Poaching athletes

KeepOnRunning

I may get in trouble with moderators for this thread, but I have to bring up some poaching Clonliffe Harriers have done through the years to acquire athletes. High profile cases include the poaching of Mark Kenneally from Raheny Shamrock. This type of behaviour can't be allowed by AAI, it encourages clubs to become monopolies and with Clonliffe's landslide victories in the National League finals of recent years, this is becoming a reality.

BornToRun88

Yes im glad someone has something to say about this. Vast majority of Clonliffe athletes aren't bred by the club, just look at most of their athletes in the National League. I mean Brian Gregan joining them was the height of this and there are plenty of rumours about who's next on their list

TheRoadRunner

Yawn :cool:

clubcard

This comes up around this time on Boards every year.
regarding both athletes mentioned they where both being coached by John Shields at the time so maybe someone should point the finger at him???

Mark Kenneally might have been ''poached'' by Raheny if you look at Celbridge being his first club.

Brian Gregan I think joined Clonliffe after another Tallaght member joined also after some disagreements with coaches there.

I think Clonliffe is attractive to some athletes mainly because their clubhouse/coaches and having Santry as their track.
Aslo the opportunity to compete in Euro clubs x-country/track due to their success in the leagues and Nationals.

I don't agree with Clonliffe using Boit and some other athletes to make up teams and claim nationals from people who are from Ireland or Live here eg Sergui who deserves all the plaudits he gets.

BornToRun88

clubcard wrote: »

I think Clonliffe is attractive to some athletes mainly because their clubhouse/coaches and having Santry as their track.

Let's make one thing clear, Clonliffe don't have Santry as their track. It is the AAI's track.

TheRoadRunner

clubcard wrote: »

This comes up around this time on Boards every year

Only since leevale and other unmoderated sites disappeared.

clubcard

BornToRun88 wrote: »

Let's make one thing clear, Clonliffe don't have Santry as their track. It is the AAI's track.

Maybe im wrong on this but at the peak times when most clubs train 7 or 8pm Tue and Thursday Clonliffe have sole right to use the track.
So in a way this is a big attraction for an athlete to run on the National track.
AAI might own it but Clonliffe have first refusal:P

clubcard

Slightly of the topic here but while everyone is laying into Clonliffe does anyone know why AAI changed the format of the national title in the marathon this year?
From what I believe Sergui won the title but didnt recieve the money as he was told it was for first Irish man when last year he recieved it

clubcard

CLONLIFFE HARRIERS is ideally placed at the National Athletics Stadium in Santry.

Members can avail of:

• All weather track.
• Qualified coaches in all events.
• Physiotherapy service.
• Cash prizes for club championships.
• Scientific testing for our top athletes.
• Travelling, hotel accomodation and team entry fees paid for.
• Club house and Lounge Bar

KeepOnRunning

Listed some athletes there who are subject to Clonliffe poaching but having had my earlier post, as I suspected, edited, I have removed the names of the athletes so as not to get the ire of moderators. It's like Soviet Russia, can't talk about anything : (

BornToRun88

clubcard wrote: »

Maybe im wrong on this but at the peak times when most clubs train 7 or 8pm Tue and Thursday Clonliffe have sole right to use the track.
So in a way this is a big attraction for an athlete to run on the National track.
AAI might own it but Clonliffe have first refusal:P

You're actually correct. But Clonliffe don't own the track like people think and <name snipped> for one shouldn't be bossing others around, 'our time get off our track' etc.

<mod> Don't name people you're going to berate. Set up your own website and operate under defamation laws if you want to do that /<mod>

BornToRun88

Ah now c'mon moderators. Why can't we have a perfectly civil conversation which happens to talk merely about rumours. Doubt the snipped name is going to see this thread and sue Boards.ie. Anyone know other Irish athletic sites where we can talk freely without fear of persecution? Boards.ie=no fun:mad:

figs

BornToRun88 wrote: »

You're actually correct. But Clonliffe don't own the track like people think and <name snipped> for one shouldn't be bossing others around, 'our time get off our track' etc.

I'd imagine any club is entitled to exclusive use of a track during their scheduled training times if they've arranged the time for their sole use with the relevent authorities. In this case they would be entitled to exclude others during that period. Would be exactly the same arrangements as most football clubs will have at a local public pitch.

clubcard

I think both borntotalk and keepontalking both have issues with Clonliffe and rules.
I think sometimes clubs like Clonliffe are victims of their own success.
DSD would be the same,I have always heard how the athletes are over trained and this is from people who don't have a clue what a great job the coaches are doing there.

I find it intersting that keepontalking brings up thsi subject after onle 2 or three posts,maybe this person was banned before????

TheRoadRunner

BornToRun88 wrote: »

Anyone know other Irish athletic sites where we can talk freely without fear of persecution? Boards.ie=no fun:mad:

Translated as "is there anywhere a keyboard warrior like myself can post unfounded allegations and rumour yet stay anonymous"

The majority of forums that meet your criteria have been taken offline.

KeepOnRunning

Well because of moderation this topic hasn't really developed. People ain't being allowed to express their opinions. I expect this thread to be locked soon enough. Some democracy we live in.

BornToRun88

clubcard wrote: »

I think both borntotalk and keepontalking both have issues with Clonliffe and rules.
I think sometimes clubs like Clonliffe are victims of their own success.
DSD would be the same,I have always heard how the athletes are over trained and this is from people who don't have a clue what a great job the coaches are doing there.

You must be a Clonliffer clubcard

clubcard

did you not figure out people don't want to talk about this?
go find a new topic that will inspire people to run rather than acting like a clown.
Maybe offer someone on here new to the sport some advise.
Do something that doesn't bring other peoples names down to your level.

or maybe don't post at all unless you have somethign usefull to say:D

clubcard

BornToRun88 wrote: »

You must be a Clonliffer clubcard

What is a Clonliffer:D

BornToRun88

Fine let's have boring topics that don't go anywhere and are watched closely by mods, who act as if there is some sort of athletics police who will crucify us for the very mention of names.

I was gonna to say a sarcastic comment there but the mods would have probably edited it or banned me:mad:

clubcard

BornToRun88 wrote: »

Fine let's have boring topics that don't go anywhere and are watched closely by mods, who act as if there is some sort of athletics police who will crucify us for the very mention of names.

I was gonna to say a sarcastic comment there but the mods would have probably edited it or banned me:mad:

you sound like a spoilt child and im going to ZZZZZZZZZZZ
Nite Nite sweet pea;)

BornToRun88

clubcard wrote: »

you sound like a spoilt child and im going to ZZZZZZZZZZZ
Nite Nite sweet pea;)

being condescending doesn't suit you mate. Anyway, back to the main topic, I certainly hope the athletes KeepOnRunning mentioned don't end up at Clonliffe. Clonliffe are like the Man City of irish athletics, taking any possible talent!

nerraw1111

In a democracy, you can get sued.

Everyone is up for debate here but not on the basis of 'massive rumours' followed by unsubstantiated nonsense.

myflipflops

Are clonliffe contravening any AAI rules with anything they are doing?? If not, then what is your point?

I give guys like Gregan and Kenneally enough credit that they make choices in the interest of their athletic career. That's the most important thing here, not the success of clubs.

donothoponpop

mod We have to moderate and intervene when persons are named and defamed on Boards, thats a sitewide policy. Reason being, to stop that named individual from suing Boards. It might be a bit of slagging in your mind, but its not acceptable.

We (moderators) have gone to some lengths to extend this forum to athletic clubs, and increase the amount of threads about T&F issues. Invariably though, T&F threads descend into name-calling and slagging, and need to be moderated. Anyone who continues in this vein, will be banned, and we make no apologies for that. You can still have a bit of banter without overstepping defamation laws. Basically, if you want to name someone, you better be positive about what you say. Otherwise, make your point in a general term without identifying the person. /<mod>

thirtyfoot

I love this debate when it comes up. Borntorun, many clubs including your own will have athletes who come from other clubs. Your own two high hurdlers were 'poached' from clubs in Kerry and Roscommon!!! I don't see any problem in that, it's not really poaching. Kenneally was asked to run every mickey mouse road race and champs by Raheny. At Clonliffe he is asked to do maybe Inter-Clubs, Nat Lge, Euro Clubs and Nationals. After that there is no other obligation and he can focus on the races he wants. His move from Celbridge to Raheny to Clonliffe is no problem. Gregan is a natural move to Clonliffe. Trained with Clonliffe for 2/3 years before moving. Coach is Clonliffe, used Clonliffe time and facilities. As I said a natural choice.

There are many non-Clonliffe athletes who train with Clonliffe training groups. I'd say it's 40% among the sprinters etc. There is never a concerted effort to recruit these. Many will decide of their own mind to wish to move, some will be recommended by their coach at their country club to join Clonliffe while most will continue to train with the Clonliffe group and stay with their own club. I coach a Clonliffe group. 50% are non Clonliffe and will never transfer or will never be asked. How many clubs allow such large proportions of non club athletes train with them? Do the clubs of those complaining here have such an open policy where non-members can train with their club. In some ways it's probably to the detriment of the club that such resources are used on non-members.

As for the use of the track. It's a Sports Campus track. Clonliffe are a tenant. They are seeped in the history of the place. Use of the track is very organised this year with clubs all having their own slot.

Condo131

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Only since leevale and other unmoderated sites disappeared.

Shock! :eek: Horror! :eek: Leevale being mentioned on a poaching thread! :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
I believe that the AAI Cork County Board are discussing this very topic wrt to Leevale, on Wednesday....expect a heated discussion!

jailhouse_dave

thirtyfoot wrote: »

I love this debate when it comes up. Borntorun, many clubs including your own will have athletes who come from other clubs. Your own two high hurdlers were 'poached' from clubs in Kerry and Roscommon!!! I don't see any problem in that, it's not really poaching. Kenneally was asked to run every mickey mouse road race and champs by Raheny. At Clonliffe he is asked to do maybe Inter-Clubs, Nat Lge, Euro Clubs and Nationals. After that there is no other obligation and he can focus on the races he wants. His move from Celbridge to Raheny to Clonliffe is no problem. Gregan is a natural move to Clonliffe. Trained with Clonliffe for 2/3 years before moving. Coach is Clonliffe, used Clonliffe time and facilities. As I said a natural choice.

There are many non-Clonliffe athletes who train with Clonliffe training groups. I'd say it's 40% among the sprinters etc. There is never a concerted effort to recruit these. Many will decide of their own mind to wish to move, some will be recommended by their coach at their country club to join Clonliffe while most will continue to train with the Clonliffe group and stay with their own club. I coach a Clonliffe group. 50% are non Clonliffe and will never transfer or will never be asked. How many clubs allow such large proportions of non club athletes train with them? Do the clubs of those complaining here have such an open policy where non-members can train with their club. In some ways it's probably to the detriment of the club that such resources are used on non-members.

As for the use of the track. It's a Sports Campus track. Clonliffe are a tenant. They are seeped in the history of the place. Use of the track is very organised this year with clubs all having their own slot.

well explained, all fair points and a lot of positives i didnt know about clonliffe, perhaps your calling is PRO. fair play to the club for putting on Dub senior XC at the weekend, nice job all round.

Hard Worker

clubcard wrote: »

Slightly of the topic here but while everyone is laying into Clonliffe does anyone know why AAI changed the format of the national title in the marathon this year?
From what I believe Sergui won the title but didnt recieve the money as he was told it was for first Irish man when last year he recieved it

The AAI award Championship medals for the National Marathon, not cash, so I don't know where you heard that.
Sergiu also won the title last year and there is no change this year.

BornToRun88

Im getting sick of this thread. People seem to just be happy to say it's alright what Clonliffe is doing and give it some sort of silver lining like there is nothing wrong with it at all.

thirtyfoot

BornToRun88 wrote: »

Im getting sick of this thread. People seem to just be happy to say it's alright what Clonliffe is doing and give it some sort of silver lining like there is nothing wrong with it at all.

You complain debate isn't allowed on this due to excessive moderation. I enter a rational explanation to points raised and your sick of the thread. Let's continue the debate:

1. Are you happy that in 2009 66% of the medal won by your club at senior t&f came from as you would call them poached athletes?

2. Does you club allow non-club members train with their coaches? If so, what % would you estimate?

3. Let's look at other sports. Big clubs like Bohs for example, how many of their players are born and bred bohs?

4. Let's play out a scenario. Athlete comes to a club and says I wantbto join your club or even just train with your coaches. Do you say no because they weren't juvenile members of your club?

If you want to debate, let's debate.

clubcard

Hard Worker wrote: »

The AAI award Championship medals for the National Marathon, not cash, so I don't know where you heard that.
Sergiu also won the title last year and there is no change this year.

Sorry Hardworker but you are incorrect.1000EURO for first Irishman home.
I actually agree with Joe being given it but I think to give Sergui it last year and not this year was abit strange.
there was also a cash bonus of a sub 2.20 of 750euros.
AAI award medals but Dublin marathon award the cash.

downthemiddle

People can complain all they like but until a club breaks the rules there is nothing that can be done about it. People can say what they like about Clonliffe but unless you have proof of any wrongdoing I fail to see the validity of your point. There are many clubs that have benefitted from transfers.Name a club that would decline an approach from a talented athlete.

There is a distinct possibility that our junior woman's team for the upcoming European cross country championships will have two athletes on it who, at this point, have run one race each in Ireland. Are the AAI poaching English athletes? Are Lagan Valley and Donore poaching? Or are these athletes searching for their best opportunity of international recognition? Personally I don't agree with it as it deprives athletes who have come up through the ranks of their opportunity but that is the system and it can be argued that it raises the standard for all our athletes.

IrishTrackFan1

There are some very strong opinions on this topic and Clonliffe seems to bear the brunt of them for some reason. Probably its the price you pay when you are the National Cross Country Champs and the National League Champs also - Mens of course in each case.
I think that there is not a lot can or should be done about it. There is a conflict of interest question with one of the coaches who has access through his 'day job' to a lot of talented athletes and it seems to be the case that a good number of the better ones of those end up in Clonliffe. Contrast that with how Phil Conway shares out the Belvo crew (ok Crusaders will get some preference).
That aside though its hard to say what should be done by us non-Clonliffers.
If I was in Clonliffe though I would question whether the wholesale importation of foreign talent to keep the National Cross Country trophy in the cabinet is in the club's interest. A Schools' winning team from St. Aidan's of a couple of years ago doesn't seem to have kicked on at all to the next level within the club and I wonder is that related to the artificial blockage at the top. Sometimes short term success leads to problems in the long term.

Getonwithit

The question is does the athlete benefit or not? Clubs dont own athletes, coaches dont own them either. If an athlete makes a move for athletic reasons I have no problem with that. There are of course example, anecdotally, of athletes being induced to change club. That doesnt change the efforts required or dedication given by these individual athletes. Its when I see clubs hunting out athletes and then not treating or training them properly that I get angry. I am not sure if that has been the case in Clonliffe esp with the names mentioned. Ultimately we are too small an interest to tear ourselves apart over politics, not that we dont do that sadly.

Condo131

downthemiddle wrote: »

Name a club that would decline an approach from a talented athlete.

For me, this is the crux of the argument. (btw, I have no idea or comment on what is happening in Dublin (or elsewhere) circles, however,here in Cork, we have what appears to be 'open season' by one club)

I have no problem whatsoever with any adult athlete approaching another club, with a view to transferring.

I have a major problem when it comes to a club, or club official, approaching an athlete without solicitation from that athlete. I am gravely concerned when, over a short period of time, a club approaches a large number of athletes from several rival clubs.

My club, along with several other clubs in Cork, actively recruits new members all the time. There is however a general rule that active athletes are not approached, i.e. if someone is registered with a club and requires a transfer, then they are NOT approached. Full stop.

Imho, it is a matter of honour, ethics and integrity. If you haven't got these, then there's something wrong with the sport. Thankfully, in my experience, most clubs do have these traits.

BornToRun88

thirtyfoot wrote: »

You complain debate isn't allowed on this due to excessive moderation. I enter a rational explanation to points raised and your sick of the thread. Let's continue the debate:

1. Are you happy that in 2009 66% of the medal won by your club at senior t&f came from as you would call them poached athletes?

2. Does you club allow non-club members train with their coaches? If so, what % would you estimate?

3. Let's look at other sports. Big clubs like Bohs for example, how many of their players are born and bred bohs?

4. Let's play out a scenario. Athlete comes to a club and says I wantbto join your club or even just train with your coaches. Do you say no because they weren't juvenile members of your club?

If you want to debate, let's debate.

To address your debating

1. Yes I am of that but in all fairness, the hurdler from Kerry wasn't exactly poached as he was out of athletics for years and wasn't at the height of his athletics career joining Raheny to the extent Gregan was when he joined Clonliffe. Ciaran O' Cathain joined the club as he is in college in Dublin much to the same extent John Fagan joined Clonliffe, which isn't poaching. So your figure of 66% of our medalists in 2009 being poached is highly incorrect.

2. Yes Raheny does let non-club members train with them at all distances and disciplines in fact. Don't know the percentage but why does that matter????

3. Other sports and particular professional sports clubs like Bohs are different because they have proper finances and engage in transfer windows to buy players. Unlike Clonliffe, an amateur club with no finances to that scale, even withstanding the fact Bohs are particularly skint as of now.

4. And yes I agree with your scenario but that's not often the case with Clonliffe simply wanting the best athletes and will do anything in it's path to get them

You asked for a debate and just got your ass handed to you!

thirtyfoot

Borntorun - sorry I thought you wanted debate which was why I engaged you. Didn't know we were going to be ass whupping each other, I typically reserve that to the track much like all my clubmates!!!

Interesting points on what you regard poaching. I think condo's description of poaching, ie, juveniles, is what would be regarded as poaching. The situations you complain about are grown adults making decisions for their own benefit. You seem to miss my point as to why Gregan and Kenneally moved. You rationale is that they must be of a certain standard for it to be regarded poaching. I think that is convenient for you. The hurdlers I mention that transferred to your club would in someone elses eyes be poaching. Your club are on the receiving in so you don't see it as such. Anyway, as I said, no problems with people moving clubs.

Fair play on your club allowing non club members. As to why it matters, again you seem to miss my point that Clonliffe have many non members who train with them yet they don't poach. International standard athletes, national champs etc, the type that if they did move you would regard as poaching yet it's not on the agenda with these people.

Re football, is the point not the same. If LoI was amateur, and Bohs or Rovers were the top teams, would the best players in the country want to play for the best team, ie Bohs, Rovers, Clonliffe etc. Are you saying young Irish footballers join Bohs for the money and not to be playing at the top of the game in Ireland so as to further their career.

As to the final point, what evidence do you have regarding this outside of the lads at training telling you anecdotally.

Bottom line, it's natural the best athletes want to join the best clubs. Clubs need to put systems in place with coaches and facilities and support that attract the top athletes. Why don't the best athletes wish to join your club? Have you ever wondered that? Would you love some 48 sec men to train with instead of slogging with the MD guys? Your club are putting great structures in place that will probably really reap benefits in 5-10 years. When it does and athletes are joining your club due to the great service it can offer, people may be on here crying 'poaching, poaching'. As irishtrackfan says, it's no big deal. It furthers the sport if best athletes are at best clubs.

BornToRun88

thirtyfoot wrote: »

Borntorun - sorry I thought you wanted debate which was why I engaged you. Didn't know we were going to be ass whupping each other, I typically reserve that to the track much like all my clubmates!!!

Interesting points on what you regard poaching. I think condo's description of poaching, ie, juveniles, is what would be regarded as poaching. The situations you complain about are grown adults making decisions for their own benefit. You seem to miss my point as to why Gregan and Kenneally moved. You rationale is that they must be of a certain standard for it to be regarded poaching. I think that is convenient for you. The hurdlers I mention that transferred to your club would in someone elses eyes be poaching. Your club are on the receiving in so you don't see it as such. Anyway, as I said, no problems with people moving clubs.

Fair play on your club allowing non club members. As to why it matters, again you seem to miss my point that Clonliffe have many non members who train with them yet they don't poach. International standard athletes, national champs etc, the type that if they did move you would regard as poaching yet it's not on the agenda with these people.

Re football, is the point not the same. If LoI was amateur, and Bohs or Rovers were the top teams, would the best players in the country want to play for the best team, ie Bohs, Rovers, Clonliffe etc. Are you saying young Irish footballers join Bohs for the money and not to be playing at the top of the game in Ireland so as to further their career.

As to the final point, what evidence do you have regarding this outside of the lads at training telling you anecdotally.

Bottom line, it's natural the best athletes want to join the best clubs. Clubs need to put systems in place with coaches and facilities and support that attract the top athletes. Why don't the best athletes wish to join your club? Have you ever wondered that? Would you love some 48 sec men to train with instead of slogging with the MD guys? Your club are putting great structures in place that will probably really reap benefits in 5-10 years. When it does and athletes are joining your club due to the great service it can offer, people may be on here crying 'poaching, poaching'. As irishtrackfan says, it's no big deal. It furthers the sport if best athletes are at best clubs.

Taking an athlete who has not been in the sport for years and is not attached to a club is not poaching.And <Mod snip, no need to name> joining the club is the fact he is in college in Dublin and that's not poaching, more convenience for him. Much to the same extent <Mod snip, no need to name> joined Clonliffe.
<Mod edit, no rumours>
I can understand non clonliffe athletes training with Clonliffe as long as they're not being slowly enticed to join Clonliffe.
You can't compare football when it's if, buts and maybes. Not LOI football when clubs are professional and the main motive to switch between clubs is job security, playing prospects and possible European football. Maybe you could state the best wanting to play for the best in a Leinster Senior League scenario, that I can agree with as long as there's no poaching and everything was done in honesty.

I don't have evidence, I haven't just heard this from the people at training. Coaches and even people in the AAI are talking about this.

To answer your fourth point, the truth is Raheny is a slightly conservative club in that many of the people who are in the club started with the club and are still there or are in the club because of relations like the Corcorans, the Giblins and the Hoopers. I don't agree with your point that it furthers the sport if the best athletes are at the best club, well regarding the league and cross country anyway, meaning a monopoly for one club to dominate. Perhaps a system should be put in place where athletes are only allowed to compete in the league if they've been with the club for at least 2 years to avoid clubs simply signing up athletes for one race and they never turn up again, like the way Welsh 400m runner Tom Miller ran for Menapians in the National League 400m.

and thirtyfoot......I sense you know my true identity

Condo131

thirtyfoot wrote: »

It furthers the sport if best athletes are at best clubs.

I totally and fundamentally disagree with this. Far from furthering the sport - It actually stifles competition!

Competition is the lifeblood of the sport. If competition is to be curtailed by having "the best athletes at the best clubs", then, in the long run, everyone loses. In the meantime, sure, there's glory for some......But long term, imho, it's counterproductive.

Edit; btw, who decides what a "best club" is? Best athlete can be clearly judged by competition results. Best club is far more difficult to judge. Is it because they're the biggest (doesn't necessarily follow) or the most successful (lots of 'home grown' talent or is it that they have brought in/attracted/whatever lots of athletes from other clubs) or the best coaches (the best coaches don't necessarily have the best athletes) or what. IMHO, 'Best Club@ is a very subjective measure.

BornToRun88

Condo131 wrote: »

I totally and fundamentally disagree with this. Far from furthering the sport - It actually stifles competition!

Competition is the lifeblood of the sport. If competition is to be curtailed by having "the best athletes at the best clubs", then, in the long run, everyone loses. In the meantime, sure, there's glory for some......But long term, imho, it's counterproductive.

Edit; btw, who decides what a "best club" is? Best athlete can be clearly judged by competition results. Best club is far more difficult to judge. Is it because they're the biggest (doesn't necessarily follow) or the most successful (lots of 'home grown' talent or is it that they have brought in/attracted/whatever lots of athletes from other clubs) or the best coaches (the best coaches don't necessarily have the best athletes) or what. IMHO, 'Best Club@ is a very subjective measure.

Thank you Condo, finally someone I can agree with on this thread and sees the wrong of Clonliffe's ways

BornToRun88

For crying out loud mods, you edited me again on my second last post. First and foremost they are not rumours and are facts. Second they are being spoken in a way that does not offend when it's fact and Im acknowledging that it's fact. Do you mods know anything about athletics?

Woddle

BornToRun88 wrote: »

For crying out loud mods, you edited me again on my second last post. First and foremost they are not rumours and are facts. Second they are being spoken in a way that does not offend when it's fact and Im acknowledging that it's fact. Do you mods know anything about athletics?

I can't say that I do know alot about the running of other clubs. If there not rumours produce the proof. Also have a read of the charter in full.

BornToRun88

Woddle wrote: »

I can't say that I do know alot about the running of other clubs. If there not rumours produce the proof. Also have a read of the charter in full.

I did not make any rumours in that post and if you don't believe that the snipped names don't compete for the clubs I mentioned here are links to the first snip, http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/national-senior-tf-results-09.pdf, and the second snipped name, http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?p=13576. Btw, you know the names

Woddle

BornToRun88 wrote: »

I did not make any rumours in that post and if you don't believe that the snipped names don't compete for the clubs I mentioned here are links to the first snip, http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/national-senior-tf-results-09.pdf, and the second snipped name, http://www.athleticsireland.ie/content/?p=13576. Btw, you know the names

That's not what you were referring to in the rumour I snipped.
No point debating with me as I'm not really interested in the issue.

thirtyfoot

BornToRun88 wrote: »

I don't have evidence, I haven't just heard this from the people at training.

As I suspected.

BornToRun88 wrote: »

Coaches and even people in the AAI are talking about this.

What coaches? What people in AAI?

My last point on your anti-Clonliffe sentiment as its going around in circles, Kenneally moved to Clonliffe ages ago and before that moved from Celbridge to Raheny. Gregan's move to Clonliffe is as organic and natural as it gets. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge of the situation will admit that. Next time you are in Santry training, ask Gregan his side of the story.

thirtyfoot

Condo131 wrote: »

I totally and fundamentally disagree with this. Far from furthering the sport - It actually stifles competition!

Competition is the lifeblood of the sport. If competition is to be curtailed by having "the best athletes at the best clubs", then, in the long run, everyone loses. In the meantime, sure, there's glory for some......But long term, imho, it's counterproductive.

Edit; btw, who decides what a "best club" is? Best athlete can be clearly judged by competition results. Best club is far more difficult to judge. Is it because they're the biggest (doesn't necessarily follow) or the most successful (lots of 'home grown' talent or is it that they have brought in/attracted/whatever lots of athletes from other clubs) or the best coaches (the best coaches don't necessarily have the best athletes) or what. IMHO, 'Best Club@ is a very subjective measure.

Let me explain myself as we have had this debate before and I respect your opinion on the matter and its not some parochial skirmish (altough athletics politics in Cork is one big parochial skirmish;)) that motivates you on the topic.

When I say best club I mean at senior level. They will have the best coaches (who I believe will be the best coaches because they have coached the best athletes and made them the best athletes), best facilities, best training groups etc. Now if we are serious about wanting the talent at the top of our sport to be maximised, (I'm talking national senior final standard) then we need more of these athletes training together. At nationals, medals are spread across 40 or so clubs. That in some ways in good, but its also bad as the limited coaching talent is spread too thinly. Right now we have maybe 3 or 4 properly functioning clubs with a broad range of coaches across all events (I probably don't include my own club in there). There are then maybe 15-20 what I'll call half-arsed clubs, they are good in one area and sh8te in the rest. There are then maybe 20 clubs who have one good athlete who do their own thing. So, we have loads of athletes floating around with a) nobody to train with in their club and b) nobody to coach them in their club. They invariably lose interest and give up.

When I say its best athletes at the best clubs its with this in mind. Instead of 3-4 good, 15-20 half-arsed and 20 sh8te clubs, I'd prefer to see 15-20 good and then end of, no other clubs. LIke the provincial setup in rugby, our most successfull sport in terms of growth, professionalism and entertainment in recent years. It has realy 4 centres of excellence called Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht. Heavily controlled by IRFU but with autonomy and fiercely competitive with each other and internationally.

Thats my point. At underage, keep the masses of clubs but when they get to junior/senior they need to be funnelled to train with the best athletes and coaches. Having 20-30 half-arsed clubs won't facilitate that. Thats why when I hear of an athlete moving to a good club (or at least to an half-arsed club), I always think its good for the athlete. First question in these instances from the club who has lost an athlete is what did their new club have that I didn't? It would be interesting to ask any athlete who has ever transferred that question and see what their response would be.

RoyMcC

Couldn't agree more thirtyfoot and it's something we've discussed in the past on here. Your take on the existing setup seems accurate (and you're certainly nearer the action than I am at present). Outside the very top athletes, and with the exception of middle distance, the standards being achieved do leave much to be desired.

The gravitation of the best athletes and the best coaches to a number of 'super clubs' (if you like) would surely maximise potential. Condo, there would be a higher and more intense level of competition, albeit between fewer clubs.

It would be up to the clubs outside the top echelon to either (1) be content to be a feeder club and a developer of young athletes or (2) to aspire to be a 'super club' and to put in place the facilities and to attract the better coaches to offer the future that senior athletes ought to be aspiring to.

The pity is all the talk seems to be here on Boards. I hope I'm wrong and that the same debates are taking place at a higher level.

IrishTrackFan1

RoyMcC wrote: »

Couldn't agree more thirtyfoot and it's something we've discussed in the past on here. Your take on the existing setup seems accurate (and you're certainly nearer the action than I am at present). Outside the very top athletes, and with the exception of middle distance, the standards being achieved do leave much to be desired.

The gravitation of the best athletes and the best coaches to a number of 'super clubs' (if you like) would surely maximise potential. Condo, there would be a higher and more intense level of competition, albeit between fewer clubs.

It would be up to the clubs outside the top echelon to either (1) be content to be a feeder club and a developer of young athletes or (2) to aspire to be a 'super club' and to put in place the facilities and to attract the better coaches to offer the future that senior athletes ought to be aspiring to.

The pity is all the talk seems to be here on Boards. I hope I'm wrong and that the same debates are taking place at a higher level.

I think this is getting to the nub of the matter. A viable club structure for the country needs to be designed and then sold to the clubs. There are never going to be enough coaches to coach all events at all levels in all clubs. So there needs to be some mechanism to join clubs together so that there is a pathway for athletes (and coaches too) through the ranks. Whether that is a provincial structure, a county board structure or something else is up for debate. Its not a trivial problem to solve but I would be sure there is no AAI level engagement with this issue any more than there is with the issue of competition structures.

Condo131

thirtyfoot wrote: »

...................(altough athletics politics in Cork is one big parochial skirmish;)) ................

Well, whatever about before yesterday...it is now! Dunno about the parochial bit....'parochial' could just as easily be applied to 'Clonliffe Vs the rest' debate. :rolleyes:

As of last night, the AAI Cork County Board decided, at a meeting of the Board, to formally investigate the 'transfer' of a number of athletes, registered members of St Finbarr's AC, to Leevale AC. They were and still are, registered with St. Finbarr's AC, though one is now running as 'Unattached'. Leevale are to be called before a formal Board of Enquiry, to explain their conduct.

The issue arises from two St. Finbarr's AC registered athletes running in Leevale colours in the recent Munster Novice Championships. Apparently different spellings and dates of birth were used in re-registering the athletes. (In the AAI on-line registration system, you cannot register someone twice). It was pointed out at the meeting that the original registration information may not be correct, so that is also included in the scope of the enquiry.

A large number of athletes registered with several other clubs have, in recent times, been approached to join and there was a lot of controlled anger at the way that a particular club could be so disrespectful to other clubs. It was also pointed out, at the meeting, that there has been an ongoing issue with juvenile athletes being approached, in what those present felt, to be an 'inappropriate fashion'.

It reflects very poorly on the honour and integrity of a club when it unilaterally views all other clubs as feeders for their own, approaching large numbers of athletes.

BornToRun88

thirtyfoot wrote: »

As I suspected.



What coaches? What people in AAI?

My last point on your anti-Clonliffe sentiment as its going around in circles, Kenneally moved to Clonliffe ages ago and before that moved from Celbridge to Raheny. Gregan's move to Clonliffe is as organic and natural as it gets. Anyone with an ounce of knowledge of the situation will admit that. Next time you are in Santry training, ask Gregan his side of the story.

You know thirty foot, I can't name these people because the boards mods will delete them. I know full well who they are and what their opinions are. Both those transfers were not as you say 'organic and natural' when they were contacted well in advance without their respective clubs' permission. I don't intend to ask Gregan his 'side of the story' because I won't believe him. It's seems you will use any tripe to defend the callous actions of Clonliffe Harriers in poaching athletes and ruining honesty and integrity in Irish athletics