while there is an over supply if administrative and clerical staff.

Then those Gardai and Nurses Unions should not stand shoulder to shoulder with those unions protecting staff in administrative and clerical roles who are not needed and whose continued employment will put pressure on the Gardai and Nurses wages and conditions to be effected negatively then.

I don't think blanket pay cuts are now the way forward. A radical overhaul of the PS is needed with a flattening of Management structures and a massive redundancy of unnecessary staff to be undertaken releasing resources to those on the Frontline be they Gardai, Nurses, Firemen, and Public facing public servants in various service related departments.

Smiegal

Denzil2222 wrote: »

We have all seen public servants on programs like RTEs the frontline saying they wont be able to eat if they get another pay cut, do you think they should get another pay cut ? Even those on under 25k ? If so by how much -

And we're off... More Public Sector Bashing, wooohooooo, lets try and get as many unjustified generalisations in here as possible!!!

On ye're marks, get set... GO!!!!

Cookie_Monster

20Cent wrote: »

Nothing should be cut before the Anglo bondholders are burned. If they have been paid already a new Gov is needed who will have some right to do it.

what has that got to do with it?

The current deficit even excluding the banking costs is gigantic. The PS pay budget needs to be cut by ~40-50%. A combination of pay reductions, salaries benchmarked against EU averages, cutting staff, cutting all the various outdated entitlements and expenses, reducing overtime and redeploying staff far far more effectively than they are currently as well as looking at ways of reducing the pension costs.

Spudmonkey

senordingdong wrote: »

Hardly fair to cut the pay of frontline Gardaí and nurses while there is an over supply if administrative and clerical staff.

A letter was read on Pat Kenny this morning. It relayed a woman's experience with the same procedure in the health care system of both France and Ireland.

The Irish case involved 5-6 nurses, a GP, consultant, radiologist, porter (as well as kitchen staff etc)

The French case involved only the consultant and radiologist. She was in and out the same day.

If both these procedures were the same, I think its safe to say there may be an over supply in front line services also.

Spudmonkey

Smiegal wrote: »

And we're off... More Public Sector Bashing, wooohooooo, lets try and get as many unjustified generalisations in here as possible!!!

On ye're marks, get set... GO!!!!

What does that add to anything?

Viper_JB

Smiegal wrote: »

And we're off... More Public Sector Bashing, wooohooooo, lets try and get as many unjustified generalisations in here as possible!!!

On ye're marks, get set... GO!!!!

I dunno dude no one here has been saying that PS workers do bad work, but you'd have to have your head in the sand to brush off any one who believes there's a huge amount of wasted money in the public sector.

ardmacha

public sector workers earn on average 20-30%more than the private sector at the moment

Evidence? Or did you just pluck a figure out of your head.

senordingdong

Spudmonkey wrote: »

If both these procedures were the same, I think its safe to say there may be an over supply in front line services also.

Possibly.
But if that's the case then cutting everybodies pay is hardly the answer.

gandalf

Spudmonkey wrote: »

If both these procedures were the same, I think its safe to say there may be an over supply in front line services also.

I think its more a case of bad management in the HSE not using staff in the most efficient manner possible. Having unfortunately seen our health service in action over the last number of years due to family illnesses I think our front line services are stretched very thinly indeed. One of the main reasons for this is bad management and resources being wasted on unnecessary staff in clerical/admin functions.

Having done business with them from a administrative side the lack of responsibility of people in senior positions was quite shocking for me to observe. This portion of the PS needs a complete overhaul on its management structure and its ethos.

Spudmonkey

gandalf wrote: »

I think its more a case of bad management in the HSE not using staff in the most efficient manner possible. Having unfortunately seen our health service in action over the last number of years due to family illnesses I think our front line services are stretched very thinly indeed. One of the main reasons for this is bad management and resources being wasted on unnecessary staff in clerical/admin functions.

Having done business with them from a administrative side the lack of responsibility of people in senior positions was quite shocking for me to observe. This portion of the PS needs a complete overhaul on its management structure and its ethos.

I would say that yes, bad management plays a part. However I reckon unions and union mentality plays a bigger role. How many times have we heard of people being asked to do something only to hear the response that it isn't in their job description.

In the French case above, the consultant played the role of all the nurses (providing her with whatever care she needed on the way for an x-ray) and the porter (the woman was walked to the x-ray and did not need to be pushed). The woman was not kept in overnight as it was not required and therefore required no meals.

Yes you can say poor management is the cause of that, or you can say that many of these people are simply not required. Just because something isn't in a job description doesn't mean that somebody can't be expected to do it. It is in their and the people that they serves best interest that they are willing and able to adapt to that change and not require the use of their unions to decide will or if they will.

Spudmonkey

senordingdong wrote: »

Possibly.
But if that's the case then cutting everybodies pay is hardly the answer.

Frankly I am not a special interest group. I don't care how the books balance so long as they do. One or the other needs to be cut, numbers or pay.

I was merely responding to the above point where there is a common misconception that if front line services are cut, this will affect the public. I don't believe this is the case.

20Cent

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

what has that got to do with it?

The current deficit even excluding the banking costs is gigantic. The PS pay budget needs to be cut by ~40-50%. A combination of pay reductions, salaries benchmarked against EU averages, cutting staff, cutting all the various outdated entitlements and expenses, reducing overtime and redeploying staff far far more effectively than they are currently as well as looking at ways of reducing the pension costs.

It has everything to do with it. This Gov has put Banks and Bondholders ahead of the people for two long. These bondholders gambled and lost so in a proper economy it should be tough luck. FF have lost the mandate or the right to make further cuts.

Even the markets only see FF as temporary, FF are part of the problem they need to be removed before progress can be made.

Tim Robbins

Denzil2222 wrote: »

We have all seen public servants on programs like RTEs the frontline saying they wont be able to eat if they get another pay cut, do you think they should get another pay cut ? Even those on under 25k ? If so by how much -

It's difficult to get information on how much they currently get paid and how much their skills are worth at market prices.

You'd need another bench marking process.

20Cent

Tim Robbins wrote: »

It's difficult to get information on how much they currently get paid and how much their skills are worth at market prices.

You'd need another bench marking process.

Aren't all the pay scales listed on the Internet and published.
So not difficult to find out how much they get paid.

murphaph

20Cent wrote: »

It has everything to do with it. This Gov has put Banks and Bondholders ahead of the people for two long. These bondholders gambled and lost so in a proper economy it should be tough luck. FF have lost the mandate or the right to make further cuts.

Even the markets only see FF as temporary, FF are part of the problem they need to be removed before progress can be made.

...and then you'll accept cuts from FG?

Spudmonkey

20Cent wrote: »

It has everything to do with it. This Gov has put Banks and Bondholders ahead of the people for two long. These bondholders gambled and lost so in a proper economy it should be tough luck. FF have lost the mandate or the right to make further cuts.

Even the markets only see FF as temporary, FF are part of the problem they need to be removed before progress can be made.

It is going to cost 1.5bn a year to service the bank bailout. You take this out and there is still a whopping large whole in the countries finances.

Sure it may seem unfair having to pay this, but removing this is hardly going to make much of dent.

Is is a gesture you are after or do you seriously think that this is out largest problem?

Count Dooku

senordingdong wrote: »

Hardly fair to cut the pay of frontline Gardaí and nurses while there is an over supply if administrative and clerical staff.

+1
Government must identify most critical areas(mostly law enforcing and revenue collection), preserve them from cuts and mostly target pen-pushers within public services

freckly

While I agree that money has to be saved, generalistaions like lets cut all public sector pay by % are dangerous. Less disposable income means less spending and the further loss of private sector jobs. I work in the public sector and could take a cut, but not 30% to be made a scapegoat for the country's problems. I also have the experience of having worked in the public sector in another EU country. Less pay, even when the lower cost of living was factored in, but my God was the system unproductive. Cut the deadwood but remember what you get if you pay peanuts! Do we want the next generation to be stupid? Prisoners to riot? People to die because of shortages? Criminals to gain even more of a foothold?

TheBlock

Pensions people...it's the pensions that will kill us. Scrap DB pensions,Scrap the link to current pay, reduce the 1-1.5 times final slaary lump.

The PS Unions should be in with Gov now negotiating on how much they are willing to give up cause when the big guns arrive there will be no negtiating just cuts.

I can't believe PS workers can't see this coming surely they haven't all buried there heads in the sand.

hondasam

Think Positive every one, ye might actually get to like it:D

The_Honeybadger

freckly wrote: »

While I agree that money has to be saved, generalistaions like lets cut all public sector pay by % are dangerous. Less disposable income means less spending and the further loss of private sector jobs.

Sorry but I can't agree with this, if you want a stimulus package fine, it could be a very good thing, but there are better ways to stimulate the economy than by maintaining artificially high wages for public servants. I'm not saying cut anybody by XYZ amount, but the argument that jobs may be lost if you do is not a very strong one. People public or private aren't spending anyway, and most people with good jobs and disposable income are saving like crazy because they are in terror of losing their job or some of their income.

johnboy_123

TheBlock wrote: »

Pensions people...it's the pensions that will kill us. Scrap DB pensions,Scrap the link to current pay, reduce the 1-1.5 times final slaary lump.

The PS Unions should be in with Gov now negotiating on how much they are willing to give up cause when the big guns arrive there will be no negtiating just cuts.

I can't believe PS workers can't see this coming surely they haven't all buried there heads in the sand.

Its not so much that each facet of the differing areas within the P.S are waiting for the other to start cutting. Well the HSE has started and this has caused a sh1t storm and quite rightly. 5000 people being asked to take early retirement or redundancy and yet with this reduction they say there will be no impact in services...I cant understand what these additional 5000 people where doing and why now we have to pay them either Penions/redundancies.... I really hope the IMF come in because they will cut and slash and their is not a damn thing the unions can do..Strike away but you will get no sympathy from the already demoralised and down trodden private sector

ei.sdraob

How much more should public service pay be cut ?

Until the average earnings are in line with private sector (904 euro down to about 650 average).

It be nice if CSO or whoever provided a proper distribution of earnings for both sectors, it wont be fair of course to have alot of low paid workers in PS and few wasters pushing paper around increasing the average

Call it Reverse Benchmarking, do other countries with as much (or close) of a contraction as our pay their PS workers such a premium??

danbohan

kceire wrote: »

great idea, another PS bashing thread, how original............:rolleyes:

Summary
One-Year Chart INTERACTIVE CHART Value 7.40 Change 0.108 (1.477%) Open 7.29 High 7.41 Low 7.2

Thease the real public sector bashers .

frank reynolds

look, any jealous fvckers out there that say that PS needs to be cut AGAIN are just that... jealous. many people joined the PS because of the secure job and pension etc.

nobody in the PS ever entered the job dreaming to make their millions, because everyone knows that is not possible.

it was the greed and snobbery of the private sector that got us into this mess, and now it's their jealousy that is driving this campaign to RUIN the lives of humble PS workers. yes, there may be a few too many of us, but that is not the problem.

the biggest problem is the HIGH paid earners. THEY STILL HAVENT BEEN CUT AT ALL!!!! it is people like me, on 26k a year that have had VICIOUS cuts and are expecting more. what are we supposed to do?

anyone who says we should be cut again are sick in the head and are proving themselves to be pure "oirish" -green with envy.

suck it up losers. you aint gettin my money!

ei.sdraob

frank reynolds wrote: »

look, any jealous fvckers out there that say that PS needs to be cut AGAIN are just that... jealous. many people joined the PS because of the secure job and pension etc.

nobody in the PS ever entered the job dreaming to make their millions, because everyone knows that is not possible.

it was the greed and snobbery of the private sector that got us into this mess, and now it's their jealousy that is driving this campaign to RUIN the lives of humble PS workers. yes, there may be a few too many of us, but that is not the problem.

the biggest problem is the HIGH paid earners. THEY STILL HAVENT BEEN CUT AT ALL!!!! it is people like me, on 26k a year that have had VISCIOUS cuts and are expecting more. what are we supposed to do?

anyone who says we should be cut again are sick in the head and are proving themselves to be pure "oirish" -green with envy.

suck it up losers. you aint gettin my money!

Realistic is a proper word

Any employees of private companies that where this deep in debt would have been fired by now, with company in liquidation or receivership


Thats what we need, put the country into receivership of sorts and try to save any viable parts, burn the rest

frank reynolds

i think everyone needs to just get on with their own thing and stop worrying (out of jealousy) about the other side.

you play your game, i'll play mine pal.

The private sector has already been vilified as the cause of this mess, and now, with arguments and campaigns against low paid PS workers, you are doing yourselves no favours again.

dont forget... we get cut, it's up the north we go for our shopping, and i believe im not alone when i say that.

i would definitely do it out of spite after this type of talk.

murphaph

frank reynolds wrote: »

look, any jealous fvckers out there that say that PS needs to be cut AGAIN are just that... jealous. many people joined the PS because of the secure job and pension etc.

nobody in the PS ever entered the job dreaming to make their millions, because everyone knows that is not possible.

it was the greed and snobbery of the private sector that got us into this mess, and now it's their jealousy that is driving this campaign to RUIN the lives of humble PS workers. yes, there may be a few too many of us, but that is not the problem.

the biggest problem is the HIGH paid earners. THEY STILL HAVENT BEEN CUT AT ALL!!!! it is people like me, on 26k a year that have had VICIOUS cuts and are expecting more. what are we supposed to do?

anyone who says we should be cut again are sick in the head and are proving themselves to be pure "oirish" -green with envy.

suck it up losers. you aint gettin my money!

I know, you're getting mine!

Dear oh dear Frank. Look at the post above yours. The bond markets are effectively closed to ireland now. We have lost sovereignty as we will be going cap in hand to the EU/IMF/BOTH by April at the latest. They will then dictate the savings to be made and I assure you, they will be real, quantifiable numbers, not some vagueness issued by one of your unions.

They will 100% involve redundancies and likely lots of admin staff will go. I wouldn't be so vociferous if I were you, you might be joining the ranks of the non-public-sector sooner than you think.

Nody

frank reynolds wrote: »

it was the greed and snobbery of the private sector that got us into this mess, and now it's their jealousy that is driving this campaign to RUIN the lives of humble PS workers. yes, there may be a few too many of us, but that is not the problem.

the biggest problem is the HIGH paid earners. THEY STILL HAVENT BEEN CUT AT ALL!!!! it is people like me, on 26k a year that have had VICIOUS cuts and are expecting more. what are we supposed to do?

suck it up losers. you aint gettin my money!

First of all the problem is not that there are a few to many, the problem is that there are far to many earning far to much.

Secondly it is not your money, it is money paid in by the private sector (your money that you pay in taxes is going in one hand and out to you again, i.e. book keeping).

Third, the problem is that there is simply no money to keep paying for all PS workers; hence the 20 Billion gap in the yearly budget and the 7%+ interest rate on Irish bonds.

And the first PS worker who mentions bank bailout can go find the rest of the saving minus the cost of it (it is 1.5 Billion a year difference, it is still 18.5 billion short a year in income - expenses).

ei.sdraob

frank reynolds wrote: »

i think everyone needs to just get on with their own thing and stop worrying (out of jealousy) about the other side.

you play your game, i'll play mine pal.

The private sector has already been vilified as the cause of this mess, and now, with arguments and campaigns against low paid PS workers, you are doing yourselves no favours again.

dont forget... we get cut, it's up the north we go for our shopping, and i believe im not alone when i say that.

i would definitely do it out of spite after this type of talk.

Actually the low paid & temp public workers are being pooped on by their unions and the higher paid "ones"

but of course go ahead and blame the rest of the country...

edit: i am not a socialist, i have no issues with people earning alot, if they earned it, thats the bit some people have issue with they dont see any value for money in the PS

The_Honeybadger

frank reynolds wrote: »

dont forget... we get cut, it's up the north we go for our shopping, and i believe im not alone when i say that.

Yeah that'll help your cause alright:rolleyes:

dean21

Sack 100k off them
And cut all there pay by 50%
Let the private sector die on the street and educate there kids at home
Like as it stand 450K of them are sitting on there ass at home doing nothing

TheBlock

frank reynolds wrote: »

i think everyone needs to just get on with their own thing and stop worrying (out of jealousy) about the other side.

you play your game, i'll play mine pal.

The private sector has already been vilified as the cause of this mess, and now, with arguments and campaigns against low paid PS workers, you are doing yourselves no favours again.

dont forget... we get cut, it's up the north we go for our shopping, and i believe im not alone when i say that.

i would definitely do it out of spite after this type of talk.

Excellent post Frank I think I've changed my mind. We don't need to reduce the public sector wage bill at all. The only thing I wonder is where the money is going to come from any Ideas??

I think I'll join you in further depressing the economy and reducing the tax take by spending my money outside the state (The one that partially pays me, cause I work in a Semi State Org). That'll show me...I mean them.

dan_d

Has this not been discussed to death already?:rolleyes:

Since there's already been a cut across the board in the PS, we now need to start going top down.

Salaries at the top must be cut. Immediately. In 2 months time, move down and take in the next layers of the PS, with a slightly lesser cut. 2 months after that, down again. And keep going til you've cut a certain target. I'm not sure I agree that those on 25k and under should be cut.

Following that, head into the "efficiency" side of things. Clear out the middle management, admin, clerks etc. Especially focusing on the HSE. Move dept by dept. looking at "middle management" til you've hit them all, with a timescale of a year, maximum.

And think long and hard about a centralised computer database, accessible to all depts who require it (SW, TAX, Revenue etc), with PPSN numbers and people's details on it. Would instantly eliminate a vast amount of waste.

As for PS workers who go around saying "you're all jealous"...you're so far off the mark there you're in another universe. Personally, I'm not jealous at all. I chose my career and my job - and following that, unemployment. It's how the chips fall. Good for you, you went to the PS. Big deal. A job's a job at the end of the day. As for parroting that the private sector got us into this mess, it would appear that you have an impaired understanding of the entire situation. The point you are currently missing is that we are in this mess 2 years now, and being driven further into it by the rate of pay we are handing to our public servants. So jump in the pool, we've all contributed to the situation we find ourselves in.

And I'd be wary of lecturing about average pay in the PS, vs average pay in the private. Average is a very open measurement, it rarely gives a very accurate reflection of what you are looking at and can be skewed.

Tigger

frank reynolds wrote: »

look, any jealous fvckers out there that say that PS needs to be cut AGAIN are just that... jealous. many people joined the PS because of the secure job and pension etc.

nobody in the PS ever entered the job dreaming to make their millions, because everyone knows that is not possible.

it was the greed and snobbery of the private sector that got us into this mess, and now it's their jealousy that is driving this campaign to RUIN the lives of humble PS workers. yes, there may be a few too many of us, but that is not the problem.

the biggest problem is the HIGH paid earners. THEY STILL HAVENT BEEN CUT AT ALL!!!! it is people like me, on 26k a year that have had VICIOUS cuts and are expecting more. what are we supposed to do?

anyone who says we should be cut again are sick in the head and are proving themselves to be pure "oirish" -green with envy.

suck it up losers. you aint gettin my money!

shouldnt you be working

the biggest problem is that the public sector is over staffed

dean21

murphaph wrote: »

I know, you're getting mine!

Dear oh dear Frank. Look at the post above yours. The bond markets are effectively closed to ireland now. We have lost sovereignty as we will be going cap in hand to the EU/IMF/BOTH by April at the latest. They will then dictate the savings to be made and I assure you, they will be real, quantifiable numbers, not some vagueness issued by one of your unions.

They will 100% involve redundancies and likely lots of admin staff will go. I wouldn't be so vociferous if I were you, you might be joining the ranks of the non-public-sector sooner than you think.

One this that will go will be low coporation tax
So at least 100k more private sector worker are heading to the dole line
We will have about 500k on the dole for next 10 years
All cause by private sector scum in the bank
Well done private sector you are an example to every county in the world on how to f**K up you country

Spudmonkey

dean21 wrote: »

One this that will go will be low coporation tax
So at least 100k more private sector worker are heading to the dole line
We will have about 500k on the dole for next 10 years
All cause by private sector scum in the bank
Well done private sector you are an example to every county in the world on how to f**K up you country

I can see the mods busy this evening

Dean, are you in favour of increasing this corporation tax and seeing these people heading to the dole line?

TheBlock

dean21 wrote: »

One this that will go will be low coporation tax
So at least 100k more private sector worker are heading to the dole line
We will have about 500k on the dole for next 10 years
All cause by private sector scum in the bank
Well done private sector you are an example to every county in the world on how to f**K up you country

This is complete drivel.

ardmacha

As for Frank Reynolds, your contribution on another thread is a fair indication of where you are coming from

can someone explain to me what exactly is "trolling"? hahaha every time i see people complain about trolling i break my boll!x laughing...

is THIS trolling?

Salaries at the top must be cut. Immediately. In 2 months time, move down and take in the next layers of the PS, with a slightly lesser cut. 2 months after that, down again. And keep going til you've cut a certain target. I'm not sure I agree that those on 25k and under should be cut.

Do you not see that this type of arbitrary approach completely lacks credibility. Cuts based on nothing in particular, which ignore the person's job, the salary they would get in the private sector, their experience, whether they are in short supply ans whether they are making an important contribution (or not)

And I'd be wary of lecturing about average pay in the PS, vs average pay in the private. Average is a very open measurement, it rarely gives a very accurate reflection of what you are looking at and can be skewed.

Indeed. On average each adult human has one breast and one testicle, but this is of limited use without further information.

changes

Not one more cent should be taken of PS pay until the farce that is childrens allowance is dealt with properly.

Listening to pat kenny this morning its a pure farce, disney, holidays, savings for this savings for that. Make people apply for it through CWO's.