Does Declan Kidney hate Leo Cullen?

forlorndonkey · 03-11-2010 3:04am #1

There is nothing the man can do to get a place, Kidney would stick Peter Stringer in the scrum ahead of him sooner than play him. Last year he got a chance in the 6 nations, he won every line out and stole several and was the stand out player by far and away. Kidney dropped him and we lost virtually all our line outs against Scotland. Realistically, having captained Leinster to the Heineken Cup, and played a blinder given the opportunity for Ireland, what else can he do? What else could he be expected to do?

phog · 03-11-2010 7:19am

Probably return from injury sooner than he did.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 03-11-2010 7:38am

phog wrote: »

Probably return from injury sooner than he did.

I agree, he will probably get a run out against new zealand or Argentina and Samoa.

myflipflops · 03-11-2010 7:44am

Replace 'Declan Kidney' with 'all Irish coaches' and 'Leo Cullen' with 'Bob Casey' and you may have a relevant thread.

Username37 · 03-11-2010 9:13am

phog wrote: »

Probably return from injury sooner than he did.

Hes had the same amount of playing time as Keith Earls who seems to be in contention.

Username37 · 03-11-2010 9:15am

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I agree, he will probably get a run out against new zealand or Argentina and Samoa.

Argentina or Samoa. Not New Zealand. The team you see against South Africa will be the team playing New Zealand minus any injuries. Unless a player has an absolute shocker he won't be dropped but even then going on Tomas O'Leary's continued selection after that France game that might not be so true!

JustinDee · 03-11-2010 9:22am

forlorndonkey wrote: »

There is nothing the man can do to get a place, Kidney would stick Peter Stringer in the scrum ahead of him sooner than play him. Last year he got a chance in the 6 nations, he won every line out and stole several and was the stand out player by far and away. Kidney dropped him and we lost virtually all our line outs against Scotland. Realistically, having captained Leinster to the Heineken Cup, and played a blinder given the opportunity for Ireland, what else can he do? What else could he be expected to do?

As said elsewhere, Dec Kidney is not the only selector. The team manager and the assistant coaches are also involved in the selection process.

The Rooster · 03-11-2010 9:22am

Leo is a warrior and a tremendous character. Must have been very difficult to keep quiet after his treatment last year by Kidney, but he just gets on with it.

JustinDee wrote: »

As said elsewhere, Dec Kidney is not the only selector. The team manager and the assistant coaches are also involved in the selection process.

So you're saying that if the team manager and assistant coaches all thought that Cullen was worth his place, but Kidney thought he wasn't - that Kidney would disregard his own opinion and go with the majority?

Might be true I suppose. Personally I don't believe it.

Username37 · 03-11-2010 9:26am

JustinDee wrote: »

As said elsewhere, Dec Kidney is not the only selector. The team manager and the assistant coaches are also involved in the selection process.

And who does the ultimate decision come down to?

PhatPiggins · 03-11-2010 9:58am

Interesting first post for a new user

leshogan · 03-11-2010 10:01am

I think he is just too ugly to play for ireland, the oppsotion would be horrified

03-11-2010 10:17am

Nice try, Leo

bamboozle · 03-11-2010 10:26am

for second rows Kidney has a special logic when it comes to selecting players

Firstly comes Magners League form, next comes AIL form, next comes Heiniken Cup form - especially important in HC form is how players play against french teams who have made 10 changes and have no interest in turning up physically,

obviously it is important to disregard how our second rows play against teams who take great pride in their lineout such as lets say London Irish, how these players guage against 36 year old english has beens is far more relevant.

ghosttown · 03-11-2010 10:31am

Now that you mention it, Leo does look a bit like a Forlorn Donkey....

forlorndonkey · 03-11-2010 10:39am

phog wrote: »

Probably return from injury sooner than he did.

POC and DOC are often played injured. As are BOD and Darcy. In fact case in point, BOD will be played as soon as he's 70% and we all know it. It's the same old untouchables nonsense of 4 years ago rearing it's head again and it will cost us dear.

Take Fionn Carr for instance, not even 1 cap. Really? I mean all we have at the moment are centres out on the wing, and the man with genuine pace to exploit overlaps who has been 1st and 2nd in the Magners league for tries scored in the last few years doesn't deserve even 1 chance to prove himself? Just proves the English are right when they say the Magners League is a joke and we just go all out for the Heineken Cup.

Or Bob Casey. Or Sean O Brien being left out for bloody Leamy. It's the same old untouchables, there are less of them but they are there. If they are able to hop along on one leg they'll get their place.

Does it disturb anyone else when they hear about players like Darcy being allowed to play through muscle tears? I mean if that doesn't prove you're an untouchable I don't know what does. I think it's disgusting all round from both the players end and the coaching end that a player would allow himself to play ahead of someone he knows can do a better job than him.

phog · 03-11-2010 10:54am

forlorndonkey wrote: »

.

Or Bob Casey. Or Sean O Brien being left out for bloody Leamy. It's the same old untouchables, there are less of them but they are there. If they are able to hop along on one leg they'll get their place.

Leamy is a fine player and well worth his spot, in fact, he should certainly get a start in at least 2 of the AIs. Cant see what anyone has against him.

forlorndonkey · 03-11-2010 11:07am

phog wrote: »

Leamy is a fine player and well worth his spot, in fact, he should certainly get a start in at least 2 of the AIs. Cant see what anyone has against him.

Yes but he doesn't deserve a place n the squad ahead of SOB on current form.

Exiled2NY · 03-11-2010 11:35am

forlorndonkey wrote: »

Yes but he doesn't deserve a place n the squad ahead of SOB on current form.

Have you watched any games this year? Leamy is in great form, he is the form backrow in Munster. he is definitely in better form than Ferris and wallace.

My form backrow would be Leamy, Heaslip and SOB at 7

forlorndonkey · 03-11-2010 11:54am

Ah Jaysus lads can we avoid going off on a tangeant arguing about SOB? What I'm really talking about is how our World Cup might well be ruined by the untouchables we have right now. If players are being started injured and in bad form then it's just going to be 2007 all over.

If we have Leo Cullen playing then that's the lineout *sorted*. This is a huge deal.

antogz1979 · 03-11-2010 12:04pm

forlorndonkey wrote: »

Ah Jaysus lads can we avoid going off on a tangeant arguing about SOB? What I'm really talking about is how our World Cup might well be ruined by the untouchables we have right now. If players are being started injured and in bad form then it's just going to be 2007 all over.

If we have Leo Cullen playing then that's the lineout *sorted*. This is a huge deal.

Inform us who the untouchables are. I presume you are reffering to MOD,Wallace, Darcy, Kearney, and to a lessed extinct DOC,BOD,Fitzgerald, wouldi be right in saying that.

davidpfitz · 03-11-2010 12:07pm

forlorndonkey wrote: »

If we have Leo Cullen playing then that's the lineout *sorted*. This is a huge deal.

Agreed completely - he's the best lineout option we have.

I remember back in junior-school days he was so much taller than everyone else that winning lineouts, even on the opposition throw-in, was a given. He hardly even needed to jump!

To paraphrase a famous line, the tactics at that level were "Remember lads, it's a team game - so whenever you get the ball, give it to Leo".

its_phil · 03-11-2010 12:14pm

forlorndonkey wrote: »

Yes but he doesn't deserve a place n the squad ahead of SOB on current form.

If Heaslip gets injured against the Boks, I know i want Leamy slotting in at 8 instead of SOB.
But if the team was picked only on form SOB would be in there absolutely. Been brilliant for Leinster this term.

Imo Bob Casey can feel more aggrieved than Cullen,seen as he destroyed Munster's lineout in the HC.

JustinDee · 03-11-2010 12:18pm

its_phil wrote: »

Imo Bob Casey can feel more aggrieved than Cullen,seen as he destroyed Munster's lineout in the HC.

. . . then got whalloped during games in the following two weeks.
Since rescinding the captaincy at 'London' 'Irish' he has played better I'll add though.

phog · 03-11-2010 12:22pm

forlorndonkey wrote: »

Yes but he doesn't deserve a place n the squad ahead of SOB on current form.

forlorndonkey wrote: »

Ah Jaysus lads can we avoid going off on a tangeant arguing about SOB? What I'm really talking about is how our World Cup might well be ruined by the untouchables we have right now. If players are being started injured and in bad form then it's just going to be 2007 all over.

If we have Leo Cullen playing then that's the lineout *sorted*. This is a huge deal.

Who went off on the tangent of SOB?

Who's taking Leo's place that is injured and out of form?

its_phil · 03-11-2010 12:25pm

JustinDee wrote: »

. . . then got whalloped during games in the following two weeks.

Did he? Honestly didn't see him...but if thats what you say grand so.

I'd still have him on the bench ahead of donnacha ryan though

forlorndonkey · 03-11-2010 12:26pm

phog wrote: »

Who went off on the tangent of SOB?

Who's taking Leo's place that is injured and out of form?

Yeah I shouldn't have mentioned that one as it's quite controversial. We all might disagree on one or two selection choices, but there are several obvious examples, such as, and to answer your second question:

I was talking about the fact that Darcy was allowed to play on a torn groin which I mentioned in a post earlier, this means that there definitely are untouchables. And Darcy has been in bad form, by his own very high standards, for quite a while now. He hasn't been the same since being out for that long stretch.

phog · 03-11-2010 12:34pm

forlorndonkey wrote: »

I was talking about the fact that Darcy was allowed to play on a torn groin which I mentioned in a post earlier, this means that there definitely are untouchables. And Darcy has been in bad form, by his own very high standards, for quite a while now. He hasn't been the same since being out for that long stretch.

Let's not go off on tangents now

forlorndonkey · 03-11-2010 12:36pm

phog wrote: »

Let's not go off on tangents now

That's no tangent. It's a fact that he was allowed to play on a torn groin, that means as long as he can walk he's allowed play. That means he's untouchable. That means that there are undeniably untouchables on the Ireland squad. It's hugely relevant.

The upshot of this is, come the World Cup, if BOD, POC or anyone else who fits into this category is badly injured and refuses to come off, we'll lose the World Cup. That would piss me off hugely to be honest with you.

JustinDee · 03-11-2010 12:41pm

its_phil wrote: »

Did he? Honestly didn't see him...but if thats what you say grand so.:rolleyes:

No need to be like that. I'm just posting an opinion here like everyone else here.

its_phil · 03-11-2010 12:47pm

JustinDee wrote: »

No need to be like that. I'm just posting an opinion here like everyone else here.

No seriously i didnt know that, cheers for telling me because i didnt see any of the HC or GP in last two weeks. Sorry bud if you thought i was being sarcastic, just noticed i used the wrong smiley. Did not mean to offend.:(

JustinDee · 03-11-2010 12:54pm

its_phil wrote: »

No seriously i didnt know that, cheers for telling me because i didnt see any of the HC or GP in last two weeks. Sorry bud if you thought i was being sarcastic, just noticed i used the wrong smiley. Did not mean to offend.:(

No worries. All good mate.

Username37 · 03-11-2010 12:56pm

phog wrote: »

Leamy is a fine player and well worth his spot, in fact, he should certainly get a start in at least 2 of the AIs. Cant see what anyone has against him.

Hes not worth his spot over O'Brien, thats what people have against his inclusion.

laugh · 03-11-2010 1:02pm

Username37 wrote: »

Hes not worth his spot over O'Brien, thats what people have against his inclusion.

Wasn't Sean MOM against Munster? He played great stuff in the two Heineken cup matches as well. D Wallace is only recently back from injury himself but I don't mind the fact that he is starting its that Cas isn't even on the bench.

Username37 · 03-11-2010 1:07pm

laugh wrote: »

Wasn't Sean MOM against Munster? He played great stuff in the two Heineken cup matches as well. D Wallace is only recently back from injury himself but I don't mind the fact that he is starting its that Cas isn't even on the bench.

He was, then followed that MOTM performance with two consecutive MOTM performances one of which was against Racing Metro. It boggles the mind how hes not there ahead of Wallace. But how hes not there ahead of Leamy.....What is going on there?

antogz1979 · 03-11-2010 1:11pm

Username37 wrote: »

He was, then followed that MOTM performance with two consecutive MOTM performances one of which was against Racing Metro. It boggles the mind how hes not there ahead of Wallace. But how hes not there ahead of Leamy.....What is going on there?

Listen he's not their and nothing you say now is going to change that, can we change the record. I've Declan's number here if you want it to talk to him, i'm sure you'll change his mind.

its_phil · 03-11-2010 1:15pm

SOB is clearly going to get a start against Samoa, and if he impresses enough and continues his good form i'm sure he'll be in the team to face the AB's. Leamy and Wallace got the nod this time,but in two weeks one of them could easily be dropped for SOB.

We have great riches in the backrow in Ireland and I don't think Leamy coming off the bench will weaken the team in any way because he is in good form as well.

laugh · 03-11-2010 1:16pm

antogz1979 wrote: »

Listen he's not their and nothing you say now is going to change that, can we change the record. I've Declan's number here if you want it to talk to him, i'm sure you'll change his mind.

Why don't you defend your position that SOB is an over-hyped player rather than tell the rest of us to move on?

Username37 · 03-11-2010 1:17pm

its_phil wrote: »

SOB is clearly going to get a start against Samoa, and if he impresses enough and continues his good form i'm sure he'll be in the team to face the AB's. Leamy and Wallace got the nod this time,but in two weeks one of them could easily be dropped for SOB.

Just like Cullen was rewarded for his excellent performances against Italy and France last year?

its_phil · 03-11-2010 1:17pm

antogz1979 wrote: »

I've Declan's number here if you want it to talk to him, i'm sure you'll change his mind.

Could i get that off you? Would'nt mind talking to him about Fionn Carr!!!:D

its_phil · 03-11-2010 1:26pm

Username37 wrote: »

Just like Cullen was rewarded for his excellent performances against Italy and France last year?

Very true!That was a joke of a selsection. We'll just have to wait and see then with SOB after the Samoa game, thats the only way he's going to be picked at this stage against the AB's.

antogz1979 · 03-11-2010 1:27pm

its_phil wrote: »

Could i get that off you? Would'nt mind talking to him about Fionn Carr!!!:D

I totally agree there, that is a man definitley hard done by.

forlorndonkey · 03-11-2010 1:36pm

forlorndonkey wrote: »

That's no tangent. It's a fact that he was allowed to play on a torn groin, that means as long as he can walk he's allowed play. That means he's untouchable. That means that there are undeniably untouchables on the Ireland squad. It's hugely relevant.

The upshot of this is, come the World Cup, if BOD, POC or anyone else who fits into this category is badly injured and refuses to come off, we'll lose the World Cup. That would piss me off hugely to be honest with you.

Just to get things back on topic.

And good as SOB is, his rivals are close enough to him, but Leo Cullen is the key to the lineout. He's a much more important piece of the puzzle in my opinion.

As to Fionn Carr, times running out. He'd probably be a revelation as an actual running threat but the World Cup isn't that far off now and he needs to be given his chance sooner rather than later.

To be honest I think he's a far better winger than Sean Cronin is a hooker.

its_phil · 03-11-2010 1:48pm

forlorndonkey wrote: »

As to Fionn Carr, times running out. He'd probably be a revelation as an actual running threat but the World Cup isn't that far off now and he needs to be given his chance sooner rather than later.

To be honest I think he's a far better winger than Sean Cronin is a hooker.

Lets not go there with Carr please, there has been forums arguing for and against his inclusion. In the same way SOB aint playing on Saturday, Fionn aint getting a call up.

Daragh86 · 03-11-2010 2:28pm

Ha this has turned into something like a girl's soccer thread, but don't worry you'll all get your handbags back when your finished throwing them!

Seriously though I hope Kidney isn't going down the same path poor Eddie travelled, it'll only end in tears. Although I do reckon we'll see a lot of changes for the two smaller games and the likes of SOB, Cullen, etc. will get their chance again.

phog · 03-11-2010 2:43pm

Username37 wrote: »

Hes not worth his spot over O'Brien, thats what people have against his inclusion.

There's so many threads now I'm not sure where I posted it but this match should be looked at as part of a series of games. Some people seem to think that because a player isnt named for this game his chances of a WC place are gone. Couldnt be further formt he truth.

laugh wrote: »

Wasn't Sean MOM against Munster? He played great stuff in the two Heineken cup matches as well. D Wallace is only recently back from injury himself but I don't mind the fact that he is starting its that Cas isn't even on the bench.

SOB will feature in the AIs.

its_phil · 03-11-2010 2:47pm

Daragh86 wrote: »

Although I do reckon we'll see a lot of changes for the two smaller games and the likes of SOB, Cullen, etc. will get their chance again.

Cullen's not in the extended squad, so its very unlikely he'll be getting a game

The Rooster · 03-11-2010 2:47pm

its_phil wrote: »

If Heaslip gets injured against the Boks, I know i want Leamy slotting in at 8 instead of SOB.
But if the team was picked only on form SOB would be in there absolutely. Been brilliant for Leinster this term.

Imo Bob Casey can feel more aggrieved than Cullen,seen as he destroyed Munster's lineout in the HC.

Leo also dominates the lineout when playing against Munster.

Should also be said that Casey certainly got the better of him in the first match of the Heineken Cup last year (tho Cullen probably edged it in the return fixture in Twickers)

Casey has never done himself justice when wearing green for some reason. Now I think everyone agrees that he probably should have had more opportunities, but even when he got a game or two under Kidney (summer 09) he was poor. That was his last chance, he didnt take it, so he's gone.

Cullen on the other hand does all he can, imo.

Username37 · 03-11-2010 3:07pm

phog wrote: »

There's so many threads now I'm not sure where I posted it but this match should be looked at as part of a series of games. Some people seem to think that because a player isnt named for this game his chances of a WC place are gone. Couldnt be further formt he truth.

I think its pretty clear that this is Kidneys first choice 15 which is worrying for two reasons :

(1) If Kidney won't play the players in form now for the AIs then what chance will any players have come WC time that play incredibly this season and deserve their chance. For instance, its safe to say that no matter how amazing Carr is this season he won't play in the World Cup going on today's first 15 selection.

(2)What is the point in giving players like O'Brien gametime against Samoa? O'Brien should be getting gametime against the top opposition to prepare him for the World Cup. If Kidney won't risk O'Brien against South Africa in an AI game (last year he came on due to injury) then he probably won't risk him in the World Cup. If O'Brien starts against NZ and the selection is not down to injury or Wallace having a shocker I'll retract that statement.

SOB will feature in the AIs.

Yeah against Samoa, he'd be better tested in the HC than against them, pointless.

phog · 03-11-2010 6:29pm

Username37 wrote: »

I think its pretty clear that this is Kidneys first choice 15 which is worrying for two reasons :

(1) If Kidney won't play the players in form now for the AIs then what chance will any players have come WC time that play incredibly this season and deserve their chance. For instance, its safe to say that no matter how amazing Carr is this season he won't play in the World Cup going on today's first 15 selection.

(2)What is the point in giving players like O'Brien gametime against Samoa? O'Brien should be getting gametime against the top opposition to prepare him for the World Cup. If Kidney won't risk O'Brien against South Africa in an AI game (last year he came on due to injury) then he probably won't risk him in the World Cup. If O'Brien starts against NZ and the selection is not down to injury or Wallace having a shocker I'll retract that statement.

Yeah against Samoa, he'd be better tested in the HC than against them, pointless.

He is using a squad over the four games. He will try out differnet combinations, some will be liked by some folks others might be preferred but for as long as I'm following rugby that has been the case.

maddness · 03-11-2010 8:27pm

phog wrote: »

Probably return from injury sooner than he did.

What? just like Earls?

desertcircus · 03-11-2010 8:44pm

Always thought it'd be a good idea for international teams to have a serious internal challenge every couple of years - name a second coach, then allow him to pick anyone not selected for the first team's 22. Then play them against each other; you get a clearer idea of a broad range of players, and offer fringe candidates a chance to shove their name front and centre. It would have been interesting a few years ago to see O'Connell and O'Callaghan facing off against a pairing of Cullen and Casey, for example, and it would have made it a lot harder to ignore players with serious potential.

Does Declan Kidney hate Leo Cullen?

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