comeback on 2nd hand car private sale

JackCharlton

Hi My GF bought a kia sorento from a private seller 2 months ago

last week she spun it and when we got it up on a ramp
the front drive shaft is missing basically its just back wheel drive
i know the car was sold as seen but it was advertised as a 4 wheel drive
and is extremly dangerous in the wet when the turbo kicks in as all the weight is in the front .
the funny thing was the car passed the nct a week earlier before the sale
my girlfriend lost the number of the person that sold it to her

its one owner car aswell

what can we do ?
a new drive shaft from kia is 1200 euro :eek:

Ferris

If buying from a private seller the legal onus is on you to check that the car (or item) is as described/in working order. The legal term is caveat emptor which means buyer beware.

As for driveshafts I personally would get a set of a scrapped sorento. Interesting as to why the driveshafts were removed, might be an issue with the transfer box.

Big jeeps like yours are usually RWD on the road anyway.

JackCharlton

i appriciate your point about buyer beware but it was advertised as a 4 wheeldrive and not a dangerous back wheel drive
if it was front wheel drive it wouldnt be so bad

most jeeps are 4 WD
a back wheel drive jeep with the engine in the front (ie all the weight)
and turbocharged is extemly dangerous

i have never heard of a back wheel drive jeep correct me if im wrong

L1011

caveat emptor; trades descriptions etc don't apply on a private sale. He could have described it as a spaceship and not be liable for it not being one...

And as above, a lot of 4x4s operate in 2WD when on road, including base model Sorrentos. This is most likely the rear. Most RWD cars have the engine in the front.

Avns1s

JackCharlton wrote: »

i appriciate your point about buyer beware but it was advertised as a 4 wheeldrive and not a dangerous back wheel drive
if it was front wheel drive it wouldnt be so bad

most jeeps are 4 WD
a back wheel drive jeep with the engine in the front (ie all the weight)
and turbocharged is extemly dangerous

i have never heard of a back wheel drive jeep correct me if im wrong

I am correcting you because you are wrong. Any jeep I know of, operates such that you select 4WD when needed. You wouldn't normally use 4WD on the road for example. When 4WD is not selected, the jeep is 2WD (obviously) and the 2 driven wheels are the rear wheels.

Go to a scrapyard and get a drive shaft, and hope that the reason it was removed was just to do with wear or other fault on the driveshaft itself and not a fault in the Diff or transfer box.

mathepac

JackCharlton wrote: »

... the funny thing was the car passed the nct a week earlier before the sale ...

It's perfectly possible that the changes were made after the NCT and before the sale, although I've heard rumours about dealers getting NCTs for car on the basis of them having removable €50 notes fitted in the ash-trays. :eek: (yes, imagine - in Ireland)

A private seller may not :

• Deceive a prospective buyer about the condition of a car
• Sell a car that is unsafe

As it seems you have no way of contacting the seller to initiate civil proceedings against them it's academic anyway.

coylemj

JackCharlton wrote: »

a back wheel drive jeep with the engine in the front (ie all the weight)
and turbocharged is extemly dangerous

Doesn't seem to bother Mercedes drivers

Ghost Train

I think you'd need to be able to show the seller knew this was a problem. If the seller had sold it as a 2002 car when it was actually 2001 you would have a clear case for your money back or compensation

But in this case the seller can just say that you removed the drive shaft yourself? Unless there's some documentation you can produce to show seller knew otherwise. Maybe a lawyer could give you a better indication where you stand

do you have the previous owners details on any car documentation?

JackCharlton

coylemj wrote: »

Doesn't seem to bother Mercedes drivers

a mercedes is desgined to be rear wheel drive

its undrivable in the wet at 20 mph you can spin it no problem
its highly dangerous there is no weight at all in the back
i have just been told that i can get the prev owner details from the tax office
the advert said 4 wheel drive.
to make it a 2 wheel drive and back wheel drive is extemley dangerous
afaik when a 4wd is in 2wd mode its still front wheel drive no ?

kildare.17hmr

JackCharlton wrote: »

afaik when a 4wd is in 2wd mode its still front wheel drive no ?

No. All are RWD unless 4WD is selected. sugest your girlf lightens her foot on bends:rolleyes:

L1011

JackCharlton wrote: »

afaik when a 4wd is in 2wd mode its still front wheel drive no ?

rarely, as has been said in previous posts. Generally RWD.

SouperComputer

JackCharlton wrote: »

the front drive shaft is missing basically its just back wheel drive
i know the car was sold as seen but it was advertised as a 4 wheel drive
and is extremly dangerous in the wet when the turbo kicks in as all the weight is in the front .

Ah come on now, its Sorento not JUN tuned Silvia with turbos the size of a washing machine or something!

I'd say the chances of comeback might be slim. To begin with you would have to show that they knowingly sold the car in that condition. You'll want to have an inspection done on the drivetrain up front, diff and CVs as well as the middle diff. I think a breakers yard is going to be your best bet as its most likely going to need more than just a front driveshaft.....

Get posting on here http://www.sorentosite.com/ and get some more specific guidance, I'm not 100% sure on the exact transmission config on the sorrento

/edit looks like there was a recall in the US for drivetrain chatter, maybe thats why the front was disconnected?

squod

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PY8jZs8J6U

Nonoperational

You've no comeback. All they have to say is they never noticed it and they are not mechanics they don't know what your talking about.

Absurdum

JackCharlton wrote: »

a mercedes is desgined to be rear wheel drive

its undrivable in the wet at 20 mph you can spin it no problem
its highly dangerous there is no weight at all in the back

how did it take 2 months to notice this?

BostonB

As far as I know, most 4WD vehicles are not permanent 4WD. They are 2WD most of the time. Lots of cars/trucks are front engined, and RWD. BMW, Merc's etc.

The term four-wheel drive typically describes truck-like vehicles that may allow the driver to manually switch (sometimes with an automatic option) between two-wheel drive mode (if available) for streets and four-wheel drive mode for low traction conditions such as ice, mud, snow, slippery surfaces, or loose gravel.[2]
All-wheel drive (AWD) is often used to describe a "full time" 4WD

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-wheel_drive

Big Nasty

squod wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3PY8jZs8J6U

He did pretty well until he lost it on the third go-round in fairness!

golfdiva

JackCharlton wrote: »

Hi My GF bought a kia sorento from a private seller 2 months ago

last week she spun it and when we got it up on a ramp
the front drive shaft is missing basically its just back wheel drive
i know the car was sold as seen but it was advertised as a 4 wheel drive
and is extremly dangerous in the wet when the turbo kicks in as all the weight is in the front .
the funny thing was the car passed the nct a week earlier before the sale
my girlfriend lost the number of the person that sold it to her

its one owner car aswell

what can we do ?
a new drive shaft from kia is 1200 euro :eek:

Nearly all 4x4's have most of the power going to the front. You are not going to notice the difference unless you go offroad.

Fey!

Toyota Hilux Surf is RWD unless you hit the 4WD button. And the rear will overtake the front in the right (wrong) conditions!

As for the Sorento, seek legal advice quickly. Caveat emptor is all well and good, but selling a 2WD as a 4WD could be construed as fraud. Regardless of what is said here, you bought one thing but got another.

BostonB

Its not a 2WD, but a 4WD in need of repair.

Which he didn't check out properly before he bought it.

junkyarddog

It is possible that the Shaft got stolen when the car was parked somewhere,
it doesn't happen very often but it isn't unknown.

Fey!

BostonB wrote: »

Its not a 2WD, but a 4WD in need of repair.

Which he didn't check out properly before he bought it.

It's still no harm to check out the options with a qualified legal professional, rather than taking the word of the anonymous internet specialists, ranging in age from 9 to 90 with various levels of experience, non-experience, education and non-education.

Bigus

junkyarddog wrote: »

It is possible that the Shaft got stolen when the car was parked somewhere,
it doesn't happen very often but it isn't unknown.

Absolutely, met a fella last week looking for a Freelander Drive shaft to replace a stolen one while the car was parked up for the summer.

langdang

I know of one Freelander owner who had the 4wd nobbled (presumably by similar means to this sorento) on the recommendation of a cowboy "tid wear the tyres on you fierce quick otherwise"

langdang

langdang wrote: »

I know of one Freelander owner who had the 4wd nobbled (presumably by similar means to this sorento) on the recommendation of a cowboy "tid wear the tyres on you fierce quick otherwise"

Quite common on Freelanders

golfdiva

langdang wrote: »

I know of one Freelander owner who had the 4wd nobbled (presumably by similar means to this sorento) on the recommendation of a cowboy "tid wear the tyres on you fierce quick otherwise"

Most Freelanders are converted to 2wd and for good reason. Its very common for owners to take off the prop shaft off.

Dan Jaman

Are you utterly sure nobody nicked the front shaft? Some b*ggers will steal anything. Eight bolts and ten minutes, 2am.

edit; see I've been beaten to it on that one

JackCharlton

100% not stolen
car garaged at night and use the bus for work
only noticed it now with all the rain
i thought it was all in her head untill i took it for a drive last sunday and
then had it up on a ramp on monday

kona

Having never owned a 4x4 I have no idea about their driveshaft design, but coming from replacing CV joints both inner and outer, Im struggling to Imagine how the Hub is even being held on If the Driveshaft is missing, or are the CV joints still there? maybe the driveshaft popped out? (still have no idea how it could 100% fall off).

Ferris

JackCharlton wrote: »

i appriciate your point about buyer beware but it was advertised as a 4 wheeldrive and not a dangerous back wheel drive
if it was front wheel drive it wouldnt be so bad

most jeeps are 4 WD
a back wheel drive jeep with the engine in the front (ie all the weight)
and turbocharged is extemly dangerous

i have never heard of a back wheel drive jeep correct me if im wrong

there are two types of four-wheel drive offered - XE models get a system which lets the driver select all-wheel drive electronically via a dash mounted button. XS and above get a sophisticated 'torque on-demand' system that varies the amount of power to the different wheels automatically. All models have low ratio gears for trickier terrain and the Sorento can cope impressively well with challenging conditions.

Revisions in 2006 saw the addition of active head restraints to minimise whiplash injuries, front seatbelt pre-tensioners and a passenger airbag cut-off switch. An electronic stability programme - to help control skids - was added to XT specification.

http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/kia/sorento-2003.aspx?page=2


So your car can be either selectable 4wd or if it the highest spec model it will do it automatically depending on which axle has grip. You need to find out what spec level your car is. Like has been said most large 4wd suv's are designed to be rwd on the road.

I think you need a good (independant) mechanic to define the problem before you decide what to do legally. Like I said I would look for a replacement driveshaft from a breakers if you're stuck with the problem.

As for it being dangerous to drive that is unlikely to change once the car is put back together properly unless its the XS model. You might do well to inspect the tyres as some are far better in wet conditions than others.

Reloc8

Ferris wrote: »

If buying from a private seller the legal onus is on you to check that the car (or item) is as described/in working order. The legal term is caveat emptor which means buyer beware.

As for driveshafts I personally would get a set of a scrapped sorento. Interesting as to why the driveshafts were removed, might be an issue with the transfer box.

Big jeeps like yours are usually RWD on the road anyway.

Actually not really :-

Section 13 (2) Sale of Goods & Supply of Services Act 1980 :

"Without prejudice to any other condition or warranty, in every contract for the sale of a motor vehicle (except a contract in which the buyer is a person whose business it is to deal in motor vehicles) there is an implied condition that at the time of delivery of the vehicle under the contract it is free from any defect which would render it a danger to the public, including persons travelling in the vehicle."

It depends on who is buying not who is selling. A private seller is still caught by this, which relates to dangerous defects, as opposed to simple 'quality' issues (e.g. mileage).

Under Section 13(3) a dealer in MPV's is obliged to give a certificate that the vehicle is free from such defects (unless the agreement mentioned below is reached) at point of sale. If this is not done, it is presumed until the contrary is shown that a dangerous defect existed at point of sale. In a private sale no such presumption exists, i.e. a private purchaser must prove the defect existed when the car was bought. It is often difficult to do so.

The only way out of this provision is where a signed document agreeing that the vehicle is not for use in its current condition is signed by the parties.

kildare.17hmr

There is no dangerous defect just no 4wd.

Reloc8

Its a bit of a moveable feast - if the car spun because of the condition it was in that's within the section or there is the potential for any danger because of the alleged defect that is too.

kildare.17hmr

But even if the front drives had been there the car still would have spun if it was in 2wd mode for normal driving

BostonB

Just goes to show most people don't know anything about the technology they are buying.

JackCharlton

i went up to Kia this morning and was talking to a mechanic

all Sorrentos operate and are setup for front wheel drive with an option for 4wd switchable on the dashboard

he confirmed to me that it would never operate safely as a back wheel drive due to the engine and gearbox being in the front (unlike mercs bmws etc)
he advised me to be extemly cautious in the wet as its 170bhp and when the turbo kicks in if you were going around a corner it would be unsafe

i called the buyer this morning and he is getting back to me today
i also spoke to a solicitor who said that even if the car was sold as seen
it was advertised as a 4wd and also should not have been sold in a dangerous condition

robtri

JackCharlton wrote: »

i called the buyer this morning and he is getting back to me today
i also spoke to a solicitor who said that even if the car was sold as seen
it was advertised as a 4wd and also should not have been sold in a dangerous condition

this is correct, if it can be shown that the car was sold in an unsafe and dangerous condition without disclosing it, then yes you would have a case...
this is beyond buyer beware

JackCharlton

the car is normally front wheel drive its switchable to 4wd
its never full time back wheel drive

Ferris wrote: »

[URL]
http://www.parkers.co.uk/cars/reviews/kia/sorento-2003.aspx?page=2[/URL]


So your car can be either selectable 4wd or if it the highest spec model it will do it automatically depending on which axle has grip. You need to find out what spec level your car is. Like has been said most large 4wd suv's are designed to be rwd on the road.

I think you need a good (independant) mechanic to define the problem before you decide what to do legally. Like I said I would look for a replacement driveshaft from a breakers if you're stuck with the problem.

As for it being dangerous to drive that is unlikely to change once the car is put back together properly unless its the XS model. You might do well to inspect the tyres as some are far better in wet conditions than others.

BostonB

JackCharlton wrote: »

i went up to Kia this morning and was talking to a mechanic

all Sorrentos operate and are setup for front wheel drive with an option for 4wd switchable on the dashboard

he confirmed to me that it would never operate safely as a back wheel drive due to the engine and gearbox being in the front (unlike mercs bmws etc)
he advised me to be extemly cautious in the wet as its 170bhp and when the turbo kicks in if you were going around a corner it would be unsafe

i called the buyer this morning and he is getting back to me today
i also spoke to a solicitor who said that even if the car was sold as seen
it was advertised as a 4wd and also should not have been sold in a dangerous condition

While this Sorrentos might not be configured to be RWD, its wrong to suggest that 2WD, RWD with the engine and gear box in the front is dangerous. Theres loads of cars that are set up like this, and many have them have vastly more than 170bhp. Its pretty common. I'd be worried about a mechanic who said otherwise.

If the Sorrentos not designed to be RWD you'd think it would have have some sort of safety feature to detect this and not let you drive like that.

JackCharlton

yes i agree 100%
cars that are SETUP like that from the manufacturer
a kia sorento isnt
what safety features would there be to detect if someone removed a driveshaft?
are you aware of any ? im not!!

BostonB wrote: »

While this Sorrentos might not be configured to be RWD, its wrong to suggest that 2WD, RWD with the engine and gear box in the front is dangerous. Theres loads of cars that are set up like this, and many have them have vastly more than 170bhp. Its pretty common. I'd be worried about a mechanic who said otherwise.

If the Sorrentos not designed to be RWD you'd think it would have have some sort of safety feature to detect this and not let you drive like that.

Henry Ford III

I think you're on a loser OP.

The private seller could claim "I didn't know anything was wrong with it or missing". It'd be I think impossible to prove otherwise.

The moral is always check a private sale car over fully. A shortcut could be an expensive mistake.

BostonB

JackCharlton wrote: »

yes i agree 100%
cars that are SETUP like that from the manufacturer
a kia sorento isnt
what safety features would there be to detect if someone removed a driveshaft?
are you aware of any ? im not!!

I'm sure it would be pretty easy to design a sensor that detects when only the rear driver shaft is spinning. If its that big a safety issue. If you google on the web its looks like the Sorento has been RWD and FWD at times.

Ferris

JackCharlton wrote: »

the car is normally front wheel drive its switchable to 4wd
its never full time back wheel drive

Your mechanic may be incorrect. I have attached a description of the 2003-2010 sorento's 4wd system which comes from the workshop manual. It says that the sorento is rwd for 2wd

I got it from here:
http://www.kia-forums.com/2003-2010-sorento-forum/52263-workshop-manual-download.html

I doubt you care, fact is that you were sold a dodgy car and may now be stuck with it. Even if you can prove that the seller misled you dangerously you would still have to get money out of them. Its a crappy situation to be in.

It might pay to get a 2nd opinion from another garage. You might also try looking it up in the owners manual, its bound to be there somewhere what wheels are normally driven in 2wd.

Zubeneschamali

BostonB wrote: »

I'm sure it would be pretty easy to design a sensor that detects when only the rear driver shaft is spinning.

That'd be very useful for detecting if a dishonest seller removed the front driveshaft to mask some other issue with the 4WD system before unloading it on an unsuspecting second hand buyer, all right.

I wonder why all makers don't fit them.

kildare.17hmr

The 05 auto in my yard is RWD for 2wd and the 04 manual i sold my mates mother last year is also RWD for 2wd

kildare.17hmr

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That'd be very useful for detecting if a dishonest seller removed the front driveshaft to mask some other issue with the 4WD system before unloading it on an unsuspecting second hand buyer, all right.

I wonder why all makers don't fit them.

Why be a smart ****? Most jeeps have this already with the 4 wheel drive display on the dash

mickdw

Its now RWD. OP you will find that on acceleration there is significant weight transfer to the rear and without a doubt the rear wheels will have lots of traction. Obviously being rear drive (now), it wont be as idiot proof as a front drive model and therefore there are situations where applying too much accelerator will unsettle the chassis. THis is also true for all rear drive cars and you basically must be aware that you are driving a RWD
To be honest it says alot about the drivers of this jeep that nobody noticed what wheels were driving it until it kicked around on the road. If you dont know what wheels are driven, you cant know how to drive it.
In relation to its power, it hardly a rocket ship and the power should be easily handled. Even so you still cant go planting the accelerator at the wrong time. This is true in most cars though.
If not happy with it, get it sorted but I think a bit of understanding should help an awful lot with the driving of it.
I dont know how successful you will be in contacting the seller. In my opinion, you should really have been having a much better look at it before buying. No doubt, it has issues much more costly than the drive shaft.

copacetic

JackCharlton wrote: »

i went up to Kia this morning and was talking to a mechanic

all Sorrentos operate and are setup for front wheel drive with an option for 4wd switchable on the dashboard

he confirmed to me that it would never operate safely as a back wheel drive due to the engine and gearbox being in the front (unlike mercs bmws etc)
he advised me to be extemly cautious in the wet as its 170bhp and when the turbo kicks in if you were going around a corner it would be unsafe

i called the buyer this morning and he is getting back to me today
i also spoke to a solicitor who said that even if the car was sold as seen
it was advertised as a 4wd and also should not have been sold in a dangerous condition

Like a lot of your posts, this one is absolute rubbish. Sounds like you were talking to a passerby, or yourself in the mirror, but not a mechanic.

How many people have to tell you the same thing before you listen?

Besides, what proof have you that the car wasn't sold to you in perfect condition and the change has happened since? Only a extemely unaware or bad driver could possibly not have noticed a car was rear wheel drive for so long or indeed during the test drive.

BostonB

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

That'd be very useful for detecting if a dishonest seller removed the front driveshaft to mask some other issue with the 4WD system before unloading it on an unsuspecting second hand buyer, all right.

I wonder why all makers don't fit them.

I assume you are being factitious. As obviously you could disable the warning. I meant if its a serious safety issue, you'd think there would be a warning for it. If you look on the web theres some indication of problems with the drive shafts coming loose, and problems with the lights indicating which mode your in. Theres some mention of a recall but I couldn't find details of it. Or more accurately got bored and stopped looking. I know nothing of 4x4's but I'd assume with any 4wd vehicle, checking out the drivetrain would be critical.

-Chris-

I'm surprised the traction control wasn't going bananas continuously if the car was this dangerously affected by the change in drivetrain.

Anyone have any expert opinions?

guil

the OP says some kia mechanic told him its FWD unless its 4WD, if that was the case ya woudnt be going anywhere no matter how hard ya pressed the accelerator, the diff would just spin